Zombie apocalypse: what really goes down?

[Coidzor]

No, depending on the specifics, a break that woul kill or incapacitate a human can remain semi function strictly due to muscular action.

It should still wear down and worsen, but you've disabled the whole zombies will break their bodies down further as a natural consequence of being zombies.

Why would a zombie need to be an Olympic traceur?

That's what you were coming off as saying, mostly.

This just confirms that people are reading responses to me as my own words.

Please quote where zombies are assumed to be physically superhuman?

So you're not saying they're able to run super fast without tripping, falling, or damaging themselves when they do while also being stronger than a human because they don't have human limitations to prevent us from damaging ourselves but they don't also damage themselves when they do it?

this thread is based on my premise that there would be a reaction. Why would I think there wouldn't?

You were just chastising us for assuming there'd be a reaction, weren't you?

Something about "this is zero hour, what do" is being lost in translation here. Yes, given enough time everything will be solved. You do not have that time. This is the start of the clock. You know nothing. You feel you need to do something. What do you do? Honestly, at this point you're just picking things apart because you can.

I suppose I'd start cleaning the guns, taking stock of my tools and materials, and fortifying my position with various impediments that would slow or immobilize whatever was left of a zombie after going through rough country. Possibly also create a series of roadblocks to discourage people from driving down the roads nearby until services are restored. Even just felling a sizeable tree into the road should discourage all but the most hardcore looters and also slow zombies to a significant extent without proving to be a significant impediment to military forces.

[Bulldog Psion]

From my viewpoint, what I would do if I saw a zombie shambling along the road outside. I'm assuming here that I'm not just ambushed and killed, because that means I wouldn't be doing anything. Other than shambling, maybe.

1. Call the police and tell them there's a bizarre-acting person out on the sidewalk, possibly on drugs or seriously ill in some way.

2. Get my rifle down and put bullets in it, just in case, and then set it on the table within easy reach, if I was disturbed enough at the person's appearance.

3. Watch the odd person, preferably without revealing my presence.

4. Wait for the police to show up and see what happens, because I'm cursed with curiosity. I'd probably see the zombie charge them and get mowed down.

5. Try to find out what happened.

6. Go about my business until I saw other signs of infestation.

7. As soon as I realized it was a "thing," I would place my rifle in my van, collect my wife, and drive to the store and buy a lot of food. I would also buy a couple water filters and fill my gas tank.

8. Return home, start looking on the Internet and making phone calls to determine what was happening. Door would be locked; curtains drawn; if I was alarmed enough, I would probably try to find time to nail boards across the windows (my cellar is full of spare boards) at about 6" intervals to slow or stop anything trying to break in.

9. If the situation in the city appeared to be heading south in any way, I would depart and go to my parents' home way out in the country. In a little town where everybody knows each other and everyone has guns.

10. If the situation wasn't that alarming, I'd go around checking on the other people in the neighborhood, and try to talk them into setting up some sort of system for mutual support. Perhaps moving more vulnerable people into other people's houses temporarily, or doubling up for safety in larger homes.

11. Keep an eye out; shoot anything that shambled; communicate any and all valuable information to the authorities quickly and accurately; play it by ear when to stay and when to attempt a departure, if necessary.

12. If I realized that ALL the dead rose fairly fast as zombies, I would try to get people to list all the seriously ill and very old people in the neighborhood. And then go around and check on them daily. Not alone. And armed. A bit grim and morbid, but likely to forestall, ah, surprises.

Now, I would be creeped out as all heck. But I know that in a crisis, people who panic often die, and people who act thoughtfully and keep control of themselves often live. I would attempt to instill this in the other people in the neighborhood also.

That's how it would "go down" in my tiny castle, anyway.

[SiuiS]

It should still wear down and worsen, but you've disabled the whole zombies will break their bodies down further as a natural consequence of being zombies.

That's really less my disabling anything and more how they are shown to work. Otherwise how would you have the things still around, hale and hardy, fifty years down the road?

I explicitly listed it because otherwise I have to deal with smart Alecs saying "despite zombies being animated corpses, there is absolutely nothing going on that prevents them from just grinding to dust in days because science!" And dropping their mic. That's self evidently wrong, considering.

So you're not saying they're able to run super fast without tripping, falling, or damaging themselves when they do while also being stronger than a human because they don't have human limitations to prevent us from damaging ourselves but they don't also damage themselves when they do it?

Ignoring pain is one thing; yeah there's a lot you could do if you weren't worried about straining yourself. That's not superhuman in any way, though.

Running?
No tripping ever?
Quotes, please. I've said 'power walk'. But again, this is mostly pointing out the obvious. And again, it's so people will think about the human reaction instead of disassembling the zombie problem.

You were just chastising us for assuming there'd be a reaction, weren't you?

No, sir. I was saying there would be a reaction, stop glossing over it and saying 'we'll win eventually so who cares, zombies are dumb'.

If it's a language screw up in my part, show me. I would like to fix it before I confuse anyone else.


The rest, I'm not sure how much you're just getting my goat. You're making the step from 'this scenario is absurd' (it is!) to 'you're absurd' and I'm reacting to that. It's probably a relic of your speech patterns and I'm being over sensitive. Sorry.

[BeerMug Paladin]

It's been a while since I've replied here, but I actually do have something to add.

Considering that the sheer existence of zombies is by itself a drastic violation of physical forces, I think it would be somewhat erroneous to be very confident about their nature or their abilities, or the consequences of their existence. Even about things which seem like they ought to be a given.

After all, the only thing we could know for certain is that something very wrong is happening.

I'll grant that the common depiction of zombies don't generally portray anything deeper about physical reality being broken or wrong. They just present zombies as more or less an immediate threat to be combated in an up front fashion. But their mere existence should indicate something about one's knowledge is very broken. And in this case, the unknown could easily kill you if you make an assumption you have no reason to make.

In terms of society, what this would mean is that culture would experience a shift in viewpoint similar to what the advent of quantum mechanics and relativity theory did for the public consciousness. Those were big deals because they fundamentally changed our understanding of the universe and ourselves in relation to it. And once scientists begin to investigate this new phenomenon in greater detail, a similar thing would occur. What exactly that cultural shift is depends on what it could imply in the public perception.

In the more immediate, this aspect could wind up with having some people make what they think is a reasonable assumption about the zombies that there is absolutely no reason to think is true. (IE, that they would 'obviously' decay after a few days to non-functionality.) If their assertion winds up being false, it could lead to a decision which causes their own death.

I imagine some people/regions might generally have better initial guesses at the nature of the threat, correctly deal with it on such terms, and be better off for it. These places would be bastions of research and learning compared to worse hit regions. They would deal with the problem on a local level, then potentially deal with it on a regional/global level.

In places with unsuccessful initial strategies, nerds smart enough to realize this sort of thing is an issue would probably get pummeled until they shut up, or just die. Science philosophy is kind of irritating, complicated and boring. Fear is universal, simplicity is calming, and dissent is often dangerous in such circumstances. The right kind of charismatic leader can/(often does) take advantage of fear to gain power for their own ends in such situations. (Which is essentially a major theme of the genre of fiction.)

On a related note, depicting how large scale societies and large groups would respond is usually glossed over, probably because nobody has a very thorough idea of how it would play out in reality. That's a pretty difficult thing to concieve. But I suspect it's also partly to avoid potentially offending political sensibilites (since how nations make decisions on a large scale is pretty much what politics is, an honest attempt to depict this could easily come across as preachy and offensive).

But various cultures/societies would probably all try different strategies and techniques. Undoubtedly, some would work better than others, and the successful tactics would spread to other regions depending on the modes of communication still available. For this reason, I think people would fairly rapidly arrive at the best way of handling the zombie menace (given their particular needs), given the specific rules of the outbreak. And that's something you'll know about your own rules more than I would know.

With a global information network, I imagine most of these differences in initial conditions would be ironed out on a scale of days or weeks as opposed to months or years. Probably the worst places to be would be places where the communication networks go down within the first few days (or never existed in the first place), either due to other natural disasters, or because of unforeseen human error. Those are the kinds of things that aren't predictable, and such issues might delay things improving in those regions for months or years before some semblence of order is restored.

I realize I'm once again giving generalities and not particulars, but I approach this question in this way because I think it would be an inherently unpredictable situation. I think that a tremendous amount of diversity would happen in the way people approach this scenario, so the particulars of what actually would happen (small scale and short term) could justifiably be almost anything. I will try to give some particulars for my own behavior though. Assuming I am within a less well off area.

1) Hide. End strategem.

2) Be amazed if any of those people I know that would, "Totally come get me, specifically, to help rebuild civilization with my awesome smarts" came to actually get me.

3), given 2) Probably become a really terrible ad-hoc mechanical engineer. And help build fortifications, repair power sources, phone lines, construct weapons, work on cars. Whatever may be needed/wanted at the moment.

4), given 3) I imagine I would be eventually desensitized to the violence and insanity of everything. I'd probably start doing mad science on the zombies in the sheer hope that I could discover something useful/interesting. Crazy hair/costume optional.

[veti]

I'll grant that the common depiction of zombies don't generally portray anything deeper about physical reality being broken or wrong. They just present zombies as more or less an immediate threat to be combated in an up front fashion. But their mere existence should indicate something about one's knowledge is very broken. And in this case, the unknown could easily kill you if you make an assumption you have no reason to make.

I think this is really quite insightful, and an area we haven't touched on yet. And I think you're underestimating it:

In terms of society, what this would mean is that culture would experience a shift in viewpoint similar to what the advent of quantum mechanics and relativity theory did for the public consciousness. Those were big deals because they fundamentally changed our understanding of the universe and ourselves in relation to it.

They were big deals for people who were interested in fundamental physics, but not so much for the other 97% of the population. The great majority may have been dimly aware of the geeky ones getting all excited and confused, but it would be years or decades before the shift filtered through into anything that could really be called "public consciousness". And to this day, most people still neither know nor care why these things matter.

Zombies would be rather more intrusive than that.

I would predict a lot of people pinning a lot of hope on medical science developing a "cure". As the months went by, and story after story broke about how they completely failed to identify any kind of "infection", many people - very likely, including many scientists - would begin to lose their faith in the power of "science" to answer questions, and I can imagine a major religious revival. (Obviously that would begin to happen immediately, but I can imagine it gaining a lot of momentum as the story went on and on.)

How that would work out - would have something to do with the nature of existing religions in that society. The danger would be charismatic, evil people. In some places, which I won't name because that would take me too close to Forbidden Topics, the religious establishment is already well loaded with people like that, who could do some very unpleasant things with a crisis like this; in others, the religious establishment is old and tired and tame, and anyone with an ounce of ambition doesn't go near it, so they'd be in opposition to people like that.

[BeerMug Paladin]

They were big deals for people who were interested in fundamental physics, but not so much for the other 97% of the population. The great majority may have been dimly aware of the geeky ones getting all excited and confused, but it would be years or decades before the shift filtered through into anything that could really be called "public consciousness". And to this day, most people still neither know nor care why these things matter.

Zombies would be rather more intrusive than that.

I was more referring to the long term impact and its cultural relevance. Most of the cultural impact of relativity/quantum mechanics isn't directly felt. It was first communicated by scientists and mathematicians, then later generations expanded on it via philosophers and engineers, then eventually by writers and artists. By the time it reaches the last stages, the message is less precisely accurate, but the approach is still largely about addressing the concepts' meaning and implications to everyday humans.

Although I do agree the whole process here would both be much faster and directly impact a much broader segment of society. But that's because as a paradigm shift, it's happening to everyone, and not just a select few elites.

I would predict a lot of people pinning a lot of hope on medical science developing a "cure". As the months went by, and story after story broke about how they completely failed to identify any kind of "infection", many people - very likely, including many scientists - would begin to lose their faith in the power of "science" to answer questions...

Whether or not science and rigorous logical study could be capable of learning more may or may not be up for question (as this really depends on the rules of the setting as determined by the author). But I do agree that in general, the public has an overwhelming confidence that science will solve all the problems. When a charlatan has bunk to promote, it's usually couched in vaguely science sounding terms for this exact reason.

As for what would happen "in reality", well, I happen to hold the philosophical position that the fundamental rules of science hold in (almost) any universe concievable. So, if I were writing the story, science would still work to reflect that attitude. It just might not tell us something we could make immediate use of. Science may be able to investigate any meaningful question, but that doesn't mean it will always produce a functionally useful answer.

The stuff about society experiencing a resurgence of interest in the mystical. Well, people of all eras (and backgrounds) have enjoyed having easy answers to difficult quandries. If science can't provide a simple enough context to cope with such a threat and an alternative viewpoint could, I suspect the alternative could gain some notability and renewed interest for that reason.

And if science were providing an easy answer, it's probably likely just bunk being peddled by an aforementioned charlatan. Remember, just because someone highly regards science, doesn't mean they could necessarily recognize when something isn't actually founded in science. This seems to be another possibility other than consciously abandoning science in general, and this possibility is kind of interesting to me.

[Tyndmyr]

I mostly recall ones whose clothing has been torn up by what lead to them getting caught by the other zombies and turned in the first place and guys in torn up funerary clothing that was dirty from bashing through their coffin, clawing out of their cement vault, and then digging their way to the surface.

Walking Dead, I suppose, would be one such example. Zombies routinely look pretty jacked up. Clothing tends to be pretty horrible. Survivors apparently have time to shave and tend their hair and so forth. Hell, a lot of zombies just sort of chill while waiting for victims, providing a standard mark 1 jump scare, but look more bedraggled than the survivors that have been doing crazy stuff for hours of screen time.

It's just kind of an odd genre quirk.

Okay, cool. The question you're answering is "how do people react to a zombie threat" though. The threat is implied to beenoughto provoke a reaction. That's the basic premise.

But...the threat as assumed does not match the stated scenario. I know exactly how people would react to that scenario. It just isn't as if it were an existential threat, because it's not.

Long story short, you're upset because my "what would happen" is different than what you think would happen. But...isn't that difference of opinion exactly what such a thread exists to discuss?

This isn't a versus thread. Threat/not threat, win/lose don't matter. You wake up to find that for the last eight hours, the dead walk and are somehow killing people and turning them into walking dead. Suicide rates are up. They are also walking dead.
How do you react? How do your neighbors react? Blow by blow. Hour by hour. Day by day. Stop when you're confident the authorities would contain it.

I would be pretty curious about what it was that caused such an improbable state of affairs. For one thing, suicides don't increase after natural disasters. Suicides are a result of issues like depression, the whole world doesn't actually just decide to off themselves en masse because the tv is reporting about zombies. That's just a basic misinterpretations of how suicides work. You might see suicides increase long AFTER the event, because someone who lost family members sinks into depression or something, but that's not a morning after problem.

Me? I'd wake up. I don't really watch tv in the morning. I'd drive to work. If I saw crazy crap, or got a telephone call, I might change this pattern. I wake up late. Authorities would have contained it by the time I get to work. People would no doubt be super panicky on the television, just like for ebola or whatever. There would probably be a quarantine wherever it broke out. It would actually affect fairly few lives.

[Grim Portent]

I'd expect pretty much no real damage anywhere in the developed world, the developing world would probably have a much bigger problem, though some nations are militarised enough that they could avoid the major issues.

I wouldn't expect much of a change in how society functions other than people who work with the injured, sick or elderly being either armed or accompanied by people who are armed. The mutilation and cremation of the deceased would become standard practice in nations where it can be done, nations that lack the capacity to easily burn bodies would likely settle for mutilation.

Big chunks of areas that were vulnerable and lacked the means to contain the threat, which would basically be very small parts of the least developed nations in the world, would likely have roaming bands of zombies left behind when people fled that will last until environmental effects or animals kill them all.

Probably an increase in spirituality, at least for a while. I expect it would decrease again as time progressed and people got over the whole 'zombies are real' thing.

Increased numbers of hospices and homeless shelters would be likely as measures to minimise unobserved deaths.

[SiuiS]

It's been a while since I've replied here, but I actually do have something to add.

Considering that the sheer existence of zombies is by itself a drastic violation of physical forces, I think it would be somewhat erroneous to be very confident about their nature or their abilities, or the consequences of their existence. Even about things which seem like they ought to be a given.

After all, the only thing we could know for certain is that something very wrong is happening.

This is a very good depiction of what I was trying to work with, than you. I think you're right though; the actual question is simply too big to answer. Each level of society would react differently, and the end result would be an unpredictable current.

I think the fundamental idea, there, of something being broken about the world, somehow, is a good one. Often unexplored, too. The issue becomes how to frame that such that it's not just met with "pfff, nuh-uh!", and also without diminishing the concept to a size that is easily answered.

Walking Dead, I suppose, would be one such example. Zombies routinely look pretty jacked up. Clothing tends to be pretty horrible. Survivors apparently have time to shave and tend their hair and so forth. Hell, a lot of zombies just sort of chill while waiting for victims, providing a standard mark 1 jump scare, but look more bedraggled than the survivors that have been doing crazy stuff for hours of screen time.

It's just kind of an odd genre quirk.

Walking dead goes through pains to keep the look authentic, with some caveats for camera accessibility. The people who shave have kits for shaving, or scissors. They also tend to have terrible and simple hair cuts, visible mending and such.

Other shows/movies don't so that much though.

But...the threat as assumed does not match the stated scenario. I know exactly how people would react to that scenario. It just isn't as if it were an existential threat, because it's not.

Science is broken and that doesn't shake up anything at all?

I have been relying on the difference between reality and perception since the start. Much like pain; the actual pain one experiences when punched is much less than the stress and fear they experience at the thought of being punched in a tense situation. People who could easily handle being punched will react as if they cannot because until it happens, they aren't certain they can handle it. It causes illogical reactions when viewed objectively.

Zombies may end up not being a threat. Where I take umbrage is the idea that all people know this immediately and no one in the world reacts poorly out of fear or superstition because of it. I'm okay with you expecting a different set of occurrences. I'm less okay with the casual dismissal of the possibility that anything could happen.

I'll try and think of RL examples for you that don't involve verboten topics. It's very frustrating to have models from reality that perfectly demonstrate, that I can't share.

I would be pretty curious about what it was that caused such an improbable state of affairs. For one thing, suicides don't increase after natural disasters. Suicides are a result of issues like depression, the whole world doesn't actually just decide to off themselves en masse because the tv is reporting about zombies. That's just a basic misinterpretations of how suicides work. You might see suicides increase long AFTER the event, because someone who lost family members sinks into depression or something, but that's not a morning after problem.

*shrug* verboten topics. It has been grasped by enough people thus far that I do not believe it's erroneous to make the conclusion I did.

Probably an increase in spirituality, at least for a while. I expect it would decrease again as time progressed and people got over the whole 'zombies are real' thing.

That's interesting. Do you feel people can normalize and compartmentalize a clearly supernatural occurrence when it is documented and routine?

[Grim Portent]

That's interesting. Do you feel people can normalize and compartmentalize a clearly supernatural occurrence when it is documented and routine?

Humans are very adaptive psychologically, it takes a great deal to change their worldview.

Provided it isn't shoved in their faces over a long period of time, and after containment that ceases to be an issue in the developed world, humans would gradually start to think of the zombies as just being part of the world. To later generations they'd have always been there and the original survivors would be split among different faiths and philosophies arguing over what the zombies are/represent, and scientists trying to understand them. It may take a while, but eventually the developed world would drift back towards a less religious society, especially if their faith provides no answers to the situation.

Actually thinking about it, fervent followers of religions with doomsday prophecies could become a destabilising risk to society in such an event, believing that the dead rising is just the start of a wider chain of events.

[stcfg]

That's interesting. Do you feel people can normalize and compartmentalize a clearly supernatural occurrence when it is documented and routine?

I'm not sure what is the difference between a supernatural occurrence that is documented and routine and a natural occurrence.

If magic was discovered and well documented enough, it would probably be more like the discovery of electricity. When electricity was discovered is probably was like magic to people that didn't understand it.

A scientific revolution would happen and the model for how people understand the universe would change but that doesn't mean that all science is broken.

[Killer Angel]

Do you feel people can normalize and compartmentalize a clearly supernatural occurrence when it is documented and routine?

Supernatural occurrences, tend to lose a lot of their exceptionality, if they become a daily routine.

[SiuiS]

I'm not sure what is the difference between a supernatural occurrence that is documented and routine and a natural occurrence.

If magic was discovered and well documented enough, it would probably be more like the discovery of electricity. When electricity was discovered is probably was like magic to people that didn't understand it.

A scientific revolution would happen and the model for how people understand the universe would change but that doesn't mean that all science is broken.

It's a big jump from death animating and moving due to supernatural forces, and discovering magic.

Supernatural occurrences, tend to lose a lot of their exceptionality, if they become a daily routine.

Aye, normally. I think the constant push to discover how it functions would keep that candle burning though.


*


As an aside, how does radiation affect dead tissue? I know radiation poisoning will kill a living creature. Would it degrade an already dead one? Ignoring for the moment that the difference between sunlight and fallout is simply type and magnitude.

[veti]

As an aside, how does radiation affect dead tissue? I know radiation poisoning will kill a living creature. Would it degrade an already dead one? Ignoring for the moment that the difference between sunlight and fallout is simply type and magnitude.

Radiation has been used to preserve some forms of dead tissue, because it kills bacteria that would otherwise degrade it. I would imagine that prolonged exposure to low-intensity radiation would 'cure' dead meat, but what effect that would have on zombies is anyone's guess.

Presumably sufficiently-intense radiation would burn tissue, and damage it in the same way as sufficiently-intense heat.

[VincentTakeda]

So we're uh... Trying to make beef jerky with a microwave?

[veti]

So we're uh... Trying to make beef jerky with a microwave?

The radiation inside a microwave is definitely toward what I'd call the "intense" end of that range. Cooking is just burning that's stopped early.

[Killer Angel]

The radiation inside a microwave is definitely toward what I'd call the "intense" end of that range. Cooking is just burning that's stopped early.

Eh, but we need a large microwave oven, to lure the zombies in it...

[Erloas]

One thing to consider is that this is one of those cases where we've got the same word meaning different things. Radiation from a microwave is different than radiation from something that is radioactive, and radiation poisoning is excessive exposure to radioactive particles.

I actually think if we've got zombies that are immune to the elements they would mostly be unaffected by a microwave, but since they aren't immune to catching fire, I would think you would have to have a very strong microwave focused on them for a long period of time.

I'm not sure on radiation poisoning exactly, but the biggest problem with radiation exposure is the mutation of genes and the destruction/screwing with the natural regeneration of tissue in living bodies. Since zombies don't heal long term exposure to radiation shouldn't really do anything to them. And a quick search of radiation poisoning is the same thing as long term exposure, just enough that it starts much sooner.

The radiation causes cellular degradation due to damage to DNA and other key molecular structures within the cells in various tissues; this destruction, particularly as it affects ability of cells to divide normally, in turn causes the symptoms.

That was from radiation sickness, so pretty much exactly the same thing as long term exposure. So it would seem as long as they "survive" the initial blast they should be mostly unaffected. This wouldn't be the case with other virus style zombie scenarios, but in this supernatural one it should be.

[holygroundj]

Zombie apocalypse is my one irrational fear. If you boil it down to more rational thoughts, I would say my biggest fear is something like the Road coming to fruition. Something breaks the government's hold on the law itself and then the enforced community breaks down as people fend for themselves. Since i have no survival related skills, I'm the first to go.

Man the Road was depressing. Sometimes, when I read that book again, I always stop when they find the hole in the ground.

[Donnadogsoth]

I think it would be contained within a week. I don't see the problem. Where are all these "living dead" coming from? Most of the dead people are in the ground or scattered as ashes. I suppose a few might be in the morgue, and some more trapped in crashed vehicles. I'd say the military gets called in, spreads out, and the problem is over inside a week.

[VincentTakeda]

I do agree that if we're just talking about slow dumb shambling zombies yeah.
I can't imagine this getting out of hand much in the first place.
Particularly in places where private gun ownership is a thing.

That's why if you're gonna go for a zombie apocalypse, the world war z zombie is the superior choice.

If every zombie has the threat level of a 500 pound man trying to make it up the stairs for another snack cake, thats one thing.
If every zombie has the threat level of a feral orangutan with motive that feels no pain... I think that changes things significantly

[SiuiS]

One thing to consider is that this is one of those cases where we've got the same word meaning different things. Radiation from a microwave is different than radiation from something that is radioactive, and radiation poisoning is excessive exposure to radioactive particles.

I actually think if we've got zombies that are immune to the elements they would mostly be unaffected by a microwave, but since they aren't immune to catching fire, I would think you would have to have a very strong microwave focused on them for a long period of time.

I'm not sure on radiation poisoning exactly, but the biggest problem with radiation exposure is the mutation of genes and the destruction/screwing with the natural regeneration of tissue in living bodies. Since zombies don't heal long term exposure to radiation shouldn't really do anything to them. And a quick search of radiation poisoning is the same thing as long term exposure, just enough that it starts much sooner.


That was from radiation sickness, so pretty much exactly the same thing as long term exposure. So it would seem as long as they "survive" the initial blast they should be mostly unaffected. This wouldn't be the case with other virus style zombie scenarios, but in this supernatural one it should be.

I was thinking fall out, but the thought became more general. I'm not sure if radiation has a deleterious effect on functionally-inanimate things or not.

If radiation poisoning requires metabolism that's a pretty clar answer though.

[Bulldog Psion]

Science is broken and that doesn't shake up anything at all?

I have been relying on the difference between reality and perception since the start. Much like pain; the actual pain one experiences when punched is much less than the stress and fear they experience at the thought of being punched in a tense situation. People who could easily handle being punched will react as if they cannot because until it happens, they aren't certain they can handle it. It causes illogical reactions when viewed objectively.

Zombies may end up not being a threat. Where I take umbrage is the idea that all people know this immediately and no one in the world reacts poorly out of fear or superstition because of it. I'm okay with you expecting a different set of occurrences. I'm less okay with the casual dismissal of the possibility that anything could happen.

I'll try and think of RL examples for you that don't involve verboten topics. It's very frustrating to have models from reality that perfectly demonstrate, that I can't share.

[...]

That's interesting. Do you feel people can normalize and compartmentalize a clearly supernatural occurrence when it is documented and routine?

I think you're overestimating the average person's understanding of, and faith in, science. To most people, science is something that guys in lab coats do somewhere, and that gives them cars, TVs, and smartphones that they have no idea how it works.

If they don't understand it anyway, it can't be "broken" for them by zombies. It's just another weird phenomenon in a world full of weird phenomena that they already just accept on a daily basis without knowing how they work.

I daresay the majority of people have some belief in the supernatural already. Whether via general religious belief, ghosts, demons, possession, haunted houses, the evil eye, what have you, I'd be willing to say that better than half the people in any given population sample of sufficient size already believe something supernatural is real.

Furthermore, there have been a ton of zombie movies. The idea of zombies isn't particularly new and startling. In a way, a zombie plague would probably be kind of familiar.

Now as for scientific types? Well, as someone interested in science, and who fancies himself a bit of a rationalist, I can only speak for myself. I can't claim that my viewpoint represents anyone else at all.

In my case, I would be scientifically interested in the zombies. They exist; therefore, there must be some process which creates them and enables their existence. While I wouldn't personally get any closer to one than I could help, and would limit my interaction to the bullet and the machete, I would certainly be fascinated by whatever new phenomenon their existence would reveal to science. They exist; therefore they are natural; therefore the natural sciences are about to expand in a fascinating, if a bit spooky, new direction.

Of course people are going to react poorly. I've already noted several times that I figure quite a few ragged homeless people would be tragically shot, run over, or otherwise disposed of by overzealous zombie hunters.

But you seem to be looking for confirmation of total societal breakdown as a result of the odd zombie here and there. I, and seemingly some others in this thread, just don't see it happening. Social structure is a human survival mechanism. Put them in a survival situation and they are unlikely to deliberately kick over the thing they themselves and people like them built to make it easier to stay alive.

The social structure might become modified, and people would be more likely to support totalitarian arrangements (assuming that those didn't try to disarm them when zombies were prowling). Then again, if the existing setup proved capable of dealing with the situation, and in the first world I think this would be the case, it might not lead to sweeping changes. Maybe establishment of a Bureau of Unrestricted Zombie Zapping (BUZZ) or something.

Like I said, if you want society to break down in a zombie story you're writing or something, just do it. If you want people's opinion on whether the appearance of a few zombies would cause humanity to suddenly implode and destroy itself, then my opinion is that no, it wouldn't.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I think you're overestimating the average person's understanding of, and faith in, science. To most people, science is something that guys in lab coats do somewhere, and that gives them cars, TVs, and smartphones that they have no idea how it works.

If they don't understand it anyway, it can't be "broken" for them by zombies. It's just another weird phenomenon in a world full of weird phenomena that they already just accept on a daily basis without knowing how they work.

A popular thread in a lot of zombie fiction is having science failing to solve the problem, either via a cure, a vaccine or some other thing. I submit this plotline exists because it's pointing out that science won't be the solution to the problem within the story. Although at this point it's reached silly cliche status, I posit it originated with a desire to subvert audience expectations.

Spoiler: Has anyone here not seen DotD?

Show

I liked how the scientist character in Day of the Dead was all excited about a rather useless, but weird discovery. Also, when he failed to produce anything practically useful in his research, other people got fed up with him. This idea was basically his whole point of existing in the movie.

In short, science is both officially broken (in terms of our understanding), and broken in the public's view because people have an unrealistic expectation that it will provide solutions, when really all you can expect of science is an investigation process and finding (potentially) interesting things to look at.

Also, tying this post into a previous statement, investigating these magical forces with science does not guarantee that we could make use of (or keep ourselves safe from) these magical forces in any way. It's a possibility, not a guarantee. But that possibility is the reason why it's worth engaging in science in the first place.

[veti]

But you seem to be looking for confirmation of total societal breakdown as a result of the odd zombie here and there. I, and seemingly some others in this thread, just don't see it happening. Social structure is a human survival mechanism. Put them in a survival situation and they are unlikely to deliberately kick over the thing they themselves and people like them built to make it easier to stay alive.

For the most part, I agree with you. And yet... I can see a way it could go horribly downhill. It's clearest if I describe how I imagine it playing out for me, personally.

Morning. We get up, get the kids ready for daycare, and go to work. At no point do we hear any news, so nothing interferes with this routine. The first inkling of anything out of the ordinary is when we get out on the road and there's no traffic. That's odd, but not really alarming.

Arriving at work, I check the internet. But the news sites are all down - three billion people clicking "refresh" on them will do that. I might see something odd on whatever sites I do find, but most likely would ignore it. If I paid enough attention to actually read the words "dead returning to life" or similar, I'd just assume it was a publicity stunt for some crappy new movie.

A few more people arrive at work. Some of them may have heard some news, but it's crazy hard to confirm anything because the relevant bits of the internet are effectively down (and will be, most likely, for at least the rest of the day). Eventually we figure out how to get a radio or TV working, and eventually eventually we decide to take what it's saying seriously. Then I call my spouse, we need to pick up the kids and get home - not because home is magically safe, but it is important that we all be together right now.

Before being picked up, I walk to the local shops. My plan is to get some cash from the bank, and buy some supplementary food, on the basis that I don't know when it will be possible to go shopping again. Many shops are closed (because people haven't turned up for work today), but there's probably a bakery open - I get a couple of loafs of bread, maybe some pies. On top of that, I know we've got enough food in the house to last the rest of the week, plus some emergency rations; that's reassuring if it's Monday, but not so much if it's Friday.

And it's this question of "shopping" that has the potential to destroy everything. A lot of shops are closed, or open at sharply reduced capacity (a lot of supermarket checkout operators have stayed home), and a lot of people have just simultaneously realised that they don't know how long this whatever-it-is will go on for or when things will get back to normal - so those shops that are open, are now under enormous pressure. There may not be any deliveries today, or tomorrow. The supermarkets will be a frenzied scrum on day 1, bare by day 2.

What would you do, if you couldn't buy food, and didn't know how long it would be until you could? My first thought would be to beg from family and neighbours, but if that didn't work... I'd have to say, smashing windows and taking what I needed would start to look like an increasingly attractive option. Now, as per government recommendations, we have about three days' worth of emergency food in the house; but not everyone has that, and I'd hate to be dependent on it without having some idea when it would end. The idea of those rations is for something like an earthquake or eruption, where there's an initial shock and then you just have to survive until help can get to you. But this - this is ongoing, and everywhere. Who knows when the shops will be full again?

[VincentTakeda]

Plus I think the better your neighborhood the faster it will fall. Good neighborhoods are full of entitled people and you cannot match the unmitigated fury of getting in the way of an upper middle class suv driving soccer mom who cant get her starbucks... The zombies would run from her if they know whats good for them. zombies will be the least of your problems in a rich neighborhood.

We could be kind and call them 'hard working, motivated, ruthless opportunists...'

I don't wanna be mean, but if you told a guy the only chance he had of keeping his $500,000 home is if he lit a kitty on fire... If I were a gambling man... Hate to say it... but... I wouldnt be betting on the kitties... And thats before we even talk about zombies...

Sure there are plenty of them out there that would say meh. I'll lose the house... No big deal. I built that fortune I can do it again... But they wouldnt have to if all they had to do was take this can of gas over there to that little box... Maybe I'm exaggerating.... Maybe.

[SiuiS]

I think you're overestimating the average person's understanding of, and faith in, science. To most people, science is something that guys in lab coats do somewhere, and that gives them cars, TVs, and smartphones that they have no idea how it works.

If they don't understand it anyway, it can't be "broken" for them by zombies. It's just another weird phenomenon in a world full of weird phenomena that they already just accept on a daily basis without knowing how they work.

Oh, I'm not talking about perception. Although your point that people already believe in the supernatural and so it's reveal would have little impact is interesting. I would expect at minimum a shift in societal power dynamic – every skeptic is now an idiot and every spiritual or new age or spooky person is the go-to.

Unless you know an entire neighborhood of rational and level headed people. That would be ace. Likely stable enough to fix the rest of the world from there!

Furthermore, there have been a ton of zombie movies. The idea of zombies isn't particularly new and startling. In a way, a zombie plague would probably be kind of familiar.

That's the problem though, isn't it?
A familiar scenario. Zombies exist! Well, you've seen the movies. You know how this goes. It's time to get your zombie kit, your zombie gear, call up your friends on the phone tree and tell them which color coded zombie survival binder to reference, and hit the streets. You're savvy, you're capable and young, you'll survive this!

A number of people have zombie survival plans which include "befriend folks who look like chumps, take their stuff". And I expect these over zealous aurvival nuts will be the real deleterious force at work.

Now as for scientific types? Well, as someone interested in science, and who fancies himself a bit of a rationalist, I can only speak for myself. I can't claim that my viewpoint represents anyone else at all.

In my case, I would be scientifically interested in the zombies. They exist; therefore, there must be some process which creates them and enables their existence. While I wouldn't personally get any closer to one than I could help, and would limit my interaction to the bullet and the machete, I would certainly be fascinated by whatever new phenomenon their existence would reveal to science. They exist; therefore they are natural; therefore the natural sciences are about to expand in a fascinating, if a bit spooky, new direction.

Speaking as a tangent, this sounds like a rationalization. Consider, it means that whatever force is doing this has existed the sum of human history and has so far been scientifically undetectable, and not without interest or effort. Why would we assume that, only change being zombies, suddenly we would have a breakthrough on, like, discovering the human soul, or charting the planetary flow of chi, or detecting the subtle energies of astrology?

The answer is that the means are just as inscrutable, just as logically, scientifically bull as before... But there are still zombies. It's like reducing an equation. Sometimes the best you can do is reduce it to a smaller equation, not solve for a discrete number.

But you seem to be looking for confirmation of total societal breakdown as a result of the odd zombie here and there.

You're extrapolating incredulous ness at specific flippant responses into disagreement with a premise.

I've seen someone stabbed for a wrong number dialed on their phone.
I've seen someone almost physically assault another for not flagging down a bus.
I've seen reports of an entire county having a pervasively corrupt and morally wicked police force and naught to be done.
I've seen roving gangs of ex-military bad boys who were more interested in defending their honor from percieved slights than what actually may have happened or been said.

Any response along the lines of "nothing could possible go wrong, we solve this, business as usual" is either a failure of understanding of the human condition, or too general a generalization.

I fully agree this wouldn't be a total societal breakdown. I do think things will be much worse in the first few days than you, however, because I personally know scores of people who are terrible human beings. There's an entire four block section of town no one visits, and that police (and paramedics) do not enter without at least a vest. An area where fights will break out over patio furniture that leads to fatal shootings. This strikes me as the kind of thing that could do so much damage it makes a mess of everywhere else as well.

[Forum Explorer]

For the most part, I agree with you. And yet... I can see a way it could go horribly downhill. It's clearest if I describe how I imagine it playing out for me, personally.

Morning. We get up, get the kids ready for daycare, and go to work. At no point do we hear any news, so nothing interferes with this routine. The first inkling of anything out of the ordinary is when we get out on the road and there's no traffic. That's odd, but not really alarming.

Arriving at work, I check the internet. But the news sites are all down - three billion people clicking "refresh" on them will do that. I might see something odd on whatever sites I do find, but most likely would ignore it. If I paid enough attention to actually read the words "dead returning to life" or similar, I'd just assume it was a publicity stunt for some crappy new movie.

A few more people arrive at work. Some of them may have heard some news, but it's crazy hard to confirm anything because the relevant bits of the internet are effectively down (and will be, most likely, for at least the rest of the day). Eventually we figure out how to get a radio or TV working, and eventually eventually we decide to take what it's saying seriously. Then I call my spouse, we need to pick up the kids and get home - not because home is magically safe, but it is important that we all be together right now.

Do you listen to the radio in your car?


Also bolded for emphasis, what? What do you mean working? Are they all broken in your neighborhood or something?

Anyways for the radio? We do have really bad storms occasionally so they have emergency broadcasts. They are very distinct, and could/would be used to spread the word of where the zombies were and if it was safe to leave your home. They honestly wouldn't even say why. It would be something like 'Please stay in your home. Dangerous creatures are at such and such locations. If you are not within a safe place and are within that area, please head to the nearest police station. Avoid all individuals who are acting in a strange manner. Please stay in your home...'

Something like that would simply be playing on every radio station.

[Killer Angel]

It would be something like 'Please stay in your home. Dangerous creatures are at such and such locations. If you are not within a safe place and are within that area, please head to the nearest police station. Avoid all individuals who are acting in a strange manner. Please stay in your home...'

Something like that would simply be playing on every radio station.

Will they also play R.E.M.'s "it's the end of the world"?

[veti]

Do you listen to the radio in your car?

Not usually, no.

Also bolded for emphasis, what? What do you mean working? Are they all broken in your neighborhood or something?

It's the office. Radios and TVs aren't generally used here, except on special occasions, and I for one don't know where they're kept or what to plug them in to.