Peebles' Perfectly Pointless Popular Prattle - Random Banter #211

[Skeppio]

Aah, okay.

Also hey Rayman might be in Smash 4. Video link.

It's looking pretty legit at this point. If it ends up confirmed, that'd make me insanely happy.

[Teddy]

It's a conspiracy backed by Microsoft! Once they get everybody playing Robocode in .NET, that's when they'll strike!

Yes, because Microsoft needs to get everyone to play a programming game to ambush them. It's not like they could infiltrate them through the world's most popular operative system or something...

And a d9, if there was such a thing ... basically any d3x where x is an integer of 3 would suffice.

You could always emulate one with two d3s.

I don't think it would even be possible to produce such a thing, because (AFAIK) there isn't any solid figure with 9 faces where all the faces are the same size and shape (which is obviously quite important, because otherwise your dice will have a bias). Could just use a d10 and reroll if 10 comes up, of course...

Well, if you accept rounded faces, you could create rugby ball-shaped one with nine faces curving toward the points. It would definitely look stupid, but it would be fair.

ION:
Home alone for almost a week now, and I'll make sure to get the most out of the situation, even if it just means lounging in the sofa and enjoying the silence and solitude...

[Rawhide]

You could always emulate one with two d3s.

1st D3 = 0, 3, 6
2nd D3 = 1, 2, 3

Roll both, add together.

I'll probably pick it up at some point! Just not right now. Because again it wasn't in stock.

Get it. It has online multiplayer, you know.

[Solse]

Yes, because Microsoft needs to get everyone to play a programming game to ambush them. It's not like they could infiltrate them through the world's most popular operative system or something...

They've already got most of the population sucked in using Windows, but the Robocode Initiative is to draw over the final holdouts, the hardcore programmers who use BSD or Linux.

You could always emulate one with two d3s.

1st D3 = 0, 3, 6
2nd D3 = 1, 2, 3

Roll both, add together.

That's pretty cool. I bet it's possible to emulate any N-sided die (except for d1) using combinations of other, smaller amounts of dice, or dice of the same amount of sides (if those dice exist).
A d2 for our purposes would be a coin.

d2 = d2: 1,2
d3 = d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1
d4 = d4: 1,2,3,4
d5 = d2: 1,2 + d4: 0,1,2,3
d6 = d6: 1,2,3,4,5,6
d7 = d4: 0, 1, 2, 3 + d4: 1, 2, 3, 4
d8 = (d2: 1,2 + d4: 0,1,2,3): 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 + (d2: 1,2 + d4: 0,1,2,3): 0, 1, 2, 3, 4
d9 = (d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 3, 6 + (d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1): 1,2,3
And et cetera.

Now that I think about it, it's probably possible to emulate a die of any side using just coins:
d2 = d2: 1,2
d3 = d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1
d4 = d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1
d5 = d2: 1,2 + (d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 1, 2, 3
d6 = d2: 1,2 + (d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 1, 2, 3 + d2: 0, 1
d7 = d2: 1,2 + (d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 1, 2, 3 + d2: 0, 1 + d2: 0, 1

I think that all you have to do is add d2: 0,1 to the end of each roll to make it emulate a die of one side higher.

Well, if you accept rounded faces, you could create rugby ball-shaped one with nine faces curving toward the points. It would definitely look stupid, but it would be fair.

I saw a picture of a d9 that looked like that:

Spoiler: Possibly large photo

Show

[factotum]

I saw a picture of a d9 that looked like that:

Spoiler: Possibly large photo

Show

That's more of a spinner than a die, to my mind.

[Teddy]

That's pretty cool. I bet it's possible to emulate any N-sided die (except for d1) using combinations of other, smaller amounts of dice, or dice of the same amount of sides (if those dice exist).
A d2 for our purposes would be a coin.

d2 = d2: 1,2
d3 = d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1
d4 = d4: 1,2,3,4
d5 = d2: 1,2 + d4: 0,1,2,3
d6 = d6: 1,2,3,4,5,6
d7 = d4: 0, 1, 2, 3 + d4: 1, 2, 3, 4
d8 = (d2: 1,2 + d4: 0,1,2,3): 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 + (d2: 1,2 + d4: 0,1,2,3): 0, 1, 2, 3, 4
d9 = (d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 3, 6 + (d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1): 1,2,3
And et cetera.

Now that I think about it, it's probably possible to emulate a die of any side using just coins:
d2 = d2: 1,2
d3 = d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1
d4 = d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1
d5 = d2: 1,2 + (d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 1, 2, 3
d6 = d2: 1,2 + (d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 1, 2, 3 + d2: 0, 1
d7 = d2: 1,2 + (d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 1, 2, 3 + d2: 0, 1 + d2: 0, 1

I think that all you have to do is add d2: 0,1 to the end of each roll to make it emulate a die of one side higher.

Sadly, that won't work for the same reason as 1d6 + 1d6 doesn't yield 12 as often as it yields 7. Take your d3 example, there are four possible outcomes when throwing two coins:

c0	c1	Result
1	1	1
1	2	1
2	1	2
2	2	3

(I really want to 0-index everything, but for consistency's sake...)

You probably notice the problem: you're twice as likely to get a 1 as a 2 or a 3, and it's in fact impossible to emulate a fair d3 with coins without declaring one result a "reroll" result, forcing you to start over.

[Rawhide]

Anything that is half of a larger die is super easy. A d3 can easily be emulated on a d6 by just going 1, 2, 3, 4=1, 5=2, 6=3. A d5 on a d10. d50 on a d100. Other fractions are possible. e.g. A coin can do d2, but so can a d6 by going 1, 2, 3=1, 4=2, 5=1, 6=2.

[VincentTakeda]

So you can toss all your d4's and d6's... a d12 serves as a d2, d3, d4, and d6's... (finally d12 gets some love.)
D10's can be replaced by d20's where you only care about the second digit.
So you're down to d8, d12, d20 and you've pretty much got everything covered.

Only reason I dont do this already is I seem to have a surprising number of d12's that are not geometrically correct to such a degree that I can both see it with my eyes and feel it with my fingers. Even more odd it seems on many of them to be the same faces that are distorted... 2 and 8 each have a 'long edge' on quite a few of my d12s... The visual telltale is that the numbers 1 and 6 are not centered on their face.

But if you have reliable d12s... A lot of people could be carrying around much lighter dice bags if they wanted to.

[Rawhide]

So you can toss all your d4's and d6's... a d12 serves as a d2, d3, d4, and d6's... (finally d12 gets some love.)
D10's can be replaced by d20's where you only care about the second digit.
So you're down to d8, d12, d20 and you've pretty much got everything covered.

Only reason I dont do this already is I seem to have a surprising number of d12's that are not geometrically correct to such a degree that I can both see it with my eyes and feel it with my fingers. Even more odd it seems on many of them to be the same faces that are distorted... 2 and 8 each have a 'long edge' on quite a few of my d12s... The visual telltale is that the numbers 1 and 6 are not centered on their face.

But if you have reliable d12s... A lot of people could be carrying around much lighter dice bags if they wanted to.

A d20 is actually better as a d10 than a d10 is, due to the fact that the d10 is not a regular polyhedron.

[HalfTangible]

A d20 is actually better as a d10 than a d10 is, due to the fact that the d10 is not a regular polyhedron.

Better how?

[Razanir]

You could always emulate one with two d3s.

Brilliant! We'll get two d3s, use them to emulate a d9, and use the d9 to emulate a d3.

[Rawhide]

Better how?

Regular polyhedrons are highly symmetrical. All faces are congruent regular polygons, assembled in the same way around each vertex. The d20 will roll better and roll fairer.

The difference, however, is negligible in RPG games. So much so that I don't know anyone (myself included) who would care.

[Teddy]

Anything that is half of a larger die is super easy. A d3 can easily be emulated on a d6 by just going 1, 2, 3, 4=1, 5=2, 6=3. A d5 on a d10. d50 on a d100. Other fractions are possible. e.g. A coin can do d2, but so can a d6 by going 1, 2, 3=1, 4=2, 5=1, 6=2.

Basically, anything that's possible to write as a product of 2s, 3s and 5s can be created as a fair die by a combination of regular (roleplaying) dice.

So you can toss all your d4's and d6's... a d12 serves as a d2, d3, d4, and d6's... (finally d12 gets some love.)
D10's can be replaced by d20's where you only care about the second digit.
So you're down to d8, d12, d20 and you've pretty much got everything covered.

Only reason I dont do this already is I seem to have a surprising number of d12's that are not geometrically correct to such a degree that I can both see it with my eyes and feel it with my fingers. Even more odd it seems on many of them to be the same faces that are distorted... 2 and 8 each have a 'long edge' on quite a few of my d12s... The visual telltale is that the numbers 1 and 6 are not centered on their face.

But if you have reliable d12s... A lot of people could be carrying around much lighter dice bags if they wanted to.

Yes! Finally a way to drop the unbearable load that's my dice I carry around everywhere!

Also, you can combine your d12 and d20 for a d8, so you don't even need that one.

Too bad on the skewed dice, though...

Better how?

To summarise Rawhide's points, the d20 rolls better and uniformly in all directions. I must say, though, that the d10-on-a-icosahedron is a scourge upon existence and should be eradicated on sight!

Brilliant! We'll get two d3s, use them to emulate a d9, and use the d9 to emulate a d3.

Yes!

We still need a way to get those d3s, though. I suggest a d6 and a d12.

[Taet]

I am picking out all the d6s from the dice sets for a Shadowrun game. And I do not think I like the shape of these either. I like the diamond shapes of the d8 and d10. d12s maybe. d6s and d20s I just do not like as much.

But if you have reliable d12s... A lot of people could be carrying around much lighter dice bags if they wanted to.

Fewer colors? Fewer shapes? Fewer pretty dice bags?

[VincentTakeda]

I think i've only ever met one person who refused to show up to the table with less than 4 pounds of dice.

[Cuthalion]

They've already got most of the population sucked in using Windows, but the Robocode Initiative is to draw over the final holdouts, the hardcore programmers who use BSD or Linux.



That's pretty cool. I bet it's possible to emulate any N-sided die (except for d1) using combinations of other, smaller amounts of dice, or dice of the same amount of sides (if those dice exist).
A d2 for our purposes would be a coin.

d2 = d2: 1,2
d3 = d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1
d4 = d4: 1,2,3,4
d5 = d2: 1,2 + d4: 0,1,2,3
d6 = d6: 1,2,3,4,5,6
d7 = d4: 0, 1, 2, 3 + d4: 1, 2, 3, 4
d8 = (d2: 1,2 + d4: 0,1,2,3): 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 + (d2: 1,2 + d4: 0,1,2,3): 0, 1, 2, 3, 4
d9 = (d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 3, 6 + (d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1): 1,2,3
And et cetera.

Now that I think about it, it's probably possible to emulate a die of any side using just coins:
d2 = d2: 1,2
d3 = d2: 1,2 + d2: 0, 1
d4 = d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1
d5 = d2: 1,2 + (d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 1, 2, 3
d6 = d2: 1,2 + (d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 1, 2, 3 + d2: 0, 1
d7 = d2: 1,2 + (d2: 0, 1 + d2: 1, 2 + d2: 0, 1): 0, 1, 2, 3 + d2: 0, 1 + d2: 0, 1

I think that all you have to do is add d2: 0,1 to the end of each roll to make it emulate a die of one side higher.



I saw a picture of a d9 that looked like that:

Spoiler: Possibly large photo

Show

My brother and I, since we didn't have a d20, used to use a d10 and d100 and divide by five, rounding down.

[Razanir]

Any number N that can be expressed as N=AB^K + B^(K-1) (A,B,K>1) can be simulated with other dice.

dN: dA+KdB, where they form a B-nary number.

[Taet]

There were seven loud people at the Shadowrun table. I was using the d10s and d%s anyway. To add up my gear price numbers. Because when I tried to do it in my head two other people were always talkinbg numbers and getting me confused. See? You always need more dice!

[Teddy]

My brother and I, since we didn't have a d20, used to use a d10 and d100 and divide by five, rounding down.

Hmm, won't that give a bias toward the lower numbers? I mean, unless you count (0, 0) as a 0 instead of 100, and make the d20 roll 0-19...

Any number N that can be expressed as N=AB^K + B^(K-1) (A,B,K>1) can be simulated with other dice.

dN: dA+KdB, where they form a B-nary number.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do here, but no. Contradiction:

N = 14 = 3 · 2² + 2¹ = AB^K + B^K-1

This would by your equation yield 1d3 and 2d2, but there are only 3 · 2 · 2 = 12 outcomes possible from rolling those dice, no matter which base you express it in...

There were seven loud people at the Shadowrun table. I was using the d10s and d%s anyway. To add up my gear price numbers. Because when I tried to do it in my head two other people were always talkinbg numbers and getting me confused. See? You always need more dice!

Yeah, we often end up using dice whenever we need a counter over at the gaming club, which is fairly often, seeing how we also play miniature games and the like.

[factotum]

Hmm, won't that give a bias toward the lower numbers? I mean, unless you count (0, 0) as a 0 instead of 100, and make the d20 roll 0-19...

Yes, it would, because the only way to get a 20 if you're rounding down is to roll 100 on d%, while the numbers 1-9 would all become 1. To make it fair you'd need to round *up*, so then every number from 96 to 100 would become 20.

[Peebles]

I don't know whether it's because I've done very little RP in the last five years, but Shadowrun confuses me. Loads of thresholds and different modifiers and soaking damage...at least I'm playing the Troll Face pregen out the starter set so I can stay well out the way during combats.

My ceramic D6's caused a bit of consternation because they're nowhere near the right shape; every side is different and one of them doesn't even have the sides in the right order. I think the 6 is opposite the 3 or something screwy like that. But they're pretty and painted all different colours and seem biased towards 2's anyway, so I don't see that as an advantage.

[FinnLassie]

Damn, I just got through all of the unlockable levels on BoI: Rebirth. Feels good man. Now waiting for the DLC Zooz has been telling me about...

Lord of the Rings online is taking far too long to download. I played it a bit over the weekend, and is probably the first game of that genre that I really enjoyed.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Got Majora's Mask for the 3ds for Valentines day from my wife...

Can I just say that this is the best Valentines Day gift I could imagine?

[Razanir]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do here, but no. Contradiction:

N = 14 = 3 · 2² + 2¹ = AB^K + B^K-1

This would by your equation yield 1d3 and 2d2, but there are only 3 · 2 · 2 = 12 outcomes possible from rolling those dice, no matter which base you express it in...

Correction.

N = AB^K, B >= A; B,K > 1; A >= 1

dN = dA+KdB, forming a B-nary number.

I had the right idea, but needed to think through it first. And mention the bound on A.



Also, I posit that no prime die size is expressible as sums of other dice.

[LaZodiac]

Damn, I just got through all of the unlockable levels on BoI: Rebirth. Feels good man. Now waiting for the DLC Zooz has been telling me about...

Lord of the Rings online is taking far too long to download. I played it a bit over the weekend, and is probably the first game of that genre that I really enjoyed.

Sweet! Now it's time to go for Platinum God! Consume everything!

I always have trouble getting into MMOs because either the combat isn't fun, or I have no one to play with and just lose interest.

Got Majora's Mask for the 3ds for Valentines day from my wife...

Can I just say that this is the best Valentines Day gift I could imagine?

That is in fact a very good present.

[Qwertystop]

I continue to wish they'd made Kirby and the Rainbow Curse a Valentine's Day release - apart from the fact that it's clearly ready (coming out about a week later), it's just adorable.

[Teddy]

Correction.

N = AB^K, B >= A; B,K > 1; A >= 1

dN = dA+KdB, forming a B-nary number.

I had the right idea, but needed to think through it first. And mention the bound on A.

Okay, now I see what you're trying to do. It only works if your dice have values on the interval 0 <= x < d where d is the die size, though, and the notation is confusing: dA+KdB does not a fair die make, but B^KdA + Ʃ_i=0^k-1BⁱdB does. Of course, now there's no need to express it in base B any longer...

Also, I posit that no prime die size is expressible as sums of other dice.

We can even expand it to say that you can't roll any products containing any other factors than 2s, 3s or 5s if we restrict ourselves to the common dice.

I continue to wish they'd made Kirby and the Rainbow Curse a Valentine's Day release - apart from the fact that it's clearly ready (coming out about a week later), it's just adorable.

I'd like to challenge the assertion that it's "clearly ready" just because there's no more than a week left to the release date. If game developers had those margins of error, the world would be spared so much grief and crushed expectations.

[Rawhide]

I'd like to challenge the assertion that it's "clearly ready" just because there's no more than a week left to the release date. If game developers had those margins of error, the world would be spared so much grief and crushed expectations.

I'm almost certain that the final code actually is ready, or at least as ready as it's going to be. In order to manufacture distribute the cartridges by the release date, the release code would have had to have "gone gold" (been locked to its final master with no further pre-release edits and sent to the manufacturer) a long time ago.

[Taet]

I don't know whether it's because I've done very little RP in the last five years, but Shadowrun confuses me. Loads of thresholds and different modifiers and soaking damage...at least I'm playing the Troll Face pregen out the starter set so I can stay well out the way during combats.

My ceramic D6's caused a bit of consternation because they're nowhere near the right shape; every side is different and one of them doesn't even have the sides in the right order. I think the 6 is opposite the 3 or something screwy like that. But they're pretty and painted all different colours and seem biased towards 2's anyway, so I don't see that as an advantage.

Funny. The GM was passing the pregens around the table and I never saw that one. Glad you spoke up about it. I did think it was weird to have no pregen for a face. And we seem to be getting a technomancer dwarf for a face since he was the only one with skills and charisma.

These dice sound wonderful! Do you have a picture? A link?

And I go there with a Warhammer player. There were enough d6s. For everyone.

Got Majora's Mask for the 3ds for Valentines day from my wife...

Can I just say that this is the best Valentines Day gift I could imagine?

A Valentine's Day gift that lasts!

We bought a fancy cream cake here. Not flowers this year. It was about as much as flowers. But this one, when the cats tried to eat it we did not worry about cat poisoning. And it was a very good cake indeed.

[Teddy]

I'm almost certain that the final code actually is ready, or at least as ready as it's going to be. In order to manufacture distribute the cartridges by the release date, the release code would have had to have "gone gold" (been locked to its final master with no further pre-release edits and sent to the manufacturer) a long time ago.

Oh, definitely, but that doesn't mean the game is ready yet.