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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    .
    Recent updates:

    1. Improved spellcasting rules regarding summoning/calling/animation/domination.
    2. Modified one of the War Priest's class abilities.
    3. Added an Ur-Priest variant.
    4. Added a Priest ACF: Reach of Faith.
    5. Added a Druid ACF: Verdant Lord.
    6. A lot of Time Bender additions and some improvements.
    7. Added missing info in the Construct pricing section.
    8. Several new spells added.
    9. Made required fixes in some of the class-combo feats, and added some.
    10. Improved the Dryad fix.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    What about the weapon chooses you made useless with you throwing out Crits?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelion View Post
    What about the weapon chooses you made useless with you throwing out Crits?
    That was very much intentional.
    The idea was to reduce the mechanical factor when choosing the weapon that defines your character and make some room for character-style to play a part in weapon selection.
    A greatsword is obviously superior to a dagger, but if someone's willing to put 4 feats into it (Rapid Fire, TWF, Unorthodox Weapon Usage & Vicious Strike), then s/he could bridge the gap significantly and make a solid knife fighter.
    This significantly helps reduce stereotypical weapons association with classes.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelion View Post
    What about the weapon chooses you made useless with you throwing out Crits?
    Three more reasons for this approach:
    1. The overall damage a martial character deals would be greater w/o resorting to blown up numbers.
    2. Less dice rolls mean a slight acceleration in the total time combats take
    3. The higher your attack roll is, the the better the quality of your strikes (capped by BAB, to prevent True Strike abuse at low levels).

    From my standpoint, it's an all win no lose solution.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Ya know, I bookmarked the old thread a while back, but I don't think I read through it properly. Then today, when browsing said bookmarks, I stumbled upon it, and from there to the newer more updated version. What makes it more important this time, is that unlike before when I just went 'Huh, this is cool', I had actually been working on my one Overhaul/Revamp of the 3.5/Pathfinder formula. So to see another one, at such an advanced stage has really helped give me motivation as well as inspiration to work on and finish my own.

    The 'Excess' replacement for Crits and the Strain-Tolerance mechanics are especially engaging. I had been pending on a more ToB replacement for Spells as I too wanted to extend the working day that adventurers have, but I knew that it would greatly increase bookeeping, and I had been wanting to avoid excess bookkeeping. But the Strain-Tolerance of spellcasting... well, it just works absolutely perfectly honestly, and I am very impressed that you managed to come up with it so well. I cannot wait to see how this develops in the future, and I hope you won't mind me using your Overhaul for my own, rather different Overhaul.

    Edit: There is one thing I would like to run by you. I kinda noticed the big debate you had with Brova over Pages 2-3, and during the discussion about PrC's, you challenged him to come up with concepts and ideas that you can't perform using this overhaul. Now, I will admit right away that I have not yet read over all of the feats and class features... they is is so much to read that I could likely spend days looking over everything, and still having missed stuff. You seem to have a pretty good idea about just about everything however. So I was wondering if I could run though a couple of PrC's/Builds that I have really enjoyed in the past, that I'm unsure you can replicate with the current classes?
    Last edited by Valerem; 2016-08-12 at 05:56 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Ya know, I bookmarked the old thread a while back, but I don't think I read through it properly. Then today, when browsing said bookmarks, I stumbled upon it, and from there to the newer more updated version. What makes it more important this time, is that unlike before when I just went 'Huh, this is cool', I had actually been working on my one Overhaul/Revamp of the 3.5/Pathfinder formula. So to see another one, at such an advanced stage has really helped give me motivation as well as inspiration to work on and finish my own.
    Always glad to hear that this endeavor of mine is put to good use.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    The 'Excess' replacement for Crits and the Strain-Tolerance mechanics are especially engaging. I had been pending on a more ToB replacement for Spells as I too wanted to extend the working day that adventurers have, but I knew that it would greatly increase bookeeping, and I had been wanting to avoid excess bookkeeping. But the Strain-Tolerance of spellcasting... well, it just works absolutely perfectly honestly, and I am very impressed that you managed to come up with it so well.
    Proper disclosure – the Strain & Tolerance approach is not originally mine. See the credits spoiler in post #2. But even though it's not originally mine, I'm content with the changes I applied to the original version.
    Notice that the spellpoints system just underneath it comes close at achieving the same result, but w/o allowing you to eventually possess unlimited low-yield ammo.
    As for the Crit-Substitution rules – yeah, I'm quite proud of those : )



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    I cannot wait to see how this develops in the future, and I hope you won't mind me using your Overhaul for my own, rather different Overhaul.
    Take whatever you fancy; disregard anything that stands in the way of fulfilling your vision.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Edit: There is one thing I would like to run by you. I kinda noticed the big debate you had with Brova over Pages 2-3, and during the discussion about PrC's, you challenged him to come up with concepts and ideas that you can't perform using this overhaul.
    Actually, there is a marginal amount of official PrC abilities that are beyond the scope of this overhaul, but those were left out deliberately. See post #10 for specifics (the Q-A phrase just before the first spoiler).



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Now, I will admit right away that I have not yet read over all of the feats and class features... they is is so much to read that I could likely spend days looking over everything, and still having missed stuff. You seem to have a pretty good idea about just about everything however. So I was wondering if I could run though a couple of PrC's/Builds that I have really enjoyed in the past, that I'm unsure you can replicate with the current classes?
    Ask away. Hope I can help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Proper disclosure – the Strain & Tolerance approach is not originally mine. See the credits spoiler in post #2. But even though it's not originally mine, I'm content with the changes I applied to the original version.
    Notice that the spell points system just underneath it comes close to achieving the same result, but w/o allowing you to eventually possess unlimited low-yield ammo.
    As for the Crit-Substitution rules – yeah, I'm quite proud of those : )
    Yeah, I had taken notice of the fact that the Strain & Tolerance isn't entirely your own in the discussions on thing thread. And whilst your Spell-Point System is a good system as well. I actually like the fact that you end up with unlimited low-yield ammo at the end. It just makes sense to me, especially when compared to the Tome of Battle system, where it not that hard to refresh and spam high-level manuvers. ESPECIALLY with some of the homebrew classes out there that use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Take whatever you fancy; disregard anything that stands in the way of fulfilling your vision.
    Thank you, I'll make sure to credit you - and those who also inspired yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Actually, there is a marginal amount of official PrC abilities that are beyond the scope of this overhaul, but those were left out deliberately. See post #10 for specifics (the Q-A phrase just before the first spoiler).
    Supernatural Spell / Cloak of Mysteries / Place Magic / Planar Bubble / Earth Sight / Earth Glide? Yeah, I'm alright with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Ask away. Hope I can help.
    Okay, so. Here is a few PrC's that I'm unsure about. I was going to highlight the Arcane Archer, but the main thing about them is their Image Arrow ability, and your Spell Channeling works for both melee and ranged. Which is good, though I feel like the Combat Caster feats should be Class Features instead of feats... there's also Dragon Disciple, I do like the Dragonfury Disciple, and it's an excellent 20 level class, but I kinda liked being able to choose to become a dragon during the game, instead of from the outset... but I digress.

    Swiftblade - Now, you can be a Warrior/Mage quite easily thanks to your new multiclassing rules - and they are something I'll have to pay attention to for sure - Swiftblade... well, they're more than just a Gish. They're taking a single spell and pushing it to the extremely. Learning how to empower it beyond the norm, allowing the speed to make them hard to hit, then giving them extra option flat out. Not to mention they actually end up absorbing some of the speed and keeping in permanently.

    Spellwarp Sniper - A bit of an odd class I know, but I really like the concept. A sniper, that's learned how to warp spells into rays. Unleashing them at the enemy from afar, and learning how to strike with pinpoint accuracy to deal devastating damage.

    Weretouched Master - Might be a bit unfair, as its race-specific. But I really liked the idea of being a Shifter, and unlocking your Lycanthrope power to the fullest, yet because you weren't made into one, you actually have more control over it than a fully-fledged Lycanthrope would have. Which is awesome.

    So... how do they compare?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Okay, so. Here is a few PrC's that I'm unsure about. I was going to highlight the Arcane Archer, but the main thing about them is their Image Arrow ability, and your Spell Channeling works for both melee and ranged. Which is good, though I feel like the Combat Caster feats should be Class Features instead of feats...
    This would turn thing around and eventually lead back to PrCs.
    The problem with PrCs is that with so many of them out there, you have no way of tracking all the possible synergies and it would be impossible to notice all potentially broken combos.
    Post # 28 has Phase Arrow and Seeker Arrow spells. Along with the Spell Channeling and the multiclassing caster-progression rules, you have all you need to build a full-fledged Arcane Archer.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    there's also Dragon Disciple, I do like the Dragonfury Disciple, and it's an excellent 20 level class, but I kinda liked being able to choose to become a dragon during the game, instead of from the outset... but I digress.
    See the "Draconic Feats – DFD Alternatives" spoiler at post #23 for that option.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Swiftblade - Now, you can be a Warrior/Mage quite easily thanks to your new multiclassing rules - and they are something I'll have to pay attention to for sure - Swiftblade... well, they're more than just a Gish. They're taking a single spell and pushing it to the extremely. Learning how to empower it beyond the norm, allowing the speed to make them hard to hit, then giving them extra option flat out. Not to mention they actually end up absorbing some of the speed and keeping in permanently.
    1. My rules have the Spring Attack line integrated into BAB progression.
    2. Attack bonuses are intrinsic to the Warrior class, so that one's covered as well.
    3. Sudden Casting – a 4th SL version of haste – self only.
    4. Diligent Rapidity is just the application of Freedom of Movement as a Sp or Su ability (or even a magical item).
    5. Perpetual Options is already covered by the Warrior's Tide of Battle.
    6. Blurred Alacrity, Arcane Reflexes, Fortified Hustle and Innervated Speed could actually be expressed quite nicely as Class-Combo feat-chain. Try to figure that one for yourself. If in one week from now you still find yourself stuck, I'll join your effort and together we'll see what we can make of it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Spellwarp Sniper - A bit of an odd class I know, but I really like the concept. A sniper, that's learned how to warp spells into rays. Unleashing them at the enemy from afar, and learning how to strike with pinpoint accuracy to deal devastating damage.
    I see nothing special about this one.
    Spellwarp is easily a feat.
    Sudden Raystrike is viable via Rogue multiclassing (to an even far greater effect via the Path Devotion rules).
    Ray coup-de-grace – another feat



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Weretouched Master - Might be a bit unfair, as its race-specific. But I really liked the idea of being a Shifter, and unlocking your Lycanthrope power to the fullest, yet because you weren't made into one, you actually have more control over it than a fully-fledged Lycanthrope would have. Which is awesome.
    I don't have Shifter covered in my races (never dug deep into them) and I must admit that I somewhat neglected lycanthropy.
    I could easily see controlled lycanthropy being a Shifter racial feat, but ATM I can't provide exact stats, because of current ignorance regarding that race.
    The next few weeks are very busy for me, so I won't have time to provide a decent answer for this one.
    Maybe shifters are exactly what I need to cover lycanthropy, with uncontrolled lycanthropy originating from cursed shifters.
    (noted to follow Eberron Campaign Setting for further familiarity with this race).

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    This would turn thing around and eventually lead back to PrCs.
    The problem with PrCs is that with so many of them out there, you have no way of tracking all the possible synergies and it would be impossible to notice all potentially broken combos.
    Post # 28 has Phase Arrow and Seeker Arrow spells. Along with the Spell Channeling and the multiclassing caster-progression rules, you have all you need to build a full-fledged Arcane Archer.
    I suppose that's the crux of it, isn't it? You believe that the feats people choose, and the class features they chose from the choice they're given. Should provide the foundations and fluff that a PrC would otherwise provide. That the crunch of a class/build, and the fluff off it should be decided by the players themselves, instead of woven into the classes themselves. Which I understand, it allows for a much greater variety of fluff if its unbound from the classes themselves... but having the PrC's, having them woven into the world itself - through this wasn't always done well - makes for a much deeper world in my opinion. After all, in fantasy worlds, there is often Elite Orders or large organisations... and having PrC's reflect those orders and organizations, and having your characters join them... well, I suppose it part of what you think D&D is as an RPG huh?

    Plus, the argument about PrC's, 'that there is too many of them to track properly', could easily be applied to a number of feats you have in this very overhaul, or the sheer amount of spells. I'm not saying that you are wrong for thinking that is the case, but that seems to be a foundation of why you hate PrC's and consider them one of the worse things to come out of 3rd Edition. Not the entire foundation, but an important part I think, and one that I don't entirely agree with as solid reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Maybe shifters are exactly what I need to cover lycanthropy, with uncontrolled lycanthropy originating from cursed shifters.
    Huh... switching it round on its head? Hmmm, could work...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    I suppose that's the crux of it, isn't it? You believe that the feats people choose, and the class features they chose from the choice they're given. Should provide the foundations and fluff that a PrC would otherwise provide. That the crunch of a class/build, and the fluff off it should be decided by the players themselves, instead of woven into the classes themselves. Which I understand, it allows for a much greater variety of fluff if its unbound from the classes themselves... but having the PrC's, having them woven into the world itself - through this wasn't always done well - makes for a much deeper world in my opinion. After all, in fantasy worlds, there is often Elite Orders or large organisations... and having PrC's reflect those orders and organizations, and having your characters join them... well, I suppose it part of what you think D&D is as an RPG huh?
    Nothing's to stop you from ruling that certain feats are inaccessible by your own and require a mentor, or a rite conducted by a group of disciples of a given Elite Order.
    For instance, any feat where it's stated that it is non-retrainable due to changing you on the physical level could automatically be included in such list. Class-combo feats could also be included. I'd do it myself, but I'm not sure if this would fit everyone's taste.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Plus, the argument about PrC's, 'that there is too many of them to track properly', could easily be applied to a number of feats you have in this very overhaul, or the sheer amount of spells. I'm not saying that you are wrong for thinking that is the case, but that seems to be a foundation of why you hate PrC's and consider them one of the worse things to come out of 3rd Edition. Not the entire foundation, but an important part I think, and one that I don't entirely agree with as solid reasoning.
    There are several distinct differences.
    1. Via my multiclassing rules you're always trading something for something else. A lot of official PrCs grant you something for nothing (or just about).
    2. With a limited and finite collection of classes, there are no real surprises once you get yourself familiarized with them.
    3. The better the feats, the higher the price you pay in character resources to obtain them.
    4. I don't hate PrCs – it's just that they're so loosely defined. They range from utterly useless/pointless to utterly broken. Some class combos are just sick. If PrCs are in the equation, then nothing's to stop people from popping up with more of them. One of my main goals was to remove the motivation people have to spend more time inventing new classes. This doesn't enrich the game, just bloats it with more materials to know and memorize.




    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Huh... switching it round on its head? Hmmm, could work...

    As I said, I'm still not sure which direction this will go.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Nothing's to stop you from ruling that certain feats are inaccessible on your own and require a mentor or a rite conducted by a group of disciples of a given Elite Order.
    For instance, any feat where it's stated that it is non-retrainable due to changing you on the physical level could automatically be included in such list. Class-combo feats could also be included. I'd do it myself, but I'm not sure if this would fit everyone's taste.
    You are right, there is nothing stopping you from doing as you say. That does not change the fact that the handbooks in 3.5 & Pathfinder don't just present a game system to be used. But a rich world with lore and history. You just present a game-system. Which for an overhaul, is understandable, as the core world of 3.5 still exists. But it still something that bugs me personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    There are several distinct differences.
    1. Via my multiclassing rules you're always trading something for something else. A lot of official PrCs grant you something for nothing (or just about).
    2. With a limited and finite collection of classes, there are no real surprises once you get yourself familiarised with them.
    3. The better the feats, the higher the price you pay in character resources to obtain them.
    4. I don't hate PrCs – it's just that they're so loosely defined. They range from utterly useless/pointless to utterly broken. Some class combos are just sick. If PrCs are in the equation, then nothing's to stop people from popping up with more of them. One of my main goals was to remove the motivation people have to spend more time inventing new classes. This doesn't enrich the game, just bloats it with more materials to know and memorise.
    1&2. Same could be said for spells quite easily. I mean you linked the complete overhaul of spells yourself, I'm sure you've ready it and know how stupid some spells can be, and the sheer amount is hard to follow at times.
    3. ... I'm afraid I don't follow.
    4. Eh, that is fair. I can understand that, and during the revamp I have planned I definitely plan to clear up what a Prestige Class, and what it means to enter one. It is one of the big trouble of 3.5 I do admit, with Pathfinder taking it a bit far in that most PrC's are just there to fill up space and are never actually taken.

    I think the goal of 'remove the motivation people have to spend time inventing new classes' is silly through. People are always going to want to make new classes, no matter how compressive your classes are. You can never cover every desire, especially are you have cut out the Paladin. Which some people have dedicated a LOT of time too. Then sometimes, people want to go rather absurd, and bring in other media into the game.

    Honestly, I think this is a great place to end the conversation. Your overhaul is fantastic from a mechanical and balance standpoint, but for someone who likes handbooks for the world they present just as much as the mechanics themselves? Well, it leaves me wanting. Hence why I am working on my own.
    Last edited by Valerem; 2016-08-16 at 07:18 AM.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    You are right, there is nothing stopping you from doing as you say. That does not change the fact that the handbooks in 3.5 & Pathfinder don't just present a game system to be used. But a rich world with lore and history. You just present a game-system. Which for an overhaul, is understandable, as the core world of 3.5 still exists. But it still something that bugs me personally.
    . . .
    Your overhaul is fantastic from a mechanical and balance standpoint, but for someone who likes handbooks for the world they present just as much as the mechanics themselves? Well, it leaves me wanting.
    If there ever was uncertainty about it – this project is not a campaign settings. It was never meant to be one. It's supposed to be applicable to any campaign – something that seems quite easy to me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    1&2. Same could be said for spells quite easily. I mean you linked the complete overhaul of spells yourself, I'm sure you've ready it and know how stupid some spells can be, and the sheer amount is hard to follow at times.
    True, but reinventing spells from the ground up is too big of an endeavor for me to take, and unless the result is radically different from 3.5 spells, the effort would be pointless.
    So far, I haven't come up with better fundamental rules for spells than those proposed by 3.Xe.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    3. ... I'm afraid I don't follow.
    Balance is more or less maintained, not mater the choices.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    I think the goal of 'remove the motivation people have to spend time inventing new classes' is silly through. People are always going to want to make new classes, no matter how compressive your classes are.
    The tricky part would be to create a class that brings an array of new and useful abilities that no other class brings, and yet avoid beating other classes at their shticks.
    If you can do that, then more power to you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    You can never cover every desire,
    You're absolutely right. With 50,000 characters per-post restriction, I had to make some compromises, but there's enough in there for people to figure out how to make their vision come alive.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    especially are you have cut out the Paladin. Which some people have dedicated a LOT of time too.
    I just explained in post #10 why the Paladin is incorporated into this project even if not specifically presented.
    - Fear immunity
    - High saves
    - Mount
    - Turn Undead
    - Divine Spells
    - High combat skills
    - High social skills
    It's all applicable in a single character.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    I definitely plan to clear up what a Prestige Class, and what it means to enter one.
    Can't wait to see what you make of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    You're absolutely right. With 50,000 characters per-post restriction, I had to make some compromises, but there's enough in there for people to figure out how to make their vision come alive.
    ... What about Batman?

    More of a Pathfinder thing. But the Investigator is an awesome class that easily gives you Batman vibes.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I just explained in post #10 why the Paladin is incorporated into this project even if not specifically presented.
    - Fear immunity
    - High saves
    - Mount
    - Turn Undead
    - Divine Spells
    - High combat skills
    - High social skills
    It's all applicable in a single character.
    What about Smite Evil? I don't see it anywhere, not even as a feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Can't wait to see what you make of it.
    Well, I'm gonna be a lot more strick about their meaning that's for sure... they are a 10-level class that you can enter into at level 10. Once you enter into them, your locked into that class until your level 20.
    Last edited by Valerem; 2016-08-18 at 03:15 AM.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    10 levels to get into a prestige that you're stuck in forever? That's a terrible middle ground. I don't want to be forced into taking levels into this class forever just because I wanted to give it a shot. What if I don't like it as much as I thought I would?

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    ... What about Batman?
    More of a Pathfinder thing. But the Investigator is an awesome class that easily gives you Batman vibes.

    Not so much AFAICT.
    Batman is a warrior gadgeteer and I don't recall him ever using potions or spells.

    Using the codex, a warrior with a handful of Rogue and Bard levels could be a great Batman – especially with the additional Craft rules.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    What about Smite Evil? I don't see it anywhere, not even as a feat.
    The official Smite Evil poses no more than offensive augmentation. I find the Cleric's "God's Champion" feature a lot more appealing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Well, I'm gonna be a lot more strick about their meaning that's for sure... they are a 10-level class that you can enter into at level 10. Once you enter into them, your locked into that class until your level 20.
    I'm concerned that this will make the classes in your system restrictive in terms of character concept flexibility, and will make PrCs either unappealing or a no-brainer.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Same. Final Fantasy knows how to do "prestige" classes right. You mix together some jobs and you get something beautiful.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by PapaQuackers View Post
    10 levels to get into a prestige that you're stuck in forever? That's a terrible middle ground. I don't want to be forced into taking levels into this class forever just because I wanted to give it a shot. What if I don't like it as much as I thought I would?
    That's an issue for any class in any system, unless the DM allows class-level retraining (not a common thing).
    The best way to avoid such issue is to make all classes fun at all levels, so that taking your class(es) according to personal taste is bound to result in an enjoyable experience.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by PapaQuackers View Post
    Same. Final Fantasy knows how to do "prestige" classes right. You mix together some jobs and you get something beautiful.
    Could you explain this. I know what Final Fantasy is, just want to understand exactly what you mean and how that would apply to D20/D&D 3.5.
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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by PapaQuackers View Post
    10 levels to get into a prestige that you're stuck in forever? That's a terrible middle ground. I don't want to be forced into taking levels into this class forever just because I wanted to give it a shot. What if I don't like it as much as I thought I would?
    I agree with Nonsi... its something that could happen no matter what, for any class in the game. Hence why class-retraining, or just flat out rolling a new character is always an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Not so much AFAICT.
    Batman is a warrior gadgeteer and I don't recall him ever using potions or spells.

    Using the codex, a warrior with a handful of Rogue and Bard levels could be a great Batman – especially with the additional Craft rules.
    Look me in the face, and tell that that Batman would not be an alchemist to some degree.

    In fact, that seems to be something that you don't cover very well, alchemy. Not just the alchemical items, but a mutagen to transform you into a beast temporarily. Or becoming a bomb-maker that specializes in them and dealing damage from afar.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    The official Smite Evil poses no more than offensive augmentation. I find the Cleric's "God's Champion" feature a lot more appealing.
    Mechanically? Sure.

    Fluff wise? Smite Evil is a defining feature of a Paladin. You do NOT have a Paladin if you do not have the ability to SMITE. EVIL!

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I'm concerned that this will make the classes in your system restrictive in terms of character concept flexibility, and will make PrCs either unappealing or a no-brainer.
    It's not a 100% fix sure, but it'll reflect what Prestige Classes are meant to be: Focused classes, that allow people to walk a path that otherwise, they would be unable too. A specialized class, that represents an elite order with unique abilities found nowhere else in the game. A full level 20 class instead of a 10/10 split will be just as powerful, and have strong abilities itself that others cannot. But a PrC will help develop the world, as well as expanding the system in terms of concept flexibility.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Ok, here's what final fantasy did right with prestige classes that D&D I feels thoroughly lacks in but it may also be because of the difference in their base class systems.

    1. Going into your prestige was a rewarding and interesting progression of your class. Even if you'd only taken levels in something like Knight/Squire you could still continue into more interesting jobs like Samurai without jumping through a thousand hoops. It felt like an actual natural progression, not something you had to be thinking about from day 1 in order to get through some fluff requirements.

    2. If you jumped through hoops, the rewards were immense and entertaining. I'm going to use Final Fantasy tactics as an example for this one, two of the most difficult jobs to unlock were the Mime and the Calculator. The Mime required such an extensive amount of effort, but the pay off was worth it. Not because it was the most powerful class in the universe, but because it was engaging and required thought to use. It stuck to it's core principals in all it's applications and made you feel like you'd earned something really special. The calculator is similar, once you've learned pretty much every type of magic you can apply it in ways that you didn't think possible before, but you can't do so with reckless abandon. You had to think. D&D Prestige classes 9/10s are thoughtless fluff, which is fine, but game mechanics are an extension of the game world and should reflect it as such.

    3. There was a little more mystery to it and a sense of excitement when you discovered something you weren't expecting to. This is a limitation of D&D as a material, you can't really surprise yourself with a prestige class in D&D because you need to know exactly what you need to have in order to unlock prestiges. This made prestige classes feel less like a reward and more like a chore/check point. I don't want to feel like I'm doing extra work, I want things that feel like a natural progression in the character I'm making.

    Now these are just my thoughts on the matter but I think I encapsulated the problem pretty well.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    I agree with Nonsi... its something that could happen no matter what, for any class in the game. Hence why class-retraining, or just flat out rolling a new character is always an option.
    I never liked rolling for a new character.
    Reputation, contacts, gear, name, background - you can't take those with you when you dump a character.
    To me, one of the main reasons for RP-ing is getting attached to my character. If characters are replaced w/o a care, a lot it lost in my view.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Look me in the face, and tell that that Batman would not be an alchemist to some degree.

    In fact, that seems to be something that you don't cover very well, alchemy. Not just the alchemical items, but a mutagen to transform you into a beast temporarily. Or becoming a bomb-maker that specializes in them and dealing damage from afar.
    1. Batman wouldn't be Batman w/o Alfred and the people he hires to provide the tech.
    2. Mutagen is from PF. Post #2 quote: "This codex addresses only official 3.5e materials that carry the "Wizards of the Coast" trademark...". I also don't cover d20 Modern or d20 Star Wars. There's a limit to how much one person can devote spare time to a project. This one took more than its share focusing on 3.5e alone. If you'd like to see an Investigator/Alchemist/Summoner/Kineticist or whatever integrated into these rules - by all means you're welcome to try and I'll do my best to assist. For transformation you don't need a new class - a Changeling MoMF could take you a very long way if form shifting is what you're after.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Mechanically? Sure.

    Fluff wise? Smite Evil is a defining feature of a Paladin. You do NOT have a Paladin if you do not have the ability to SMITE. EVIL!
    Fluff wise, Blast the Infidels and Hammer of God - are more "Smite" in spirit each than the official Smite ever was. Smite isn't even on par with the Weapon Focus line - that's a joke for something so "iconic" that's usable on average 2 times per day taking into account that the majority of campaigns never cross 16th level.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    It's not a 100% fix sure, but it'll reflect what Prestige Classes are meant to be: Focused classes, that allow people to walk a path that otherwise, they would be unable too. A specialized class, that represents an elite order with unique abilities found nowhere else in the game. A full level 20 class instead of a 10/10 split will be just as powerful, and have strong abilities itself that others cannot. But a PrC will help develop the world, as well as expanding the system in terms of concept flexibility.
    Something tells me that with the restrictions you're imposing, every time a player comes up with a concept that doesn't have tailor-made classes for, he'll have to invent a new class/PrC. Avoiding that was one of the main design goals of this overhaul project.
    I'm not saying that it's impossible to find character archetypes that are hard to figure out with these rules or that every theoretical archetype is already covered, but the codex provide enough so that most of them are, and the majority of whatever remaining can easily become viable with a handful of feats. I'm willing to assist in edge cases that would require entirely new classes.

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    Question Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    I really like the classes in the fix and really like that they are
    mostly tier 3.

    Just to see if I got this down, since all casters in your fix are tier 2 and all the others are tier 3 then I assume the following classes are tier 3:

    Mage, priest, witch & druid?

    I really like the old school naming scheme :-)

    Any way to make them tier 3?

    I think it could be awesome to use your minimalist fix exclusively
    With tier 3 classes... that way the tier problem goes away.

    Since for example the beguiler is already tier 3 then it could be
    cool to use this class along with the classes you have made that are also tier 3
    Last edited by tsj; 2016-08-20 at 02:28 AM.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    good old batsie as joker says he is vigilante from pathfinder as first mad scientist wizard as VMC last he has social talents allowing loyal alfred to help him and limited leadership to mimic bat clan

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I never liked rolling for a new character.
    Reputation, contacts, gear, name, background - you can't take those with you when you dump a character.
    To me, one of the main reasons for RP-ing is getting attached to my character. If characters are replaced w/o a care, a lot it lost in my view.
    Hey, I never said it was the prefered option. Just that it was an option to keep in mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Fluff wise, Blast the Infidels and Hammer of God - are more "Smite" in spirit each than the official Smite ever was. Smite isn't even on par with the Weapon Focus line - that's a joke for something so "iconic" that's usable on average 2 times per day taking into account that the majority of campaigns never cross 16th level.
    Hey, just because the mechanics of Smite weren't 100% - through Charisma to attack, and +Level to damage is a very potent ability - doesn't mean it is not THE iconic ability of the Paladin.


    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Something tells me that with the restrictions you're imposing, every time a player comes up with a concept that doesn't have tailor-made classes for, he'll have to invent a new class/PrC. Avoiding that was one of the main design goals of this overhaul project.
    I'm not saying that it's impossible to find character archetypes that are hard to figure out with these rules or that every theoretical archetype is already covered, but the codex provide enough so that most of them are, and the majority of whatever remaining can easily become viable with a handful of feats. I'm willing to assist in edge cases that would require entirely new classes.
    You say that. But haven't I already brought up several character concepts that don't fit what you have here?

    Lycanonthorpe Mastery. Batman (Whenever you want an investigator route, or a Vigilante Route), Alchemist. Bomb-Thrower. Summoner. I suppose the Dragonform could be re-fluffed into a mutagen... but you don't have something like the Totemist, a Natural Attack master. And whilst you don't like Psionics... the Psychic Warrior's ability to generate powerful claws to fight with was an awesome part of the class, and you don't have it.

    Heck, one thing neither 3.5 or Pathfinder does well, is being able to control multipule weapons around you effectively. Well, technically DSP does have that now with the Soulknife Armoury, but I remember seeing a pretty good class or PrC's sometime back that did the concept of controlling a sword by your will alone quite effectively.

    People are always going to find concept they are not able to play, and make a class/PrC for it. Your overhaul project does a good job, I'm not going to lie I am very impressed. But there is a lot you haven't touched. So, I think using that as an arguement as to why I should'nt use PrC's the way I'm intending. That it will encourage people to make new classes? It just falls flat...

    Plus. Why would I NOT want an strong homebrew community? Its like a game developer trying to actively sabatoge mod developers. Its counter-productive to the longevity of the game.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by tsj View Post
    Just to see if I got this down, since all casters in your fix are tier 2 and all the others are tier 3 then I assume the following classes are tier 3:

    Mage, priest, witch & druid?
    I'm assuming you mean T2. Yes. Also, seems to me like the Mage is borderline T1, but I haven't found a way to make it a solid T2 w/o hurting it too much.



    Quote Originally Posted by tsj View Post
    I really like the old school naming scheme :-)
    Not sure what "old school naming scheme" means.



    Quote Originally Posted by tsj View Post
    Any way to make them tier 3?
    Yes, but the price will be intolerable in my view.




    Quote Originally Posted by tsj View Post
    I think it could be awesome to use your minimalist fix exclusively
    With tier 3 classes... that way the tier problem goes away.
    I believe there shouldn't be any problem with the proposed classes/changes.



    Quote Originally Posted by tsj View Post
    Since for example the beguiler is already tier 3 then it could be
    cool to use this class along with the classes you have made that are also tier 3
    The official Beguiler lacks character in my view, that's why I made my version of Spellthief, which is not just another school-bound mage.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    good old batsie as joker says he is vigilante from pathfinder as first mad scientist wizard as VMC last he has social talents allowing loyal alfred to help him and limited leadership to mimic bat clan
    Yes. Vigilante seems more in line with the character.

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Hey, just because the mechanics of Smite weren't 100% - through Charisma to attack, and +Level to damage is a very potent ability - doesn't mean it is not THE iconic ability of the Paladin.
    It's beyond my power to help if you're looking for the exact same official ability.
    I found the official Smite lacking, so I replaced it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    You say that. But haven't I already brought up several character concepts that don't fit what you have here?

    Lycanonthorpe Mastery. Batman (Whenever you want an investigator route, or a Vigilante Route), Alchemist. Bomb-Thrower. Summoner. I suppose the Dragonform could be re-fluffed into a mutagen... but you don't have something like the Totemist, a Natural Attack master. And whilst you don't like Psionics... the Psychic Warrior's ability to generate powerful claws to fight with was an awesome part of the class, and you don't have it.
    1. Don't remember Lycanthropy focus being covered very well by 3.5e either. I'll see what I can do about it in the near future.
    2. A Mage conjurer eats the PF Summoner for breakfast.
    3. Already provided a solid build for Batman.
    4. Alchemist, and Bombardier are PF concepts (redirecting you back again to the quote from post #2).
    5. Totemist: Girallon's Blessing grants you extra arms. A similar spell that grants claws can be introduced (then taken later on as Sp/Su ability if you insist).




    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    People are always going to find concept they are not able to play, and make a class/PrC for it.
    … or settle for feats/builds/classcombos that would do at least as good a job as inventing a new class.



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    Plus. Why would I NOT want an strong homebrew community? Its like a game developer trying to actively sabatoge mod developers. Its counter-productive to the longevity of the game.
    Because unless you go commercial, you’re probably not gonna have a community to begin with.
    I'm not saying that adding new classes is wrong, just that people should try to work within the system before they resort to inflating it, and that there should be a compelling reason to add a new class. The last 5 classes in the overhaul project are archetypes that I wanted in it for year – but I didn't add them until I got them figured out correctly, and I only added them because there was no way to emulate their set of abilities by working within the system.

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    Thumbs up Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    @nonsi:

    Ahh yes tier 2...

    With old school naming scheme I was thinking about the class names mage and priest (from previous d&d editions).

    It seems I will need to hunt for alternatives to those classes, especially if mage is tier 1.

    I think that in my case the only way to avoid a wizard class to climb to tier 2 or 1 is to create versions that are bound to a single school like beguiler, dread necromancer and warmage

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I'm not saying that adding new classes is wrong, just that people should try to work within the system before they resort to inflating it and that there should be a compelling reason to add a new class. The last 5 classes in the overhaul project are archetypes that I wanted in it for year – but I didn't add them until I got them figured out correctly, and I only added them because there was no way to emulate their set of abilities by working within the system.
    You said that... but some people, like me? We don't settle for just feats/builds/class combos to get what we want. I want to play Paladin. You say play a Cleric/Warrior. But, that's not a Paladin. I don't have the ability to Smite Evil - and neither Hammer of God or Blast of the Infidels are good replacements fluff wise - I don't see any way for a Cleric/Warrior to get a special mount. I don't see any way to emit a protective aura for my allies...

    I can't play a Totemist, I can't play a Psychic Warrior Claw Master, I can't play a lot of things... and well, PrC's, and extra classes can help open them up. Yeah, I get what you mean. That person should try to work within the system, rather than inflating it. But, considering how difficult it is for any one system to cover character concepts and archetypes, just with feats, builds and class combos alone? I think they should try and make it so that making a new class is not that difficult to do. I mean I get your not going commercial with this or anything... but I think your attempt to crack down on classes isn't really working...

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    Default Re: 3.5e Overhaul – Fixing ALL 3.5e's problems (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    You said that... but some people, like me? We don't settle for just feats/builds/class combos to get what we want. I want to play Paladin. You say play a Cleric/Warrior. But, that's not a Paladin. I don't have the ability to Smite Evil - and neither Hammer of God or Blast of the Infidels are good replacements fluff wise - I don't see any way for a Cleric/Warrior to get a special mount. I don't see any way to emit a protective aura for my allies...
    You see the Paladin role as an embodiment of righteousness. Me, I view it as a divine warrior that can be relevant to most faiths. That's probably the reason why we have different views of Smite. The thing is that you could add a 4th variant ability to God's Champion that grants Cha-bonus to hit and level to damage vs. opposing alignment (with Mr. embodiment of righteousness being a LG Cleric).
    Mount: that's easy... Wild Cohort. Done.
    Aura of Courage: take a look at the Bravery feats (Stand Against the Tide in particular).



    Quote Originally Posted by Valerem View Post
    I can't play a Totemist, I can't play a Psychic Warrior Claw Master, I can't play a lot of things... and well, PrC's, and extra classes can help open them up. Yeah, I get what you mean. That person should try to work within the system, rather than inflating it. But, considering how difficult it is for any one system to cover character concepts and archetypes, just with feats, builds and class combos alone? I think they should try and make it so that making a new class is not that difficult to do. I mean I get your not going commercial with this or anything... but I think your attempt to crack down on classes isn't really working...
    Chakra Binding can be emulated via Bestow Spell-Like Ability and Spell-like to Supernatural Conversion, by restricting to one effect per body slot.
    Extra limbs or clawed limbs can be made available via spells.

    Yes, you can't play several PF-introduced concepts, but as I said, it's only because I haven't gotten to them yet. Of all that I've encountered so far, only the Time Thief merits a new class in this system - which gave birth to the Time Bender, given spellbound chronomancy never felt right to me.

    The only difficulty about adding new classes to this system is making them Balanced + Interesting + Justifiable at the same time. There's nothing in the mechanics themselves that makes it any more difficult than official 3.5.

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