Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Popping in here because I noticed WW discussion, and I've got a little bit of experience on that now, via another forum. I highly endorse QuickTopic; it lets players with roles easily talk about their planned actions, it lets the Wolves have a private discussion chat, it lets you set up a chat for dead characters even.

It would be a while before I can organise a game or several, due to RL over the next month, but what would people think of a One Night Werewolf series being run on the forum?

I'm thinking it could be episodic as when played fo' realsies, with different roles introduced or removed according to familiarity and experience and feedback, but also potentially a league format, where the role-set is continuous across a number of rounds with the same or similar players, with points awarded for victory in a given round.*

Support? Criticism? Jeering and throwing fruit?

* minimum number of rounds to have status, results aren't counted until player's third loss/first win, different points for winning as Town/Pack/Other, potential bonus points for particular actions, etc.

I saw this tried, and it more or less ended poorly. Part of it, I think, is that One Night Werewolf thrives on the fact that you resolve everything at a blistering-fast pace when you're playing face-to-face. When we played on a forum, people were able to analyze everything in exacting detail, and the discussion fell pretty flat. People started chain-claiming roles and getting testy, and the whole thing wasn't hugely interesting.

That is, I think it's not well-suited to forum play for the same reason that I think WW works better on forums than in-person: the format rewards long, drawn-out discussion, which is pretty anathema to the way that One-Night WW works.

I don't think it's impossible to make it work, but...you'll have to figure out a fix to that problem somehow.

[Ramsus]

@Citizen Nij: I'd like to add that weekend and week are not good time setups as some people here are basically just not here/have less time on the weekends and an entire week for an entire phase is going to end up with people sitting on their thumbs for 3-4 days with nothing to do except possibly increase the chances of circular arguments that go nowhere. Currently I find 3 day phases to be what seems to work for most people (as it's not too slow for the really active people and it's not too fast for the busier folks).

Considering CarpeGuitarrem's testimony, it might be better to think up some kind of variation that might work better.

Also as it turns out a friend of mine had just told me about that variant but didn't use that exact name, then again he didn't mention some of the roles you did either. *shrug* I found the idea of the Robber and the Insomniac interesting though and would certainly think it would be fun to work similar roles into some kind of game.


@DungeonMaster77: Not that I want to get involved in your discussion too much (since I don't currently much care to play Classic with or without PMs), but I notice that you're speaking in a way that implies you think you have some kind of ownership or a more important say than anyone else here as regards Classic. Which stopped being the case the moment you stopped being the one to run it. You don't have to agree with Saposhiente or anyone with how it should be played, but neither do they have to agree with you. In fact it strikes me as ridiculous to treat this as an issue of how it "should" be played at all as doing the same thing over and over is boring (and likely the reasons for the changes that happened). There's nothing wrong with going back and revisiting the original style, but that doesn't mean we have to drop every other variation either.

Instead of "leaving Classic for the purists" (which would be who exactly anyhow? I don't know anyone aside from you here who only wants to play original style no PM games), you could more easily just make a point of the fact that you're running the game whatever way it is you're running it. Which is what's going to happen whether people say that or not as unless you take over narrating every classic from now on until the end of time someone else will come along and want to make some variation on it (whether this includes PMs, the Devil acting differently, Seer getting more/less info, masons or no masons, scry interference of one sort or another, etc). It's all well and good to say "I'll be running it this way, what do people think of X choice?" It's not however acceptable to tell everyone how it should be run in situations where you're not running it.

[Lex-Kat]

To everyone involved in the Devil discussion: I do believe that is what is being said, roughly. I doubt DungeonMaster77 is implying that he's going to force anyone who is running "Classic" to do things his way, but that it is how he wishes to run his game.

The discussion begins with others trying to tell him how to run the current Classic. It's grown from just asking and suggesting to downright telling him he is wrong, which I unfortunately did stick my little pixie nose in where it didn't belong.


DM77 has made his argument, we have made ours. If he doesn't wish for the Devil to be able to communicate with the Wolves, then so be it. Let's drop this already, please.


Specifically to DM77: I like the idea that the Devil at least knows who the Wolves are, but they don't know him.

[Mordokai]

That said, the only thing I can conceivably do to make it any more balanced, without giving the game to the wolves, is let the Devil know who the wolves are, but not vice versa. I can see where he/she would know who works for him/her but not vice versa.

How does that work for everyone?

I'm kinda loath to stick my fingers into this whole debate and I'm probably missing something(seriously, very likely), but wouldn't that mean that wolves and devil would get into contact the minute the game starts? The devil simply contacts the wolves and gives them all their names, thereby proving who he is 100%.

EDIT: right, no PM game. Disregard this.

[banjo1985]

Classic has always had the same rules, hasn't it? That's why it's Classic. The rules are by no means perfect, but they are basic, which was the selling point of keeping the classic form going. We've got dozens of other games where the rules can be argued and experimented with. Just seems daft to question Classic rules when that's how they've always been.

[DungeonMaster77]

@Ramsus - Banjo seriously just made my point. If you don't believe me, go back to when "Classic" was first defined. I'm not saying it has to be run *my* way or any which way, but it *is* the point of having "Classic" to begin with. The idea of Classic was started by B-Man and Lucky.

Quoted by Lucky:

We go back to the basics, take away all the added rules and just have a good, light-hearted game of werewolves. This will run alongside the main stream, so we will have this one which will remain the same game, while the other one continues to change everytime.

The whole POINT of Classic is to throw out all of the other stuff. That stuff was for Werewolf and the variants. Classic was meant to mimic the party game as closely as possible. Thus, the rule about No PMs and the fact that the Devil can't communicate with the wolves. Separate role, no communication.

This is how I will run Classic. Thank you, Lex.

@Mordokai: good to see you! Basically, the Devil will get the list of the names of the wolves, but the rest is up to him/her to influence the vote.

Speaking of variants, I've had one I made up and played with my military buddies when we weren't getting shot at, that basically just changes the genre, but I found out that they already did that, and the game was called "Resistance." Granted Resistance has some more rules (like cards that allow you to see another person's roles and such), but the way the game goes you don't even need a narrator. If any of you haven't seen it or checked it out, I would suggest it.

[Mordokai]

@Mordokai: good to see you! Basically, the Devil will get the list of the names of the wolves, but the rest is up to him/her to influence the vote.

I am honored by one of the legends of WW knowing my name, when I have no idea how that would have happened

[Citizen Nij]

Spoilered for brevity in the thread.

Spoiler: CarpeGuitarrem

Show

... snip ...

Regarding the level of analysis: I did think that would be an issue, especially if certain combinations of the strong Town roles are in play. I would try to counterbalance this by strengthening the ability of the Wolves to mix up information well, but also add in another faction (or three - some interesting homebrew roles up my sleeve which can be adapted...) to make it less binary than "I'm Town, they're opposing me/they're highly suspicious, therefore they're Wolf, my vote is settled".

Spoiler: Ramsus

Show

@Citizen Nij: I'd like to add that weekend and week are not good time setups as some people here are basically just not here/have less time on the weekends and an entire week for an entire phase is going to end up with people sitting on their thumbs for 3-4 days with nothing to do except possibly increase the chances of circular arguments that go nowhere. Currently I find 3 day phases to be what seems to work for most people (as it's not too slow for the really active people and it's not too fast for the busier folks).

The weekend phases only require one post from each player with an active role, and often not every player has one. Because there's a narrator managing the game, it means that actions can be sent whenever there's a chance, and then the narrator can perform them appropriately, so the entire group doesn't have to wait for "their turn" in order.

Of course "weekend" could be extended to mean "Saturday through Monday". Then the "week" is Tuesday through Friday - which being four days allows enough discussion to occur.

I can understand why it's better to limit the length of longform game discussions so as to keep things moving (and since there's a cycle of day-night-day, nobody is often seriously hampered by posting at the end of one day as opposed to the start of the next). But for 1NW you have all the discussion in one go, and that's it. It may be that players post on the first day and think things are resolved, only to come back later and find everything altered, but without any chance to create meaningful input. So having a little more time to ensure nobody is caught out by major changes I think, might serve to avoid people getting frustrated.

Spoiler: General

Show

Other things that would serve to make the game more suitable:

• additional factions beyond simple Town and Wolves. Makes straightforward analysis less of an all-out destroyer of the Wolves' hiding
• strengthening the Wolves: relative to what would be considered 'balance' for a RL game
• removing the most problematic Town roles: for example, in any game we play with Robber, the Robber is 99% to win by simply lying about who they swapped with.
• including additional roles: some of which are 'original', some of which are altered for balance and flavour, others wholly fabricated (extra ideas welcome!)

Thoughts much appreciated. I'd like to make this a game that works as much as possible given the constraints of PBP, not just transplant the standard game and try to force-fit it, so if something can be excised or added or modded to do that, it's a bonus.

[Ramsus]

Personally, if you're going to do some form of it, I think it should include the Robber (or an altered Robber) as that seems like one of the most amusing roles in the game.

[BasketOfPuppies]

Personally, if you're going to do some form of it, I think it should include the Robber (or an altered Robber) as that seems like one of the most amusing roles in the game.

[is noob] what's the robber?

[TherianTheorist]

IIRC: Robber lets you "steal" someone else's role, usually passing the robber status to them?

So it's sort of like being dealt an old maid.

[Ramsus]

Indeed. Although at the time I made that post I'd been mistaking it for the Troublemaker, which apparently lets you swap two other roles in the game.

[DungeonMaster77]

For those interested, recruiting for Classic is going well, and I've gotten PMs from many of the veterans.

@Mordokai - You are one of my veterans as far back as I can remember...before they made the Werewolf/Werewolf Classic distinction, I believe. As for being a legend...well...I just wanted what Mr. Gygax wanted: to be remembered as the guy who really enjoyed playing games and sharing his knowledge and his fun pastimes with everybody else.

As for the Devil issue, well, I found this. This is supposedly referenced off of another site dated in 2010. In any case, this person's rules mimic the originals (for what Classic was intended to do, i.e. mimic the RL party game). The rules for the Devil character are there. For those too lazy to click on the link:

Devil

The devil has the same powers as the seer (she gets to find out the identity of one person per night), but is on the werewolf team. The devil wins if the werewolves win, and loses otherwise. The devil counts as neither a wolf nor a villager for victory purposes; for example, if there are 6 players left, made up of 2 wolves, 1 devil, and 3 villagers, the game does not end. This also means that the devil loses if all wolves are killed (she can't continue to "represent" the werewolf team by herself).

Also note that the devil does not initially know who the werewolves are, nor do they know who she is. The devil can of course find out who the wolves are if she is lucky enough to identify them. She may then be able to clue them in that she is the devil, by making subtle hints during the day -- or she may not, depending on how sensitive the wolves are to her signals.

The moderator should be especially alert when a seer and devil are both present. In this situation, the moderator should first ask the devil to open her eyes but not pick a target, just so that the moderator can ascertain who the devil is. The moderator should then have the devil close her eyes and allow the seer to open her eyes and pick a target. Then the moderator can go back and allow the devil to pick someone to identify. This way, if the seer attempts to identify the devil, or vice versa, the moderator can tell them the correct role.

[Ramsus]

That would be a pretty crummy role in practice. Any clues you give out in a public thread are more likely to be picked up by town as there's just more people on that side. So you'd basically be a liability to the wolf team, both in that you could wind up giving them away on accident while trying (and most likely failing) to be useful, and because if they hit you with a kill they essentially just wasted a night.

I've never really understood this idea that "the first idea someone had for how to do something is clearly the best". Sure, you could run the devil like that in a game. But you'd basically be doing it out of sheer refusal to admit that improvements of time are the reason nobody runs the devil that way and you'd be intentionally punishing the wolves (and whoever the unlucky soul is who got picked to be the devil).

[Saposhiente]

Why do you want to change this again? You'd rather have the "original" iPhone? This isn't even anywhere close to the original; the game was invented in 1986. By 2010 I expect every simple Devil version has been tried somewhere; the version you quote is just some guy's opinion. Rules should be judged on their merits, not their age. Rules like not allowing Devil to count as team Wolf--wasting time on days that are almost always automatic wins for wolf, forcing weird sacrifice plays, etc--make me doubt the merits of this variant.

[DungeonMaster77]

@Saposhiente - First and foremost, your last post was really trite, and seriously, I don't mind a good-natured debate on rules, but this is getting ridiculous.

That said, Ramsus makes a good point, as does another who PMd me regarding this. For those interested parties, see post #45 here. This is my last say on this matter, and I think the dead horse has been kicked enough.

[Lex-Kat]

Saposhiente is a good player, with a good mind. But he can't seem to help being trite and a bit confrontational at times.

Thank you for reexamining your decision. I know I can live with this Devil. We can at the very least play it and see how the game works out before discussing it any further, agreed? *Looks to her fellow gamers, hopefully*

[Legato Endless]

Saposhiente is a good player, with a good mind. But he can't seem to help being trite and a bit confrontational at times.

Thank you for reexamining your decision. I know I can live with this Devil. We can at the very least play it and see how the game works out before discussing it any further, agreed? *Looks to her fellow gamers, hopefully*

I'm not sure if of the dozen adjectives I'd use to describe Sapo and her style, 'trite' would be in them. But I'm prone to semantic nitpicking.

In any event, I'm hyped to see a game narrated by a veteran, so this sounds awesome.

Let's play the game and review afterward.

[Cyber Punk]

A heads-up, everyone. I finally created the new instance of Circle Of Assassins I wanted to create. The subtitle: Prisoners of War.

Theme is a prison deathmatch.

I also edited the OP, based on Lex-Kat's own.

[Lex-Kat]

Did you PM Haruki to let him know it is awaiting approval?

[Ramsus]

So when are you going to start recruiting Lex?

[Lex-Kat]

Go ahead and start yours. I.... kinda forgot I had a _{game coming up}.

[Ramsus]

lol that was not any of the answers I was expecting. Ok I guess I'll put mine up sometime soon (probably not today).

[DungeonMaster77]

Recruiting for the next Werewolf Classic game ends 11:59 pm CST tomorrow night, with me getting the game set up (PM's and such sent out) Sunday, and the game beginning on Monday.

[Saposhiente]

I'd like to reserve the next available spot for Dream WW (co-narrated by special guest), though depending on how quickly we get ready I might be interested in stealing the spot of anyone who isn't prepared to start their game on time.

This is gonna be a good one. Stay tuned.

[Logic]

I'd like to reserve the next available spot for Dream WW (co-narrated by special guest), though depending on how quickly we get ready I might be interested in stealing the spot of anyone who isn't prepared to start their game on time.

This is gonna be a good one. Stay tuned.

If my game is not ready (and I highly suspect it won't be) I bequeath my spot to you. Sound good?

[Saposhiente]

That does sound good--I'll see where we are in a week from now before finalizing the schedule.

[Duck999]

I'd like to reserve the next available spot for Dream WW (co-narrated by special guest), though depending on how quickly we get ready I might be interested in stealing the spot of anyone who isn't prepared to start their game on time.

This is gonna be a good one. Stay tuned.

Is this the triple voting villagers with two lives? I know that was brought up as some dream thing a while ago.

[Lex-Kat]

Dream WW has been added to the list, to start sometime between 13^th-26^th of September.

[Saposhiente]

Is this the triple voting villagers with two lives? I know that was brought up as some dream thing a while ago.

Yes, it has more wolves than villagers. Its complexity level is the same as Classic, and I have a really interesting story in the works.