Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

[Lady Serpentine]

Yes, it has more wolves than villagers. Its complexity level is the same as Classic, and I have a really interesting story in the works.

I seem to recall our not getting along particularly well a few times when we played, but I've gotta admit that this does sound pretty awesome.

[Ramsus]

Fortunately you only have to get along a very minimal amount with someone narrating compared to playing with them. Most people, with no more than one exception I can name, try their best to be impartial as narrator.

Edit: Also hey again C'nor, where'd you go?

[Lady Serpentine]

Fortunately you only have to get along a very minimal amount with someone narrating compared to playing with them. Most people, with no more than one exception I can name, try their best to be impartial as narrator.

The issue was arguments with them anyhow, so yeah, not gonna be an issue.

Edit: Also hey again C'nor, where'd you go?

The comp I was on broke and I lost the flashdrive I was using for werewolf stuff.

[DungeonMaster77]

Hey all, due to an unexpected computer issue, I was unable to get things started or PM's sent out for Classic last night as planned. I will have everything resolved as of today, and PMs sent out by this evening.

[Saposhiente]

I seem to recall our not getting along particularly well a few times when we played, but I've gotta admit that this does sound pretty awesome.

I don't remember this at all. I do have an aggressive playstyle, and I often make strong claims about people simply because that's the best way to convince others--nuanced, calmer statements may be more accurate, but they're not as exciting to read and many people need an emotional stance to understand a debate--so whatever it was, please know that it's nothing personal. You're a good player, and I'd be happy to have you in the game.

[DungeonMaster77]

Well, then. That makes so much more sense. I retract any and all statements calling your comments trite. my humblest apologies, Sapo.

[Lady Serpentine]

I don't remember this at all. I do have an aggressive playstyle, and I often make strong claims about people simply because that's the best way to convince others--nuanced, calmer statements may be more accurate, but they're not as exciting to read and many people need an emotional stance to understand a debate--so whatever it was, please know that it's nothing personal. You're a good player, and I'd be happy to have you in the game.

In fairness, I think I also had an issue with Ramsus from the same game; things got rather heated at one point and it ended badly for all sides. But yeah, I don't have a particular problem with you over it or anything. Just a toooouch wary, though not enough to stop me joining games you're in. You are, after all, a good player, and I've had games with you since. So, yeah, shouldn't be an issue - it was more meant as a 'I recall something having happened but I am not going to worry about it further'; sorry for being unclear.

[Ramsus]

If you had an issue with me, this is the first I've heard of it. Unless you mean you had an issue with something that happened that involved me and you didn't say anything. In which case, yeah I wouldn't have heard of it. Also not exactly sure that would count as an issue "with" me at all since there wasn't a direct you/me connection I had a choice in participating in.

[Lady Serpentine]

...welp. I think I'll just vanish again, with my luck the next clarification I try for is going to upset several people somehow. Never mind.

[Aventine]

...welp. I think I'll just vanish again, with my luck the next clarification I try for is going to upset several people somehow. Never mind.

I am deeply offended that you would just vanish like this.
And I count as several people...somehow

[Duck999]

...welp. I think I'll just vanish again, with my luck the next clarification I try for is going to upset several people somehow. Never mind.

Don't. Stay and have fun with us! Please...

[AvatarVecna]

I seem to recall having a vague disagreement with you (C'nor) in some previous game, but the memory doesn't seem to fill me with rage, so it's probably not that important. It's all just games. Fun games to play with fun people.

[DungeonMaster77]

Just a question: If I shoot out a PM to somebody and have a recipient in the "To" section, and have recipients in the "BCC" sections, do the people in the "BCC" section see who the message was originally to?

EDIT: PM's are sent out, with 1 exception, and I hate to call him out, but I have no other way to get a hold of him, as his inbox is full:

MORDOKAI: Please clear out your inbox! I have a message to send to you, and cannot do so!

If anybody hangs out with him in any other thread, please give him my message.

I also will re-Edit this post when I get the new Classic Thread up.

I submitted the new thread, but it is awaiting approval from a Mod:

PLEASE, OH GREAT AND POWERFUL MODS, APPROVE THIS HUMBLE FORUM POSTER'S THREAD!! WE BESEECH YOU, IN ORDER THAT WE MAY PLAY WEREWOLF CLASSIC!!

[Ramsus]

Just to check, I'm good to start up recruiting now? Wanted to wait for DungeonMaster's game to finish recruiting before I started.

[DungeonMaster77]

Well, I'm done with recruiting, so if that's all you were waiting on, then you are good on that front.

[DungeonMaster77]

I am sorry to double post, but this deserves it's own post and not an edit...

I cannot believe what is going on in Classic, and what I had to say. I have NEVER thought that I would have to stop this kind of behavior. I have gotten multiple email and PM complaints about this, and worse, am being told that this is not new and is an ongoing issue, with some players promising never to play again (ones who played since the beginning), and others saying it is the reason they refused to join. I am so disappointed that this is what has become of the Werewolf game. As I said in my "in-game" post, WW is supposed to be fun. What has happened?

[Saposhiente]

I'm going to assume that this is about me because I'm the one who has been talking the most.

You know what I'm tired of right now? Passive aggression. I'm tired of going along, playing the game to the best of my ability, showing others how they can improve their gameplay, and being constantly menaced by a formless, faceless cloud of anger and threats to leave, usually channeled through the narrator so that they can complain without standing up for themselves. I'm always left on my own to wonder whether it's just a few people who can't handle the pressure or a serious problem that needs to be publicly addressed. I can't determine whether I should change nor to what degree because I have no way to evaluate the validity nor the importance of these complaints, nor can I negotiate any sort of compromise. We can't solve this problem because you're not talking to me, and instead just menacing me with complaints to the narrator. Stop it. We can talk about this like adults.

What are we trying to accomplish in the game? In my mind, you must play to win, because that is the structure of the game; if you do not play to win, the whole experience collapses into a meaningless pile of idle chatter and popularity contests. If we do not play to win, I am not interested in playing. But that does not mean we cannot agree to a gentleman's code that limits our playing to win, so long as we are careful not to disrupt the gameplay or leave important strategies in the hands of coincidence. Or if we determine that our differences are irreconcilable, we could have games be divided by how seriously they are to be played, so that our different styles can coexist separately but peacefully. But none of these settlements nor any others I have not yet thought of will be reached by being too cowardly to complain to my face.

If you want to redefine Werewolf, that's fine. Tell me about it, and we can have a proper debate. Bring forth the opening arguments!

[AvatarVecna]

I am sorry to double post, but this deserves it's own post and not an edit...

I cannot believe what is going on in Classic, and what I had to say. I have NEVER thought that I would have to stop this kind of behavior. I have gotten multiple email and PM complaints about this, and worse, am being told that this is not new and is an ongoing issue, with some players promising never to play again (ones who played since the beginning), and others saying it is the reason they refused to join. I am so disappointed that this is what has become of the Werewolf game. As I said in my "in-game" post, WW is supposed to be fun. What has happened?

Some people can't have fun unless they're winning. The high level of competitiveness results in roleplaying being a rarity rather than the norm. There are multiple people who have explicitly stated that their playstyle basically amounts to shouting insulting accusations at other players to provoke a reaction so that they can read a person better.

I haven't personally been playing around here too long (maybe 6 months?) and in some of my early games, I tried to test out a couple different playstyles. On of them was basically me throwing my hands in the air and screaming "screw you all, I'm just gonna have fun messing around", and the response I got was a few long posts berating me for it and some white text telling me to screw off if I wasn't going to play the game seriously. Of all of this, that last bit really got under my skin, because up to that point, a constant refrain had been "I wish more people would play WW around here, I don't know why they don't play"; hearing that several times over the course of a couple months, and then seeing someone tell a new player experimenting with the game to get good or get out brought me within an inch of quitting.

[Saposhiente]

My first question to anybody who would like Werewolf to be roleplay-focused: For you, what is the purpose of playing under the Werewolf structure rather than simply participating in freeform roleplay?

[Ramsus]

Ok read over the entire thread to see what's going on.

I should point out that that's hardly the worst that's occurred around here with almost nobody caring enough to prevent it from happening again and again (no matter how hard I beg people). But, you asked a question, which I will assume wasn't hypothetical, and since I'm not actually involved for once I can give an unbiased answer. (Or rather, people can't accuse me of having a bias against anyone in particular because of X theoretical in-game reason.)

First I'd just like to say that man am I glad I didn't sign up for that game. The drama would probably be even worse and now I can actually point to a game where this stuff happens as evidence that this kind of thing has nothing to do with me and people can stop acting like it does. (Which would be great since that would stop encouraging people from using the tactic of creating drama intentionally to gain an advantage when I'm in the game.)

So what I see here is mainly that you have a good number of players who have at one point or another ceased to see the value in being nice to other people. (That sounds kind of mean, but I don't have any other accurate way of putting it.) This is hardly new for any of those behaving that way. It's also hardly new that the community doesn't do anything to discourage this, no matter how far those people go. The later is actually the bigger problem, since generally people are not as critical of their own behavior as they should be without encouragement to do so. I've tried time and again to get people in a general sense to tell people certain kinds of behavior isn't ok, but a lot of people seem to be non-confrontational to an extreme degree or are just apathetic to anything negative that doesn't directly impact them in the most obvious fashion. As I predicted quite a while ago, the lack of community response to poor behavior has resulted in the idea that pretty much any behavior is acceptable.

Of course that all sounds way harsher than is really warranted for how relatively tame what's going on in your game is. It's just the underlying issue and there's no way to examine the game without pointing that out. It's also entirely possible that people are learning lessons on their own, as I don't actually see any character assassination or flagrant personal attacks. Of course it's still only day 1...

If you want a more detailed explanation of what's going on you basically have to look at the personality of each person in the game. Some of these personalities involve viewpoints on why/how the game is played which would have made this result obvious if someone had done so from the start. However it's probably best I don't even come close to trying to examine each person in the game here as I can't see that doing anything but making things worse.

I also spotted that there's the additional tangle of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" traps going on and the typical annoyed response to those kinds of traps which tend to make things worse. I can personally attest to how frustrating being on the receiving end is (over and over and over...) and that any response with any emotion in it is going to result in it just getting worse. Which basically results in a thing that's just super annoying with almost no way to get better unless it's just dropped or not done in the first place (unless you're a robot who can avoid being annoyed on being on the receiving end I guess). It would do this community a lot of good if people could avoid the idea of people being "too defensive", some people (like myself) tend to respond to everything said to them. When you do that, there is no possible way to not look "too defensive" if that's what someone is trying to find and the less the other people in the game understand that the more and more aggravating it gets. And it's ridiculous to ask people to randomly not respond to things. So yeah, there's never any good way of handling this once someone starts it up, so people should just stop doing it.

[Eldritch Knight]

If you want to redefine Werewolf, that's fine. Tell me about it, and we can have a proper debate. Bring forth the opening arguments!

Sapo, look at the previous games, and compare them with the most recent ones. There is a noticeable difference in both tone and level of participation. The whole point of a game is to have fun. Yes, you're supposed to try to win, but if it starts feeling like a game of Monopoly, it's being played wrong. It's supposed to be a social game - so most of the fun for people is in the interaction with and manipulation of the other players. This is the aspect that has not been present in the most recent games, and that is probably why there have been a number of people who do not feel the game is as enjoyable as it once was.

[Saposhiente]

Ramsus, I am asking for solutions. Players behave as they do because that is their strategy for fulfilling their purpose of Werewolf. What is at fault, the strategy, or the purpose, and why? What is your purpose of Werewolf, and how can this be reconciled with people who take other purposes of Werewolf?

[Ramsus]

Ok I don't think you guys talking here at each other is going to be super productive. As I'm not a mod, I'm by the rules basically not allowed to tell you guys you should stop.

I will respond to some stuff EK just said as it's not related to the events specifically.
1) Having less people around who play with less hostility is actually making the problem worse. The less people around who disagree with behaviors means that the people engaging in them get less and less negative response from it and get the message that what they're doing is perfectly acceptable. Instead of people leaving, what we need is people putting some effort in to tolerate these things and stick around long enough to tell people what they don't like about what people are doing.

2) The people who are around really need to stop being afraid of confrontation and clearly say something when they think something is a problem. And I mean to that person, in public when reasonable so other people can contribute to the discussion. Complaining to the narrator about someone's behavior doesn't actually go anywhere towards fixing the behavior since that person will never know exactly what the issue is. Rather it just creates an image of "people don't like me and talk about me behind my backs, because why? No idea. I guess they're just mean/dumb."

3) How is monopoly neither fun nor a social game? I think you're playing monopoly wrong dude.

Edit: @Sapo: I wasn't talking about people's game strategies. I was talking about their behavior as people as relates to other people as human beings. The later thing is where we have a problem. It's a good thing for people not to all play the game the same. However that doesn't justify going to any and all means to win.

Edit 2: If you're looking for a solution that results in people not perceiving what you say as more negative than what you mean.... I don't have any quick fix for that. Hell, I have the same problem. Only thing you can do is try to seem less abrasive and explain time and again what's going on in your head when you say things and hope people can understand a bit. In my opinion you've improved somewhat since when we first met. That said, it's a never ending struggle for some of us and you just have to accept that.

[Eldritch Knight]

Play it with a Scottish Business Major.....

[DungeonMaster77]

@Sapo: Look, I was trying to address the more broad spectrum of problem, and I am not pointing fingers for a reason. I really feel that your response is over-defensive, likely due to the fact that you feel attacked. Here's the deal: this game is just that, a game. Yes, there is the overall goal to "win" or whatever, and I am not "redefining" anything. This is what Werewolf was since day 1, over 9 years ago!!! As EK points out, it is a social game that is meant to be light in spirit, gruesome to the point of humor, and fun for everyone, regardless of win or loss. There is no need for debate in this, as this has been the standard understanding.

As EK said:

Sapo, look at the previous games, and compare them with the most recent ones. There is a noticeable difference in both tone and level of participation. The whole point of a game is to have fun. Yes, you're supposed to try to win, but if it starts feeling like a game of Monopoly, it's being played wrong. It's supposed to be a social game - so most of the fun for people is in the interaction with and manipulation of the other players. This is the aspect that has not been present in the most recent games, and that is probably why there have been a number of people who do not feel the game is as enjoyable as it once was.

Yes, EK is an "Old Veteran," and he would know the history behind the WW games on these boards as he was present at the first one and can attest to how it was and how it has evolved.

The issue is that the overall tone of the game, as is, is beginning to go into a bad direction, and I want it nipped in the bud, to prevent it from becoming something it shouldn't.

All of your comments like this:

You know what I'm tired of right now? Passive aggression. I'm tired of going along, playing the game to the best of my ability, showing others how they can improve their gameplay, and being constantly menaced by a formless, faceless cloud of anger and threats to leave, usually channeled through the narrator so that they can complain without standing up for themselves.

They are uncalled for. People have the right to complain to the person Narrating the game, to the Mods, and to whomever they want when they believe somebody is stepping over the line of what is and is not acceptable behavior.

In all reality, I was trying to type up a PM to you to have this conversation in private, but your comment here has forced me to speak my peace. I don't want you to quit playing, and I don't want you to stop trying. I want you to step back and think about how you come across to others when you post.

[AvatarVecna]

For me at least, WW isn't supposed to be pure rules or pure roleplay, but a mix of the two, otherwise we could just completely dispense with the story and just go off the rules. Games where people just try to find the wolves are fun enough, but the absolute, hands-down funnest games of WW I ever played were three in a row with a wonderful group of gamers who were just sleep-deprived enough to make things interesting.

The first game started around 10 pm or so, and the previous day of the Con had tired people out; I was a Villager. The first thing we did Day 1 was elect a new mayor; the second was to hold a funeral for our fallen brother (cries of "do it for Scotty" and "Scotty shall be avenged" became running themes that night up to and including the very last round of the third game). Alas, Lady Luck was not on our side that day: our Seer was the second-to-last to die, and we still never found a wolf. But throughout the entire game, we all had a blast electing new sheriffs and mayors whenever the old one died. Oh, we looked for the wolves, and discussed people's tells, but we never got the right person.

The second, I was one of the two wolves; things proceeded pretty similarly. At the beginning of Day 2, the narrator accidentally reported the wrong person as having been killed in the night, and the other wolf reacted with the shock everyone else did, but also with a hint of anger; multiple people in my sub-group were suspicious of them, but weren't sure why, so I brought up his rather peculiar reaction, as well as a couple other things from the previous day (he was being a really obvious wolf, AFAICT). Sure enough, when my sub-group presented these facts (someone else did the talking, but I was mentioned as having brought up a fact or two), the whole town almost unanimously voted for him, he flipped wolf, and my sub-group (including me) were hailed as heroes. That game was fun because I got to lead the town on a merry little chase, and we ended up lynching the seer halfway through. Unfortunately, the seer had cleared both the people next to him, and had identified me at some point; I have no idea why they didn't try to claim seer and cry wolf, but they didn't. They're buddies did the next day, though, and I ended up dying the day after that...with just me and two guys left (one seer-cleared).

The third game, I was a seer. We did our funeral, and made sub-groups, and I cleared a couple people. We got lucky and lynched a wolf the first day, and then a couple people died. By that time, though, I'd cleared half the people in my sub-group; at that point, I revealed my seer status to my sub-group, and we announced to the town as a whole that our seer had cleared two people (who were both identified). That night, I died...leaving only two suspects: the uncleared members of the sub-group. Both died, and one flipped wolf, and that was the game.

All three were an absolute riot to play in, because we really got into the spirit of the story. You don't need to go quite that far every time, certainly; there's games I've played here that were mostly just wolf hunts that were fun enough. My problem isn't that WW games are just Town vs Wolf competitions, it's that you, Saposhiente, seem to continuously insist on turning that competition into far more of a BIG DEAL^TM than it is; I've seen players complain about other player's playstyles, but you're the only person I see do so every game, and you're the only person I've seen who does so in what comes across as an incredibly mean-spirited manner every single time. I don't think you're being intentionally antagonistic, but that's how it's coming across to me.

I'll fully admit that I tend to react a bit emotionally to being pushed like that, and I'd argue that it may or may not speak to the thickness of my skin, but that doesn't give you an excuse to give me bruises in an attempt to "toughen me up". I'll fully admit that my playstyle is often, whether intentionally or not, anti-village; I'm often prone to logical fallacies, and my plans are more often than not pretty stupid by this board's standards. But while I've had numerous players complain about my playstyle both directly and indirectly, antagonistically and passive-aggressively, you are the only one who's made me feel worthless for them over and over. I came here to have fun, and all I got from you was bullied, or so it came across. Over time, my style has taken a step or two in the right direction, but it's because some players were patient enough to explain why I was wrong in a way that didn't just amount to "you stupid piece of ****, why are you even playing if you suck so much, here's how to play much better; I don't care if you understand why it works, it just works so do it".

[Logic]

Werewolf is a game, and I expect most people to play to win, just as I play to win, precisely because it is a game. Despite that, there are plenty of ways to accomplish that objective and not ruin the fun for others. If the only way one can have fun playing werewolf is by winning, then at the very least one can do is be courteous enough to not ruin the fun of others.

Werewolf has a few flaws, one being deception (no one likes to be lied to) and the other elimination play. With elimination play, some one or some group decide to cut you off from additional playing, and that has a tendency to hurt feelings.

Those being said, here are the following tactics/ideas I personally disagree with.

• "Vanillagers are expendable." - We play the game to play, not to be randomly killed off. Town loses just a little bit with each lynched villager, and a villager is a smaller loss than any power role. But that doesn't make their contribution as a villager negligible just because they don't have some kind of fancy powers. I find that train of thought to be counter-productive to the overall goal of winning the game.
• Provoking someone solely for a more "readable" response - I chalk this up to poor sportsmanship. I've never thought this was a good tactic in any game of any kind.

I thought I had a longer list when I started typing, but I guess I finished my rant early.

[Ramsus]

I was in the midst of typing up some more responses and.... frankly this is getting out of hand. Even the narrator of the game is now engaging in some poor behaviors. In my personal opinion, as a not-mod who is by the rules not allowed to try and stop fights because that's a rule for some reason, it would really be a good idea for all of you guys to just go do something else for a little bit and maybe come back and see if things look less extreme if you try taking other people's perspectives as best you can.

Edit: If anyone, for some inexplicable reason, would like my personal opinion on anything feel free to shoot me a PM. But I'm fairly likely to say things anyone involved in this doesn't want to hear since I think pretty much everyone in that game has made some errors in judgement.

[Eldritch Knight]

I just hope this doesn't lead to Werewolf being banned from these forums.

[Ramsus]

That seems unlikely and a nonsensical and overblown response to the issue. Which, knowing human behavior, completely validates your concern.