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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Eldritch Knight's Avatar

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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsus View Post
    That seems unlikely and a nonsensical and overblown response to the issue. Which, knowing human behavior, completely validates your concern.
    Wait, you mean you actually expect humans to be rational? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsus View Post
    I also spotted that there's the additional tangle of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" traps going on and the typical annoyed response to those kinds of traps which tend to make things worse. I can personally attest to how frustrating being on the receiving end is (over and over and over...) and that any response with any emotion in it is going to result in it just getting worse. Which basically results in a thing that's just super annoying with almost no way to get better unless it's just dropped or not done in the first place (unless you're a robot who can avoid being annoyed on being on the receiving end I guess). It would do this community a lot of good if people could avoid the idea of people being "too defensive", some people (like myself) tend to respond to everything said to them. When you do that, there is no possible way to not look "too defensive" if that's what someone is trying to find and the less the other people in the game understand that the more and more aggravating it gets. And it's ridiculous to ask people to randomly not respond to things. So yeah, there's never any good way of handling this once someone starts it up, so people should just stop doing it.
    So, I think I am missing some kind of context for this argument, but I haven't seen any damned if you do, damned if you don't arguments unless you are talking about my posts. And I really wasn't going for that kind of thing at all. I just gave my read on the way an argument was stated, and gave my honest opinion on what I thought the phrasing meant. There are some players that will intentionally make emotional appeals in their posts to get players to be less suspicious of them, and if I can't even attempt to call someone out on doing that because I might offend someone I feel like I'm missing out on a part of the strategy some people use.
    Last edited by TFT; 2015-06-12 at 02:39 PM.
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    Formerly known as The Fiery Tower Formerly known as Catseye2121.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Pffffft. I see what you did there.

    Though yeah, whether it was your intent to or not, I do think that's what you did. At the very least that's how it would look from my perspective and it clearly did to Luizeu as well. I guess you could avoid the issue by not saying things like "overly defensive" and actually use the more clear language you just did now? At the very least someone can make an argument against being accused (correctly or not) of using an emotional appeal, which should ease the frustration issue.

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsus View Post
    Pffffft. I see what you did there.

    Though yeah, whether it was your intent to or not, I do think that's what you did. At the very least that's how it would look from my perspective and it clearly did to Luizeu as well. I guess you could avoid the issue by not saying things like "overly defensive" and actually use the more clear language you just did now? At the very least someone can make an argument against being accused (correctly or not) of using an emotional appeal, which should ease the frustration issue.
    Sometimes, the best way to prove a point is by example.

    Well, I did attempt to clarify it in the followup post I did. It's just that my definition of overdefensiveness is generally intentionally adding emotional appeal into the arguments or phrasing an argument a certain way so that it tries to deflect suspicion. The issue, it seems, is when it's not an intentional emotional appeal but rather a person's natural posting pattern, because they end up potentially getting offended or seeing it as unfair, which I can understand on some level.

    And if someone unintentionally uses emotional appeals a lot, I would hope the playerbase that does do that type of thing would adjust. For example, if I see you use one, I'm less likely to assume it's an intentional deflection but rather part of your natural posting pattern. It's just hard to keep track of every player who I've ever played werewolf with in that manner.


    EDIT: Part of it is I think that when we have discussed this type of thing in the past, it's been hard to because people don't tend to think in terms of Pathos, Logos, and Ethos in arguments and I know we haven't discussed it much at all about it that way on this forum. Having clearer language helps.

    EDIT 2: Added links to the edit for fun.
    Last edited by TFT; 2015-06-12 at 03:07 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    As a completely impartial observer, I'd like to direct you to the conversation in the Pub thread, starting here, as I think it's quite relevant to the discussion you're having and my opinion has been shared.

    This post in particular sums up my issues here.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2015-06-12 at 03:06 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Ramsus, please check your PM inbox.
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    The Original Narrator for the SMBG "Werewolf" game
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    I think the first conflict here is the desire to allow all playstyles to play. A noble goal, certainly, but fraught with troubles: it could conflict with any of our purposes of werewolf. I see conflict where people who play to win benefit by lynching people that do not care much about winning, but I have also seen the reverse conflict, where roleplayers want to lynch non-roleplayers to maximise roleplaying. To what extent would protecting diversity override the interests of these players? What defines a playstyle worth protecting? Can a player choose to be unhelpful to Town whenever they're a wolf, but then defend themselves by labeling this choice a playstyle? Can a player, as a playstyle, ignore the game mechanics entirely and just roleplay and self-point? Can a player be lynched for not being helpful to Town? Can a player be lynched for not roleplaying? Do we declare some purposes of werewolf to override others? If not, who does? If nobody does, how can we play a game where everybody has a different objective? These are our defining questions.
    Last edited by Saposhiente; 2015-06-12 at 03:43 PM.

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    Good game, guys. Sapo, you are just too good for this.
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saposhiente View Post
    I think the first conflict here is the desire to allow all playstyles to play.
    That attitude is the only reason it's a conflict here.
    It isn't a conflict on other boards.
    It wasn't a conflict here if the Archives are any indication.

    So ask yourself what's different? Why is it a conflict here at this time when it isn't elsewhere and it wasn't here in the past?
    The exact attitude that you just shared. That's what's different.

    edit:
    And that's not a slight. That's simply an observation. It's only a conflict because you make it one.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2015-06-12 at 04:03 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    How about we all just choose to be excellent to each other?

    Two easy steps.

    1: Never intentionally say or do anything to provoke or insult another person.
    2: Assume that everyone is following rule 1, and therefore never be insulted or provoked by anything anyone says or does as it was probably unintentional and therefore excusable.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    How about we all just choose to be excellent to each other?

    Two easy steps.

    1: Never intentionally say or do anything to provoke or insult another person.
    2: Assume that everyone is following rule 1, and therefore never be insulted or provoked by anything anyone says or does as it was probably unintentional and therefore excusable.
    If everyone could follow those rules, it would fix more than just Werewolf...a lot more, if certain movies are secretly documentaries.


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  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saposhiente View Post
    I think the first conflict here is the desire to allow all playstyles to play. A noble goal, certainly, but fraught with troubles: it could conflict with any of our purposes of werewolf. I see conflict where people who play to win benefit by lynching people that do not care much about winning, but I have also seen the reverse conflict, where roleplayers want to lynch non-roleplayers to maximise roleplaying. To what extent would protecting diversity override the interests of these players? What defines a playstyle worth protecting? Can a player choose to be unhelpful to Town whenever they're a wolf, but then defend themselves by labeling this choice a playstyle? Can a player, as a playstyle, ignore the game mechanics entirely and just roleplay and self-point? Can a player be lynched for not being helpful to Town? Can a player be lynched for not roleplaying? Do we declare some purposes of werewolf to override others? If not, who does? If nobody does, how can we play a game where everybody has a different objective? These are our defining questions.
    My objective in playing any game is to have fun playing the game. I don't play tournament games at conventions for precisely the reason that I don't play games to maximize "utility of victory" - I play games to have fun. Period. When maximization of utility means the actual game becomes boring or frustrating or just plain damn annoying, then it is no longer my #1 goal.

    Again. Ultimately, playing games, competitive games or otherwise, is something I do for entertainment. If that means I don't choose to hop aboard the "#1 guaranteed highest rate of success method" of playing a given game, well that's just too bad. If someone insist on the game being played that way and verbally bludgeoning people over the head who refuse to play in that fashion, sooner or later one of us is going to stop playing in games where the other kind of player plays.

    But unless the narrator choosing to run the game flat out says "this is the playstyle I want to embrace", I'm not going to presume any given game must be played in that ultracompetitve style, and will continue to sign up and play my way, because whether or not you think my playstyle is effective doesn't give you the right to condemn it.

    I play for fun first. Period.

    ADDENDUM: Werewolf may have been based on the idea of playing with the lynch mob mentality as a game. When it goes past that point, to the point where psychological bullying and **** like that is going on *JUST TO WIN A FRIGGING GAME*, you're not playing with those ideas. You are demonstrating exactly why the mob mentality is a HORRIBLE thing. Something that shouldn't be emulated or praised or condoned. And some people (and I'm finding myself more and more among them) are finding that when you run into that, the game *stops being fun*.

    At which point, they've lost whether or not they're on the winning team. Because the entire meta-level point of the game was to have fun.
    Last edited by Helgraf; 2015-06-12 at 04:43 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    *slow claps for Murska

    How about we all just choose to be excellent to each other?

    Two easy steps.

    1: Never intentionally say or do anything to provoke or insult another person.
    2: Assume that everyone is following rule 1, and therefore never be insulted or provoked by anything anyone says or does as it was probably unintentional and therefore excusable.
    My objective in playing any game is to have fun playing the game. I don't play tournament games at conventions for precisely the reason that I don't play games to maximize "utility of victory" - I play games to have fun. Period. When maximization of utility means the actual game becomes boring or frustrating or just plain damn annoying, then it is no longer my #1 goal.

    Again. Ultimately, playing games, competitive games or otherwise, is something I do for entertainment. If that means I don't choose to hop aboard the "#1 guaranteed highest rate of success method" of playing a given game, well that's just too bad. If someone insist on the game being played that way and verbally bludgeoning people over the head who refuse to play in that fashion, sooner or later one of us is going to stop playing in games where the other kind of player plays.

    But unless the narrator choosing to run the game flat out says "this is the playstyle I want to embrace", I'm not going to presume any given game must be played in that ultracompetitve style, and will continue to sign up and play my way, because whether or not you think my playstyle is effective doesn't give you the right to condemn it.

    I play for fun first. Period.

    ADDENDUM: Werewolf may have been based on the idea of playing with the lynch mob mentality as a game. When it goes past that point, to the point where psychological bullying and **** like that is going on *JUST TO WIN A FRIGGING GAME*, you're not playing with those ideas. You are demonstrating exactly why the mob mentality is a HORRIBLE thing. Something that shouldn't be emulated or praised or condoned. And some people (and I'm finding myself more and more among them) are finding that when you run into that, the game *stops being fun*.

    At which point, they've lost whether or not they're on the winning team. Because the entire meta-level point of the game was to have fun.
    *slow claps for Helgraf*

    Thank you, my friend.

    DBZ, you also make a good point.

    *golf claps for DBZ

    Regardless of anything else, this is what I want WW to go back to.
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    It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo. Because the status...is not quo.

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  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    I saw TFT's post and I understood what he was trying to say then. I didn't feel offended by what he said or anything. I felt that kind of interaction was just part of the game. I'm terribily sorry if what I said offended anyone at any point. I'm really in it for the fun.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TFT View Post
    And if someone unintentionally uses emotional appeals a lot, I would hope the playerbase that does do that type of thing would adjust. For example, if I see you use one, I'm less likely to assume it's an intentional deflection but rather part of your natural posting pattern. It's just hard to keep track of every player who I've ever played werewolf with in that manner.
    I don't know if this can have anything to do with it or not, but I fear that my tone could be not 100% accurate as English is not my first language. To me, my reply at the game went with a little nudge and that's all.
    Darn it Whisper !


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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saposhiente View Post
    Players behave as they do because that is their strategy for fulfilling their purpose of Werewolf. What is at fault, the strategy, or the purpose, and why?
    The purpose is the problem, because people go in to games with their own purpose and pay no heed to the purposes of the other players, or the purpose of the narrators in running the game to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsus View Post
    Ok I don't think you guys talking here at each other is going to be super productive. As I'm not a mod, I'm by the rules basically not allowed to tell you guys you should stop.

    I will respond to some stuff EK just said as it's not related to the events specifically.
    1) Having less people around who play with less hostility is actually making the problem worse. The less people around who disagree with behaviors means that the people engaging in them get less and less negative response from it and get the message that what they're doing is perfectly acceptable. Instead of people leaving, what we need is people putting some effort in to tolerate these things and stick around long enough to tell people what they don't like about what people are doing.

    2) The people who are around really need to stop being afraid of confrontation and clearly say something when they think something is a problem. And I mean to that person, in public when reasonable so other people can contribute to the discussion. Complaining to the narrator about someone's behavior doesn't actually go anywhere towards fixing the behavior since that person will never know exactly what the issue is. Rather it just creates an image of "people don't like me and talk about me behind my backs, because why? No idea. I guess they're just mean/dumb."

    3) How is monopoly neither fun nor a social game? I think you're playing monopoly wrong dude.

    Edit: @Sapo: I wasn't talking about people's game strategies. I was talking about their behavior as people as relates to other people as human beings. The later thing is where we have a problem. It's a good thing for people not to all play the game the same. However that doesn't justify going to any and all means to win.

    Edit 2: If you're looking for a solution that results in people not perceiving what you say as more negative than what you mean.... I don't have any quick fix for that. Hell, I have the same problem. Only thing you can do is try to seem less abrasive and explain time and again what's going on in your head when you say things and hope people can understand a bit. In my opinion you've improved somewhat since when we first met. That said, it's a never ending struggle for some of us and you just have to accept that.
    I agree with all of this, except for the part I highlighted. We need less tolerance for it; we don't need to discuss it afterward, we need to kill it when it occurs. And I think the narrators should actively take steps to do that, as they're the only ones in the mix who don't have to worry about whether trying to change a game's tone is going to sabotage their teammates.
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  15. - Top - End - #225
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Core Component: New Terms is now up and recruiting. Lex when is a reasonable point in time where I should stop being in recruiting mode?

  16. - Top - End - #226
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Ideally before the 4th of July, or a week after.

    Lexington III, my Brute. Inner Circle. ! Melody


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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    I have collected additional thoughts on the debate but will wait until EK is dead in Classic in order to avoid influencing the game while dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grue Bait View Post
    Good game, guys. Sapo, you are just too good for this.
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    And by the way, your puzzle was one of the most interesting ones I've solved in a while. Kudos.
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Phantom of the Opera Werewolf VIII: In Spaaace has ended. The wolves have won.
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Woohoo! We now have over half of the last ten games actually finishing.

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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    I will at a convention and thus absent from the Forum and any gaming here from July 1-6.

  21. - Top - End - #231
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    We need more players, please, for Ramsus' Core Component: New Terms. Yes, it's Roleplay heavy. Yes, it's more roleplay than werewolf. Yes, the last one was very fun, for some at the very least. Sorry, I can't speak for everyone who played the last game. So for all those who'd like to try a game that focuses more on the roleplay than the werewolf hunting, this just might be the game for you.

    This advertisement brought to you by the Henchpixie Union, and has thus far not been endorsed or approved of by Ramsus or any other participants of the current or previous Core Component games.

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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Legato Endless View Post
    I will at a convention and thus absent from the Forum and any gaming here from July 1-6.
    May I ask what convention (as I will also be absent in a very similiar time period)?
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Helgraf View Post
    May I ask what convention (as I will also be absent in a very similiar time period)?
    You may.

    Convergence in Minnesota.

    If you're by some vanishingly small chance also going there and not another Con taking advantage of the holiday, I would not be against meeting up.

  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Legato Endless View Post
    You may.

    Convergence in Minnesota.

    If you're by some vanishingly small chance also going there and not another Con taking advantage of the holiday, I would not be against meeting up.
    Ahh, sadly not the same one. I shall be partaking at Dex*Con in Jersey.
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Sorry for the interruption, folks, but I am having problems getting in touch with a couple of players, and trying to prevent an auto-lynching:

    WILL LORD FULLBLADDER, MASTER OF GOBLINS AND BANJO1985 PLEASE PM ME!!

    Thank you. That is all.
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    The Original Narrator for the SMBG "Werewolf" game
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    LET CHAOS RULE: Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!
    It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo. Because the status...is not quo.

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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    I haven't seen Banjo1985 in a while. He didn't reply to my PM or e-mail. He hasn't posted since the 28th of May.

    I would have to look, which I just did, he logged on at least just yesterday, the 23rd of June. But hasn't posted since the 5th of June.

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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex-Kat View Post
    I haven't seen Banjo1985 in a while. He didn't reply to my PM or e-mail. He hasn't posted since the 28th of May.

    I would have to look, which I just did, he logged on at least just yesterday, the 23rd of June. But hasn't posted since the 5th of June.
    Yeah we've been waiting for him to post the results of the latest round of Fatbelly for a while now.
    Catatar made for me many years ago ... pretty sure by banjo1985
    Werewolf Awards: 'Best Narration: Helgraf'
    Rabbit says stuff that makes me blush.

  28. - Top - End - #238
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DungeonMaster77's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Huntsville, AL
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Well, I've had no choice but to post on the thread that they are both in danger of auto-lynching, so if anybody here knows them IRL, please let them know, or at least have them contact me.
    My Awsome Sig!
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    The Original Narrator for the SMBG "Werewolf" game
    WEREWOLF CENTRAL
    Avatar by Sampi
    LET CHAOS RULE: Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!
    It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo. Because the status...is not quo.

    Games I run: Fallout: Great Plains (Redux)

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AvatarVecna's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2014

    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Alright, I've submitted my recruitment thread for approval. Can't wait to see if it gets enough interest to actually play.


    Currently Recruiting WW/Mafia: Logic's Deathloop Mafia and Book Wombat's A Small Wager - A Practical Guide To Evil

    Avatar by AsteriskAmp

    Quote Originally Posted by Xumtiil View Post
    An Abattoir Vecna, if you will.
    My Homebrew

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lex-Kat's Avatar

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    Dec 2006
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    Default Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!

    Presenting.... Murder at the Academy.

    Lexington III, my Brute. Inner Circle. ! Melody


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