Strategies for the battle

[SteveMB]

Let's set up a guideline here: We don't know what magic can do, so we can't depend on it. We're ruling magic out, because it's so unpredictable.

I agree that we should be cautious about assuming that the not-yet-described types of magic can do to something to affect the battle -- so far, the obviously relevant magicks we've seen are healing (on Ansom's side), Lookamancy (on Stanley's side), and instant communication (on both sides).

[Poppatomus]

I agree that we should be cautious about assuming that the not-yet-described types of magic can do to something to affect the battle -- so far, the obviously relevant magicks we've seen are healing (on Ansom's side), Lookamancy (on Stanley's side), and instant communication (on both sides).

I think we can assume that healing is a "tactical" magic, in the sense that it probably weights the scales in unit vs. unit combat, but isn't itself strategically decisively.

Lookamancy, stanley's possesion and Ansom's lack, dovetails nicely with mine and J's theory of some manner of baited trap/flanking attack idea. A huge advantage in battlefield awareness, combined with a limited ability to predict/shape the future (luckamancy being the latter), is exactly what you need to be able to pull such a wild plan off.

One thing I have been thinking of is precedents in fiction for such a defense, something that Parson might think of in a fever-dream. He's already referenced ender's game, but ender's game had both a superweapon and was an attack, not a defense. In fact, none of the references to other stories has involved the kind of odds or unknowns he faces. (not the deathstar, not Smaug.)

Anyone that knows of any famous defenses in fiction, I admit I am not that well versed with fantasy beyond the classecs, please share, especially instances where the bad guys or quasi-bad guys win on the defense?

Pending that, there is also the "princess bride" approach. Referenced above, this means beating the larger numbers through an illusion at a decisive moment leading to fear and panic. The lack of lookamancers suggests this might work, since penetrating the illusion would be difficult, but In a world where magic is common, illusions would certainly be something one would be prepared for. (though the paralell between Fezzik and Parson in terms of size adheres. What I wouldn't give for a holocaust cloak.)

I keep going back to a surprise flank attack, but it's such a huge risk I just can't see it happening without a "magic bullet" to back it up, and not knowing much about magic I can't go out on a limb.

Also, as a side note, where does Jillian play in all this. Can she be ransomed? can she be turned?

[ziggurat]

Please note the difference between cavalry and calvary...

[Kreistor]

I'm not going to use the lame misspellings. Sorry.

Parson's main problem is annihilating enemy numbers. To do so, he needs one unit to destroy many without being attacked themselves.

Assymetric warfare can be won. Normally, it's guerilla tactics that succeed, but Parson won't have time for that. The Tool won't go for that style. He's too proud.

So, Parson needs to be eminently efficient in use of his troops. He needs to ensure his units attack only when the enemy lacks defenses, and only allow them to be attacked when they have absolute defenses.

Parson has certain advantages.

1) This may be the most important. Parson is not from this realm. He may not be limited by the same Turn-based system the others are. Remember, no one can see his stats. If he doesn't have any, he may be able to, oh, say walk into the enemy stronghold, look at their battle strategy and tactics, and walk out unhindered. His units will likely be still limited, but Parson is the wild card.

2) A lack of prejudice. All of this is new to Parson. He is not restricted by living wiht the system during his upbringing, thus, he will see it from a different perspective. This can provide insights that can lead to new tactics and strategies.

There is one strategy that may completely surprise the enemy and hand Parson victory.

Let the enemy take the city. Then blow it up and rebuild. Lots of corpses to raise to form a new army.

[Poppatomus]

Let the enemy take the city. Then blow it up and rebuild. Lots of corpses to raise to form a new army.

If he had the power to blow up the city, why not just blow up the opposing army, or the road by which they are approaching? He currently controls the city and the land around it. His opponent has been kind enough to approach via the most obvious route with a mostly massed force (though admittedly with some kind of forward air screen I suppose to protect against dragons in the absence of his hero.) If he has that kind of fire power, magic or otherwise, why not just use it to win?

Parson's main problem is annihilating enemy numbers. To do so, he needs one unit to destroy many without being attacked themselves.

This is almost never the main problem, at least not strategically. The whole reason that guerilla war can be successful (it does fail more often than the media would have you believe) is because it recognizes that, the weaker you are relative to your enemy, the more important it is to beat them psychologically rather then through mere attrition.

Guerillas don't usually win because they beat there opponent on a battlefield after softening them up, they win because they convince their opponent they can't win or that winning is too costly. (The two examples of guerilla wars I can think of that were eventually decided on the battlefield, Eritrea and China, both took a decade or more to get to that point.)

If his plan is simply to try and out attrit his opponent he better hope he can kill 25-1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0020.html), which would be absolutely staggering, near impossible numbers.

While the "is he bound by the rules/do the rules really exist" debate seems like a whole other thread, I think that overestimating it's effect is unwarrented. It is obvious that individual "units" continue to exist and act even when the "turn" ends. I doubt he could walk around unmolested, even if he might have some other advantage.

Even if he could, the basic strategy seems apparent, and he'd have to gain one hell of a tactical advantage in order to turn such a fearsome tide. He'd need to be able to single handedly defeat whole units, or take out C3 nodes, and somehow I don't see this becoming a ninja-action comic.

[the_tick_rules]

I have no idea, we don't know enough yet.

[Poppatomus]

I have no idea, we don't know enough yet.

But I gots nowhere else to meta-game!

[SteveMB]

1) This may be the most important. Parson is not from this realm. He may not be limited by the same Turn-based system the others are. Remember, no one can see his stats. If he doesn't have any, he may be able to, oh, say walk into the enemy stronghold, look at their battle strategy and tactics, and walk out unhindered. His units will likely be still limited, but Parson is the wild card.

While the "is he bound by the rules/do the rules really exist" debate seems like a whole other thread, I think that overestimating it's effect is unwarrented. It is obvious that individual "units" continue to exist and act even when the "turn" ends. I doubt he could walk around unmolested, even if he might have some other advantage.

The battle between Webinar's backup squad and the spidews apparently happened during Stanley's turn (immediately afterwards, Webinar gives orders to be carried out "when our turn begins"). That implies that units defend themselves when it's not their turn.

This battle also suggests that units can't simply be bypassed and ignored when it's not their turn. The spidews were "on a return path" -- i.e. instructed to return and rejoin Stanley's forces. They should have simply ignored Webinar, unless encountering him triggered combat despite the fact that it's Stanley's turn. (I'm presuming that the spidews don't have any personality at all, much less an impulsive and reckless one like Jillian's, and therefore didn't choose to fight an avoidable battle that conflicted with their orders.).

[mirrorshades]

That implies that units defend themselves when it's not their turn.

...

This battle also suggests that units can't simply be bypassed and ignored when it's not their turn. The spidews were "on a return path" -- i.e. instructed to return and rejoin Stanley's forces. They should have simply ignored Webinar, unless encountering him triggered combat despite the fact that it's Stanley's turn.

These things are not uncommon in various war/TBS games. When attacked, a unit will normally defend itself (I think this is a convention in TBS games to approximate a realistic battle, instead of just having a unit sit there and get beat down). This would have the effect of two head-to-head units effectively getting to fight twice per turn.

Depending on the rules, a unit may counterattack (instead of just defending) if it has movement/operation points left or if it ended its turn with that command ("Guard" or the like).

Also, if the spidews returned through Webinar's zone of control (ZoC), they would be forced to stop moving and may be open to some sort of opportunity attack by his unit (again, this would be rules dependent and may vary based on remaining points). May also be a fog-of-war rule in effect that would prevent the spidews from seeing Webinar's unit.

Interesting to see just how different planning strategy in a turn-based setting is than it would be in real-time/real life. This would be why Parson was the target of the summon warlord spell instead of someone like Hannibal, Ghengis Khan, etc.... His biggest weakness (other than culture shock) seems to be that he doesn't know all the rules yet. I have every confidence that he will be able to step up and take command once he's had the chance to read the rulebook and practice a few scenarios.

Anyway, first-time poster. Just registered to say that all. Have a nice day.

[ChiefDesigner]

First-time poster also, but reading through the posts, this occurred to me--

Does attacking force a unit to stop, or use move points in any way?

If so, what prevents Parson from sending one Uncroaked soldier down the single road to the limit of its move range? Because then, Ansom is forced to halt and attack the single Uncroaked soldier (I assume that Parson is smart enough to use ZOCs [zones of control] to maximum advantage). Meanwhile, the dwagons are eating Ansom's forces alive...

Rinse, lather, repeat, and you can hold off Ansom's army for a good long time with a very, very small number of Uncroaked infantry--which buys Parson time, at least, to come up with a better plan

[SteveMB]

Also, if the spidews returned through Webinar's zone of control (ZoC), they would be forced to stop moving and may be open to some sort of opportunity attack by his unit (again, this would be rules dependent and may vary based on remaining points).

Ah, that was the concept I was thinking of. Thanks.

May also be a fog-of-war rule in effect that would prevent the spidews from seeing Webinar's unit.

Clearly, limited intel applies to war in Erfworld, or else recon flights and Stanley's Lookamancers would be pointless.

First-time poster also, but reading through the posts, this occurred to me--

Does attacking force a unit to stop, or use move points in any way?

If so, what prevents Parson from sending one Uncroaked soldier down the single road to the limit of its move range? Because then, Ansom is forced to halt and attack the single Uncroaked soldier (I assume that Parson is smart enough to use ZOCs [zones of control] to maximum advantage). Meanwhile, the dwagons are eating Ansom's forces alive...

Rinse, lather, repeat, and you can hold off Ansom's army for a good long time with a very, very small number of Uncroaked infantry--which buys Parson time, at least, to come up with a better plan

That sounds like the sort of loophole Parson needs to come up with. That said, it doesn't seem that this specific one would work -- the dwagons that attacked and captured Jillian apparently returned on the same turn:

1. Webinar didn't see any dwagons, suggesting that they didn't "end turn" and hang around in the same spot until Stanley's next turn.

2. Before the turn Jillian left, Ansom stated that the forces would be completely gathered "in two turns". On Ansom's first turn afterwards, Jillian heads out, takes out a target of opportunity, and ends turn in the trees. On Stanley's turn, the dwagons attack and capture her. When Ansom is speaking to his gathered forces (i.e. the second turn following his conversation with Jillian), Jillian is already imprisoned (indicating that the dwagons got home with their prisoner on the same turn they attacked).

[Kreistor]

The battle between Webinar's backup squad and the spidews apparently happened during Stanley's turn (immediately afterwards, Webinar gives orders to be carried out "when our turn begins"). That implies that units defend themselves when it's not their turn.

You misunderstand me. When I say without defenses, I mean without additional defenses, like fortifications and cover. You want to catch them in the open, grouped up, where you maximize your chances of dealing damage.

If he had the power to blow up the city, why not just blow up the opposing army, or the road by which they are approaching?

You can't mine where you don't have men, and mines placed in open fields won't necessarily hit any enemy.

I'm talking about laying a huge trap. The enemy thinks they are winning, rush in thanks to the flush of victory, only to find themselves annihilated. It won't be expected because the enemy would think the Tool too proud to give up his own city in order to win.

No troops are less wary than those that think they've won, and no troops want to stay somewhere more than ones that have just captured a city. Troops that take a city think they own it, and the more they bleed for it, the more they want to exact payment from the inhabitants. And there is now bait to draw in the overconfident enemy commander.

[mirrorshades]

what prevents Parson from sending one Uncroaked soldier down the single road to the limit of its move range? Because then, Ansom is forced to halt and attack the single Uncroaked soldier (I assume that Parson is smart enough to use ZOCs [zones of control] to maximum advantage).

Interesting; what occurrs to me, though, is that normally movement on a map involves units of a relatively similar size. So, if Ansom were moving (for example) a 1,000 soldier unit towards the city, a single opposing soldier would not likely be considered a "unit" of comparable size for ZoC purposes. (And realistically, I can't say I'd expect a single soldier to stand firm and take on a unit that size anyway!)

We haven't really been given much to go on as far as what exactly the unit sizes are in this battle.

Ansom has spoken of a Company of Elves (70-250 soldiers), a Flight of Orlies (4-6 aircraft, 20-100 soldiers), and has also been revealed to have a Squad of Marbit Axmen (8-12 soldiers, though it looked much bigger in the overhead shot in strip #1). We have also seen a group (a combined arms battlegroup, maybe?) of seven "heavies" being sent to provide ground cover for Jillian.

On the other side, Wanda instructed Lord Manpower to begin assembling a Regiment of uncroaked infantry (2,000-3,000 soldiers, which wouldn't make sense if they had less than 200 uncroaked men left in their force). Stanley also mentioned a Squad of Spidews (again, 8-12), and had a ground unit of some sort (3 infantry, 1 Twoll) that was wiped out by Jillian. Haven't seen how many Dwagons there are, though probably at least a dozen (roughly Squadron size) in the scene where Stanley used the hammer to ascend and mount one.

However, all the overhead and "crowd" images of both armies show what appear to be thousands and thousands of troops in various formations; it may be in this case that the dialogue that references unit sizes is not meant to be a literal match for the Earthly unit sizes. In that case, I just wasted about 15 minutes of my life posting all this crap.

(Wikipedia has all sorts of yummy information on military unit sizes and unit formations, for the curious.)

[SteveMB]

On the other side, Wanda instructed Lord Manpower to begin assembling a Regiment of uncroaked infantry (2,000-3,000 soldiers, which wouldn't make sense if they had less than 200 uncroaked men left in their force).

Er, no, they have fewer than 200 living men. They apparently have a much larger supply of uncroaked.

However, all the overhead and "crowd" images of both armies show what appear to be thousands and thousands of troops in various formations; it may be in this case that the dialogue that references unit sizes is not meant to be a literal match for the Earthly unit sizes. In that case, I just wasted about 15 minutes of my life posting all this crap.

That's the simplest interpretation. The reference to "an extra squad" on the first page seemed a bit odd if a "squad" means about a dozen infrantry -- you'd think that a great big gem that once belonged to one of the Titans would be worth a bit more than that, even if it is just a rhinestone. I suspect that "squad" is used in a somewhat more generic manner.

[mirrorshades]

Er, no, they have fewer than 200 living men. They apparently have a much larger supply of uncroaked.

Ah, right. My brain wants to define "uncroaked" as "not croaked" (i.e. "still living") instead of "undead". An undead regiment makes more sense, then.

[innovan]

Ansome's troops are massed and his heaviest units are cloth golems.
His main force is marshmellows and peeps.
Andsome's main steed is a flying piece of cloth.

As part of unconventional warfare, Parson needs to go ancient:

Greek Fire.

Launched by the trebuchet-full onto the massed troops camp. Possibly also pre-spreading tar onto the most likely camp area beforehand.

And given the artisit's talents for light effects, I'm hoping for a sneak night attack where he can really show off, yet hide the more horrific parts into shadow.

If we're really lucky, he'll incorporate the glass animals into some refraction effects.

[Revlid]

Ooh, I like that idea. Perhaps something to look into when magic is visited again?

[jindra34]

Ansome's troops are massed and his heaviest units are cloth golems.
His main force is marshmellows and peeps.
Andsome's main steed is a flying piece of cloth.

As part of unconventional warfare, Parson needs to go ancient:

Greek Fire.

Launched by the trebuchet-full onto the massed troops camp. Possibly also pre-spreading tar onto the most likely camp area beforehand.

And given the artisit's talents for light effects, I'm hoping for a sneak night attack where he can really show off, yet hide the more horrific parts into shadow.

If we're really lucky, he'll incorporate the glass animals into some refraction effects.

Agreed Parson needs to invent some flames throwers post haste.
he also should work on crossbows, ballistae and catipults if he can spare the time... i do not think these people understand ranged combat

[PMDM]

New comic depicts a flying centaur in the last panel. Also, what is Ansom riding?

[fangthane]

Parson needs to manipulate the terrain such that there is a kill zone extending from the Knob to at least a quarter of a dwagon's move, all of which fulfills the requirement that it be "mountain, forest or water." At that point, his dwagons can annihilate targets of opportunity and need fear no retaliation save from opposing flyers. Those opposing flyers have generally been billed as substantially weaker than dwagons, and are commanded by a woman whose mind Stanley's croakamancer claims to control. If I can come up with this in a matter of a few minutes, Parson should be likewise able to devise a number of potential strategies based around what he does know - and unlike me, has the luxury of bouncing them off Stanley, Sizemore or Wanda to determine their feasibility and limitations. After all, who knows whether strong enough dirtamancy could raise a small mountain range to hem in Ansom's forces? Or allow a pressurised subterranean water source to flow into a downhill channel to produce a river where the road used to be*?

Of course it also depends on the relative numbers, unit sizes (is each dwagon a unit, or do they come in pairs, trios, etc) and turn-based unit strength replenishment/recovery, if any. (as in the Civilization series) It also depends largely on the actual numbers of aerial combatants available on each side. We've seen that a small group of dwagons can annihilate a small group of orlies, and that a hero unit can (apparently) inflict some fairly heavy damage on a dwagon (or unit thereof) but without knowing their "numbers" and the mechanics driven by those numbers, it's all just idle speculation.

*this assumes such a source is the Knob's supply in case of siege, which may or may not be accurate.

[Wardog]

If his plan is simply to try and out attrit his opponent he better hope he can kill 25-1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0020.html), which would be absolutely staggering, near impossible numbers.

Not necessarily.

A few elite units defending a choke-point or strong defencive position against hordes of weak units can achieve that sort of kill-ratio.

I've done it many times in turn-based and real-time strategy games.

Thermopyle was, IIRC, a real-world example.


The basic principle is to use terrain to turn an "elite squad vs horde of weaklings" battle into many consecutive "elite squad vs weakling squad" battles.

[Poppatomus]

Not necessarily.

A few elite units defending a choke-point or strong defencive position against hordes of weak units can achieve that sort of kill-ratio.

I've done it many times in turn-based and real-time strategy games.

Thermopyle was, IIRC, a real-world example.


The basic principle is to use terrain to turn an "elite squad vs horde of weaklings" battle into many consecutive "elite squad vs weakling squad" battles.

The game example is stronger than the Real life example. The total number of soldiers available to the Spartans was about 7,000, later reduced to about 2,000 (I am using Wiki for the exact number, but they accord with more academic sources I have seen elsewhere) While they faced a total of somewhere between 60,000 to 500,000 Persians, likely close to 200,000.

Wiki gives estimated persian casualties at 10,000-20,000, even the high end of which falls well under both 25-1 for 7,000 (175,000 Persian Casualties) as well us under 25-1 for 2,000 (50,000 Persian casualties.)

Thus, the high end of the ratio, assuming 20,000 casualties against 2,000 greeks, means they traded their lives at the rate of a "mere" 10-1.

And remember also that, even killing 10 opponents for every one of their number killed, they none-the-less lost.

It is possible, given a good enough choke point, an foolish enough enemy, and invincible enough troops, to hold a point for a very long time, and inflict a lot of damage. but even when the stars align just right, 25 to 1 would be miraculous. Even if you had the potential to kill that many your opponent would just leave, or more likely choose a new strategy (like starving you out of your chokepoint)

Other than the dragons, which are clearly to be feared, we have no reason to believe that Stanley has the kind of troops in number or quality to hold such checkpoints (uncroaked seem, at least by temperment, particularly unsuited to such an action). The fact that Ansom WANTS troops comitted to the tunnels suggests that they are a no go as far as wiping out his force there.

You are right to say that holding and maximizing the death toll at checkpoints will/should be key, but it seems impossible that strategy will alone be enough to turn the tide of battle.

[Demented]

Edit: I see someone already covered Thermopylae. I should've guessed.


The best example I can think of, actually, was a tank battle in World War II. I don't remember who/what was involved, but a handful of properly placed and directed tanks were able to immobilize and destroy a larger armor column. Maybe closer to a 5:1 ratio than a 25:1, but nonetheless pretty spectacular. Their advantage was communication, organization, and a clever commander. (And probably ammunition.)

And that's probably about it. 25:1 is a pretty huge kill ratio to achieve without explosives and machine guns. 5:1 or 10:1, sure, but by the 10th kill, even your veteran is going to get exhausted from swinging his sword or thrusting his spear.

[jindra34]

The game example is stronger than the Real life example. The total number of soldiers available to the Spartans was about 7,000, later reduced to about 2,000 (I am using Wiki for the exact number, but they accord with more academic sources I have seen elsewhere) While they faced a total of somewhere between 60,000 to 500,000 Persians, likely close to 200,000.

Wiki gives estimated persian casualties at 10,000-20,000, even the high end of which falls well under both 25-1 for 7,000 (175,000 Persian Casualties) as well us under 25-1 for 2,000 (50,000 Persian casualties.)

Thus, the high end of the ratio, assuming 20,000 casualties against 2,000 greeks, means they traded their lives at the rate of a "mere" 10-1.

And remember also that, even killing 10 opponents for every one of their number killed, they none-the-less lost.

It is possible, given a good enough choke point, an foolish enough enemy, and invincible enough troops, to hold a point for a very long time, and inflict a lot of damage. but even when the stars align just right, 25 to 1 would be miraculous. Even if you had the potential to kill that many your opponent would just leave, or more likely choose a new strategy (like starving you out of your chokepoint)

Other than the dragons, which are clearly to be feared, we have no reason to believe that Stanley has the kind of troops in number or quality to hold such checkpoints (uncroaked seem, at least by temperment, particularly unsuited to such an action). The fact that Ansom WANTS troops comitted to the tunnels suggests that they are a no go as far as wiping out his force there.

You are right to say that holding and maximizing the death toll at checkpoints will/should be key, but it seems impossible that strategy will alone be enough to turn the tide of battle.

New idea... retreat entire city into the tunnels and fight a gurreilla war from there... too bad this startegy would make dwagons useless... aww... i love the dwagons and wanna see them kick boop.

Also the key is not to kill so many that there are none left but to get a high enough kill ratio to get the enemy to think they are quagmired.... quagmiring is haell on alliances and could be cleverly used to break up the allaince, especially with the aid of an inside agent (jillian), thus the goal is too get as high a kill to death ratio as possible... wanda better start churning out uncroaked... and playing mind games... thus use gurriella warfare even if it is from tunnels.

[Ultimatum479]

Since everyone keeps talking about the tunnels, I'm surprised no one's suggested simply collapsing the tunnels on the Marbits. Parson should be expecting the tunnels to be used as an attack route even if Wanda didn't get that information from Jillian, and odds are she did.

Dwagons certainly do seem to be the key to a military victory, although Parson's instincts told him, in one of the Klogs if I recall correctly, that the victory will be magical in nature. If we're going to exclude magic from the strategizing, we're going against the rather blatant foreshadowing, so we'll probably not end up with the right answer. I'm going to consider magic a bit.

I'd say the Marbits, as I mentioned, should be quite easily handled by collapsing the tunnels on them. Assuming the tunnels are primarily just dirt, as it seems from the little we've seen of them, Sizemore might be able to use Dirtamancy to trigger their collapse, but a better idea would probably be to use some sorts of explosives as other posts in this thread have mentioned. Sizemore could then use his Dirtamancy to clear away the rubble -- or Findamancers could possibly "find" the corpses under the debris -- and Wanda could uncroak the Marbits for a whole new regiment of infantry.

Now there's the worry of hero units. First of all, as to someone's earlier suggestion of archery from dwagonback, I'm not sure if non-heroes can mount other creatures with higher movement and dodging abilities; everyone else seems restricted to travelling separately so far, although we don't yet have enough information for me to state that with certainty.

Back to the main point of hero units, though...Wanda may have been exaggerating when she spoke of Jillian being able to take out a small army of infantry with a pair of chopsticks, but it is probably a bad idea to underestimate the power of any hero unit in this comic. Thus, the effectiveness of the Arkenpliers, even when unattuned, against uncroaked makes me a bit worried about their being in Ansom's hands. Since Dwagons are the most powerful non-heroes Stanley has, I'd use them exclusively to attack the heroes like Ansom and Vinny, as little else would have a chance against Ansom -- Wanda's estimates of the remaining living troops in Gobwin Knob were depressingly low, and her worry about that issue implies that uncroaked are not only mindless but also poorer fighters than they were in life. Dwagon mobility will be key to slipping behind enemy lines and launching an all-out attack on Ansom until he's out of the picture. I'd say killing Ansom before he even reaches Gobwin Knob, attacking right NOW with Dwagons, is pretty much the only surefire way to achieve victory. Normally, killing a guy surrounded by an entire army would be next to impossible in a single turn, but since the Dwagons have been shown to be virtually unchallenged in the air by Doombats and Orlies, Gwiffons being their only real threat, and since the Dwagons can retreat to a mountain terrain spot for safety after their attack, and since Ansom was relying heavily on Jill to lead the air battle and she's now captured, I'd say they can pull it off.

The trick will be getting Ansom relatively alone, in terms of flying units, so that the Dwagons can attack. I'm fairly certain Stanley could beat him in a one-on-one duel because he's attuned to the Arkenhammer (*Bam!* Ansom's a pigeon, one-hit PWNT) but I don't think we can overestimate Dwagon movement too much; Ansom's significant air reinforcements have to be far enough away, or dead, for Stanley to kill Ansom and then escape back to safety. Thus, a major distraction of those air units will be necessary before the hero assassination attempt. As Orlies were implied to be marginally better than bats in combat and even a swarm of Orlies died instantly against the Dwagons, I'm hardly worried about Vinny's troops (although Vinny himself is a flying hero who could be trouble), but the Gwiffons and any other significantly powerful fliers (the "unipegataur" or whatever appears to be the only other one judging by strip 8) Ansom has must be distracted before the attack on Ansom. If Stanley's willing to risk a couple Dwagons, he could position some on mountains as bait to get the fliers to attack while he and the rest of the Dwagons attack the now unprotected Ansom and then get away to safety before the flying troops return.

This, of course, is where we have no idea how the battle will turn out afterwards. I'm willing to bet that killing Ansom won't remove the reason for the war; Vinny's the only one who's questioned the reasons for the upcoming battle, and even he stated he'd stick by Ansom no matter what, implying that were Ansom dead, Vinny would fight to avenge him. However, the question is whether or not the Arkenpliers will attune themselves to Stanley. The idea has been raised before that they might be attuned to Parson, but as he's pretty much statless in Erfworld, I find it unlikely, personally. If they aren't attuned to Stanley, then, bah. He flees before the other fliers return, his hit and run mission complete, the Dwagons drop him off at Gobwin Knob, and they continue their occasional ambushes on Ansom's army as it continues to approach GK, this time without risking Stanley's life further since they're not taking out any more heroes. If they are attuned to Stanley, it's a whole new scenario, as we have no idea if his power might increase exponentially with the addition of a second Arkentool to his arsenal -- toolkit, whatever.

We'll assume he turns out not to be the rightful wielder of the Arkenpliers, then. If he is, for all we know he could singlehandedly take out all the major flying units and then the Dwagons would just own everything else. If he's not, the current status of the battle is that Ansom's army is almost at Gobwin Knob, and the Dwagons are attacking whenever they're close enough to a mountain that they can attack and return to the mountains for safety within the same turn. The Marbits attack and the tunnels collapse on them as I've already mentioned. Sizemore moves the debris aside or the Findamancers find the corpses, Wanda uncroaks them either way, and the uncroaked Marbits join the rest of the uncroaked infantry in the final battle for Gobwin Knob.

Ansom's troops have arrived by this time. The Marbit underground feint wasn't to be too long before the main assault. They were planning on surrounding Gobwin Knob and finding the weakest spot in the walls, then all pouring in through that breach. A well-planned ambush far away from GK would've been optimal, but it's too late for that, so the ambush, it appears, will have to be within Gobwin Knob now...and the perfect way to set that up is to intentionally weaken a major section of the wall. As the attackers run in through that section, they're hit from both sides by the heaviest troops possible, trolls and crap golems and all. Troop for troop, I think the GK power units are better than Ansom's; they're just horribly outnumbered. Powerful troops attacking enemies coming in a bit at a time through a small breach, especially if Gobwin Knob has Zones of Control for melee troops as it would appear, should be able to hold off the assault indefinitely if they're being constantly healed, and if it's crap golems that are doing the fighting, then Sizemore can certainly keep healing them. The strategy should work until someone (not Ansom, if the initial attack was successful -- and it better be, no matter how many Dwagons Stanley has to lose in that attack, as assassinating Ansom right off the bat is the best chance they've got) realizes what's happening and tells the troops to pull back and find another breach.

Meanwhile, the Spidews should have been sent around to the back of the attacking army with their presumedly high move, and they should, despite high casualties, be able to do some serious damage to the ranged weaponry: siege weapons and archers. Parson needs to force Ansom's (now maybe Vinny's) army to resort to ground melee attacks, as that's the best chance to hold off breaches as explained above. Now that the tactic's been used, however, the next breach will happen somewhere random, so Parson can't just have his best troops prepared to stop it, and it'll probably be a bigger breach now that it wasn't an intentionally weakened section of the wall. (Note that, given enough heavy troops, Parson could weaken multiple sections of the wall and do that strategy simultaneously in multiple places to hurt the attacking army even more before they retreat to find a new place to breach.) Thus, holding off the entire army with a few powerful troops likely won't be sufficient anymore.

Therefore, they retreat and light the crapload of Greek Fire, gunpowder, etc they had set up all around Gobwin Knob just outside the walls. There have been enough other posts in this thread about Parson explaining technology to people here that I won't have to go into the details. He'll just explain it as Earth's version of magic: technology is just magic composed solely of the Matter and Motion elements and aligned to Numbers.

At this point, I think the battle should be winnable when the rest of the troops simply meet the incoming charge in a standard hit-trading battle. The Dwagons should by this time (hopefully several turns if the hold-the-breach strategy worked properly) have finished off the flying opposition with their hit-and-run tactics, since they're simply so much more powerful, so they can now rain destruction on the ground troops without fear of retribution once the Spidews have succeeded in their suicidal charge to annihilate the enemy's ranged weaponry capabilities. That should be the deciding factor as the two armies face off, the one (Vinny's?) pretty much decimated by now, the other boosted with the Marbit uncroaked troops. The fight's on home ground, so I'm assuming that Gobwin Knob would be near-optimal terrain for Gobwins and Hobgobwins even if they're not in the tunnels, and with Wanda constantly uncroaking any fallen units, I wouldn't expect the battered invaders to last. Plus, factor in the Hippiemancers and you've got yourself a sure victory. When they see only death all around them, forced to face the horrors of war, and suddenly masters of Flower Power like Janis start singing about peace, I'm betting plenty will surrender. ^_^

[SteveMB]

Hmmm... a pretty detailed analysis of the military factors. Based on the ending of the latest page, it would seem that Stanley's side is taking a different approach toward taking care of Ansom (i.e. using Jillian to draw him into a trap). If they succeed, or even if Ansom personally escapes after leading a debacle rescue attempt, the coalition could easily start disintegrating....

[Ultimatum479]

Indeed, the psychological and magical warfare routes seem to be the current foci of the comic. But since we don't know enough about Erfworld magic yet and since we don't know enough about Ansom's personality yet (we know he loves Jillian and we know he hates Stanley for the reasons Vinny deduced, but we don't yet know which will take priority), I prefer sticking to the military side of it. That _is_ the original reason for which Parson was recruited, anyway. The psychological tactics are basically to give him another way to win this since Tool Stanley found out he's completely screwed militarily, as we all probably know more of Erfworld's game mechanics than Parson at this point.

[Om]

As part of unconventional warfare, Parson needs to go ancient

Greek Fire.

If he knows how to make the damned stuff. The manufacture of Greek Fire was a secret then and it remains a secret today.

Besides, Greek Fire, and other flammable weapons, are probably not the best choice when your own forces are comprised of the undead - traditionally extremely combustible in their own right.

The best example I can think of, actually, was a tank battle in World War II.

Probably a flawed example given the inherent technical differences between the tanks of that war. That is, I'm assuming that the battle was fought between Allied and German forces.

[PMDM]

Allright, what about the possibility of Jillian being a kind of double spy? Where she's giving information back to Ansom? Would Ansom gain his informational advantage back?

[jindra34]

Allright, what about the possibility of Jillian being a kind of double spy? Where she's giving information back to Ansom? Would Ansom gain his informational advantage back?

That wwould require a whole lot of planning on Ansom's part... he might be capable of it but Wanda seems to keep jillian in the dark... somewhat possible but unlikely...