5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

[tieren]

Question: is it possible for a druid to become proficient in natural weapons via the weapon master feat?

[SharkForce]

Question: is it possible for a druid to become proficient in natural weapons via the weapon master feat?

wouldn't make a difference. when you transform you use the form's bonus (and your proficiency or lack thereof doesn't matter).

[hymer]

@ MaxWilson: Thank you! I'm glad the handbook has been of use.
I agree that smoke mephits have their place, but I stand by the wording. The scenarios you describe are a pretty good indication of just how versatile Conjure X spells are.
But I can't really include such an anecdote in a quick overview. At least now, it's in the thread, so that's something, and thanks for it! I did point out what abilities the smoke mephit possesses, so it will have to be up to the reader what to do with those effects.
The air elemental with mage armor is a nifty idea, too. Fire elementals would likewise benefit greatly. I hadn't thought of that. But I feel it, too, is too specific to mention in the handbook text. It might fit better under a discussion of uses of Mage Armor or a minionmancer handbook.

@ tieren: Thanks!
I've been thinking about it, but I keep running up against the lack of specificity of the rules. There is no real agreement, e.g., on how monk's Unarmored Defense works with various Wild Shapes. Can the martial art form mastered by a humanoid monk really be translated to a quadruped (the wild shape must be physically capable of using a class feature)? Or a snake? A spider? What about Natural Armor, does that count as wearing armour, which would negate Unarmored Defense? If it does, can one AC be substituted for another? I've seen all these questions raised, and I've read or heard both yes and no and things in between on these matters.
I would either have to ruthlessly impose my own stance on such a section (and bear the inevitable nagging, prodding and virtual yelling from people who disagree), or I would have to write long, long sections, detailing the various options for interpretation and their consequences. I'd inevitably trip over all the data. And in the end, I'd have to admit that the real answer to almost any multiclass question is 'ask your DM'.

As for the question about feating for proficiency in natural weapons, I expect SharkForce has already answered to your satisfaction. If not, the best answer is, you guessed it, ask your DM.

@ SharkForce: Thanks!

[djreynolds]

One of the best guides yet, thank you. Druid is often an enigma is real life as it is in the game.

Couple of questions, instead of just cherry picking monk are there any of the monk archetype features that can be used in animal form such as the elemental or shadow jump, etc.

And are there any builds or homebrews out there for a pure spell casting druid with no animal forms, that could be interesting? What would be a fair trade? I'm working on a concept character that fights with natural weapons, such as a bone spear, giant turtle shell shield. He could be a barbarian but this more of a civilized build, a paladin like druid. I know there is "Oath of Ancients," but I want something different and more as an NPC pushing or herding the players.

[Spacehamster]

Going to add a part about multi classing for Druids? :)

[tieren]

wouldn't make a difference. when you transform you use the form's bonus (and your proficiency or lack thereof doesn't matter).

Well you keep class features other than senses, so a feat might carry over. Surely feats like mage slayer or sentinel carry over so why not feat based proficiency in natural weapons?

[HoarsHalberd]

wouldn't make a difference. when you transform you use the form's bonus (and your proficiency or lack thereof doesn't matter).

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/...h-proficiency/

Crawford disagrees.

QUOTE FAIRY AWAY!

[hymer]

@ djreynolds: Thank you!
As for the monk wild shape questions, I'm afraid the ebst you'll get from me is 'ask your DM'. Sorry. The rule s that your wild shape can use your class features if physically capable. What is or isn't physically possible can be argued from here 'till Tuesday. In the end, it'll be the DM's call.
As for builds, I haven't seen a lot. Homebrew I barely look at, either. So can't help you there, I'm afraid. I suggest you make a thread asking about these things.

@ Spacehamster: I might some day, though I kinda dobt it. I keep running up against the lack of specificity of the rules. There is no real agreement, e.g., on how monk's Unarmored Defense works with various Wild Shapes. Can the martial art form mastered by a humanoid monk really be translated to a quadruped (the wild shape must be physically capable of using a class feature)? Or a snake? A spider? What about Natural Armor, does that count as wearing armour, which would negate Unarmored Defense? If it does, can one AC be substituted for another? I've seen all these questions raised, and I've read or heard both yes and no and things in between on these matters.
I would either have to ruthlessly impose my own stance on such a section (and bear the inevitable nagging, prodding and virtual yelling from people who disagree), or I would have to write long, long sections, detailing the various options for interpretation and their consequences. I'd inevitably trip over all the data. And in the end, I'd have to admit that the real answer to almost any multiclass question is 'ask your DM'.

@ tieren: I think I just got what you're asking. The errata for the PHB states that Weapon Master can make you proficient in simple or martial weapons only. So I'm afraid it won't work. Nice thought, though.

[MaxWilson]

@ MaxWilson: Thank you! I'm glad the handbook has been of use.
I agree that smoke mephits have their place, but I stand by the wording. The scenarios you describe are a pretty good indication of just how versatile Conjure X spells are.
But I can't really include such an anecdote in a quick overview. At least now, it's in the thread, so that's something, and thanks for it! I did point out what abilities the smoke mephit possesses, so it will have to be up to the reader what to do with those effects.

Good enough for me! Thanks again.

[Tondrin]

Questiin: So our DM and our Druid are wondering how Barbarian 1/Moon Druid 6 would work and the second function of wild shape since it uses spell slots but is a class feature and not a spell and rage says "no spells."

Is there a consensus on that?

[hymer]

@ Tondrin: I'm pretty sure there's no real consensus. This is 5e after all.
The legalistic approach is quite simple: Yes, the multiclass druid can expend spell slots to heal via Combat Wild Shape even in a rage. Since both rage and wild shape have the restriction that you can't cast spells while under that effect, expending spell slots for healing obviously isn't casting spells.
That said, the DM may see things differently; the fine manipulation of magical energy may be seen as sufficiently delicate that rage makes it impossible. It could be said to be within the spirit of rage to rule it like that.

[magumbasauce]

Excellent, excellent guide. I've been reading and referring to this for like 3 weeks now, since we've decided to start a 5e campaign and started building characters. I'm new to D&D (my 2nd game ever, with the other currently being 3.5e) and this was hugely helpful in flushing out what many of the multitude of choices for druids are, how they might interact, and some of the strengths and weaknesses of each (or at least what to consider, which is even better). They are always the most complicated class, which adds to their appeal IMO.

We are including EE in our play, and we've played 1 time so far. Based on the group, I would be control/heals, so having a mutliclass or healer focus info would be helpful, though I can see that control/debuff can do as much for healing as direct heals. For example I took Frostbite and Thorn Whip for my cantrips, so forcing a disadvantage on enemies and having them miss (avoiding doing damage) is just as good (really better at lower levels) than direct healing.

For preparing spells for a halfling, I added Longstrider, Ice Knife, Goodberry, Healing Word, and Entangle. I felt a good mix for my 2 slots available with options for whatever might come up, but mostly I wanted to question/mention the combo of Longstrider with Cure Wounds (a touch spell, aka running around healing people) and Thorn Whip (control/movement, aka running into just the right spot to move an enemy). Having only played 1 session, I'm not sure how useful having Longstrider equipped will be, but again as a halfling, I feel like my movement is limited.

For example if I'm trying to help someone out by allowing them to move away from an enemy, I might Thorn Whip their attacker to pull them away so they don't get an attack of opportunity, and so my ally doesn't have to use an action to Disengage. Assuming of course that using my action to cast TW would server a better purpose allowing them to use one of their actions to heal or move in a certain direction for the flow of battle.

One other thing i wanted to mention, as I've given a ton of thought on TW. Sorry if this isn't the appropriate discussion for this, but i thought it cool and really an extension in-line with other spells. I discussed with DM about a variant for it after researching it for a while (finding questions about the movement aspect being optional, which obviously it isn't). The variant is that if I wanted to make the movement optional, I could use a spell slot to cast it, essentially "casting it with more skill", meaning that I can better control the whip and make to do things like slash across their face or their back, or wrap around their foot to trip them, or grab their wrist to disarm, or wrap around their waist or neck and spin them to face a certain direction. Some of these might require higher spell slots, but the damage would be the same since the thorns would be doing the damage. I suppose they could grow longer to do more damage, but still the control of the whip seemed a more interesting aspect.

So yea, upvote for mutli-class! at least in terms of heals (for now!) Thanks again for all the work and awesome info!

[hymer]

@ magumbasauce: Thank you! I’m glad you’ve found a use for it. And you're right not to take my recommendations as anything other than observations and suggestions. I don't claim to have all the answers (or space to write them down).

Longstrider does indeed give halflings more than it gives most PCs. You go from just beneath average speed to just above. Now you can run away, or run people down. Or put differently, it’s a 40% speed boost to you, and 33% to most PCs.
You’re right about Thornwhip being easier to use with high movement; I’ve even mentioned that under Thornwhip (I just checked, because if I hadn’t, I ought to - it's a good point). Sounds like you’re off to a good start! You gotta protect those big, squishy friends from nasty monsters!

Generally, the lower the range of the spell, the more important is movement speed in using it best. I’m not sure I’d use half my spell slots on buffing my speed, but then I’ve not yet played a halfling druid. But I’d certainly consider it later on, when I had more slots. Then, my worry would probably be the spot on the prepared list. But at least it’s a decent duration and no Concentration. Something to like!

It’s nice you’ve got a flexible DM, who’s willing to have fun with being creative! If you want to talk more about it, I suggest you head over to the Homebrew Design forum, which is the intended place.

As for multiclassing as a healer, well… My first instinct is always to go straight druid. And if you don’t, keep the other class to a minimum. And I’ll add that getting to level 5 and third level spells is great, so often you’d not multiclass until you’ve gotten there.
But, all that said, there is a great multiclass option if you want to be a better healer: Cleric of Life. It gives you some extra spells (Bless is great, e.g.), and frees up a spell or three on your prepared list (you won't need Healing Word on both prepared lists, after all). It's an easy multiclass, being Wis-based. You won't get much out of the armour proficiency, as you still must abide by the no-metal rule. But Life comes with Disciple of Life, which adds two plus spell level to the amount healed with spells. And there is a tweet to the effect that you get that on every Goodberry… Yeah, 40hp healing for a first level slot. Madness, I tell you!
Edit: Can't find the tweet, but the Sage says it here on page 6.

Even so, always beware when multiclassing as caster. You’ll generally be getting healing and restoration spells around the time you need them with a straight full-caster. Multiclassing sets you back in spell advancement (and not just in healing), so you better get something pretty good in return.

Edit: The thread is coming up on 115k views I just noticed... Whoah.

[JumboWheat01]

I thank you for this guide, Hymer. I've always found druids interesting. But I need to ask for a point here...

When reading my PHB, I noticed that after the bit about having unlimited Wild Shapes in the Archdruid upgrade it says (on page 68:)

Additionally, you can ignore the verbal and somatic components of your druid spells, as well as any material components that lack a cost and aren't consumed by a spell. You gain this benefit in both your normal shape and your beast shape from Wild Shape.

While that would make it extremely more powerful for Moon Druids as they can access more spells since they can simply ignore the material cost, wouldn't the ability to silently or still cast any spell also be extremely useful for a Land Druid? You could, say, be tied up or held down by a creature and still unleash natural destruction or control on them. You could be gagged or under a Silence spell and still cast a spell since you could simply ignore the verbal component of it. That's quite powerful for someone focusing on spell casting, isn't it?

[hymer]

I thank you for this guide, Hymer. I've always found druids interesting. But I need to ask for a point here...

When reading my PHB, I noticed that after the bit about having unlimited Wild Shapes in the Archdruid upgrade it says (on page 68:)


While that would make it extremely more powerful for Moon Druids as they can access more spells since they can simply ignore the material cost, wouldn't the ability to silently or still cast any spell also be extremely useful for a Land Druid? You could, say, be tied up or held down by a creature and still unleash natural destruction or control on them. You could be gagged or under a Silence spell and still cast a spell since you could simply ignore the verbal component of it. That's quite powerful for someone focusing on spell casting, isn't it?

You're welcome!

That the Archdruid ability continues on to page 68 was actually news to me. I never noticed, so well done on catching that. It's very thematically appropriate, the master of shapes and nature has now grown beyond the confines of mere birth. The druid's form is now entirely incidental, the spirit is what matters.

So how much does it change my perception of the ability? Well, it mostly makes it even better for moon druid, who can now access nearly their whole array of spells in wild shape - but as the text implies it only works for beast shapes, perhaps not. That'll be for the DM to decide.
Being able to cast under Silence is okay, I guess. I like better that you can now cast freely while stealthing, minor as it might be. Silence effects will by now be pretty far gone, and with Freedom of Movement, wild shapes, and what feats and magic items have been picked up by now, it would be quite difficult to keep an unwilling druid inside a Silence spell. A large area with that effect might make a difference, but at level 20 the DM is just going to make it an antimagic field or a magic dead zone anyway, right?
As for casting while bound and gagged, if people could do that to you, they already defeated you. And you can get out of binds and shackles via aforementioned Freedom of Movement, or (if you were caught unprepared) via wild shaping into a snake or mouse.

So I don't think it shakes things up that much. If you think of it, how often are you really constrained by components, beyond for wild shape purposes? I don't think it's happened yet with the druid I play, though that may change if I start scouting.
All the same, I'm very grateful you pointed it out to me!

[OttoT]

I didn't see mention of the enormous downside of early wild shapes, no swim or fly speeds till certain levels, making early game druids really gimped in versatility.

[SharkForce]

as opposed to the way that everyone else gets fly and swim speeds for free? oh wait, they don't.

maybe the reason it doesn't mention the downside is that the supposed downside is shared by everyone else in the game. it would be like listing as a drawback of the class that you need to eat, or that you don't have infinite hit points.

[OttoT]

as opposed to the way that everyone else gets fly and swim speeds for free? oh wait, they don't.

maybe the reason it doesn't mention the downside is that the supposed downside is shared by everyone else in the game. it would be like listing as a drawback of the class that you need to eat, or that you don't have infinite hit points.

Well he mentions the forms for their mobility but makes no mention of the transformation limitations of the class early on so it's kind of a big deal.

[hymer]

Well he mentions the forms for their mobility but makes no mention of the transformation limitations of the class early on so it's kind of a big deal.

Are you saying there's the implication that second level druids can use their wild shape to fly? I know I don't say so explicitly for obvious reasons. Could you be a little more specific as to where?

[OttoT]

Are you saying there's the implication that second level druids can use their wild shape to fly? I know I don't say so explicitly for obvious reasons. Could you be a little more specific as to where?

I just didn't see you mention the limitations put in place by the table in regards to wildshape restrictions by level so I merely was wondering what you thought of it and if you had mentioned it and I had missed it. My whole plan was to be a stealthy sneaky druid who transformed into birds and such but I can't do that till level 8 which is stupid since a wizard can just cast fly on a rogue before that.

[georgie_leech]

I just didn't see you mention the limitations put in place by the table in regards to wildshape restrictions by level so I merely was wondering what you thought of it and if you had mentioned it and I had missed it. My whole plan was to be a stealthy sneaky druid who transformed into birds and such but I can't do that till level 8 which is stupid since a wizard can just cast fly on a rogue before that.

With the obvious caveats of requiring Long Rest resources, potentially not lasting as long, and the fact that a humanoid creature flying through the air is a heck of a lot more suspicious than a bird/bat appropriate to the environment would be. It coming online a few levels later doesn't invalidate the trick.

[MaxWilson]

I just didn't see you mention the limitations put in place by the table in regards to wildshape restrictions by level so I merely was wondering what you thought of it and if you had mentioned it and I had missed it. My whole plan was to be a stealthy sneaky druid who transformed into birds and such but I can't do that till level 8 which is stupid since a wizard can just cast fly on a rogue before that.

On the other hand, the wizard can't maintain Fly and Invisibility simultaneously, while a druid can maintain Pass Without Trace in wildshape with no problems.

Before 8th level you can be a super sneaky ferret (or cobra) instead of a bird. :) That comes online at level 3.

[hymer]

I just didn't see you mention the limitations put in place by the table in regards to wildshape restrictions by level so I merely was wondering what you thought of it and if you had mentioned it and I had missed it. My whole plan was to be a stealthy sneaky druid who transformed into birds and such but I can't do that till level 8 which is stupid since a wizard can just cast fly on a rogue before that.

I don't think I've mentioned it specifically, but I am (and was) quite aware of the limitation. I consider that knowledge much like knowing that you can't cast second level spells at level 1, to be frank. The guide was never meant to be read without also reading the relevant sections in the PHB.
That said, I don't see why I shouldn't give a reminder of it under the On Beasts spoiler. If it can save some readers their frustration that should be reason enough.

[Inept]

Thanks for this forum, very helpful.

I started playing a druid a couple of months ago, now reached the dizzying heights of level 5!

I read with interest the discussion on animal handling etc. as this cropped up in out games. I take the point that it should be based on the primary stat quoted more often than not, but situational modifiers determined by the DM are always an option. The most telling comment was the one that essentially echoes my own thoughts...

The Druid is an expert in the wilderness with animals and nature. if you reduce his/her abilities in that area by selecting a non core stat, then you weaken the character and prevent its expertise showing.

The analogy would be to have a rogue use strength to pick a lock. That may be the case in very rare circumstances like lifting a bar from a door quietly, but it shouldn't be normal!

My gripe, isn't about stats or abilities, but with the speak with animals spell.

This spell potentially has a wealth of information to offer the canny druid. Most animals have intelligence enough to understand basic concepts like food/fear/danger etc. more intelligent ones, such as creatures with 2-4 intelligence would have more to say! indeed whilst it would be like speaking to a young child, the information to be had would be significant.

It would be helpful to have some sort of rationale for what type of information animals (and plants) could provide based on the intelligence they possess. maybe a table with some basic informational areas?


Forgot to add, I'm also a bit surprised that druids don't rate a companion animal!

[hymer]

Glad you’ve found it useful!

As for your particular gripes, the first one is down to the design philosophy of 5th edition: “Make rulings, not rules.” Or in other words, ask your DM. Whether talking animals are more like Narnian animals or more like our talking parrots will be entirely up to the DM, so a little conversation about expectations there may be appropriate. With the DM, not the animals.
As for animal companions, you do have Conjure Animals to do something of the kind. And if you want something more permanent, maybe a combination of Animal Friendship and Speak with Animals could be used to get yourself a permanent companion. Or you might have to wait for Awaken. So, another thing to bring up with the DM.

[tieren]

This is really specific to my own experience, but I would like some advice on what would be the best beast shape to fall as before you get flying shapes.

Premise: assume 3rd level druid falls off a high cliff or bridge, assume grabbing the cliff face is not an option and you are going to fall 100 feet down and hit the bottom. What can you wildshape into to avoid dying from fall damage?

In the actual game the whole group was falling and I suggested he turn into a whale so we'd at least have something squishy to land on.

Druid wanted a glider, like a flying squirrel. I thought something super tiny, like a normal spider trailing silk or an ant wouldn't suffer much from a fall like that.

[hymer]

@ tieren: Umm... Well, RAW speaking, he'd want something with as much hp as possible, because that's all that really matters in surviving a fall, absent any specific abilities. And s/he couldn't turn into a whale (or a bowl of petunias). At level 3, the moon druid should probably pick a Giant Hyena (45hp if I remember correctly). 100' fall is 10d6, which averages to 35 damage, so there's excellent chances of surviving even without needing death saves. Useful for the group, who may need someone to stabilize them if they aren't killed outright. A land druid probably won't find anything much better than the 19 hp draft horse (as counterintuitive as it is).

In reality, it's true that very small animals like insects have a low terminal velocity and also (due to less weight) need to absorb further lessened shock when landing - compared to a human. Cats are also good at surviving falls, as discussed on QI. Had the druid seen a flying squirrel? They're pretty rare. And does their gliding count as flight? Because that would be illegal.
If I was the DM, and the player was scrambling for ideas, I'd let him/her make a Nature check to come up with the best form in the instant before it's too late. And I wouldn't suggest very small creatures, as they risk being blown very far away by even a slight wind, or picked up by a passing swallow, which would be embarassing (and annoying for the swallow if it swallowed...).

If you want more discussion on this, may I suggest a fresh thread? I'm happy to answer, but in this thread I'd rather avoid the long debates.

[OttoT]

It's really quite simple, a common chicken, light body and wings for drag. A chicken can't fly but they float slowly down to safety.

It works in Minecraft.

[georgie_leech]

It's really quite simple, a common chicken, light body and wings for drag. A chicken can't fly but they float slowly down to safety.

I think you might be thinking of Cuccos.

[MaxWilson]

(Moved to Uses for Mold Earth)