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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by jhansonxi View Post
    I think Magic Initiate is underrated. With the Wizard list you can get mage armor, blade ward, and fire bolt.

    Mage armor will improve the AC of most any beast without a negative dex mod, lasts 8 hours, and doesn't require concentration. Generally worse than barkskin but can be equivalent with some beasts and better with Flying Snake. Both can be active at the same time (you choose which has priority as per the SAC under "Character Creation"). Can still use a shield with it and you avoid the DM debate about beast-compatible humanoid armor.

    Blade ward is useful for 1st-round defense when you have to get past a bunch of minions to get to the BBEG. You can't attack that round (without a fighter dip) but it lasts until the end of your next turn.

    Fire bolt is a better ranged attack cantrip than the normal druid options.

    With a Warlock list you can get hex for damage improvement (not with multiattack actions though) and eldritch blast. Alternatively armor of agathys can buff low-HP critters but that's more useful in subterfuge campaigns. Unfortunately warlocks only get mage armor as an invocation.

    With a Ranger list you can get hunter's mark which increases your base attack damage so it's less likely to be resisted than hex but rangers don't get cantrips.
    Blade ward is terrible, you're better of just taking the dodge action, or even disengage. Fire bolt is decent yes, but it would take intelligence, which is a druid dump stat. Mage armour could be good, but barkskin is better.

    Eldritch blast has the same problem as fire bolt, using a non-important stat. Armour of Agathys and hex are pretty good though. Hunters mark is pretty good, but ranger is not one of the classes you cant take it for (only cantrip-9 casters, and then warlocks if you don't count pact magic as normal casting).

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    @ hansonxi: Thanks for your opinion!
    Mage armor works poorer than you might imagine, especially later on. Beasts tend to get more and more natural armor to go with their dex modifier as you go up in CR, and you wonít get both. At level 4, you may be looking at a two point bonus to AC, but it won't last. As someone has mentioned earlier in the thread IIRC, mage armor goes rather well with an air or fire elemental form. But by then, canít the arcane caster in the party spare you a first level spell slot?
    And then thereís the whole dispel magic or getting into fights after 8 hours have passed.
    It neednít be bad, but your sales pitch needs some counter-tones Ė hereby given.

    Bladeward, well, why not just use the Dodge action? Itís free.

    Firebolt only works well if you have the Intelligence to back it up. And you shouldn't have.

    Hex is great at level 1. But the damage stays low, and it takes up your Concentration. It cannot compete at all with higher level Concentration spells for that important resource.

    Eldritch Blast has much the same problem as firebolt; you donít want to build up your charisma to the point where it will really count. It's a little better than firebolt due to the damage type, and could be good as a fallback, I guess. But it's not enough to justify a feat IMO.

    Armor of Agathys has the lack of scaling problem of Hex.

    Magic Initiate canít grant you Ranger spells.

    Edit: My thanks to the two shadowmonks up there. And:

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    On an unrelated note: if you summon an Air Elemental, consider asking a wizard to Mage Armor it up to AC 18, one better than an Earth Elemental.
    Last edited by hymer; 2016-06-18 at 01:49 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    I like magic initiate but I do not really like some of your choices for spells. For instance is your druid going to have much higher than normal int or cha? If not firebolt and EB actually will deal less damage than your typical druid cantrips due to accuracy issues. Some of the others are kind of niche or have similar issues.
    Moon druid physical stats are mostly dump stats since they are replaced in beast form. It's not hard to have a good INT or CHA. Opponent AC are low at low CR. By the time you are encountering high AC opponents you have better spells and Wild Shape forms.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by Belac93 View Post
    Blade ward is terrible, you're better of just taking the dodge action, or even disengage.
    Depends on the opponents. Higher CR opponents will mostly ignore your AC so resistance is better (obviously higher HP, AC, and resistance is best).

    Quote Originally Posted by Belac93 View Post
    Eldritch blast has the same problem as fire bolt, using a non-important stat.
    Moon druid physical stats are mostly dump stats. It's not hard to get a decent INT or CHA. Low CR opponents will have lower AC so they're not hard to hit. You'll have better spells and beast forms available by the time you encounter higher AC opponents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belac93 View Post
    Hunters mark is pretty good, but ranger is not one of the classes you cant take it for (only cantrip-9 casters, and then warlocks if you don't count pact magic as normal casting).
    Missed that rangers aren't allowed. Warlocks are specifically allowed.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    @ hansonxi: Thanks for your opinion!
    Mage armor works poorer than you might imagine, especially later on. Beasts tend to get more and more natural armor to go with their dex modifier as you go up in CR, and you wonít get both. At level 4, you may be looking at a two point bonus to AC, but it won't last.
    It lasts longer than barkskin and doesn't require concentration. As I stated in the original post - most any beast with a non-negative DEX modifier will at least break even with barkskin. Most will have an increase. Flying Snake will have AC 17.
    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    But by then, canít the arcane caster in the party spare you a first level spell slot?
    Nothing in the PHB indicates that an arcane caster is a party requirement to play. If your party doesn't have one then they can't help you.
    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    And then thereís the whole dispel magic or getting into fights after 8 hours have passed.
    Barkskin is not immune to dispel magic. Gaining the ability to cast mage armor, via Magic Initiate feat or otherwise, does not prevent the use of barkskin.
    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    Bladeward, well, why not just use the Dodge action? Itís free.
    Depends on the opponents. Resistance is better against higher-CR opponents with high hit bonuses.
    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    Firebolt only works well if you have the Intelligence to back it up. And you shouldn't have.
    Physical stats are mostly dump stats for moon druids and land druids should be hiding in the back anyways. Firebolt has higher damage and better range than produce flame. It's not the only cantrip option either. Like with any other attack cantrip, they're best at low levels unless you have a class ability to increase it (like agonizing blast).
    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    Hex is great at level 1. But the damage stays low, and it takes up your Concentration. It cannot compete at all with higher level Concentration spells for that important resource.
    What other attack buffs work in beast form at L2-17?
    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    Eldritch Blast has much the same problem as firebolt; you donít want to build up your charisma to the point where it will really count. It's a little better than firebolt due to the damage type, and could be good as a fallback, I guess. But it's not enough to justify a feat IMO.
    At low levels it counts. At high levels you'll have better options. It's only a cantrip.
    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    Armor of Agathys has the lack of scaling problem of Hex.
    So does many other spells. That wasn't the point. Do you have a better idea of how to HP buff a 1 HP beast form?
    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    Magic Initiate canít grant you Ranger spells.
    My mistake. I knew that hunter's mark and hex are similar. Would take a ranger dip to get it but I can't imagine that would be worth it.

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    One thing that could be interesting to do would be to go through monstrous creatures and earmark "potential" DM allowed beasts to give druids idea's of what they could suggest to their DM's for added forms, especially at higher CR's where choice is limited. (I may just do this myself when I get the time).


    For example Owlbears would make for an interesting CR3 option which is perfectly inline with CR3 beasts, and honestly other then there potential "unnatural origins" seem to pretty much be beasts in every respect.

    There's a ton of other "beast-like" monstrous creatures like Griffons and Grick's that are un-intelligent, non-magical and none of them seem to be any stronger then plain beasts for the same CR (or at least non inappropriately so).


    There's also the possibility of the semi-intelligent monsters like Hook Horror or Ettercap(which at least could be used to represent a stronger spider).
    Last edited by Regulas; 2016-06-18 at 05:49 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    for an animal, it would be relatively straightforward to increase CR of just about anything. you want an even bigger giant scorpion? no problem, just bump the numbers up a bit. they don't have much in the way of weird abilities to figure out, generally speaking.

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by jhansonxi View Post
    Moon druid physical stats are mostly dump stats since they are replaced in beast form. It's not hard to have a good INT or CHA. Opponent AC are low at low CR. By the time you are encountering high AC opponents you have better spells and Wild Shape forms.
    Even for a Moon Druid, Dex and Con are better than boosting Int or Cha primarily for a cantrip. You're not always wildshaped, and higher Initiative and HP will benefit you far more than a backup ranged option that you're burning a feat for. Land Druids can still be hit by ranged attacks or AoE spells (and would be a prime target for them), so dumping Dex and Con for them isn't a given either.
    Last edited by Saggo; 2016-06-18 at 11:04 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by jhansonxi View Post
    What other attack buffs work in beast form at L2-17?
    Well, there's Fog Cloud (to gain advantage on attacks in Giant Constrictor Snake or Earth Elemental form). And of course there's the "attack buff" that comes from having a metric ton of wolves or other animals adding 16d4+16(ish) points of damage to your side of the combat via Conjure Animals. Some people hate minions but they certainly are effective.
    I am on GITP to discuss things I find interesting about 5E. If I am responding to your post, it's because I find it interesting, even if I disagree with it. I don't mean to be aggressive, and I apologize if I come across as such. Please don't take it personally.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by Saggo View Post
    Even for a Moon Druid, Dex and Con are better than boosting Int or Cha primarily for a cantrip.
    At no point in my posts did I ever recommend or suggest having high INT or CHA for a cantrip from a secondary class list. My current character has a higher INT because of the campaign, role within the party, and theme. I took fire bolt because of the prevalence of ranged attackers within that campaign. The general utility of the spells I chose for that campaign, or the lack thereof, does not diminish the flexibility or utility of the feat. The feat doesn't require an attack cantrip to be taken.

    IOW, stop bikeshedding.

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Well, there's Fog Cloud (to gain advantage on attacks in Giant Constrictor Snake or Earth Elemental form). And of course there's the "attack buff" that comes from having a metric ton of wolves or other animals adding 16d4+16(ish) points of damage to your side of the combat via Conjure Animals.
    All good choices and all require concentration which is another reason I use Magic Initiate to get mage armor to reduce the need for barkskin. It's not the only way to use the feat but it works well in campaigns that aren't going past level 12 or so where opponent attack bonuses make AC irrelevant.

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by jhansonxi View Post
    At no point in my posts did I ever recommend or suggest having high INT or CHA for a cantrip from a secondary class list.
    Your intent wasn't obvious, but very well. Dex and Con still aren't good choices for dump stats for either druid, and you did argue otherwise.

    You can also make your stats anything for roleplay and flavor, it's not very useful to assume they'll be sub-optimal on purpose.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by Saggo View Post
    Your intent wasn't obvious, but very well. Dex and Con still aren't good choices for dump stats for either druid, and you did argue otherwise.
    Not just me - hymer rates DEX as red for MD, only green for LD.

    For the record, my current L2 variant human MD stats are 10/12/13/14/16/10. The 13 CON will be fixed at L4 when I get Resilient constitution. I'm not the min/max type because I don't like being a cripple in any situation that arises. Also the players in my group have widely varying schedule conflicts so I can't count on a full team or even a predictable group skill set at any particular session. The current campaign I'm in is only going to L6 at the most so long-term/high-CR encounters are not a character development consideration.

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by jhansonxi View Post
    Not just me - hymer rates DEX as red for MD, only green for LD.
    Don't drag me into this, particularly like that! The only real dump stat for a druid is strength, which my guide reflects.
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    If SCAG and EE races are added, I think aarokockra and ghostwise halfling are blue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain.


    BRING BACK ALIGNMENT LANGUAGES!!!

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    @ Klorox: You'll find the aarakocra under 'Elemental Evil Races' in post 1, and the ghostwise halfling under Swordcoast Musings in post 5.
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by hymer View Post
    @ Klorox: You'll find the aarakocra under 'Elemental Evil Races' in post 1, and the ghostwise halfling under Swordcoast Musings in post 5.
    Oh my, I'm so sorry! LOL. Totally missed it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain.


    BRING BACK ALIGNMENT LANGUAGES!!!

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    No worries!
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    It might be me but Animal Messenger has a lot of hidden potential.

    Between snake-tsunami, freaking people put (or confusing an enemy... Really put the actor feat to good use), or keeping a level 20 wizard from regaining their spells... Animal Messenger is a gold rated spell.

    Edit

    Also the druid (plus Bard and Nature Cleric) has one of the funniest spells to use Warcaster with.

    Animal Friendship... Fluff it as booping the animal on the nose :p

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Can I use Wild Shape when I'm in Wild Shape? There's nowhere in the Wild Shape description that says you can go directly from wild shape to wild shape. It says that you stay in your shape until the duration runs out or you run out of hit points or you spend a bonus action to return to normal form. When I use Wild Shape I can't used it again because I'm still using it, I need go back to normal form to transform again. But, some people insist saying that you can, so I have a doubt about it.
    Last edited by Ryuu Hayato; 2016-09-08 at 10:01 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuu Hayato View Post
    Can I use Wild Shape when I'm in Wild Shape? There's nowhere in the Wild Shape description that says you can go directly from wild shape to wild shape. It says that you stay in your shape until the duration runs out or you run out of hit points or you spend a bonus action to return to normal form. When I use Wild Shape I can't used it again because I'm still using it, I need go back to normal form to transform again. But, some people insist saying that you can, so I have a doubt about it.
    It's a contested topic. Mike Mearls says you can, for what it's worth. The reasoning behind that is that you generally keep your class abilities while wild shaped, and one of those abilities is wild shape. So if you have uses left, you can do it.
    In the end, the DM decides.

    Edit: The guide has been updated with races and monsters from Volo's Guide to Monsters.
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuu Hayato View Post
    Can I use Wild Shape when I'm in Wild Shape? There's nowhere in the Wild Shape description that says you can go directly from wild shape to wild shape. It says that you stay in your shape until the duration runs out or you run out of hit points or you spend a bonus action to return to normal form. When I use Wild Shape I can't used it again because I'm still using it, I need go back to normal form to transform again. But, some people insist saying that you can, so I have a doubt about it.
    Relevant tweet from Crawford: https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECr...99734664835072 (I don't remember how to mark links and the auto version crashes mobile... Or maybe it automatically did it!)

    The text:

    @samiam8910
    @JeremyECrawford Is it intended that Druids can shift from one beast form to another, or do they have to revert first?
    A druid can use Wild Shape to change from one beast shape to another. #DnD
    EDIT: The addition of the quetzalcoatlus and the brontosaurus, and to a lesser extent the cow make me very happy, as does more races with Powerful Build. I've loved the idea of making a trucker Druid, and these forms are fantastic for heavy-duty hauling.
    Last edited by RickAllison; 2016-11-24 at 01:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan
    All it takes is once:

    "Grandpa, tells us that story about the Ricalison the Great again!"

    Hours later...

    "... and that, kids, is how he conquered the world with dancing lights."

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Any updates to Volvo soon?

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by spartan_ah View Post
    Any updates to Volvo soon?
    He already did, it is one of the later posts in the guide, with the EEPC and SCAG.
    Quote Originally Posted by krugaan
    All it takes is once:

    "Grandpa, tells us that story about the Ricalison the Great again!"

    Hours later...

    "... and that, kids, is how he conquered the world with dancing lights."

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Seems that a druid with a 7th level slot can now summon quite a high CR army by using conjure fey with a 7th level slot to summon a CR7 Korred, which could then in turn summon a CR6 Galeb-Duhr, which could then animate 2 pseudo Galeb-Duhr boulders. The boulder ability does only last a minute though.

    Of course a simple Fire Storm might always end u being a better use of the spell slot.

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    @ dejarnjc: That one struck me too. The chain of command may make it a little clunky, though. First you have to tell the korred it's time to go full boulders, and then the korred has to tell the galeb-duhr. If the initiative is against you, this could be a significant delay. But it surely is a lot of heavy friends to bring to a rumble.
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Great guide, thank you!

    In the Volo's section, you mention that pack tactics could be good for combat wild shape, but is better for other classes. I feel like I'm lissing something here --wouldn't advantage for a beast form be just as good as advantage for any pc class? In fact, wouldn't it actually be better, since Sunlight Sensitivity doesn't carry over to wild shape?

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    @ Zene: You're welcome, and thank you for the kind words.

    What I'm trying to say is that when it works for you, it's good. But it won't work as often for a druid as it would for, say, a fighter, ranger or rogue. Those classes spend as many of their rounds as they can making attack rolls (when they aren't trying to set up better chances for their attack rolls), so getting an easy source of advantage is a big thing for them. Druids have more options, and most of those options are spells, out of which only cantrips (IIRC) involve attack rolls. So the better (and more powerful) part of the druid's arsenal, spells, isn't improved through Pack Tactics. That's why I claim that other classes get more out of Pack Tactics, because it affects the greater part of what they intend to do in battle.

    I hope that cleared it up! Oh, and as for whether Sunlight Sensitivity goes away in wild shape, I agree that it ought to, but really it's the DM's call.
    Last edited by hymer; 2017-02-01 at 03:45 AM.
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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    I am playing a druid that is circle of the Shepard would it be better to take Alert or Observant?

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    Default Re: 5e Druid Handbook - Land & Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by JobsforFun View Post
    I am playing a druid that is circle of the Shepard would it be better to take Alert or Observant?
    No, I don't think so. If your wisdom is uneven, I could see an argument for taking Observant to up it, if dex and con are both even. And if your DM uses a lot of stealthy opponents you need to be able to spot (and correctly uses your passive perception to let you spot them) then there's reason there, but not enough in itself. And if you act as the party scout, then Alert has a place. But you have Beast Speech, so I assume most of your scouting is done by one of your minions.

    Aside from these specific reasons you might consider, I'd suggest upping your wis, or taking Warcaster or Resilient (Con), or (depending on your level) even upping con or dex rather than pick up either of those two feats.

    If you already have both those feats, and wis 20, then I suppose I guess I might after much trepidation suggest taking Alert if you don't fancy something like Lucky. +5 initiaitve is nothing to sneeze at.
    Last edited by hymer; 2017-02-03 at 01:55 PM.
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