Picking up Pathfinder

[Coidzor]

@ Perception: 4e and 5e did the same thing and it's a good idea; it just plain speeds up play. Especially since now it doesn't take a full-round action to search a 5-foot square (seriously, what were they thinking?)

More powerful, but thank the 12 gods because streamlining that stuff.

I don't think it's equivalent at all. Dungeoncrasher improves Fighter in one very specific way, and if you don't want that particular playstyle for your character you get to suck eggs. And Zhentarim Fighter is setting-specific in addition to being obtuse (the name gives you zero indication as to what it does the way Dungeoncrasher, Lore Warden, or Mutation Fighter do.)

Then I'm very sorry to have disappointed you, though you seem to be hung up on minutia rather than on the expansion of what the Fighter is able to do with those options, for some reason.

We all know that the centralization of the PRD and PFSRD is an advantage, this has already been established and wasn't terribly relevant to the quip about system mastery.

Multiclassing isn't supposed to be encouraged. Even without the system incentivizing it, the experienced players who are versed with it will do it anyway if it helps their build, and the newer ones won't be intimidated by showing up to the table and seeing everyone else with some 12-word-long alphabet-soup Abjurant Champion or Unseen Seer or Arcane Heirophant build sitting across from them.

Should it be discouraged, though? I say no, if you're going to have it. PF devs said yes, you agree with them, sure, whatever, and danzibr's players do too, so that's all peachy. The point stands, if they hate multiclassing, then they're going to be pleased with Jason Buhlman's offered solution.

[Ssalarn]

By the way, what do you mean by "P.5 over 3.P"? I have never seen anyone use terminology like that before.

P.5 would be using Pathfinder as the core system and updating 3.5 materials to run in that system as needed (like if you wanted to play a Dragonfire Adept, which doesn't have a PF counterpart).

3.P is using 3.5 as the core system and converting Pathfinder materials over as needed (like if you wanted to play an Alchemist or Summoner, who don't really have a straight 3.5 equivalent).

I, personally, do P.5, though with Dreamscarred Press around, there's less and less material I actually need to convert, so we're almost pure PF now (counting 3pp materials). Jeremy and Andreas have their flagship Ultimate Psionics, ErrantX and the gang ported over the Tome of Battle subsystem, I did an Incarnum equivalent called Akashic Mysteries that's doing very well, Fax_Celestis is doing a Truenamer port that's shaping up very nicely, and Alexander Agunas and Radiant House (Radiance House? Can't recall at the moment) did an awesome port of the Binder. With shadow magic on the horizon for DSP, I'm pretty settled in Pathfinder.

[Psyren]

Are you saying the full round action per 5ft square is too much or too little?

It sounds like you're saying it's too much time, but some quick calculations say at that rate it takes about 5 minutes to search a small house that's 1300 square ft. I imagine anyone looking for their lost keys can spend at least that long, and sometimes much longer. And imagine how much more cautiously you might go if instead of trying to find your lost keys, you were making sure there wasn't a death trap waiting to kill you if you stepped in the wrong spot.

The caution is already represented by making it take a move action. So no sprinting through the dungeon while you look for things, and if you truly must double-check every square you can move at the same speed as in 3.5 (5ft. step) - but getting two rolls every 5 feet instead of one, i.e. being exceptionally thorough.

But when traps are easy to spot, you shouldn't need to move that slowly for ease of play.

I dunno, having Search and Perception being separate makes sense to me. Combining Spot/Listen? Yeah, definitely. That's just a waste of skill points, just like having Hide and Move Silently separate is a tax on anyone wanting to be sneaky. But Perception IMO is all about what you passively notice while looking about, while Search is about what you find when you actively look for something. It's the difference between a Ranger noticing animals hiding in the brush vs an Investigator finding a clue at a crime scene.

"Passive vs. Active searching" is already accounted for too, by the Take 10 rules. You don't need a separate skill to model that.

[Vhaidara]

Ssalarn basically covered why I've made the full transition to PF instead of 3.5. Throw Spheres of Power on top of DSP and Radiance House's Occultist, then toss in Paizo's Alchemist and my Mutant class (because playing an Eidolon) and you have a system that is entirely T3 classes. The floors might drop to mid T4, but everyone should be able to contribute both in and out of combat.

[Psyren]

Then I'm very sorry to have disappointed you, though you seem to be hung up on minutia rather than on the expansion of what the Fighter is able to do with those options, for some reason.

We all know that the centralization of the PRD and PFSRD is an advantage, this has already been established and wasn't terribly relevant to the quip about system mastery.

You didn't disappoint me - and I'm not sure what the centralization of the PFSRD has to do with what I said "Zhentarim Fighter" would be both setting-specific and obtuse even if a DM had a legal tool to look it up with on the fly.

Should it be discouraged, though? I say no, if you're going to have it. PF devs said yes, you agree with them, sure, whatever, and danzibr's players do too, so that's all peachy. The point stands, if they hate multiclassing, then they're going to be pleased with Jason Buhlman's offered solution.

I don't see it as being discouraged. The only thing you lose for multiclassing in PF is favored class bonuses, which are nowhere near the XP penalty 3.5 saddled you with. And if you're willing to houserule away 3.5's XP penalty (as so many groups do) you can just as easily houserule in contining your FCB progression while multiclassing in PF.

[Almarck]

You can also add Warlock ports to the list if you want to reduce the number of classes you're dependent on having to port over. Interjection games has a pretty interesting take on the Warlock's mechanics in Ultimate Ethermagic, making them way more interesting if you ask me. Sadly, it's not on PFSRD, which is a shame as they have some really neat base class concepts (only Tinkerer's primary materials were added to PFSRD)

[Vhaidara]

You can also add Warlock ports to the list if you want to reduce the number of classes you're dependent on having to port over. Interjection games has a pretty interesting take on the Warlock's mechanics in Ultimate Ethermagic, making them way more interesting if you ask me. Sadly, it's not on PFSRD, which is a shame as they have some really neat base class concepts (only Tinkerer's primary materials were added to PFSRD)

Actually, Spheres is a solid system for warlocks.

[Ssalarn]

You can also add Warlock ports to the list if you want to reduce the number of classes you're dependent on having to port over. Interjection games has a pretty interesting take on the Warlock's mechanics in Ultimate Ethermagic, making them way more interesting if you ask me. Sadly, it's not on PFSRD, which is a shame as they have some really neat base class concepts (only Tinkerer's primary materials were added to PFSRD)

The Kineticist from the Occult Adventures playtest also is very warlock-y, what with the all day blasting a few abilities that are literally direct ports of Warlock invocations. As I understand it, the final version will have a bump to 4+Int skill points and composite blasts baked into the chassis as well, so it should be pretty decent, if themed a little differently then the 3.5 Warlock.

Spheres of Power can also offer a couple different classes that can cover the Warlock niche. The Fey Adept, Hedge Witch, and Symbiat can all grab the Destruction Sphere for an all day scaling blast they can build on, and offer different paths into the concepts the 3.5 Warlock can cover.

**EDIT**

I see Keledrath was heading in the same direction I was.

[Almarck]

Actually, Spheres is a solid system for warlocks.

I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, sadly. I will not doubt it though, but the Ethermancer is very much in the spirit of the Warlock with some tweaks. It's very mechanically Warlock in how it organizes blasts and shapes them. It does the whole "Essense" and "Shape" thing that Warlocks did for blasts, but applies it to everything it can cast.

Then it does so using a gunslinger and magus version...




On topic, we're also getting 6 more base classes which are Paizo's takes on the invocation, binding, and I believe their Occultist is basically a thematic take on the Artificer.

We're getting to the point that there's more PF material than there was 3.5 material in just classes alone.

At the rate we're going, all we're going to be missing are Aura using classes, and even then alot of that is folded over into other concepts.

[Greenish]

Spheres of Power wouldn't happen to be OGC, would it?

[Ssalarn]

On topic, we're also getting 6 more base classes which are Paizo's takes on the invocation, binding, and I believe their Occultist is basically a thematic take on the Artificer.

At the rate we're going, all we're going to be missing are Aura using classes, and even then alot of that is folded over into other concepts.

Occultist is actually their take on Incarnum (or at least that's what it started as). Hopefully it gets a lot of love before that book goes to print. It was great as a skill-monkey with some cool sensory abilities, but the offensive options available through its relics scale really poorly.

Battlelord from Amora Games' "Liber Influxus" is an aura based class that shares thematic territory with the Marshal but amped up and reinforced with a "Specialty" system inspired by military MOS'.

Spheres of Power wouldn't happen to be OGC, would it?

I believe they're already working on adding it to d20pfsrd (assuming it isn't already up by now).

I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, sadly. I will not doubt it though, but the Ethermancer is very much in the spirit of the Warlock with some tweaks. It's very mechanically Warlock in how it organizes blasts and shapes them. It does the whole "Essense" and "Shape" thing that Warlocks did for blasts, but applies it to everything it can cast.

My favorite thing about Spheres of Power over the Ethermancer is that the all-day blast and the various options for shaping and/or augmenting it are all contained in just one of the 20 spheres available; you can add any combination of the other 19 to really specialize your casting style, and that's before you even count in what base class chassis you're using, so it's hugely versatile in scope and concept while still being incredibly well-balanced.

[Almarck]

It isn't.

At least, if going by the menu.

I imagine that despite how popular Spheres is, it's probably a huge data dump and will take forever to get everything put together.

Not to mention that it doesn't have a really existing mass player base that DSP has that zealously wants to write about it.

[Greenish]

I believe they're already working on adding it to d20pfsrd (assuming it isn't already up by now).

If it is, I couldn't find it. Still, something to look forward to.

[Ssalarn]

If it is, I couldn't find it. Still, something to look forward to.

I know that one of the guys who regularly helps with that site told me they were working on it a couple weeks ago. My guess is that, as Almarck stated, it's just a huge project that's going to take them some time to get put together.

[danzibr]

That's a very interesting point with perception. Yes, it's pretty much the superskill of PF, but the alternative was the 2-3 seperate searching skills. Other games I know tend to have confusion pertaining to search skills. But then again, I only know like...4 Tabletop games.

By the way, what do you mean by "P.5 over 3.P"? I have never seen anyone use terminology like that before.

I believe P.5 is PF as a base with 3.5 stuff, and 3.P is 3.5 as a base with PF stuff.

EDIT: Oh snap, I didn't see there was another page where this was answered.

[Vhaidara]

Not to mention that it doesn't have a really existing mass player base that DSP has that zealously wants to write about it.

Well, remember, it only started coming out about 6-7 weeks ago. And it isn't fully out yet.

[Coidzor]

You didn't disappoint me - and I'm not sure what the centralization of the PFSRD has to do with what I said

Oh the joys of tone, sorry. Then I guess I just don't see what your point could have been, since you seemed to be going on about more than just that the names are slightly less opaque. Especially given a line like

"Zhentarim Fighter" would be both setting-specific and obtuse even if a DM had a legal tool to look it up with on the fly.

in reply to my pointing out that you'd already beaten us over the head with the convenience and ease of use of the PFSRD and PRD.

I don't see it as being discouraged. The only thing you lose for multiclassing in PF is favored class bonuses, which are nowhere near the XP penalty 3.5 saddled you with. And if you're willing to houserule away 3.5's XP penalty (as so many groups do) you can just as easily houserule in contining your FCB progression while multiclassing in PF.

It's a lot harder to justify giving everyone more spells known and all of the other nifty favored class bonuses that actually are worth something than it is to get rid of an experience point penalty that's just annoying for everyone to work with, both conceptually and in terms of how to practicably do so, so it is not easily equivalent, no.

[Ssalarn]

Well, remember, it only started coming out about 6-7 weeks ago. And it isn't fully out yet.

It did shoot to the top of the sales charts at Paizo last week as well, and I know that I recommend it to pretty much everyone, so I expect it to be a pretty big deal. Quality of art, mechanics, and organization are all really top notch, second only to top of the line goodies like Ultimate Psionics or Cerulean Seas, and Drop Dead is now into like, stretch goal #5 of their second successful Kickstarter, so they're a real up and coming powerhouse.

[Vhaidara]

wait, there's another kickstarter?

*goes to check kickstarter*

[Ssalarn]

wait, there's another kickstarter?

*goes to check kickstarter*

Skybourne. I think it actually closes today, and it's a super cool Campaign Setting that's got airships, planeswalking, and all kinds of cool and unique features. Part of the stretch goals are enhanced support for the Spheres of Power materials.

[Psyren]

Oh the joys of tone, sorry. Then I guess I just don't see what your point could have been, since you seemed to be going on about more than just that the names are slightly less opaque. Especially given a line like in reply to my pointing out that you'd already beaten us over the head with the convenience and ease of use of the PFSRD and PRD.

Despite my use of the term "legal tool," my primary point was indeed around the name opacity and setting ties of ZF specifically, and further noting that other ACFs are similar.

Also, I'm sorry you consider pointing out a legitimate selling-point/differentiating factor to be "beating you over the head" - but that's still what it is

It's a lot harder to justify giving everyone more spells known and all of the other nifty favored class bonuses that actually are worth something than it is to get rid of an experience point penalty that's just annoying for everyone to work with, both conceptually and in terms of how to practicably do so, so it is not easily equivalent, no.

Not leveling up gives you fewer spells known too, so I still say it's not that different. And even if you can't get them approved, it's not like a sorcerer without the human sorcerer FCB drops a tier either; it's still a sorcerer. (Not to mention - the ones for your race may not even be worth sticking around for in the first place.)

[Squirrel_Dude]

Not leveling up gives you fewer spells known too, so I still say it's not that different. And even if you can't get them approved, it's not like a sorcerer without the human sorcerer FCB drops a tier either; it's still a sorcerer. (Not to mention - the ones for your race may not even be worth sticking around for in the first place.)

This is very true. It's probably one of the reasons that I've started to see some posters on paizo's character advice forum encouraging multiclassing for some characters because the penalty for doing so is so negligible.

[Coidzor]

Despite my use of the term "legal tool," my primary point was indeed around the name opacity and setting ties of ZF specifically, and further noting that other ACFs are similar.

Also, I'm sorry you consider pointing out a legitimate selling-point/differentiating factor to be "beating you over the head" - but that's still what it is

Ok, then.

It's that you continue to go on about after everyone's acknowledged it.

Not leveling up gives you fewer spells known too, so I still say it's not that different. And even if you can't get them approved, it's not like a sorcerer without the human sorcerer FCB drops a tier either; it's still a sorcerer. (Not to mention - the ones for your race may not even be worth sticking around for in the first place.)

Why, yes, not gaining experience points and not leveling up at all gives one fewer spells known.

It's a clear point of superiority, nonetheless. Aside from with Paragon Surging Half-elves, anyway.

[Psyren]

Ok, then.

It's that you continue to go on about after everyone's acknowledged it.

Did I mention the PRD is free?
Did I mention the PRD is free?
Did I mention the PRD is free?

I feel like I haven't mentioned it in the last 5 minutes.

Why, yes, not gaining experience points and not leveling up at all gives one fewer spells known.

It's a clear point of superiority, nonetheless. Aside from with Paragon Surging Half-elves, anyway.

Paragon Surge got nerf-batted. Now it only gives you a single extra spell known each day and only from your list. Still useful in a pinch but not nearly as powerful as it once was.