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    Default In Defense of the Champion

    A lot of people 'round these parts complain that the Champion archetype is weak. The usual complaint is that it's boring and lacks options. I'm not so sure that either is true.

    The intent of this post is to defend the poor champion, who takes so much criticism. All features are available in the free PDF, so I think it's fine to paraphrase them here.

    The Champion
    Level 3: Improved Crit
    - you now crit on a 19 or 20, so crit chance doubles from 5% to 10%.

    This is actually a pretty nice feature. Crits let you add dice for the attack twice, but not static pluses, so a 5% increase in crit does not quite add 5% damage.

    However, one overlooked effect of the feature is that any natural crit automatically is a hit. If you ever find yourself fighting an unkillable god with AC higher than anyone can hit, the level 3 champion will still land one in every ten attacks.

    Additionally, one more overlooked feature for champions is that, if they take great weapon fighting style, which lets them reroll 1's and 2's, crits are more powerful and champions are even more likely to land them. Champions thus get extra benefit from this fighting style.

    Furthermore, though it's not in the PDF, champions also get quite a bit more benefit from the great weapon master feat due to this feature. Because it grants an extra attack on a crit, champions will get the extra attack twice as often. Champions can also use the +10 damage feature more safely, since a crit hits regardless of target AC.

    Damage for a single attack from a 16 strength player with a great sword (fighting style not calculated):
    Non-champion: 10.35
    Champion (3): 10.7
    Usage of great weapon fighting and great weapon master will further skew these numbers in the champion's favor.

    Conclusion: that's not bad, especially in a long fight or dungeon.

    Level 7: Remarkable athlete - now add half proficiency to any dexterity, constitution, or strength checks which don't use it, and can jump strength mod further.

    A check is one of the three types of d20 dice rolls, the others being attacks and saves. Thus, any d20 roll that is not a save or attack is a check. Well guess what, that includes all strength and dexterity skills, initiative, and any opposed check. Much like the bard jack of all trades, this applies in a wide variety of situations and shouldn't be overlooked.

    Conclusion: champions react faster and are naturally skillful.

    Level 10: extra fighting style - get another style.

    Depending on how you build your character, this will likely be either defense or protection. Either way, you or your allies are getting bonus defense. This is probably a champion's weakest feature, but raising AC by 1 point is better than it sounds.

    In plate, your AC is 18. A mob with a +10 attack bonus, such as a mammoth, has to roll 8 or higher to hit you. Raise that by one point, to 9 or higher, and it's chance of landing an attack goes from 65% to 60%, meaning a 7.6% decrease in the damage it's dealing. Usage of a shield or anything else that increases your AC, such as defensive duelist and dual wielder, will further skew these numbers in favor of Champions.

    Conclusion: that's not bad, especially in a long fight or dungeon.

    Level 15: Superior crit - now you crit on 18 and up, three times as often as everyone else.

    Damage for a single attack from a max strength player with a great sword (fighting style not calculated):
    Non-champion: 12.35
    Champion (15): 13.05
    Usage of great weapon fighting and great weapon master will further skew these numbers in the champion's favor.

    Conclusion: that's not bad, especially in a long fight or dungeon.

    Level 18: Survivor - you regain 5+con mod HP every round if your HP total is below half.

    Not going to lie: this feature is downright awesome. Healing in 5e is hard to come by, particularly in long fights when everyone has used their spell slots already. Even feats like healer can only be used on the same person once per short rest. So the ability to just heal up to 10 HP per round, approximately 4.5% of your max HP (226 with max con and taking 10 at 1 and 6 at every other level), is really nice.

    But wait, there's more. If you build a defensive champion, your odds of even taking damage are quite low. If you have a source of damage resistance via a buff, racial trait or magic item, this gets even better because you'll likely be healing yourself for close to the damage you would take from an attack (average damage / hit at CR 18+ ranges from 15 to 30 according to this).

    Conclusion: that's not bad, especially in a long fight or dungeon.

    Overall Conclusion
    The Champion has the unique quality that, out of all classes, it is the only one that can continue fighting at near peak efficiency no matter how long the day goes on. You could have the meanest, most sadistic DM who thinks short rests are unrealistic, and your champion will be just fine. When everyone else is out of spell slots, out of ki, out of maneuvers, out of HP, etc, you're doing just fine.

    In addition, a champion who takes a great weapon + great weapon mastery, shield + shield mastery + defensive duelist, or two weapon fighting + dual wielder + defensive duelist, gets more out of his feats and attacks than a normal character. This is because he crits more often and, due to his archetype features, gets more proportionate benefit from increases to AC (can take defense fighting style in addition to primary and heals off what damage he does take each round, meaning it takes much longer to actually kill the Champion than just about anyone else).

    The often overlooked level 7 feature is actually quite nice, since checks come up more often than other kinds of rolls. It's not as universal as the similar bard feature, but it's quite nice. A champion who focuses DEX and takes the alert feat can end up with an initiative bonus of +13. That's pretty crazy.

    And, of course, as a fighter the Champion gets access to full attack progression, action surge, and indomitable. Unlike other fighters, extra attacks benefit the Champion more. His odds of landing one crit in four attacks go from 18.5% to 47.8%) (1-(0.95)^4 vs. 1-(0.85)^4). That difference guarantees that the Champion is doing the most damage in the long run, unless rests are extremely plentiful.

    I really don't think the archetype is that bad. With all of its features together, it has a strong base to work from. Simple? Sure, but that also means less bookkeeping, and therefore more time to focus on RP and creativity. I think champions are fine.

    Edit: one thing I did not mention but which Seppo87 pointed out is that the improved crit range also makes advantage considerably stronger. For a regular fighter, there's a 9.75% chance to crit per attack with advantage. For a champion, the odds jump to 19% at 3 and 27.75% at 15. That's huge.

    Also worth noting: combining the above with a half-orc would be brutally effective.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2015-02-11 at 05:54 PM.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    You should at least mention that advantage makes the improved critical range MUCH stronger.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    You should at least mention that advantage makes the improved critical range MUCH stronger.
    Advantage+Crit+"Power Attack"+Halforc+Great weapon stuff

    It's about the only Champion I see working

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Crits aren't automatic hits - Natural 20s are automatic hits.

    The Champion doesn't particularly gain any additional benefit from anything but Advantage. With Advantage on every hit, an 18-20 crit range translates approximately, but not exactly, to 20% more damage per dice roll when compared to a non-champion. Consider the following, optimized Fighter:

    One attack: 2d6+15 damage = approximately 23 damage w/fighting style
    On crit: 4d6+15 damage = approximately 31 damage w/fighting style

    As Champion: 28% chance of +8 damage translates to ~+2.3 damage per hit.
    As anything else: 10% chance of +8 damage translates to +.8 damage per hit.

    Damage increase per hit: 1.5.

    Consider the Battlemaster, who has, at this point, 6d12 superiority dice which recharge on short rest, making it about 18-24 per day. We'll say 18. Relentless adds more, but that's arbitrary and we won't count it.

    18d12 =9*13 = 117 average damage. We're counting crits in this damage, and we've chosen to apply Advantage to favour the Champion, so 117*1.1 = 129. 129/1.5 = 86.

    The Champion must make 86 attacks to match just the raw damage output of the Battlemaster, not counting the utility brought by the latter. This translates approximately to 15-20 full-round attacks. Furthermore, the Battlemaster gets to choose when to use his dice, and can burst rapidly to take out a tough enemy, or prioritize certain targets.

    I don't know how many full-round attacks you're going to need to do in a day. I think that 20 of them translates roughly to 1600*.45=~700 applied damage at that point, which, as far as I can tell, is more HP than a single Fighter is ever going to need to take out in one day. It's almost enough to take out 3 of the generic CR 20 monster on its own, without teammates.

    Let's also remember that this is, essentially, the most favorable situation possible for the Champion. If they're using a different fighting style, not 2h, the gap begins to turn more and more in the Battlemaster's favour. If they don't have Advantage on every hit, the gap turns more and more in the Battlemaster's favour. I could do the calculations with a Half-Orc, but I'm not convinced it would end up being all that much of a difference - maybe 2 or 3 full-round attacks.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Todasmile View Post
    Crits aren't automatic hits - Natural 20s are automatic hits.
    No, I believe that the designers even stated that a critical hit is an auto hit. It is a hit no matter if it is a 18 or 19.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    While the Champion is not a bad subclass, I think what most here find off-putting is that most (all?) his abilities are passive. You just add so-and-so to your roll, heal this many hit points, etc. There's practically no choice involved. Except which extra style to take at level 10, but that's just once.

    I believe I speak on behalf of more than just myself when I say players like cool abilities they can activate.

    "I use Sundering Strike!"
    "I respond with Arcane Dismemberment!", and so on. The Champion offers none of that. Again, not bad mechanically, just unappealing for me.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    the rogue can get similar consistent DPR, generally speaking has very few abilities that run out of uses ever, and can do a heck of a lot more in the way of interesting stuff.

    the only way in which the rogue could be argued to have less staying power is in the infinite healing that leaves the champion at half HP max. fortunately for the rogue, there are a number of ways that the rogue is substantially better at minimizing or even completely preventing damage from occurring, starting with access to massively superior stealth capabilities.

    or, in other words... if you're looking for a class that doesn't run out of resources easily, you can be a champion and have almost no interesting options outside of combat, or be a rogue and have the most out of combat options of any non-full caster. generally speaking, the rogue enjoys most of the benefits, without the drawbacks.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    the rogue can get similar consistent DPR, generally speaking has very few abilities that run out of uses ever, and can do a heck of a lot more in the way of interesting stuff.

    the only way in which the rogue could be argued to have less staying power is in the infinite healing that leaves the champion at half HP max. fortunately for the rogue, there are a number of ways that the rogue is substantially better at minimizing or even completely preventing damage from occurring, starting with access to massively superior stealth capabilities.

    or, in other words... if you're looking for a class that doesn't run out of resources easily, you can be a champion and have almost no interesting options outside of combat, or be a rogue and have the most out of combat options of any non-full caster. generally speaking, the rogue enjoys most of the benefits, without the drawbacks.
    The rogue (thief) might be the best designed class. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a high fantasy version of it, but for a low to mid fantasy class the rogue is absolutely fantastic.

    I say drop the fighter all together and make subclasses to adjust the rogue into being more fighter ish. Increased HP, better weapons and armor... Hell call the class Adventurer and then build a rogue or fighter from that class.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    One big error in this thread that significantly undersells the Champion is the false assumption that increasing your crit range to 19+ is only a 5% increase in crits.
    It is significantly more than that.
    If your target has an AC high enough that you only hit on a 16+, a normal character has a 20% chance of any successful attack being a crit. A level 3 Champion in the same battle has a 40% chance of his successful attacks being a crit. Even at level 20, against the lowest AC target in the game you still need to roll above 1 to hit which means increasing crit range from 20 to 18+ is a 10.53% increase in crit rate.

    Also it needs mentioned that I don't think anyone criticizes the strength of the Champion (Well one person does but I think it is safe to ignore the extreme minority in this case), the complaint is about the lack of utility or options other than swinging their sword one more time. Those should be the issues you are addressing if you want to defend the Champion although I don't really see a need to defend that aspect either - if someone wants to play a class with many toys then they should choose a class with many toys.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    No, I believe that the designers even stated that a critical hit is an auto hit. It is a hit no matter if it is a 18 or 19.
    This is correct, a critical hit is an automatic hit. It even has the word in the name.

    Also, worth noting that the champion at 3rd level will deal more damage on average than a battlemaster using superiority dice after ~6 attacks per die applied. So if you make more than ~26 attacks before resting then you're automatically better off on average playing a Champion.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    I did a quick smoosh of the fighter and rogue and it looks fun.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...3#post18807633

    I would play this champion. The sneak attack champion would be strong but I don't think it is as strong as Extra Attack Champion though... Hmm need some maths.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post
    Also, worth noting that the champion at 3rd level will deal more damage on average than a battlemaster using superiority dice after ~6 attacks per die applied. So if you make more than ~26 attacks before resting then you're automatically better off on average playing a Champion.
    Well, no, because that still ignores all of the utility the Battlemaster grants, and because 26 attacks is way too many attacks. What is that, 2d6+3 damage per attack, for 11 damage? You have to deal 286 damage before the Champion is better than the Battlemaster? That's insane. That's practically half a day's worth of monsters, if you were fighting them on your own. With a party, you're never going to need to deal that much damage - you'll simply never reach the "break-even" point.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    When you think about it, Champions could very easily be considered the most powerful class in the game at high levels. They are essentially the Jack of All Trades class... Of Combat.
    Take a Warforged 19 Champion/1 Barbarian for instance: he could endure the average damage from over 28 Hobgoblins each round before they can push through his natural regeneration or a ridiculous 571 if they had disadvantage for whatever reason. He is essentially immune to the effects of a horde of enemies - even the level 20 Druid which is renown for its invincibility would fall to those numbers pretty damn fast.
    Against a single, powerful target like an Ancient Dragon, you need to roll an 11 or higher to hit at max level (With rare exception). That means that any other class would crit on 10% of their hits and the Champion would crit on a significant 30% of their hits. Overall that is more than an 11% increase in DPS or more if magic weapons are taken into account.
    Basically the Champion is the perfect warrior - he can handle hordes of minor enemies better than any other class while also bringing more damage to the table against a single, powerful enemy when high damage is needed most.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Hill Dwarf fighter with 20 Con and Toughness feat will have between 189 and 360 HP; averaging 275.

    That is 138 regenerating Hp buffer between you and death.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    One big error in this thread that significantly undersells the Champion is the false assumption that increasing your crit range to 19+ is only a 5% increase in crits.
    It is significantly more than that.
    If your target has an AC high enough that you only hit on a 16+, a normal character has a 20% chance of any successful attack being a crit. A level 3 Champion in the same battle has a 40% chance of his successful attacks being a crit. Even at level 20, against the lowest AC target in the game you still need to roll above 1 to hit which means increasing crit range from 20 to 18+ is a 10.53% increase in crit rate.
    Just a difference of language I think. If you're counting crits as a proportion of total attacks that land, your crit chance depends largely on AC and your attack bonus. If measured that way, archery fighters will rather perplexingly have the lowest crit rate, since they get a static +2 to their attack rolls and hit that much more often.

    As far as proportion of attack rolls that crit, though, champions will crit on 5 to 10% more of them. As discussed, a crit is not the same as double damage, but the increased crit chance does work extremely well with advantage and certain class and race features.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    While the Champion is not a bad subclass, I think what most here find off-putting is that most (all?) his abilities are passive. You just add so-and-so to your roll, heal this many hit points, etc. There's practically no choice involved. Except which extra style to take at level 10, but that's just once.

    I believe I speak on behalf of more than just myself when I say players like cool abilities they can activate.

    "I use Sundering Strike!"
    "I respond with Arcane Dismemberment!", and so on. The Champion offers none of that. Again, not bad mechanically, just unappealing for me.
    This one is going to take a bit longer to address, and I'm going to have to talk a little bit about EverQuest. Again, I'm a number-crunchy kind of guy. I can appreciate versatility of options as much as the next guy. But one thing classic EverQuest did well, which I haven't seen in any other game to the same degree, is having very deep mechanics.

    What do I mean by that? Well, take aggro management in EQ. It was controlled in two ways: damage done and special effects. Your aggro towards a mob was your damage done, but you could increase it by performing special effects, particularly anything that stunned the mob or lowered it's resistances. So warriors in EQ, once they learned the mechanics, figured out to dual wield weapons that dealt decent damage and had a chance to stun the target or lower its resistances. This was the only way to tank. And it was just one way in which EverQuest had very deep mechanics, particularly when it came to playing a warrior. In fact, learning these hidden mechanics and figuring out the best spread for statistics and gear were the only reason to play a warrior. Funnily enough, it ended up being a much more popular class than the supposedly superior paladins and rangers, both of whom got spells and several skills that warriors couldn't use. Too bad neither of those had the sheer defensive capabilities or number-crunchy math-driven gameplay of the warrior.

    I use this example from EQ as a point to talk about the champion. On the surface, the champion doesn't seem like it does much. However, there is a lot of depth to the increase crit chance, as I've shown. With the right setup, such as playing a half orc with a greataxe and getting the cleric to cast guiding bolt, a champion can push their damage per round way through the roof. Champions get an extra fighting style, meaning that they can push their numbers just a bit higher than other fighters (sans multiclassing which makes the multiclasser give up something else in exchange).

    And remarkable athlete offers a lot of opportunity for advantages in unique situations. Initiative is just one thing it helps. It also works with all gaming sets (assuming dex checks), bursting chains and other objects (strength check), or even checks you wouldn't normally think of, like winning a drinking contest (opposed con check). This ability also means that you can skip a lot of skills (like acrobatics) and diversify your character, knowing full well that you're going to be adding half proficiency on those skills anyway.

    And though it doesn't seem like it, being able to long-jump 5 feet farther could actually be quite beneficial if you're trying to avoid some shoddy terrain or clear the gap over some lava. Is it as good as levitate? No, but it doesn't need to be cast or maintained either.

    Champion also makes a fantastic dip for several classes. Rogues in particular could find huge benefit from taking 6 levels for improved crit, extra attack, action surge, a fighting style, and two feats. Considering how many ways rogues have to attack with advantage, pushing their crit chance to 19% per attack when that happens can be a great way to majorly boost their DPR, since you roll all of those die twice.

    It's this kind of depth that I feel is a major draw for the class. They may not have the most options, but the options they do have are very good and can be gamed quite a bit. The champion turns up his nose at casters, because he knows that his seemingly few options have a much wider variety of uses than the caster will ever realize:
    • He'll be keeping his eye out for flaming weapons and similar, knowing that he can reroll all die associated with an attack on a crit.
    • He'll be watching for ways to get advantage that much harder, knowing it makes his crit chance shoot through the roof.
    • He'll eye every room looking for ways to use his strength or dexterity to manipulate it, knowing that he's got half proficiency no matter how outlandish the check may seem.
    • He'll strongly consider buying a horse, or an even larger mount, knowing that he can take mounted combatant and use a lance to totally decimate anyone smaller than his mount through advantage-criticals with his 1d12 one-handed lance.
    • He might consider taking some superiority die and maneuvers via feat, since he gets extra feats, just to get in on the BM schtick and reroll that crap on a critical hit too.

    Like I said, there's a lot of fun to be had with the champion's mechanics. You just have to read a bit deeper into the archetype than most do in order to truly understand how effective it can be.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2015-02-11 at 10:53 PM.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    When you think about it, Champions could very easily be considered the most powerful class in the game at high levels. They are essentially the Jack of All Trades class... Of Combat.
    Take a Warforged 19 Champion/1 Barbarian for instance: he could endure the average damage from over 28 Hobgoblins each round before they can push through his natural regeneration or a ridiculous 571 if they had disadvantage for whatever reason. He is essentially immune to the effects of a horde of enemies - even the level 20 Druid which is renown for its invincibility would fall to those numbers pretty damn fast.
    Against a single, powerful target like an Ancient Dragon, you need to roll an 11 or higher to hit at max level (With rare exception). That means that any other class would crit on 10% of their hits and the Champion would crit on a significant 30% of their hits. Overall that is more than an 11% increase in DPS or more if magic weapons are taken into account.
    Basically the Champion is the perfect warrior - he can handle hordes of minor enemies better than any other class while also bringing more damage to the table against a single, powerful enemy when high damage is needed most.
    But they aren't in any way a jack of all trades class, even for combat. ALL they can do is take and deal single target damage, they have absolutely no versatility and no abilities to add tactical depth. You want an actual combat jack of all trades, grab yourself a druid or something and watch them damage, heal, deal aoe, take damage, control. A lot of other martials bring a lot of different stuff - monk has mobility and control, paladin brings party protection and burst and they're doing this on top of being able to take and deal damage, while the champion is stuck bringing nothing new to the party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    Champion, depth, rest snipped
    Perhaps we're using different definitions here. My definition of depth in this case is choices and how meaningful they are - attacking as a warlock isn't very deep because you're just spamming eldritch blast regardless of target, while attacking as an elemental monk has more depth because you have to make meaningful choices whenever you do anything - do I blow ki flurrying now? The target's dangerous, maybe I should try stunning but I'm already low on ki, would it be worth throwing a fireball? It's better damage, but it won't immediately kill anyone it hits and I could probably take down that ogre if I concentrated on him...

    The champion has none of that. Increased critical chance just means your attacks are doing slightly more damage, and that's not going to alter your choices at all, particularly since it's random so you can't rely on it. You're still just going to be saying 'I attack' over and over, there is no depth to that, no situations that having that ability will change how you act in.
    Last edited by Logical DM; 2015-02-11 at 11:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logical DM View Post
    But they aren't in any way a jack of all trades class, even for combat. ALL they can do is take and deal single target damage, they have absolutely no versatility and no abilities to add tactical depth. You want an actual combat jack of all trades, grab yourself a druid or something and watch them damage, heal, deal aoe, take damage, control. A lot of other martials bring a lot of different stuff - monk has mobility and control, paladin brings party protection and burst and they're doing this on top of being able to take and deal damage, while the champion is stuck bringing nothing new to the party.
    But the Champion is an expert against any encounter whether it is composed of lots of weaker enemies or few strong enemies. Other classes have their niches (Druids excel against few strong enemies, arcane casters excel against hordes of weaker enemies for example), but in a situation that isn't their niche they are extremely mediocre and in many cases virtually unable to function. the Champion excels in battles of all varieties and in most cases is better suited to those encounters than the classes that would ordinarily consider that encounter to fit right within their niche.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    But the Champion is an expert against any encounter whether it is composed of lots of weaker enemies or few strong enemies. Other classes have their niches (Druids excel against few strong enemies, arcane casters excel against hordes of weaker enemies for example), but in a situation that isn't their niche they are extremely mediocre and in many cases virtually unable to function. the Champion excels in battles of all varieties and in most cases is better suited to those encounters than the classes that would ordinarily consider that encounter to fit right within their niche.
    But that's not true. They have no particular advantage against lots of weaker enemies, unlike those who can AOE, and all they can do to a few strong enemies is autoattack repeatedly. What if the enemy flees underground? What if disabling a foe or foes is necessary, for instance if they're full hp and about to kill a friend? What if they fly away? What if someone is about to die and needs to be healed? What if the battlefield needs to be altered? What if there are a large number of weaker foes?

    Most classes don't have answers to all these things (that's why it's a team game), but the champion has answers to none of these situations. They are the least jack of all trades in combat of any subclass in the game, and obviously out of combat they don't have the utility the well built classes do.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Logical DM View Post
    But that's not true. They have no particular advantage against lots of weaker enemies, unlike those who can AOE, and all they can do to a few strong enemies is autoattack repeatedly.
    As shown above using Hobgoblins as an example, it takes 29 or more (572 with disadvantage on attacks) just to be able to out-damage the Champion's regen. He could literally relax and take a picnic while those Hobgolins beat on him and never be in danger. Being completely immune to the attacks of your enemy is the biggest advantage one could have, far bigger than being able to throw out some AOEs. It is basically the difference between being undefeatable and hard to defeat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logical DM View Post
    What if the enemy flees underground?
    Grats on the victory?
    Quote Originally Posted by Logical DM View Post
    What if disabling a foe or foes is necessary, for instance if they're full hp and about to kill a friend?
    Putting your enemy in a coma or coffin disables them more reliably than any spell ever could (Unless that spell put them in a coma or coffin too).
    Quote Originally Posted by Logical DM View Post
    What if they fly away?
    Grats on the victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logical DM View Post
    What if someone is about to die and needs to be healed?
    You tell that squishy to piss off and let the real Fighters do the Fighting (Preferably before he got himself in that degree of danger)
    Quote Originally Posted by Logical DM View Post
    What if the battlefield needs to be altered?
    You put your enemy in a coma or coffin. Or if there is some deus-ex involved that makes that impossible, you drag him to a location where he can be harmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logical DM View Post
    What if there are a large number of weaker foes?
    Either you fight them as normal or you pull out a novel and catch up on the exploits of your favourite fictional character until they tire themselves out flailing aimlessly and take a nap. then you kill them in their sleep.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    What's funny about a lot of the discussion in this thread is that one of the champion's foremost advantages is barely even mentioned. Even if other classes can do cool things in the short term, even if others have some versatile tricks, the champion can say one thing that nobody else can: no matter how many encounters I have to fight in a row, no matter how many fireballs hit me or save-or-sucks I work through, no matter how many times the DM actively tries to kill me, I'm still going to be fighting at full strength and half-health by the end of it. Champions are the Gaston of combat; nobody does it like the champion.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    As shown above using Hobgoblins as an example, it takes 29 or more (572 with disadvantage on attacks) just to be able to out-damage the Champion's regen. He could literally relax and take a picnic while those Hobgolins beat on him and never be in danger. Being completely immune to the attacks of your enemy is the biggest advantage one could have, far bigger than being able to throw out some AOEs. It is basically the difference between being undefeatable and hard to defeat.
    Then throw in Heavy Armor Master and take down an army?

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    If the varient Cleaving rule from the dmg is in the game as well. It's easy to cut down hordes.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Symphony View Post
    Then throw in Heavy Armor Master and take down an army?
    Those numbers already included Heavy Armor Master. He could use Rage or something to get Resistance which would increase his survivability even more but that isn't a persistent buff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    Those numbers already included Heavy Armor Master. He could use Rage or something to get Resistance which would increase his survivability even more but that isn't a persistent buff.
    Ah. Yeah, rage only lasts for up to a minute, and 10 rounds is not really longs enough for that kind of thing.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    The Champion's biggest problem--not only, but biggest--is not necessarily within the class itself, but rather in caster balance at the highest levels, and everyone looks at lvl 20 here. A Champion has a hard time doing anything to an elemental-form moon druid, for instance, even if you follow the Wild Shape interpretation that goes "you must revert to your base form to take a new form (or replenish your HP in the same form) with Wild Shape." There's also issues with some lower-level spells being broken as heck. These are way fewer and farther between than in 3.5, but they're still there, and unlike in 2e a weapon attack can't disrupt the casting of any spell by landing a hit (just landing a hit at all, regardless of damage--in 2nd edition, in theory, a particularly lucky squirrel could crit on Mordenkainen himself and disrupt his spellcasting). Good crits and regen are nice, but a high-level caster can turn into an Ancient Gold Dragon once a day, and has ways to make that permanent.


    That all said, I do like the class--hits like a freight train, straightforward, and high survivability.
    Last edited by JAL_1138; 2015-02-12 at 01:14 AM.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by JAL_1138 View Post
    , but a high-level caster can turn into an Ancient Gold Dragon once a day, and has ways to make that permanent.
    No he can't.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by JAL_1138 View Post
    The Champion's biggest problem--not only, but biggest--is not necessarily within the class itself, but rather in caster balance at the highest levels, and everyone looks at lvl 20 here. A Champion has a hard time doing anything to an elemental-form moon druid, for instance, even if you follow the Wild Shape interpretation that goes "you must revert to your base form to take a new form (or replenish your HP in the same form) with Wild Shape." There's also issues with some lower-level spells being broken as heck. These are way fewer and farther between than in 3.5, but they're still there, and unlike in 2e a weapon attack can't disrupt the casting of any spell by landing a hit (just landing a hit at all, regardless of damage--in 2nd edition, in theory, a particularly lucky squirrel could crit on Mordenkainen himself and disrupt his spellcasting). Good crits and regen are nice, but a high-level caster can turn into an Ancient Gold Dragon once a day, and has ways to make that permanent.
    That Druid couldn't exactly do much of anything to the Champion either though as long as he chose his feats wisely.
    Here is another interesting todbit: A level 18+ Champion can take on 4 Rakshasa simultaneously without them being able to breach his regeneration reliably. That is a 60k xp battle for a solo Champion which is 6.32 times the threshold for a deadly encounter at level 18. Yet he can endure that for any given length of time without ever being in any danger.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    No he can't.
    Wizard with True Polymorph. AFB so I dunno if you can target Self--if not, Wish and/or Simulacrum shenanigans can manage it.

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    Imp

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Okay. Let's take a level 3 Human Variant Fighter with 16 strength and Mounted Combatant, fighting AC 16 medium sized enemies with a 1H lance and dueling style. That's probably the most straightforward way to have a character with consistent advantage at low levels, which I believe gets played more often and hence will serve as my baseline comparison.

    Both a BM and a Champion have a +5 to hit and hence need a natural 11. With advantage both of them have a 75% chance to roll 11 or higher. Both normally do 1d12+5 damage. The BM has a 5% chance to crit, and the Champion has a 10% chance to crit.

    Without expending any resources or making any reaction or bonus action attacks, the Champion's DPR is 9.86 compared to the BM's DPR of 9.25875. Over four rounds (by which time IME most normal combats are decided, if not over) the difference is 2.405 damage. Without advantage, the DPR difference over four rounds would be 1.3 damage, meaning the marginal incentive to gain advantage is 1.105 expected damage over four rounds.

    Superiority dice are guaranteed to add at least 4.5 damage in the combat, plus a rider. So, expending one superiority die per four rounds will overcome this expected damage increase, even with advantage. And getting the crit increase has such a small effect in expectation that the fighter will be looking just as hard for advantage as he was before (that is, intently, just like a BM would). The regeneration ability may change the outlook of the fighter, if the party doesn't have other reliable healing options, at that very late level. But honestly by that time the fighter of any subclass is screwed anyway, so how about the champion actually being good when you get it?

    Also, the half-proficiency starts off as +1. Plus. One. On (initiative and) skills the fighter didn't deem important enough to get proficiency in already. That is not going to change my consideration of whether to perform some dex- or str-related thing. It's not even adding interesting fluffy but situational abilities like Know Your Enemy.

    So yeah, all the Fighter subclasses are bad, and Champion is the worst. IMO they should take out one of the bonus ASIs and just bump each subclass, or better yet make those bumps feats.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Okay. Let's take a level 3 Human Variant Fighter with 16 strength and Mounted Combatant, fighting AC 16 medium sized enemies with a 1H lance and dueling style. That's probably the most straightforward way to have a character with consistent advantage at low levels, which I believe gets played more often and hence will serve as my baseline comparison.

    Both a BM and a Champion have a +5 to hit and hence need a natural 11. With advantage both of them have a 75% chance to roll 11 or higher. Both normally do 1d12+5 damage. The BM has a 5% chance to crit, and the Champion has a 10% chance to crit.

    Without expending any resources or making any reaction or bonus action attacks, the Champion's DPR is 9.86 compared to the BM's DPR of 9.25875. Over four rounds (by which time IME most normal combats are decided, if not over) the difference is 2.405 damage. Without advantage, the DPR difference over four rounds would be 1.3 damage, meaning the marginal incentive to gain advantage is 1.105 expected damage over four rounds.

    Superiority dice are guaranteed to add at least 4.5 damage in the combat, plus a rider. So, expending one superiority die per four rounds will overcome this expected damage increase, even with advantage. And getting the crit increase has such a small effect in expectation that the fighter will be looking just as hard for advantage as he was before (that is, intently, just like a BM would). The regeneration ability may change the outlook of the fighter, if the party doesn't have other reliable healing options, at that very late level. But honestly by that time the fighter of any subclass is screwed anyway, so how about the champion actually being good when you get it?

    Also, the half-proficiency starts off as +1. Plus. One. On (initiative and) skills the fighter didn't deem important enough to get proficiency in already. That is not going to change my consideration of whether to perform some dex- or str-related thing. It's not even adding interesting fluffy but situational abilities like Know Your Enemy.

    So yeah, all the Fighter subclasses are bad, and Champion is the worst. IMO they should take out one of the bonus ASIs and just bump each subclass, or better yet make those bumps feats.
    And at level 20 with those same stats, feats and enemy, the Champion's DPR is 49.05 compared to the BM's DPR of 44.395. Over four rounds (by which time IME most normal combats are decided, if not over) the difference is 18.62 damage. The Battlemaster has to expend 3 Superiority dice over that period of time to keep up with the damage.

    You cherry-picked the time in the character's progression where the Battlemaster is at his most powerful and decided to compare them. As you can see above, it doesn't stay that way - the Battlemaster progressively loses his relative strength as they level.

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