Page 2 of 17 FirstFirst 123456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 489
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Apr 2012

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by JAL_1138 View Post
    Wizard with True Polymorph. AFB so I dunno if you can target Self--if not, Wish and/or Simulacrum shenanigans can manage it.
    No he can't. And Wish or Simulacrum can't manage it ether. Simply because True Polymorph does not allow you to transform yourself or others into forms of a higher level then you.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    And at level 20 with those same stats, feats and enemy, the Champion's DPR is 49.05 compared to the BM's DPR of 44.395. Over four rounds (by which time IME most normal combats are decided, if not over) the difference is 18.62 damage. The Battlemaster has to expend 3 Superiority dice over that period of time to keep up with the damage.
    Which is totally fine, because the BM has 6 dice and they recharge on a short rest. How many combats does the BM have to stretch those dice over? 2? No problem. 3? Problem, sure, but the damage difference ends up being 12 per short rest, which is almost nothing.

    And, let's be honest here, what's worth more - the opportunity to Nova, with the security of getting to still use your dice later 1 time per fight even if you burn them all, and the added benefit of riders, and -12 damage per short rest, which becomes 0 if even one of those dice are burned using a Riposte; OR a pretty inconsistent damage boost which can and will overkill enemies, which cannot be "aimed", and which has no actual utility?

    The Champion's best feature is his heal, which is only even online for the last three levels of the game. Comparing the Champ to the BM, the Champ is rear-loaded, optionless, and almost entirely passive, while the BM is front-loaded, has some options, gets to choose when to use each of his distinct abilities, and puts out similar, if not better, damage!
    Last edited by Todasmile; 2015-02-12 at 02:00 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Banned
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2015

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Envyus View Post
    No he can't. And Wish or Simulacrum can't manage it ether. Simply because True Polymorph does not allow you to transform yourself or others into forms of a higher level then you.
    Yeah, the best you can achieve is merely permanently turning yourself into an ancient brass dragon.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    And at level 20 with those same stats, feats and enemy, the Champion's DPR is 49.05 compared to the BM's DPR of 44.395. Over four rounds (by which time IME most normal combats are decided, if not over) the difference is 18.62 damage. The Battlemaster has to expend 3 Superiority dice over that period of time to keep up with the damage.

    You cherry-picked the time in the character's progression where the Battlemaster is at his most powerful and decided to compare them. As you can see above, it doesn't stay that way - the Battlemaster progressively loses his relative strength as they level.
    I didn't cherrypick. I used the lowest possible level for comparison, which IMO is the more important comparison to all this level 20 BS where games rarely reach and the fighter has already ceased to be relevant with any subclass.

    Not only that but I gave the fighter MC and not the best overall DPR feat, which is Polearm Master, specifically to show that constant advantage was nice but not a giant thing for Champion. And I didn't assume that you could use Riposte to get more attacks, or other maneuvers to actually get advantage more often, or even add the potential extra sup dice damage from crits. I did the bare bones, no rider effect, base line damage comparison between the two at the most relevant level possible.

    So yes, Champion scales better than the worst scaling subclass of the entire game, and maybe by the time the Champion can regenerate it wins out, if you can consistently get advantage. But it's still terrible, and especially so at the levels where more gaming occurs and the fighter has a better chance at contributing.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Giant2005's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Todasmile View Post
    Which is totally fine, because the BM has 6 dice and they recharge on a short rest. How many combats does the BM have to stretch those dice over? 2? No problem. 3? Problem, sure, but the damage difference ends up being 12 per short rest, which is almost nothing.

    And, let's be honest here, what's worth more - the opportunity to Nova, with the security of getting to still use your dice later 1 time per fight even if you burn them all, and the added benefit of riders, and -12 damage per short rest, which becomes 0 if even one of those dice are burned using a Riposte; OR a pretty inconsistent damage boost which can and will overkill enemies, which cannot be "aimed", and which has no actual utility?

    The Champion's best feature is his heal, which is only even online for the last three levels of the game. Comparing the Champ to the BM, the Champ is rear-loaded, optionless, and almost entirely passive, while the BM is front-loaded, has some options, gets to choose when to use each of his distinct abilities, and puts out similar, if not better, damage!
    It certainly won't be true for every game but in my experience, most parties tend to fight more than three battles before taking a short rest. I tend to believe it is more like 4 to 5 which would be a 24-36 point damage advantage to the Champion assuming the Battlemaster used all of his maneuvers which imo is a false assumption and one that is constantly made while theorycrafting.
    The reality is that it is unlikely for any intelligently played Battlemaster to use all or even most of their Superiority Dice before taking a rest. They (Like spellcasters) always keep something in reserve for the sake of emergency. However much they keep stockpiled would depend on how cautious the individual player is but I am relatively certain that the players that blow their entire load prematurely would be in the extreme minority.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Easy_Lee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Todasmile View Post
    Which is totally fine, because the BM has 6 dice and they recharge on a short rest. How many combats does the BM have to stretch those dice over? 2? No problem. 3? Problem, sure, but the damage difference ends up being 12 per short rest, which is almost nothing.

    And, let's be honest here, what's worth more - the opportunity to Nova, with the security of getting to still use your dice later 1 time per fight even if you burn them all, and the added benefit of riders, and -12 damage per short rest, which becomes 0 if even one of those dice are burned using a Riposte; OR a pretty inconsistent damage boost which can and will overkill enemies, which cannot be "aimed", and which has no actual utility?

    The Champion's best feature is his heal, which is only even online for the last three levels of the game. Comparing the Champ to the BM, the Champ is rear-loaded, optionless, and almost entirely passive, while the BM is front-loaded, has some options, gets to choose when to use each of his distinct abilities, and puts out similar, if not better, damage!
    You guys are using a non-half-orc dueling champion, one of the weaker variants, and are also discounting his bonus fighting style which yields additional options. A champion who spends most of his time mounted will likely abuse a trick to make his mount nearly untouchable: combine the defense fighting style from his bonus fighting style with mounted combatant. He can use his reaction to make attacks against the mount have disadvantage, and then force them to target himself instead without using his action if he wants to. He can do all that and still have archery, dueling, or whatever other style he wants.

    But I digress. The dueling variant of fighter is one of the weaker ones. If you want the DPR difference to be more pronounced, try a half-orc, great weapon fighting, using the GWF feature with the knowledge that every crit's an auto-hit, getting a full bonus attack if he does crit that round, and using a great axe with savage attacker to roll 3d12 instead of 2d12 for every crit. It's pretty easy to see how quickly this can get out of hand, and it's just one variant of champion.

    The half-orc race is a pretty big deal for champions, but the general trend is true regardless of race choice. I did say before that champions really start to shine on the longest, hardest days, when everyone else has used their special powers already. Before that happens, the champion is merely able to "compete", rather than "shine." When those tough sessions do come, as they do, everyone else will be very happy to have the champion around.

    And no fighter is "optionless." BM's have extra maneuvers, all of which can be picked up by literally anyone with a feat. They'll be using those maneuvers six times max per short rest. And all that most of those maneuvers do is allow a free trip, or a free disarm, or another reaction attack. In other words, most are slightly improved versions of the same options that all fighters get.

    The best maneuver of the bunch is precision attack, turning misses into hits. That's a big deal, but the champion already crits (and thus is guaranteed to land the hit) much more often. Even when attacking with disadvantage, the champion still crits 2.25% of the time, which is ten times more than anyone else with disadvantage (0.25%).

    The fighter with the most breadth of options is the EK. But there are better Gish options out there if you ask me, and having a balanced party removes the need to cast your own spells. Most of the spells EKs get are crappy anyway; you're better off just doing your full attack than throwing a fireball most of the time. If you want a real Gish, play a valor bard or blade-pact warlock, and enjoy full casting plus better cantrips.

    And I still think there's a beauty in the simple depth of the Champion archetype. Sure, you can come up with all kinds of situations where another character might be better. But it's very hard to come up with any combat situation where the champion won't do fine. Between multiple fighting styles, the fighter's own action surge and indomitable, and the fact that champions add half proficiency to initiative and the same or more to any other combat check one can think of, the champion is very hard to shut down. It's just a beautifully simple, consistently effective, constantly underestimated character.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2015-02-12 at 02:26 AM.
    Breaking BM: Revised - an updated look at the beast-mounted halfling ranger based on the Revised Ranger: Beast Conclave.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Logical DM View Post
    Yeah, the best you can achieve is merely permanently turning yourself into an ancient brass dragon.
    Anyhow, level limits vs CR-rules-lawyering aside, "can turn into some variety of extremely powerful dragon daily and can make it permanent if they want" is pretty darn potent. Or Polymorph (including conjure woodland beings (pixies)) + PWK being potentially an instakill combo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    That Druid couldn't exactly do much of anything to the Champion either though as long as he chose his feats wisely.
    Here is another interesting tidbit: A level 18+ Champion can take on 4 Rakshasa simultaneously without them being able to breach his regeneration reliably. That is a 60k xp battle for a solo Champion which is 6.32 times the threshold for a deadly encounter at level 18. Yet he can endure that for any given length of time without ever being in any danger.
    I don't think it's a bad class--quite the opposite. I've been resolutely sticking to "utility" classes since 2e but I wouldn't balk at playing it. I'd still rather play a utility-focused class, but I wouldn't refuse. I'll admit I came across as overly negative because I didn't see any need to repeat the good parts that have already been detailed by you and others. Again--not an issue with the Champion as much as with casters getting a bit too much in the way of utility and other goodies and some spells being broken. Plus, although it's extremely unlikely that a fighter won't get a magic weapon by mid-levels, there's a lot of enemies they can't damage at all even at level 20 without either an item or caster support.

    TL;DR: The Champion is fine; it's not that they suck, it's that some spells need nerfed.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Logical DM View Post
    But they aren't in any way a jack of all trades class, even for combat. ALL they can do is take and deal single target damage, they have absolutely no versatility and no abilities to add tactical depth. You want an actual combat jack of all trades, grab yourself a druid or something and watch them damage, heal, deal aoe, take damage, control. A lot of other martials bring a lot of different stuff - monk has mobility and control, paladin brings party protection and burst and they're doing this on top of being able to take and deal damage, while the champion is stuck bringing nothing new to the party.
    Remarkable athelete, appropriate background, and spending feats on non-combat feats gives them a lot more than just damage. Replacing basic attacks with shove (push or knock down) or grappling provides tactical options at the expense of damage (unlike battlemasters who increase damage when using superiority dice) and there are feats that give tactical options. Multiple attacks allows for multiple attack substitutions like knock down and grapple so the target has 0 movement to stand up and remains prone until having broken the grapple.

    There's a difference between less options and no options and in this case we aren't looking at no options. The character options aren't directly baked into the subclass but the options exist.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Balor777's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Failed teleport,not sure

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    I agree with Easylee at most points.
    Champion is simple but nice.
    I dissagre that you get more than a 5% bonus chance to crit with each of his critical features.
    D20 has 20 sizes.Each side has 5% chances to be the result of a roll.
    You can have out
    one(normal characters) 1/20
    two(Champion3 or Barbar2 w rec att) 2/20
    three (Champion15) 3/20
    four (Champ3/Barbar2 multiclass) 4/20
    or highly unlikely six(Champ18/Barbar2 multiclass) 6/20
    sides of the d20 that let you score a crit.
    You dont have to care how many of your hits are critical.The only time this thinking is valuable is Versus very high AC oppontns or while attacking with -5+10
    and you really need a 18/19/20 to hit.At this very rare occasion you will deal a lot more damage from the guys without improved critical.
    But the chances are you will need an opponent with AC higher than your attackbonus+10 by +8 or +10 attack bonus vs 28 AC or +5 attack bonus VS 23AC to make this happen.
    In 99% of the encounters you should care about how many of the sides(and if you roll 2 times from advantage)
    on the d20 let you crit.

    The champion becomes a MONSTER if you dip 2 levels in barbarian for the recless attack double roll so double chances to crit, plus +~23% accurasy(recless attack) and you choose Half orc as race.
    Start as a Fighter.
    Get to level 6.(2nd attack + ASI)
    Dip 2 levels in barbarrian(for Recless attack and some rage)
    Bam you have the DPR guy.
    If you choose the above combination you should/could play with TWF style +Feat.
    AT level 8 you will have a good 60% to crit for extra 2d8 damage(average9)
    That average 9x60% = 5,5 damage extra per round or average +1,8 damage per hit.
    At fighter 11 you get 7,2 damage per round as bonus.
    NOT bad if you realise the average GWF greatsword guy does including misses around 25 damage per round at 11 level.
    So that 7,2 is around 25%damage extra, without taking into account the extra 23% chances to hit from recless attack.

    Imo it fits the RP too to have a 2lvl dip in Barbar as the Champion tends more into the "angry-i have guts fighting" style.Far more that the "specialist" battle master.

    Conclusion is that champ with just 2 lvl into the barbar deals way more damage with recless attack than the BM but suffers more damage too.
    Unless you use rage.

    ALSO dont forget the synergy of duelist style + protection style fighter can have without multiclass or the ability to have the awesome archery style until the enemy reaches you and then switch to your main style.
    Last edited by Balor777; 2015-02-12 at 07:47 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Psikerlord's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    I think the Champion is perfectly fine. I find the battlemaster runs out of dice constantly, esp in dungeons where short rests are not necessarily easy.

    If you want more choices to go with your champion - take feats that create options: ritual caster, arcane initiate, dragonmarks (UA article), martial adept, shield master, sentinel, etc. In addition, try to obtain magic items that are interesting and require resource management. With the optional DMG rule the champion - like anyone in melee - can mark, disarm, push around, overrun, as well as help, grapple, shove from PHB.

    There's plenty of stuff to do. Champion's cool/good.
    Last edited by Psikerlord; 2015-02-12 at 08:51 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Psikerlord's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    You guys are using a non-half-orc dueling champion, one of the weaker variants, and are also discounting his bonus fighting style which yields additional options. A champion who spends most of his time mounted will likely abuse a trick to make his mount nearly untouchable: combine the defense fighting style from his bonus fighting style with mounted combatant. He can use his reaction to make attacks against the mount have disadvantage, and then force them to target himself instead without using his action if he wants to. He can do all that and still have archery, dueling, or whatever other style he wants.

    But I digress. The dueling variant of fighter is one of the weaker ones. If you want the DPR difference to be more pronounced, try a half-orc, great weapon fighting, using the GWF feature with the knowledge that every crit's an auto-hit, getting a full bonus attack if he does crit that round, and using a great axe with savage attacker to roll 3d12 instead of 2d12 for every crit. It's pretty easy to see how quickly this can get out of hand, and it's just one variant of champion.

    The half-orc race is a pretty big deal for champions, but the general trend is true regardless of race choice. I did say before that champions really start to shine on the longest, hardest days, when everyone else has used their special powers already. Before that happens, the champion is merely able to "compete", rather than "shine." When those tough sessions do come, as they do, everyone else will be very happy to have the champion around.

    And no fighter is "optionless." BM's have extra maneuvers, all of which can be picked up by literally anyone with a feat. They'll be using those maneuvers six times max per short rest. And all that most of those maneuvers do is allow a free trip, or a free disarm, or another reaction attack. In other words, most are slightly improved versions of the same options that all fighters get.

    The best maneuver of the bunch is precision attack, turning misses into hits. That's a big deal, but the champion already crits (and thus is guaranteed to land the hit) much more often. Even when attacking with disadvantage, the champion still crits 2.25% of the time, which is ten times more than anyone else with disadvantage (0.25%).

    The fighter with the most breadth of options is the EK. But there are better Gish options out there if you ask me, and having a balanced party removes the need to cast your own spells. Most of the spells EKs get are crappy anyway; you're better off just doing your full attack than throwing a fireball most of the time. If you want a real Gish, play a valor bard or blade-pact warlock, and enjoy full casting plus better cantrips.

    And I still think there's a beauty in the simple depth of the Champion archetype. Sure, you can come up with all kinds of situations where another character might be better. But it's very hard to come up with any combat situation where the champion won't do fine. Between multiple fighting styles, the fighter's own action surge and indomitable, and the fact that champions add half proficiency to initiative and the same or more to any other combat check one can think of, the champion is very hard to shut down. It's just a beautifully simple, consistently effective, constantly underestimated character.
    Yep, this^

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    For a Champion to be good at its passive increase it would need something along the lines of the following, imo:

    - Ability to use weapons one size larger than normally allowed. (Monkey Grip.)
    - Expertise on Athletics checks in addition to remarkable athlete.
    - Con/Str version of Evasion.

    I'm fine with a "I passively do things better" approach, but it doesn't do enough things better enough.

    Two Problems:
    1. I think a problem on these boards is looking at everything at level 20, in my experience VERY few games reach level 12, let alone 20.

    2. The other thing is remember that multiclassing and even feats are optional, and I know DMs who do not allow MC, and one that only allows feats because I convinced him. I personally would like to see the Champion get certain feats as class features, that way its not based on the DM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    To say that there is nothing new under the sun, is to forget there are more suns than we could possibly know what to do with and that there are probably a lot of new things under them.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    The champion, battle master, and EK are all underwhelming. The game makes them all useful due to the maths and such, but they just don't stack up when it comes to class features and being interesting.

    The reason for this is actually the same reason that the 3.5 fighter sucked. The creators of 3.5 made the system and put to much credit into the BAB system. If you had more attacks and you could do more damage then obviously people will love doing that. The Fighter in 5e has this same issue but it is a bit different. They all are based around swinging a sword or dealing damage. It is like the 4e ranger with twin strike, sure that class was top tier damage dealing but, meh, who wants to just"I move and attack".

    The developers took the fighter and said that more damage is fun. They applied this to every class so now the fighter doesn't even have that as its own thing anymore.

    Some people want a kill it all and forget everything else, but I've seen to many games days where people were disgusted by the fighter, yes all versions of it (though just parts of the EK and the stupid limitations on it). Its better than the 3e version since you can keep up with the game on killing things but it can be just as boring unless you out magic in it.

    Hell it's one of the big three hot button topics. Wildshape, RAW v RAI, and Fighter.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    I agree, but I think BM and EK are at least decent. BM just needs more and better manuevers, or ones that scale, and a method to regain SD in battle. That's an easy fix for me as a DM. Champion just sucks, imo - BUT I get that some people want a simple class that just hits stuff, so I think there is a place for it in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    To say that there is nothing new under the sun, is to forget there are more suns than we could possibly know what to do with and that there are probably a lot of new things under them.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Troll in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    NW USA
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Although faster paced combat helps reduce how boring move and Attack is. 3.X combat pace meant move and Attack got to happen every few minutes real time at best; at least now things move quickly so you are moving, choosing targets, and killing them at a brisk pace.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Dallas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    While the Champion is not a bad subclass, I think what most here find off-putting is that most (all?) his abilities are passive. You just add so-and-so to your roll, heal this many hit points, etc. There's practically no choice involved. Except which extra style to take at level 10, but that's just once.

    I believe I speak on behalf of more than just myself when I say players like cool abilities they can activate.

    "I use Sundering Strike!"
    "I respond with Arcane Dismemberment!", and so on. The Champion offers none of that. Again, not bad mechanically, just unappealing for me.
    I disagree. The majority of fighter players in my experience have all be going with the champion. And while it may not have alot of "activated abilities" the most important aspects of a fighter's core are superior in the champion. Staying power, and damage potential. While the EK has spell options, spells are subject to countering and dispelling and anti-magic, and the BM can use up his maneuver dice in just a couple of rounds.

    For me, I like having abilities that can't be canceled, dispelled, or run out. And as far as "activated", my view differs slightly. I consider an attack that hits harder than almost any other attack (resource expenditure or not) that I can activate multiple times a round all day long makes me particularly happy with the class.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

    http://imgur.com/gallery/lsOa0Lr

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
    Archer 1: "I cast darkness, but I have devil's sight so it won't affect me."
    Archer 2: "I lay flat on my back. Your move, creep."

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86 View Post
    I disagree. The majority of fighter players in my experience have all be going with the champion. And while it may not have alot of "activated abilities" the most important aspects of a fighter's core are superior in the champion. Staying power, and damage potential. While the EK has spell options, spells are subject to countering and dispelling and anti-magic, and the BM can use up his maneuver dice in just a couple of rounds.

    For me, I like having abilities that can't be canceled, dispelled, or run out. And as far as "activated", my view differs slightly. I consider an attack that hits harder than almost any other attack (resource expenditure or not) that I can activate multiple times a round all day long makes me particularly happy with the class.
    And the Rogue does all that better than the fighter could ever dream of. If the fighter was built more like the rogue I dot think people would have such a problem with it.

    The rogue is pretty damn easy to use, has interesting options, has a spell caster option, and can go all day if used right (just as long as the fighter once Second Wind falls off at level... 5 ish).

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Giant2005's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    And the Rogue does all that better than the fighter could ever dream of. If the fighter was built more like the rogue I dot think people would have such a problem with it.

    The rogue is pretty damn easy to use, has interesting options, has a spell caster option, and can go all day if used right (just as long as the fighter once Second Wind falls off at level... 5 ish).
    Rogues are even less interesting in combat - purely by virtue of having more attacks, the fighter has more options. A Rogue that uses his only attack to shove someone would have to be a nutjob whereas it is perfectly reasonable for a Fighter to do so as he will still deal respectable damage (Possibly even more by using the shove). IMO attacking only once is just really, really un-fun even if you do get a sneak attack off and roll a whole bunch of dice with that attack.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86 View Post
    I disagree. The majority of fighter players in my experience have all be going with the champion. And while it may not have alot of "activated abilities" the most important aspects of a fighter's core are superior in the champion. Staying power, and damage potential. While the EK has spell options, spells are subject to countering and dispelling and anti-magic, and the BM can use up his maneuver dice in just a couple of rounds.

    For me, I like having abilities that can't be canceled, dispelled, or run out. And as far as "activated", my view differs slightly. I consider an attack that hits harder than almost any other attack (resource expenditure or not) that I can activate multiple times a round all day long makes me particularly happy with the class.
    Conversely everybody in my entire group thinks Champion sucks, entirely independent of me voicing any opinion on it, even the guy who wanted to play a Champion for the exact reasons laid out in the Pro-Champion posts in this thread decided that it sucks and he's going to roll a BM.

    Rogue and Barbarian both do what Champion does better, in addition to more stuff. The only awesome thing the champion gets, it gets at level 18. WOW. How many games even make it there?

    Also, the Oath of Ancients paladin gets a regeneration ability (granted much more limited) and has way more other stuff.

    I want to like the Champion but it needs more meat, hence my suggestions above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    Rogues are even less interesting in combat - purely by virtue of having more attacks, the fighter has more options. A Rogue that uses his only attack to shove someone would have to be a nutjob whereas it is perfectly reasonable for a Fighter to do so as he will still deal respectable damage (Possibly even more by using the shove). IMO attacking only once is just really, really un-fun even if you do get a sneak attack off and roll a whole bunch of dice with that attack.
    As a rogue player I gotta disagree. I have to worry about my positioning and taret selection to make sure I can get sneak attack (especially if I am ranged and using stealth), I have all kinds of interesting options for my bonus action (Do I try and Hide? Dash? Use an Object?). Not to mention the target I choose to attack, is much more likely to die from that one attack than the fighter's, and due to my stealth I probably have advantage on getting that attack to hit.

    Sure more attacks is fun, but only if I get to make decisions with those attacks. Now granted this is a playstyle preference, but my point is that the Champion, even with a passive oriented playstyle, needs to be beefed up some.
    Last edited by Garimeth; 2015-02-12 at 10:04 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    To say that there is nothing new under the sun, is to forget there are more suns than we could possibly know what to do with and that there are probably a lot of new things under them.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Dallas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    And the Rogue does all that better than the fighter could ever dream of. If the fighter was built more like the rogue I dot think people would have such a problem with it.

    The rogue is pretty damn easy to use, has interesting options, has a spell caster option, and can go all day if used right (just as long as the fighter once Second Wind falls off at level... 5 ish).
    The rogue is well designed, I agree. The champion fighter still does more damage. As it should, its a Fighter. Just average damages displayed:

    1 attack + Sneak attack: (9.5 + 35) 44.5 (1d8)

    4 attacks (12 x 4) 48 (2d6)

    This is just average damage using average dice + modifier. No critical hit calculations, no feats, no fighting styles, and assuming every hit lands.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

    http://imgur.com/gallery/lsOa0Lr

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
    Archer 1: "I cast darkness, but I have devil's sight so it won't affect me."
    Archer 2: "I lay flat on my back. Your move, creep."

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86 View Post
    The rogue is well designed, I agree. The champion fighter still does more damage. As it should, its a Fighter. Just average damages displayed:

    1 attack + Sneak attack: (9.5 + 35) 44.5 (1d8)

    4 attacks (12 x 4) 48 (2d6)

    This is just average damage using average dice + modifier. No critical hit calculations, no feats, no fighting styles, and assuming every hit lands.
    The problem is not every attack hits, the rogue is more likely to have advantage, and that damage difference is nominal.

    At the very least the champion should get expertise on athletics skill, a con or str version of evasion, and something else (again my vote being something like monkey grip or one of the feats as a class feature).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    To say that there is nothing new under the sun, is to forget there are more suns than we could possibly know what to do with and that there are probably a lot of new things under them.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    Rogues are even less interesting in combat - purely by virtue of having more attacks, the fighter has more options. A Rogue that uses his only attack to shove someone would have to be a nutjob whereas it is perfectly reasonable for a Fighter to do so as he will still deal respectable damage (Possibly even more by using the shove). IMO attacking only once is just really, really un-fun even if you do get a sneak attack off and roll a whole bunch of dice with that attack.
    OK so I see you never played a rogue yet. Go read the rogue's ability or play as a rogue for a while.

    Rogue with expertise is more likely to win the shoving contest than a fighter. Then the rogue can use disengage as a bonus action, then the rogue can go hide. Party members attack or the creature gets up and (because the Rogue has expertise in stealth) can't find said rogue.

    Sneak attack.

    Move + BA Hide

    Rinse and repeat. The creature will use half movement getting up, even if the rogue couldn't hide they have a big head start on running away.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Dallas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Garimeth View Post
    The problem is not every attack hits, the rogue is more likely to have advantage, and that damage difference is nominal.

    At the very least the champion should get expertise on athletics skill, a con or str version of evasion, and something else (again my vote being something like monkey grip or one of the feats as a class feature).
    You are correct, not ever hit lands.

    The champion has an equal chance for advantage on 3 attacks per round simply by using one to shove.

    I was simply doing a comparison of baseline damage, devoid of all other factors to point out that even at its base, the champion does more damage. When you factor other things in, the champion does significantly more damage than the rogue.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

    http://imgur.com/gallery/lsOa0Lr

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
    Archer 1: "I cast darkness, but I have devil's sight so it won't affect me."
    Archer 2: "I lay flat on my back. Your move, creep."

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Giant2005's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Garimeth View Post
    The problem is not every attack hits, the rogue is more likely to have advantage, and that damage difference is nominal.
    Against AC 20 the Rogue inflicts an average of 28.675 damage per turn. Against the same target the Fighter inflicts 37 (Using the setup from the above poster - Rapier and Greatsword respectively).

    Quote Originally Posted by Garimeth View Post
    At the very least the champion should get expertise on athletics skill, a con or str version of evasion, and something else (again my vote being something like monkey grip or one of the feats as a class feature).
    I really like the idea of the con/str version of Evasion, although personally I think the aready-existing Evasion ability should cover those two stats already - dodging a poison cloud should use the exact same process as dodging a fireball.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    OK so I see you never played a rogue yet. Go read the rogue's ability or play as a rogue for a while.

    Rogue with expertise is more likely to win the shoving contest than a fighter. Then the rogue can use disengage as a bonus action, then the rogue can go hide. Party members attack or the creature gets up and (because the Rogue has expertise in stealth) can't find said rogue.

    Sneak attack.

    Move + BA Hide

    Rinse and repeat. The creature will use half movement getting up, even if the rogue couldn't hide they have a big head start on running away.
    But the Fighter can do the exact same thing to the Rogue with the addition of 3 extra attacks worth of damage every time he shoves the rogue and the likelihood of striking first. Then again I don't think a Fighter would want to use a tactic like that - hit and run is a lot less fun that slash and stab.
    Plus for some reason your Rogue is getting a lot more turns than he should be (Unless he is a Thief and it is the first round of combat). Shove + disengage = 1 action so that Fighter should be acting before the Rogue can hide.
    Last edited by Giant2005; 2015-02-12 at 10:22 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Dallas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    I am AFB, does the wording for improved critical call out weapon attacks? Or can it be applied to say, spells?
    Last edited by Fwiffo86; 2015-02-12 at 10:22 AM.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

    http://imgur.com/gallery/lsOa0Lr

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
    Archer 1: "I cast darkness, but I have devil's sight so it won't affect me."
    Archer 2: "I lay flat on my back. Your move, creep."

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Giant2005's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86 View Post
    I am AFB, does the wording for improved critical call out weapon attacks? Or can it be applied to say, spells?
    It calls out weapon attacks.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    Against AC 20 the Rogue inflicts an average of 28.675 damage per turn. Against the same target the Fighter inflicts 37 (Using the setup from the above poster - Rapier and Greatsword respectively).


    I really like the idea of the con/str version of Evasion, although personally I think the aready-existing Evasion ability should cover those two stats already - dodging a poison cloud should use the exact same process as dodging a fireball.
    Ahh that's better than the 4 point difference listed above.

    I would think of it not as being evasive, but being tough, hence it being STR or CON - you're not dodging, you're just a beast and shake it off. I also think expertise to athletics is mandatory, otherwise the Champ isn't even the best athlete, the bard or rogue is. A passive bonus to movement speed wouldn't hurt either, not a big one. I like the concept, but its a poor execution imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    To say that there is nothing new under the sun, is to forget there are more suns than we could possibly know what to do with and that there are probably a lot of new things under them.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Easy_Lee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2014

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    OK so I see you never played a rogue yet. Go read the rogue's ability or play as a rogue for a while.

    Rogue with expertise is more likely to win the shoving contest than a fighter. Then the rogue can use disengage as a bonus action, then the rogue can go hide. Party members attack or the creature gets up and (because the Rogue has expertise in stealth) can't find said rogue.
    Rogues only get so many expertise skills, and will typically take stealth as one of them. Many rogues take sleight of hand, thieves' tools, acrobatics, nature (poisons), deception, and so on as expertise. Further, few Rogues gave high strength.

    Point is that a strength-based rogue with expertise in athletics is pretty niche. Skills are the rogue's forte, so I don't see anything wrong with a dedicated rogue being among the best shovers.

    That said, getting more opportunities to shove is better than getting one opportunity with expertise. Since fighters have proficiency in athletics, and since the champion is likely to have strength just as high as anyone else, we have up to a +6 difference between the two rolls. +6 is not as good as four attempts. Even if the rogue is even more dedicated and made it to reliable talent, I'd still rather have extra opportunities for shoves than one good check.

    Besides, how often is the target of your shove considerably stronger than you anyway? It's something you use on flighty types, to grapple them then knock them over so they can't run and have disadvantage. Unlike the rogue, the fighter can eventually attempt both of those things twice in the same round.

    I wouldn't disagree with a house rule to give fighters athletics expertise. That doesn't seem like a bad change. But I think that's really a criticism of the fighter class in general, and is not particular to champions.
    Last edited by Easy_Lee; 2015-02-12 at 10:36 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    I wouldn't disagree with a house rule to give fighters athletics expertise. That doesn't seem like a bad change. But I think that's really a criticism of the fighter class in general, and is not particular to champions.

    Maybe, but my issue is I want to make both subclasses better, yet distinct. The remarkable athlete is a Champion schtick, let's let him be the best at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    To say that there is nothing new under the sun, is to forget there are more suns than we could possibly know what to do with and that there are probably a lot of new things under them.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Garimeth View Post
    Ahh that's better than the 4 point difference listed above.

    I would think of it not as being evasive, but being tough, hence it being STR or CON - you're not dodging, you're just a beast and shake it off. I also think expertise to athletics is mandatory, otherwise the Champ isn't even the best athlete, the bard or rogue is. A passive bonus to movement speed wouldn't hurt either, not a big one. I like the concept, but its a poor execution imo.
    the gap closes considerably once the rogue gets a way to make a second attack (for example, by dual-wielding or from crossbow expert) and thus having a better chance of applying those tasty sneak attack dice. and it gets ugly if the rogue manages to get an opportunity attack in somewhere and adds sneak attack to that...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •