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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppo87 View Post
    In defense of the developers

    They made their math. They know the exact extent of the Champion's damage and durability and they concluded it was just as good as the other Fighter Options while simpler and less customizable (which is the point of the champion)
    I agree with this opinion entirely. The views of specific individuals is in no way indicative of the class being weak or strong. People's own preferences will color their opinions.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
    Archer 1: "I cast darkness, but I have devil's sight so it won't affect me."
    Archer 2: "I lay flat on my back. Your move, creep."

  2. - Top - End - #182
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86 View Post
    Total up the spells received from only leveling. Basically is 38 spells + what the wizard started with. Personally (and this is just opinion), that's more than enough spells for the wizard's needs.

    I tend to not give any spells out to wizards to copy into their book above 5th level. That's simply because they are the rare of the rare.
    yes, clearly they were given that ability because it was intended for them to never ever ever ever under any circumstances whatsoever no matter what be able to use it.

    why don't we also start removing all the useful animals from the world so that druids can't change into them? what's that, you want to buy poison to enhance your attacks? well, can't have anyone trying to play their character effectively, so there's no poison anywhere and this world doesn't have poisoner's kits to gain proficiency in.

    this is just silly. unless you never plan to have them run into another wizard, it is damned near impossible to enforce, because the other wizard should be just as excited about learning their spells as they are about learning the other wizard's spells. if they ever fight an enemy wizard, then they likewise will be gaining another spellbook they can get spells from.

    lots of things are rare. that doesn't justify never giving them to anyone under any circumstances. hell, high level characters are rare, do you enforce NPC status on characters once they reach a certain level to keep them out of the players' hands? magic items are rare, do those all vanish from your world? powerful monsters are rare. do those all vanish from your world too? i bet there are more potential sources of high level spells in the world than there are ancient wyrm red dragons.

    now, if you want to say that they can't just walk into a small town and readily find a source of high level spells, sure, that makes sense. but odds are good that at some point along the way, they're going to run into a powerful wizard or even an organization of powerful wizards, and there should be potential to learn spells from them one way or another (whether that be by defeating a necromancer or by joining a mage's guild or in exchange for helping an archmage with a problem that he'd rather not deal with personally).

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    yes, clearly they were given that ability because it was intended for them to never ever ever ever under any circumstances whatsoever no matter what be able to use it.
    Did you miss the part where their class ability is addressed specifically in my post? Or did you skip that entirely?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    why don't we also start removing all the useful animals from the world so that druids can't change into them? what's that, you want to buy poison to enhance your attacks? well, can't have anyone trying to play their character effectively, so there's no poison anywhere and this world doesn't have poisoner's kits to gain proficiency in.
    Did you also miss the bit where I don't just "hand out" spells above 5th level? It would appear to me that better than half of the spells a Wiz can cast are available and will be granted in my games. Since you aren't actually playing my game, and I'm not instructing you to use this method, why does this even bother you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    this is just silly. unless you never plan to have them run into another wizard, it is damned near impossible to enforce, because the other wizard should be just as excited about learning their spells as they are about learning the other wizard's spells. if they ever fight an enemy wizard, then they likewise will be gaining another spellbook they can get spells from.
    Game world statistics so you understand better. People capable of learning and using Wizard magic (actual wizard class) in my game world breakdown by race population. Note, Mystara themed. No half breed races, nor are there tieflings, dragonborn, or other such races. (EDIT ADD) Wizards like to keep their power in my experience. Which makes "trading" spells an iffy and potentially dangerous proposition. Why would you give information about your capabilities to someone you just met, know nothing about, much less trust? (End Edit)

    Humans - 1 in 100,000
    Elves - 1 in 5,000
    Dwarf - 1 in 500,000
    Halfling - 1 in 10,000
    Orc - 1 in 100,000

    Of those that become wizards, the breakdown works this way by level:

    01-05 - 100%
    06-10 - 75%
    11-15 - 30%
    17-20 - 5%

    As you can see, wizards of high level are rare. As I believe they should be. Thus, corresponding research and usage that disseminates their spells into the general world is likewise rare and virtually unheard of.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    lots of things are rare. that doesn't justify never giving them to anyone under any circumstances. hell, high level characters are rare, do you enforce NPC status on characters once they reach a certain level to keep them out of the players' hands? magic items are rare, do those all vanish from your world? powerful monsters are rare. do those all vanish from your world too? i bet there are more potential sources of high level spells in the world than there are ancient wyrm red dragons.
    NPC status - No

    Magic items - No they do not vanish. They remain either with the deceased character where they died, or are given to appropriate caretakers.

    Monsters - 99% of the enemies my players face are humanoids, not monsters. Monsters are the result of enemy spell summons, exceptionally rare legendary creatures, etc.

    Dragons - You basically have an equal chance to find a 9th level spell scroll as you do an Ancient Dragon (Greyhawk type, no colors). The dragon will certainly have a name. A history. And be significantly more dangerous because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    now, if you want to say that they can't just walk into a small town and readily find a source of high level spells, sure, that makes sense. but odds are good that at some point along the way, they're going to run into a powerful wizard or even an organization of powerful wizards, and there should be potential to learn spells from them one way or another (whether that be by defeating a necromancer or by joining a mage's guild or in exchange for helping an archmage with a problem that he'd rather not deal with personally).
    Do your wizards carry their full spell book with them when traveling? Do they risk losing all of their most powerful secret knowledge every time they step away from their sanctuary? My players don't. They have traveling books that contain what they expect to use most often, and NEVER include their full list. Nor would the enemy wizards they face. As such, no, killing an enemy wizard does not guarantee the wizard learn any new spell. It certainly has the possibility, but it is not the default assumption in my games.

    If you play differently, by all means go for it. I am not commenting on HOW you should run your game. I am simply making statements about how my game is ran. You obviously don't like my methods. You aren't meant to.
    Last edited by Fwiffo86; 2015-02-16 at 01:03 PM.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
    Archer 1: "I cast darkness, but I have devil's sight so it won't affect me."
    Archer 2: "I lay flat on my back. Your move, creep."

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86 View Post
    Total up the spells received from only leveling. Basically is 38 spells + what the wizard started with. Personally (and this is just opinion), that's more than enough spells for the wizard's needs.

    I tend to not give any spells out to wizards to copy into their book above 5th level. That's simply because they are the rare of the rare.
    Do wizard guilds not exist or players never run across a wizard ever? And if they do... Do they have the same exact spells as the party wizard?

    I'm not saying a wizard should be able to copy every spell down... But... The length of what people go to atop it is insane. Also it seems like people are OK to DM fiat "can't find spells haha" but if you DM fiat anything else then you are a monster of a DM.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    Do wizard guilds not exist or players never run across a wizard ever? And if they do... Do they have the same exact spells as the party wizard?

    I'm not saying a wizard should be able to copy every spell down... But... The length of what people go to atop it is insane. Also it seems like people are OK to DM fiat "can't find spells haha" but if you DM fiat anything else then you are a monster of a DM.
    To answer your question, as far as my game world goes, Wizards teach apprentices. One wizard, one apprentice. There are no guilds, colleges, or schools. Magic is generally untrusted by the common folk. In some cases, to the point where they will witch trial a spellcaster. Often not making a distinction between divine or arcane.

    The majority of "classed" individuals fall into the fighter, barbarian or rogue categories actually.
    Last edited by Fwiffo86; 2015-02-16 at 01:59 PM.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
    Archer 1: "I cast darkness, but I have devil's sight so it won't affect me."
    Archer 2: "I lay flat on my back. Your move, creep."

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quoth Fwiffo86:

    To address this specific statement, not having a choice prevents someone from making a bad one correct? The warrior has fewer options, yes. But his options are always available, and always reliable.
    The warrior's options are the opposite of that. When the enemy are shooting arrows at you from the other side of a canyon, the fighter's sword option isn't available. When you're trying to convince the duke to offer his aid to the party, his sword and bow options are both unavailable. When you're fighting an enemy with very high AC, the fighter's options are all available, but none of them are reliable. The wizard, meanwhile, has options that will work well in all of these situations, and can prepare all of them at once if desired.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    The warrior's options are the opposite of that. When the enemy are shooting arrows at you from the other side of a canyon, the fighter's sword option isn't available. When you're trying to convince the duke to offer his aid to the party, his sword and bow options are both unavailable. When you're fighting an enemy with very high AC, the fighter's options are all available, but none of them are reliable. The wizard, meanwhile, has options that will work well in all of these situations, and can prepare all of them at once if desired.
    And none of them have perfect reliability either. The fighter has more reliability with his options when they become relevant. The wizard is only relevant if he has the spell AND he has it prepared. More importantly, when convincing the duke, you send a rogue. When dealing with enemies behind cover, you switch weapons. The wizard is no more reliable (and in many cases less so) than any other class.

    Again... you are discussing potential. The wizard does indeed have the potential to do all these things. That in no way means he automatically can be considered to do so.

    Hard as this may be to accept, my job isn't to empower the wizard and enable him to take everyone elses spotlight. It could be argued the exact opposite is true. Potential is meaningless when you don't have the right tool for the job.
    Last edited by Fwiffo86; 2015-02-16 at 02:10 PM.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

    http://imgur.com/gallery/lsOa0Lr

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
    Archer 1: "I cast darkness, but I have devil's sight so it won't affect me."
    Archer 2: "I lay flat on my back. Your move, creep."

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Champion can use a bow. Bounded Accuracy means everyone has a chance to convince the Duke, it also means you shouldn't be fighting things you can't hit.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Bounded accuracy is supposed to mean that you shouldn't be fighting things you can't hit, but what it actually does mean is that when you do, there's nothing you can do about it.

    The wizard is only relevant if he has the spell AND he has it prepared.
    OK, and the solution to that is to have the spell and have it prepared. This isn't difficult. All you're really saying is that wizards are subpar if you play them like an idiot, and the solution to that is to not play them like an idiot.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Bounded accuracy is supposed to mean that you shouldn't be fighting things you can't hit, but what it actually does mean is that when you do, there's nothing you can do about it.

    But...if your fighter can't hit something that means it's high enough level to absolutely destroy you.

    Your same level wizard isn't doing any better in that situation at all.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Bounded accuracy is supposed to mean that you shouldn't be fighting things you can't hit, but what it actually does mean is that when you do, there's nothing you can do about it.


    OK, and the solution to that is to have the spell and have it prepared. This isn't difficult. All you're really saying is that wizards are subpar if you play them like an idiot, and the solution to that is to not play them like an idiot.
    That is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that the wizard does not by definition have the solution to all problems. EVER. Even if he is played to the best of conceivable possibility, he will never, nor should he ever supplant the usefulness of other characters at all times. Players that do so are being selfish, and DMs that enable that behavior are running poor games.

    If you expect your wizards to do this, you have been playing under poor DMs for too long. Every character should be useful. It's the DMs job to ensure this. If that means that I don't allow the wizard to learn Tenser's Disk to ensure that the heavy lifting dwarf fighter has more usefulness, then that is what I'm going to do. If that means that I restrict the wizard from finding a spell because I want him to spend his resources in development of powerful magic for the explicit purpose of doing X, then that is what I'm going to do.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

    http://imgur.com/gallery/lsOa0Lr

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
    Archer 1: "I cast darkness, but I have devil's sight so it won't affect me."
    Archer 2: "I lay flat on my back. Your move, creep."

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Bounded accuracy is supposed to mean that you shouldn't be fighting things you can't hit, but what it actually does mean is that when you do, there's nothing you can do about it.
    There is nothing in the game that you cannot hit and there is nothing in the game that will always succeed (or even fail) at a casters DC. Now, if you are saying that in a game where a player chooses not to have ranged and Melee weapons, it is not the DMs fault, nor the requirement of the DM to accommodate the stupidity of the players.

    Now, there are rare things in the game that take half damage from your hit or even immune if you don't have a party work together, but that is acceptable in DnD because the idea is that the Party fights monsters, not a single class by himself in an open void.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    OK, and the solution to that is to have the spell and have it prepared. This isn't difficult. All you're really saying is that wizards are subpar if you play them like an idiot, and the solution to that is to not play them like an idiot.


    I didn't know that having the the wrong spell prepared was a mark of an idiot.

    Scenarios:
    1) Wizard is running through an Ice dungeon and prepares Fire spells, does not prepare things related to Fire Resist. Gets near the end and finds that the enemies there had multiple Fire Salamanders in a cave to be able to warm up whenever they wanted to. Wizard does not have any attacks prepared to fight them since they are immune to fire. wow, what a moronic Wizard for not preparing the correct damage spells
    2) Wizard is going into a Castle and chases the BBEG down a flight of steps, suddenly the BBEG quaffs a jumps into a hidden underground river. If only the Wizard had known that the enemy was going to do this he could have prepared Water Breathing. How stupid he was for not having the perfect plan for this unexpected situation.
    3) Fleeing from a large Giant, the party pulls around a corner and hides in a small cave. They tell the wizard to cast a Silent image like they have seen him do in the past. He tells them, but we were fighting a giant today, why would I have prepared a spell like that for this fight? Is he really an idiot for not seeing the party running into a tougher challenge and not having that specific spell prepared?

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Also the expectation that a wizard will have a spell available for every random instance is absurd. If my random encounter has lightning based enemies, the wizard will not have "Protection from Lightning" prepared. No one prepares that.

    He could, but he wouldn't.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post

    But...if your fighter can't hit something that means it's high enough level to absolutely destroy you.

    Your same level wizard isn't doing any better in that situation at all.
    For some perspective on this all, the highest AC monster in the MM has only 25 AC.

    So at level 1 you can, theoretically hit that with only a +3 in your attack stat.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post
    For some perspective on this all, the highest AC monster in the MM has only 25 AC.

    So at level 1 you can, theoretically hit that with only a +3 in your attack stat.
    Not to mention that a 20 always succeeds, so you can hit anything, anytime, albeit with very slim chance of doing so.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post
    For some perspective on this all, the highest AC monster in the MM has only 25 AC.

    So at level 1 you can, theoretically hit that with only a +3 in your attack stat.
    4 in attack stat...

    20 = auto hit whatever (so hits with -4 in attack stat)
    19+2(prof bonus)+3=24=miss
    19+2+4=25=hit

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by jkat718 View Post
    Not to mention that a 20 always succeeds, so you can hit anything, anytime, albeit with very slim chance of doing so.
    Improved crit range also auto hits. It's not much but 18-20 crit range always hits on 18-20.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Myzz View Post
    4 in attack stat...

    20 = auto hit whatever (so hits with -4 in attack stat)
    19+2(prof bonus)+3=24=miss
    19+2+4=25=hit
    20 roll + 3 ABIL + 2 PROF >= 25 AC
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by jkat718 View Post
    Not to mention that a 20 always succeeds, so you can hit anything, anytime, albeit with very slim chance of doing so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myzz View Post
    4 in attack stat...

    20 = auto hit whatever (so hits with -4 in attack stat)
    19+2(prof bonus)+3=24=miss
    19+2+4=25=hit
    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    Improved crit range also auto hits. It's not much but 18-20 crit range always hits on 18-20.
    Good points all, this is by design. It's not meant to be 3.5 where the players can be basically screwed.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogonjeltz View Post
    Good points all, this is by design. It's not meant to be 3.5 where the players can be basically screwed.

    Well, relying on a roll of 18+ will still screw you if you don't have the proper defense or support.

    I've seen people go forever without critical hitting with a champion (like, months) so you know they would be screwed without proper backup or defensive options.

    Which is one of the reasons I hate the champion/fighter... They have nothing else other than roll a d20 and see if you are accidentally good/safe.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86 View Post
    Did you miss the part where their class ability is addressed specifically in my post? Or did you skip that entirely?



    Did you also miss the bit where I don't just "hand out" spells above 5th level? It would appear to me that better than half of the spells a Wiz can cast are available and will be granted in my games. Since you aren't actually playing my game, and I'm not instructing you to use this method, why does this even bother you?



    Game world statistics so you understand better. People capable of learning and using Wizard magic (actual wizard class) in my game world breakdown by race population. Note, Mystara themed. No half breed races, nor are there tieflings, dragonborn, or other such races. (EDIT ADD) Wizards like to keep their power in my experience. Which makes "trading" spells an iffy and potentially dangerous proposition. Why would you give information about your capabilities to someone you just met, know nothing about, much less trust? (End Edit)

    Humans - 1 in 100,000
    Elves - 1 in 5,000
    Dwarf - 1 in 500,000
    Halfling - 1 in 10,000
    Orc - 1 in 100,000

    Of those that become wizards, the breakdown works this way by level:

    01-05 - 100%
    06-10 - 75%
    11-15 - 30%
    17-20 - 5%

    As you can see, wizards of high level are rare. As I believe they should be. Thus, corresponding research and usage that disseminates their spells into the general world is likewise rare and virtually unheard of.



    NPC status - No

    Magic items - No they do not vanish. They remain either with the deceased character where they died, or are given to appropriate caretakers.

    Monsters - 99% of the enemies my players face are humanoids, not monsters. Monsters are the result of enemy spell summons, exceptionally rare legendary creatures, etc.

    Dragons - You basically have an equal chance to find a 9th level spell scroll as you do an Ancient Dragon (Greyhawk type, no colors). The dragon will certainly have a name. A history. And be significantly more dangerous because of it.



    Do your wizards carry their full spell book with them when traveling? Do they risk losing all of their most powerful secret knowledge every time they step away from their sanctuary? My players don't. They have traveling books that contain what they expect to use most often, and NEVER include their full list. Nor would the enemy wizards they face. As such, no, killing an enemy wizard does not guarantee the wizard learn any new spell. It certainly has the possibility, but it is not the default assumption in my games.

    If you play differently, by all means go for it. I am not commenting on HOW you should run your game. I am simply making statements about how my game is ran. You obviously don't like my methods. You aren't meant to.
    ok, so let's assume there are, say, 100 million humans in your world... a pretty small number for an entire world, all things considered.

    that means there are 1,000 human wizards. 350 of them can cast level 6+ spells, and of those 350, 50 can cast level 9 spells.

    furthermore, those wizards, being super high level, are probably well-known on account of they have world-altering powers.

    now imagine we do that for every race that has wizards. that's not exactly one on every corner, but again, these are basically going to be legends. there are people out there who know high level magic.

    as to trusting them, well, out of curiosity... do you look at random people and think "hey, that guy probably wants to murder me and steal everything I own", or do you typically think that most of them might like some of your stuff, but probably are not willing to murder or steal on account of they're not murderers or thieves and don't want to be murderers or thieves, no matter how much they might like to have your car, whatever cash you may have, or your various other possessions.

    there isn't really a terribly compelling reason for a wizard to assume that "I would like to learn a spell" translates to "I am here to steal everything you have and murder you if you don't let me do that".

    wizards have a class ability that lets them scribe scrolls they find and write down spells they learn from other wizards. it is only reasonable to presume that the intention was for wizards to be able to find such things to scribe, otherwise they would not have the ability to do so; they would just learn spells when they level up, and that's that.

    as to carrying spellbooks... well, yes. if you don't have your spellbooks on you (or at least readily accessible), you don't have the ability to operate at full strength. frankly, if anything, having your spellbook on your person means that nobody can target your spellbook without you being able to do something about it. certainly, it's a good idea to have a backup, but why on earth would you leave half of your class features behind when you go on a dangerous journey?

    as to knowing the right spells at the right time, well, there are an assortment of classes that gain massive benefits from being able to prepare. clerics, druids, and wizards being the three that gain the most. of those classes, two are the most likely to be wise beyond what you're likely to encounter in an ordinary human, and the third is a super-genius. so... quite frankly, yes, if you have the wrong spells prepared, you are probably playing your class badly; you have class features (ie spells) that can let you gather information before you commit to anything, and failure to use those abilities does mean you are playing your class well below its capabilities.

    it is particularly unlikely to be completely unprepared since a number of spells are quite versatile and fully capable of handling a wide variety of situations. you may not have water breathing prepared, but that doesn't mean you don't have some means of tracking your enemy through the underground river to its exit point, or some means of changing the party into something that can breathe underwater, or some means of summoning minions that can chase your enemy underwater for you, or some means of collapsing the river around the person.

    and on a side note, persecution generally speaking makes people more likely to get into groups, not less. persecution of wizards in particular or spellcasters in general sounds like just about the stupidest thing you can do. it's somewhat like poking a hornet's nest with a stick, except that instead of a bunch of angry hornets coming out and stinging you, you might get a fireball, or a curse that you can't remove because like some sort of dumbass you decided to make yourself an enemy to all the people who are capable of helping you. not liking them? sure, that's reasonable. actually doing anything about it that would make wizards more rare? good luck with that.

    furthermore, the simple fact of the matter is that casters in general are powerful enough that if there is a race or nation somewhere that accepts them, that race or nation will very quickly become the dominant one in the world (on account of being the only one that isn't too stupid to make use of their extremely impactful abilities), at which point the entire world is in control of a race or nation that doesn't mind spellcasters at all, and hey presto, no more problems with persecution.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    ok, so let's assume there are, say, 100 million humans in your world... a pretty small number for an entire world, all things considered.

    that means there are 1,000 human wizards. 350 of them can cast level 6+ spells, and of those 350, 50 can cast level 9 spells.

    furthermore, those wizards, being super high level, are probably well-known on account of they have world-altering powers.
    You are partially right. 50 wizards who have survived long enough to have access to 9th level spell slots. 50 wizards out of 100 million people.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    now imagine we do that for every race that has wizards. that's not exactly one on every corner, but again, these are basically going to be legends. there are people out there who know high level magic.
    You are correct. They have access to high level magic. Still, high level magic does not equal 50 million people. In the case of elves, its a much high percentage of the population, but still works out to there not being enough high level wizards to balance the scale against the millions of non-wizard people.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    there isn't really a terribly compelling reason for a wizard to assume that "I would like to learn a spell" translates to "I am here to steal everything you have and murder you if you don't let me do that".
    So you are saying that if you spent time say, developing a fusion bomb in your basement, and your neighbor found out about it, the first thing that would happen is that they would ask you to teach them how to make one too? Does that seem remotely likely? I'll let you in on a secret. Individuals are smart. Populations are not. You are far more likely to find your fusion bomb attracting unwanted attention from all sorts of places.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    wizards have a class ability that lets them scribe scrolls they find and write down spells they learn from other wizards. it is only reasonable to presume that the intention was for wizards to be able to find such things to scribe, otherwise they would not have the ability to do so; they would just learn spells when they level up, and that's that.
    Again, I did not say I would disallow this. I said that I would not add 6th-9th level scrolls to treasure. As described above, the number of Wizards who would write these things for their own personal use and then get themselves killed prevents such numbers from being feasible.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    ...but why on earth would you leave half of your class features behind when you go on a dangerous journey?
    Because the spell is not the class feature. The ability to cast is the class feature. The fighter's class ability is not his sword now is it? Is it fundamental to what he does? Yes. But it is not the class ability. To address the rest of this section, what happens when the wizard who has all of his spells with him loses his book? When he's done casting his spells, all he has is what he prepped that day from then on. What sort of Wizard risks losing all of his "Class features" at any time?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    as to knowing the right spells at the right time, well, there are an assortment of classes that gain massive benefits from being able to prepare. clerics, druids, and wizards being the three that gain the most. of those classes, two are the most likely to be wise beyond what you're likely to encounter in an ordinary human, and the third is a super-genius. so... quite frankly, yes, if you have the wrong spells prepared, you are probably playing your class badly; you have class features (ie spells) that can let you gather information before you commit to anything, and failure to use those abilities does mean you are playing your class well below its capabilities.
    Again, quit believing that because its on the spell list, that the Wizard will automatically have it available. Certainly if the wizard is a Diviner I would expect them to be able to gather info before hand. And certainly if they want to research those spells and obtain them at level up they would have them. But outside of these situations, you can not say he "WILL" have them. This is the problem here. Quit thinking that just because he can, he will. This is a fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    and on a side note, persecution generally speaking makes people more likely to get into groups, not less. persecution of wizards in particular or spellcasters in general sounds like just about the stupidest thing you can do. it's somewhat like poking a hornet's nest with a stick, except that instead of a bunch of angry hornets coming out and stinging you, you might get a fireball, or a curse that you can't remove because like some sort of dumbass you decided to make yourself an enemy to all the people who are capable of helping you. not liking them? sure, that's reasonable. actually doing anything about it that would make wizards more rare? good luck with that.
    See my fusion bomb analogy above for how I believe this would actually play out. If you go wandering into a crowd of people waving a flamethrower, what will happen? Do you think people will drop to their knees and praise the saints that you have arrived? No. More likely they will scream, call the authorities, and flee the area. The same applies for Magic and the common man.

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    furthermore, the simple fact of the matter is that casters in general are powerful enough that if there is a race or nation somewhere that accepts them, that race or nation will very quickly become the dominant one in the world (on account of being the only one that isn't too stupid to make use of their extremely impactful abilities), at which point the entire world is in control of a race or nation that doesn't mind spellcasters at all, and hey presto, no more problems with persecution.
    Except that casters are outnumbered something like 1million to one. That goes for Divine as well as Arcane in my games. You are correct though, kingdoms and religions will attempt to sway them, and depending on the player, succeed. Rival kingdoms will have them assassinated at the earliest opportunity while trying to recruit their own. Not to mention the same is to be said for evil casters. And thus, war continues and we still have stories to play out.

    What amazes me the most is that you don't seem to have any understanding of a game world outside the mechanics of an adventuring party. This is understandable as there is precious little information regarding what a high level character actually means to a world, or what high level magic of any aspect does to the world in general. Your views are most likely different. That does not make me any more incorrect than you.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    Also the expectation that a wizard will have a spell available for every random instance is absurd. If my random encounter has lightning based enemies, the wizard will not have "Protection from Lightning" prepared. No one prepares that.

    He could, but he wouldn't.
    3E/Pathfinder with all its magic says hi and welcomes you to the club of dealing with this ever since the Tier System was first created and even before then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erit View Post
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    tongue Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    3E/Pathfinder with all its magic says hi and welcomes you to the club of dealing with this ever since the Tier System was first created and even before then.
    So glad I skipped PF. Noticed the problem 6 months in to 3.0. Game world theme vs. Rules, making rule lawyers scream since day one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
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  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    the adventuring wizard isn't a neighbor. by the time you're looking for those spells, you're an equally-renowned theoretical physicist or something like that, and yes, I bet if you put two of the foremost physicists in the world into the same room together, they would probably want to spend time talking shop rather than trying to murder each other with death rays.

    and the wizard not bringing their spell book is more like a fighter not bringing a magic bow that they found, because they're primarily a melee fighter and the magic bow is a precious and valuable resource that they don't want to risk. the main class feature of wizards are the spells, and their main advantage over other arcane casters is that they can have the right tool for the right job. if you aren't going to do that, then why the hell are you playing a wizard instead of a bard that gets to cherrypick from any spell list they want or a sorcerer that can do ridiculous things with metamagic and don't have to worry at all about losing a spellbook (though once again, I'm unclear as to where you're leaving your spellbook that is safer than carrying it with you)

    as to the point about there being millions of non-casters for every caster... well, first of all, that is obviously blatantly false. if one in every 100,000 people is a wizard, and there are several other caster classes on top of that, then by your own statements, it very obviously is not millions to one.

    secondly, most of the non-casters are not going to sign up for a suicidal charge into someone who might be able to cast a fireball. even a first level spellcaster might have burning hands or thunderwave or something like that. furthermore, a significant portion of those non-casters will be the elderly/infirm or children. much more practically speaking, the only ones who are going to get involved are going to be soldiers, and even they will likely die in droves if they are dumb enough to adopt a "murder at the first opportunity" policy towards spellcasters. and, considering that spellcasters are much more likely to be able to not only kill large numbers of people who decide to murder them, but may even escape (invisibility, flight, shapechange into a small animal, etc), that may repeat itself several times for each caster.

    the simple fact of the matter is that real-world witch-hunts end up with a dead "witch" and a bunch of villagers that likely have more wounds as a result of being trampled by the mob than from the "witch" because real-world witches can't cast fireball. a D&D witch hunt could quite possibly end up with dozens of dead villagers, and an angry spellcaster escaping and vowing revenge on the idiots who tried to murder them, which the villagers quite possibly have no realistic defense against because they don't have any spellcasters.

    edit: and what on earth would possess you to think that only diviners would use divination magic to figure out what challenges are ahead? a transmuter benefits every bit as much from knowing what spells to prepare, as would an evoker or an illusionist or a necromancer, or a druid, or a cleric. they all can change their spell list as required, and it is a major part of their class features. if they are not taking advantage of it, whether they're a diviner or not, they are not living up to their class features.
    Last edited by SharkForce; 2015-02-16 at 06:09 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    100,000 regular people. 1 Wizard.

    1/4 people are infirm, too old to fight, or too young.

    75,000 regular people capable of fighting. 1 Wizard.

    1/100 people are willing to fight.

    750 regular people. 1 Wizard.

    In a straight fight, the Wizard loses through sheer numbers. But he can escape, easy, killing a couple hundred. But...

    300 killed.

    1/1 families angered over the deaths.

    600 people are now willing to fight.

    1050 total people willing to fight. 1 Wizard.

    Repeat until the Wizard is dead. And remember-there will be people with class levels. In fact, think about any adventure you've had hunting down an evil Wizard. I'd say killing a few hundred people is usually evil, wouldn't you?

    Edit: Also, no one is perfect. Unless you want to cast multiple divinations, every single day, one day you'll be caught with your pants around your ankles and get absolutely destroyed because all you have are cleaning spells and a horde of Orcs invaded your tower. Blued because some people take everything too seriously.
    Last edited by JNAProductions; 2015-02-16 at 06:43 PM.
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  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    edit: and what on earth would possess you to think that only diviners would use divination magic to figure out what challenges are ahead? a transmuter benefits every bit as much from knowing what spells to prepare, as would an evoker or an illusionist or a necromancer, or a druid, or a cleric. they all can change their spell list as required, and it is a major part of their class features. if they are not taking advantage of it, whether they're a diviner or not, they are not living up to their class features.
    Are you actually reading my posts? I will repost for clarification. The point of the post is this, and I can't spell it out any clearer than this.

    A spell on the wizard list does not equate to the wizard having learned it, or prepared it. Please stop treating it as such. Wizards only potentially have access to the entire wizard list. Potentially is far and away from actually having learned and prepped it for the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86
    Again, quit believing that because its on the spell list, that the Wizard will automatically have it available. Certainly if the wizard is a Diviner I would expect them to be able to gather info before hand. And certainly if other Wizards want to research those spells and obtain them at level up they would have them. But outside of these situations, you can not say he "WILL" have them. This is the problem here. Quit thinking that just because he can, he will. This is a fallacy.
    I can see where you got confused about my wording. The bolded words were added for clarification. You seem to be reading alot of things into my posts. Which is fine. I am done attempting to address your caster supremacy belief. I thank you for the discussion of course, but I think we should readdress the actual nature of the thread.
    Shhh, shhhh, It's Magic hunny. Space magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyLee
    Archer 1: "I cast darkness, but I have devil's sight so it won't affect me."
    Archer 2: "I lay flat on my back. Your move, creep."

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    the wizard isn't evil. there are 750 people willing to commit murder on the basis of not liking him. if some of them die in their attempt to commit murder, well, that's not evil. that's self-defense. just like it would not be evil if 50 people tried to come into your house and murder you and you managed to kill 20 of them with a gun that you own.

    meanwhile, I'd say that before long, there's going to be a pretty strong bias in the population towards not attempting mob justice against someone who can kill mobs.

    and why would the wizard only have cleaning spells, ever? is there ever a point in which you were getting ready for a day (or rather, RPing a caster who was), adventuring or otherwise, and you thought to yourself "wait, I have absolutely no room in my spell selection for some general-purpose spells or combat spells". I mean, you couldn't fit a single fly or teleport or anything to let you escape and return when you're ready?

    you might as well argue that the champion might be unable to bring a coil of rope with them because they had to wear armour. sure, they wear armour, and yes, it is heavy, but that doesn't mean that their decision to wear protective armour rules out the ability to carry weapons or useful tools.

    every character benefits to some extent from advance knowledge (whether that means that your archer fighter is going to need to carry a lot of spare arrows and a case for the bow to keep it from getting wet, or to let your wizard know that you will be fighting in narrow caves where a lightning bolt is more valuable than a fireball). wizards just benefit from it more, and have the ability to gain the knowledge they need to act.

    the fact that champions cannot adapt to situations nearly as much is a disadvantage, not an advantage. it reduces options, and that simply leads to a decrease in effectiveness against anything that is not suited for the one tool that they have.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    champions don't need to adapt, they're pretty much always good to go. if they want to adapt they should use their wits or items or rp.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Either I don't understand how wizards work or Sharkforce doesn't.

    Because I'm almost certain wizards have to prepare spells, so no, they won't have spells for every situation.

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