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  1. - Top - End - #211
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    100,000 regular people. 1 Wizard.
    25,000 are children. This leave 75,000 adults.
    15,000 are elderly. This leave 60,000.
    10,000 are pregnant or nursing women. This leave 50,000.
    30,000 aren't proficient with any kind of weapon. This leaves 20,000.
    15,000 are afraid of wizards. This leaves 5,000.
    4,000 are in the king's army, which is engaged elsewhere, fighting another war. This leaves 1,000.
    800 are hardened criminals, incarcerated for the society's protection. This leaves 200.
    170 are adventures, busy questing somewhere else. This leave 30.
    28, in order to fight a wizard, will require a fee way higher than can be managed.
    This leaves only 2 people - me and you. Or, rather, just you, because I'll be darned if I'll fight a wizard with you as my only backup. Good luck.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Just because you cannot possibly fathom a world in which magic is hard to come by, doesn't mean it won't exist.

    Don't assume the campaign happens in a world where there is a large number of wizards above the fifth level. The monster manual doesn't.

    There are several easy ways to limit the amount of spells a wizard can learn. It gets harder as the wizard gets more powerful, but the best measures are preventative measures.

    Magic can be regulated.
    Magic can be lost.
    Magic can be a new frontier.
    Wizardry can be illegal.
    Wizardry can only practiced amongst the nobility.
    Book burning is active.
    There is no writing system. Magic is passed down in the form of oral tradition.
    The countries are cut off by giant, permanant, prismatic walls that cut through the entire world making communication between many wizards impossible.
    The world is ruled by devils and/or demons.
    Each wizard develops magic differently with his own, unique signature, which makes it nigh impossible to translate.

    There. Easy. Done.


    This is not a martial versus caster discussion. the champion is not a caster. Do not oppose the champion brcause it is not a caster. It does its job. It is a martial class capable of fighting on par with other classes, and keep fighting the entire day, while excelling in physical challenges.

    If you want more options, play a caster. The champion is built to excel at what it does. If you disagree, why? It's not because it can't push a button and have a fireball shoot out.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    how about "don't present the fact that the champion has few tools to adapt as a strength".

    you want to argue that it's very simple? sure. I can't argue that. it's extremely simple.

    but you want to argue that a lack of options is a strength? no. it isn't. if you're really bad at making decisions, it's not the options that are weak, it's the person making the decisions. it's a classic PEBCAK error: Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard. good quality equipment being used by a bad operator doesn't make the equipment bad, it just means that it doesn't compensate for having a bad operator.

    and as it happens, I have plenty of experience playing wizards. in editions where you didn't get to prepare 25 different spells from your total list and swap between them as needed, even (it's a lot harder when you have to decide how many of each spell you have prepared, let me tell you). I don't always plan perfectly for every situation, but after the first few levels, I *do* have options that are broad enough to cover a variety of situations, and keep them handy. the only wizard I've ever made that struggled with options was a 2nd edition conjurer, and that was mostly because the wizard simply didn't have spells available to cover a major role (specifically, conjurers didn't get any evocation spells, and in 2nd edition that was extremely crippling... not just because I didn't get to cast fireball either. web, stinking cloud, shield... honestly, most of the cloud spells, most of the wall spells... yeah... I don't recommend making a 2nd edition conjurer. about the only thing I liked about it was that it got abjuration, which my typical choice of transmuter lacked, and honestly, even the summon spells were generally pretty awful in 2nd edition... except, of course, for the ones that aren't conjuration. illusion has some good ones. necromancy has some decent ones. heck, even evocation has some decent "no-really-it's-not-a-summoned monster" options if you use all of the spells they ever printed, as does alteration).

    and it's pretty simple. you get an idea of what you're up against... you do your best to scout with the resources available to you, you mostly pick general purpose spells, and you examine your options to figure out if there's something that will make a huge difference in a fight that's coming up. you don't keep gaze reflection constantly prepared (though if you're high enough level to make them, you do try to make your own scrolls), but you do have the option to drop a spell that will block LOS if a monster with a gaze attack shoes up. when necessary, you retreat from a fight that you underestimated, re-examine your options, and try a different plan. I've played with random encounters, slogging through dungeons, slogging through swamps (which in 2nd edition is worse than slogging through dungeons), battling everything from hordes of kobolds and orcs to tribes of giants to yuan-ti (with accompanying human cultists and tons of snakes), to drow, to legions of undead, to fighting a mixture of everything in gigantic battles. I've gone through puzzle dungeons and roleplaying scenarios. I've played in games where magic users are hunted, I've played in games where resources of any kind have been hard to come by (and man, does that ever make your life hard as a wizard in 2nd edition), and I've even played in campaigns where the main enemies were spellcasters (and as a result, at least common spells were very easy to come by. in my 2nd edition group, choosing a spellbook generally even counts as your "pick" from the magic items available because 2e spellbooks cost so much money (plus the cost of getting someone to teach it to you so that you can even put it in your spellbook in the first place), and I've even done it on a character that had a 50% gold donation (for the record... that is another thing I really don't recommend doing for a wizard in 2nd edition... you are probably *really* going to need that gold).

    most of the time, you don't need 40 different spells prepared to cover a broad spectrum of situations. as a wizard in 5e, you don't need every single one of your spells to be the perfect spell for the job. you just need several of them to be good spells for many jobs, and do your research and planning to round out the rest of your spell slots.

    so seriously... the only advantage to lack of options is simplicity. it's not really a strength of the class, it's just something that people will sometimes value more than strength for the class. please don't present it like it's some sort of beneficial thing to not have options. it isn't. options are stronger, so long as you don't completely screw them up.

    champions have some good things going for them. fewer options to choose from is not one of those things, except inasmuch as some people will choose simplicity over power because they're willing to sacrifice effectiveness for it.

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    OK, how about this? We have a dex-based fighter, who's wielding a lance, with a pike and a war pick as backup weapons. He doesn't have a rapier, because in this DM's world, rapiers are really rare: Only one weapon in 10,000 is a rapier, and the DM doesn't feel any need to coddle him. He doesn't have a bow, because he didn't think he would need one. He fights some enemies on the other side of a canyon, and then he goes up against some skeletons. Wow, I've just proved that the fighter's options are totally unreliable!

    Or, no I haven't, because all I've actually proven is that fighters are weak if you're idiotic about it. Which also goes for any other class.

    And yes, a wizard that goes into an ice dungeon with nothing but fire spells prepared is an idiot. Going into an ice dungeon is a good reason to prepare two or three fire spells, but there's no reason to prepare more than that. All the rest of your prepared spells will be non-fire spells, and probably most of them won't even be things that do damage at all. Sure, maybe at the end of the day you'll end up having used your slots mostly for fire spells, but you still have the option to use them for something else.

    For the enemy who escapes by diving into an underground river, the wizard at least has a chance to do something about it. Maybe it's by casting Water Breathing, if he does happen to have it prepared. Maybe it's by summoning some aquatic monster to chase down the enemy. Maybe it's by sealing off the exit to the river via a Wall of Stone. Maybe it's dispelling the enemy's Water Breathing. There's a pretty good chance that, if he's chosen his spells intelligently, he'll have something or another that can be brought to bear, there. Why, what does the fighter, with his supposedly always-reliable abilities, do in that situation?

    3) Fleeing from a large Giant, the party pulls around a corner and hides in a small cave. They tell the wizard to cast a Silent image like they have seen him do in the past. He tells them, but we were fighting a giant today, why would I have prepared a spell like that for this fight? Is he really an idiot for not seeing the party running into a tougher challenge and not having that specific spell prepared?
    Why would he have prepared Silent Image? Because it's a very useful spell, and can be put to good use in almost any situation. That's the kind of spells that wizards usually prepare, when they're not doing stupid things like choosing nothing but fire-damage spells. And if an intelligent wizard didn't prepare Silent Image, it's because he prepared some other general-purpose versatile spell instead, and he can just use that against the unexpected giant.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    how about "don't present the fact that the champion has few tools to adapt as a strength".
    I think the argument is more that "The Champion's numbers are higher, and in a game with an open skill system and versatile tools and background options, there is not ever a lack of ability for the Champion to contribute despite not having as many codified options and complexity as other classes."

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    For the enemy who escapes by diving into an underground river, the wizard at least has a chance to do something about it. Maybe it's by casting Water Breathing, if he does happen to have it prepared. Maybe it's by summoning some aquatic monster to chase down the enemy. Maybe it's by sealing off the exit to the river via a Wall of Stone. Maybe it's dispelling the enemy's Water Breathing. There's a pretty good chance that, if he's chosen his spells intelligently, he'll have something or another that can be brought to bear, there. Why, what does the fighter, with his supposedly always-reliable abilities, do in that situation?
    Hold his breath with his mighty Constitution, swim faster than his opponent with his mighty Strength, and beat the tar out of them before surfacing?
    Last edited by pwykersotz; 2015-02-16 at 10:44 PM.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by pwykersotz View Post
    I think the argument is more that "The Champion's numbers are higher, and in a game with an open skill system and versatile tools and background options, there is not ever a lack of ability for the Champion to contribute despite not having as many codified options and complexity as other classes."
    generally speaking, the champion's numbers are marginally higher, not by a huge amount, the open skill system is not particularly more available to them than any other class (and arguably less so than it is to the other 2 fighter paths, since battlemasters get a tool proficiency and eldritch knights at least have the option of using spells to support their skill use), backgrounds are equally available to everyone and are a strength of the system, not of the champion.

    if the champion got, like, +5 to hit, I'd totally say that was a powerful ability worth giving up many options within the context of 5th edition (as noted, in 2nd edition, it's a lot less potent at high levels, but still amazing at level 1). heck, to be perfectly honest, if their regeneration came online before having to spend 17 levels without any major advantages, I might say even that was worth giving up many options (as it stands, unless you're starting at level 18+ I really don't give a huge amount of weight to that ability... battlemaster maneuvers may scale like crap, but at least they don't have to wait until the campaign is over to even get access to them).

    but mostly, they just get a teensy bit more damage, an extra fighting style, and a slightly better bonus on initiative plus some skill checks that they didn't care enough to be proficient in in the first place for the first 17 levels. not impressed.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Whoever is saying that a wizard's ability to prepare spells means its adaptable, is just wrong. Sorry. Wizards need to prepare their spells, because they are the DnD versions of boy scouts. They need to prepare for everything. They cannot handle situations they have not prepared a spell for. The vast amount of spells a wizard is capable of learning allows them to prepare for many situations, but any encounter that falls outside of what they prepare for and they are worthless.


    To make this clear, that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of adaptability.
    Adaptability is not the same as versatility. Adaptability is the ability to change tactics to accomadate a situation.

    Is a champion versatile? No.
    Is he adaptable? Yes.

    Melee damage? Done.
    Ranged damage? Proficiency and archery give +8.
    Tanking? Some of the highest hitpoints and best armor in the game. Only health regen as a class feature.
    Sustained damage: improved critical
    Burst damage? Action surge
    Control? Grappling.
    Saves? Indomitable helps, and lucky/resilience can curb it nicely.
    7 ASIs, only 3-4 of which he'll want for str/dex and con, giving him half his feats to spend on whatever he wants.

    The champion can do all of those, and can do them well, whether he is prepared or not. To be competent in almost all types of combat is what defines a champion. In that way, yes, a champion Is more adaptable than a wizard in combat. In combat is where a champion's skills chiefly lie, but as mentioned time and time again, they can do perfectly well outside of combat due to remarkable athlete and feat support. In fact, that also makes the champion adaptable outside of combat as well, since any physical checks it gets half proficiency on. It simply is not where the champion's specialty lies.

    If you want a fighter type that can adapt to almost any combat situation, pick a champion.

    If you want to be a boyscout and prepare for every rainy day, be a wizard.

    None of this is counting ASIs. The fighter gets 7. It only needs 2. The other 5 can be spent on making the champion good at whatever he pleases.

    Increase Con, (or you could just take tough and call it a day)
    Infiltration
    Dungeoneering
    Mage killing
    Stealth
    Better tanking
    Resilience
    Tenser's floating disk, not just for casters.
    becoming sherlock holmes,
    Give temporary hitpoints,
    Become a know-it-all,
    Write hidden messages,
    Become quadlangual,
    Get some free AC or damage once a day

    2 bonus ASIs are kind of part an important part of the fighter class.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    generally speaking, the champion's numbers are marginally higher, not by a huge amount, the open skill system is not particularly more available to them than any other class (and arguably less so than it is to the other 2 fighter paths, since battlemasters get a tool proficiency and eldritch knights at least have the option of using spells to support their skill use), backgrounds are equally available to everyone and are a strength of the system, not of the champion.

    if the champion got, like, +5 to hit, I'd totally say that was a powerful ability worth giving up many options within the context of 5th edition (as noted, in 2nd edition, it's a lot less potent at high levels, but still amazing at level 1). heck, to be perfectly honest, if their regeneration came online before having to spend 17 levels without any major advantages, I might say even that was worth giving up many options (as it stands, unless you're starting at level 18+ I really don't give a huge amount of weight to that ability... battlemaster maneuvers may scale like crap, but at least they don't have to wait until the campaign is over to even get access to them).

    but mostly, they just get a teensy bit more damage, an extra fighting style, and a slightly better bonus on initiative plus some skill checks that they didn't care enough to be proficient in in the first place for the first 17 levels. not impressed.
    I think you're underplaying their strengths despite everything that's been gone over in this thread, but that's not really here nor there. The question is, is the champion a fully contributing member of the team. I've yet to see anything to indicate the answer is not a resounding 'Yes'.

    You may not be impressed, and honestly as someone who likes to fiddle with features, I'm marginally in agreement because they don't have the elements I personally consider the most fun. But I don't fear for my Champion player's ability to contribute, and having played a Dex Champion in Lost Mines, I can tell you I always felt like the strongest team member due to my significantly higher accuracy, AC, and single-target damage, and that was stacked next to the Wizard and Cleric.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Only one weapon in 10,000 is a rapier, and the DM doesn't feel any need to coddle him.
    Are you suggesting that anything less than spoon feeding the Wizard all of the spells on his list is somehow doing the Wizard a disservice? Where did you generate this idea, and why do you think it's a remotely valid concept?
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Wait, significantly higher accuracy? How did you manage that? Aside from auto-hitting on crits, the champion gets exactly as much accuracy as everyone else. And if you're facing opponents with AC so high that auto-hitting on crits is relevant, then you'd really rather be targeting a saving throw instead of AC anyway.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Wait, significantly higher accuracy? How did you manage that? Aside from auto-hitting on crits, the champion gets exactly as much accuracy as everyone else. And if you're facing opponents with AC so high that auto-hitting on crits is relevant, then you'd really rather be targeting a saving throw instead of AC anyway.
    It has been my experience that targeting a save throw is only a problem for the target for a round or two at best before they make the next one. It seems you are far more likely to succeed by hitting it and inflicting damage instead.

    The 3.5 mentality of caster supremacy is over.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Wait, significantly higher accuracy? How did you manage that? Aside from auto-hitting on crits, the champion gets exactly as much accuracy as everyone else. And if you're facing opponents with AC so high that auto-hitting on crits is relevant, then you'd really rather be targeting a saving throw instead of AC anyway.
    Hmmm... If a monster has high AC I wonder what you could expect their saves to be.

    As a tempest cleric I would rather force a Dex Save (make it use up its legendary save if it has any) then go after a wis save. Hit it with a Hold Monster spell... DC 19? Yeah... Creature is giving up crits every round no matter the attack roll.

    We are assuming big bad boss right?

    Before that, I tend to play clerics either with the help action (to give said fighter advantage), Cantrip, or low level spells. Not to mention melee, I do love polearm+sentinal in a cleric build.

    They may have been nerfed but clerics can still go all zilla.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Hmmm... If a monster has high AC I wonder what you could expect their saves to be.
    Depends on the monster. If it's just a low-level schmuck wearing full plate and a shield, then probably even their strong saves will be easier than their AC. If they have high AC because they're high level, then their proficient saves will probably also be pretty good, but most things still have nonproficient saves, too. So you just have to try to guess what any given foe's weak saves will be, and then use the spells which target that save. Which usually isn't too hard.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Depends on the monster. If it's just a low-level schmuck wearing full plate and a shield, then probably even their strong saves will be easier than their AC. If they have high AC because they're high level, then their proficient saves will probably also be pretty good, but most things still have nonproficient saves, too. So you just have to try to guess what any given foe's weak saves will be, and then use the spells which target that save. Which usually isn't too hard.
    I was thinking averages among high CR.

    The red dragon has an AC of 19 and a Dex Save of +0 and a WIS save of +1. Seems a bit exploitable.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Even on its crap saves you still have to throw like 6 spells at it just to drain its legendary resists. If you try to drain its saves with crap spells a canny DM woulld probably forego using its legendary save occasionally.

    an open hand monk could keep kicking it prone though which is kind of hilarious.
    Last edited by TheDeadlyShoe; 2015-02-17 at 01:53 PM.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadlyShoe View Post
    Even on its crap saves you still have to throw like 6 spells at it just to drain its legendary resists. If you try to drain its saves with crap spells a canny DM woulld probably forego using its legendary save occasionally.

    an open hand monk could keep kicking it prone though which is kind of hilarious.
    3, last I saw monsters get 3 legendary saves. Which is one, maybe 2 rounds. There are some nasty spells a cleric or other caster can cast easily enough to blow through them. You could spam hold monster in your 5th level slot then use higher level slots for it. The dragon either saves or paralyzed. Chances of saving normally are slim...

    Monks are quite adept at choosing a target and taking them out via stun. But using stunning fist is essentially using a spell and the monk replaces the cleric and not the fighter in this example.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Osrogue View Post
    Whoever is saying that a wizard's ability to prepare spells means its adaptable, is just wrong. Sorry. Wizards need to prepare their spells, because they are the DnD versions of boy scouts. They need to prepare for everything. They cannot handle situations they have not prepared a spell for. The vast amount of spells a wizard is capable of learning allows them to prepare for many situations, but any encounter that falls outside of what they prepare for and they are worthless.


    To make this clear, that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of adaptability.
    Adaptability is not the same as versatility. Adaptability is the ability to change tactics to accomadate a situation.

    Is a champion versatile? No.
    Is he adaptable? Yes.

    Melee damage? Done.
    Ranged damage? Proficiency and archery give +8.
    Tanking? Some of the highest hitpoints and best armor in the game. Only health regen as a class feature.
    Sustained damage: improved critical
    Burst damage? Action surge
    Control? Grappling.
    Saves? Indomitable helps, and lucky/resilience can curb it nicely.
    7 ASIs, only 3-4 of which he'll want for str/dex and con, giving him half his feats to spend on whatever he wants.

    The champion can do all of those, and can do them well, whether he is prepared or not. To be competent in almost all types of combat is what defines a champion. In that way, yes, a champion Is more adaptable than a wizard in combat. In combat is where a champion's skills chiefly lie, but as mentioned time and time again, they can do perfectly well outside of combat due to remarkable athlete and feat support. In fact, that also makes the champion adaptable outside of combat as well, since any physical checks it gets half proficiency on. It simply is not where the champion's specialty lies.

    If you want a fighter type that can adapt to almost any combat situation, pick a champion.

    If you want to be a boyscout and prepare for every rainy day, be a wizard.

    None of this is counting ASIs. The fighter gets 7. It only needs 2. The other 5 can be spent on making the champion good at whatever he pleases.

    Increase Con, (or you could just take tough and call it a day)
    Infiltration
    Dungeoneering
    Mage killing
    Stealth
    Better tanking
    Resilience
    Tenser's floating disk, not just for casters.
    becoming sherlock holmes,
    Give temporary hitpoints,
    Become a know-it-all,
    Write hidden messages,
    Become quadlangual,
    Get some free AC or damage once a day

    2 bonus ASIs are kind of part an important part of the fighter class.
    ok. wizards get several cantrips (and the option to add to it with magic initiate, if so desired, though obviously that comes out of their available feats) and can target multiple defenses and deal multiple damage types with their most basic abilities, as well as providing some basic utility. then they have anywhere from ~4-29 different spells they can choose from that cost resources, depending on level. your fighter has, as i count it, 5 feats. can your fighter cover as much ground with those 5 feats as the wizard can cover with 3 feats and 29 spells? personally, i'm inclined to speculate that you can't. and tomorrow, most of those spells can change (the exception being the two chosen at level 20, and realistically they aren't a concern for most of your adventuring career anyways). but hey, some of those are covering combat options... perhaps even as many as half of them. but i still can probably have more solutions available for common problems than your champion can by spending those 5 feat/ASI options however they like (note: the wizard has 3 of those to spend also, so it isn't like they're massively behind on that front either). and of course, this is before discussing school abilities as well, some of which can cover an incredible variety of situations.

    now, i don't know why you would define adaptable as not changing in the slightest, considering that adapting basically means making changes, but by your definition, i'm pretty sure the wizard is both more adaptable *and* more versatile. the wizard has more options, and those options can change on a daily basis for the most part.

    champion is not completely useless in 5e like the fighter was in 3.x when compared to casters, but that's not the same thing as saying it's great. i'd hesitate to even call it good, let alone great, until it gets regeneration, by which time the campaign is pretty much over anyways.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    then they have anywhere from ~4-29 different spells they can choose from that cost resources, depending on level. your fighter has, as i count it, 5 feats. can your fighter cover as much ground with those 5 feats as the wizard can cover with 3 feats and 29 spells?
    This more accurately needs to be listed as the spells they prepared. Which if I'm correct, [I'm AFB] is (1/2 level + Int Mod) or 4 - 15 spells. Discounting cantrips of course, which are no more or less effective than actually striking an opponent with a weapon at terrible range.

    EDIT---

    Of course I could be confusing myself by thinking about Arcane Recovery too. It's always a possibility. Which would make it (Wiz Level + Int Mod) or 4 - 25 spells.
    Last edited by Fwiffo86; 2015-02-17 at 04:54 PM.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    1 per level plus intelligence mod. plus 2 at level 18 (technically those two at-will spells don't count as prepared also, but you probably had at least one spell to use those slots up that you weren't planning on scaling anyways, so it's like knowing more spells), plus 2 at level 20 (which iirc *do* explicitly count as prepared in addition to letting you cast them 1/short rest, and with some spell-ish abilities granted in certain archetypes.

    and, depending on archetype, your cantrips actually are pretty close to ranged damage (though not quite up to par with melee damage), though of course it will depend on the target's defenses (some creatures have high AC values and incredibly low dex saves, for example, which may actually lead to evocation wizards having better cantrip damage purely because the fighter has to hit such a high AC... and of course you have to account for damage vulnerabilities and resistances, which means certain enemies can swing the argument one way or the other)

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    1 per level plus intelligence mod. plus 2 at level 18 (technically those two at-will spells don't count as prepared also, but you probably had at least one spell to use those slots up that you weren't planning on scaling anyways, so it's like knowing more spells), plus 2 at level 20 (which iirc *do* explicitly count as prepared in addition to letting you cast them 1/short rest, and with some spell-ish abilities granted in certain archetypes.

    and, depending on archetype, your cantrips actually are pretty close to ranged damage (though not quite up to par with melee damage), though of course it will depend on the target's defenses (some creatures have high AC values and incredibly low dex saves, for example, which may actually lead to evocation wizards having better cantrip damage purely because the fighter has to hit such a high AC... and of course you have to account for damage vulnerabilities and resistances, which means certain enemies can swing the argument one way or the other)
    Agreed. My thought is that with it (cantrips) being like that, they really are no more or less effective than actually just clubbing something to death. It depends on the monster and the damage is comparable easily.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86 View Post
    This more accurately needs to be listed as the spells they prepared. Which if I'm correct, [I'm AFB] is (1/2 level + Int Mod) or 4 - 15 spells. Discounting cantrips of course, which are no more or less effective than actually striking an opponent with a weapon at terrible range.

    EDIT---

    Of course I could be confusing myself by thinking about Arcane Recovery too. It's always a possibility. Which would make it (Wiz Level + Int Mod) or 4 - 25 spells.
    Its Wiz level + Int mod (min 1)
    So they could technically have 1 spell prepared a day, but that would be a very poor wizard (and only at lvl 1-5 Wizard (Note they have to have - mod for 2-5 to get 1 spell))

    At max they do get 25 spells prepared, but they will have to choose from a minimum of 6+19x2 or 44 spells in their book. So assuming they when they created their book and put money into it to add spells they felt all of those spells were important for some reason, they still have about a 45% chance of not having the spell that is important. Also, if they use a higher level spell and then need that slot for another spell they are screwed (so is any other caster though).

    So they have to do the following
    1) Choose to put the spell into their book
    2) Prepare the spell for the day
    3) Have all the Material Components for the spell (Not as hard as it seems but sometimes players forget (Counting items above 1 gp))
    4) Have Not cast all the slots equal to and higher than the spell at its needed level (Like Fly is only useful if you have the slot open at a level that all the people you wish to use it on can be covered in one casting).
    Last edited by hawklost; 2015-02-17 at 05:05 PM.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    ok. wizards get several cantrips (and the option to add to it with magic initiate, if so desired, though obviously that comes out of their available feats) and can target multiple defenses and deal multiple damage types with their most basic abilities, as well as providing some basic utility. then they have anywhere from ~4-29 different spells they can choose from that cost resources, depending on level. your fighter has, as i count it, 5 feats. can your fighter cover as much ground with those 5 feats as the wizard can cover with 3 feats and 29 spells? personally, i'm inclined to speculate that you can't. and tomorrow, most of those spells can change (the exception being the two chosen at level 20, and realistically they aren't a concern for most of your adventuring career anyways). but hey, some of those are covering combat options... perhaps even as many as half of them. but i still can probably have more solutions available for common problems than your champion can by spending those 5 feat/ASI options however they like (note: the wizard has 3 of those to spend also, so it isn't like they're massively behind on that front either). and of course, this is before discussing school abilities as well, some of which can cover an incredible variety of situations.

    now, i don't know why you would define adaptable as not changing in the slightest, considering that adapting basically means making changes, but by your definition, i'm pretty sure the wizard is both more adaptable *and* more versatile. the wizard has more options, and those options can change on a daily basis for the most part.

    champion is not completely useless in 5e like the fighter was in 3.x when compared to casters, but that's not the same thing as saying it's great. i'd hesitate to even call it good, let alone great, until it gets regeneration, by which time the campaign is pretty much over anyways.
    Yeah, that's nice. Wizards have lots of spells. They are very versatile.

    Now. Definition of adaptable:
    able to adjust to new conditions.

    Literally the first thing you find when you type adaptable into google.

    Can a wizard can prepare their spell list so that they can answer a variety of situations? Yes.
    Can a wizard change his spells when he needs something he currently does not have prepared? No.

    So if any situation occurs outside of which the wizard has not made the proper preparations for, can they adapt to it?

    No. They cannot change their spells to fit any situation at hand. They must anticipate the situations they expect to encounter over the course of the day.

    Champions are combat specialists. Outside of combat, they are not useless, but they are less effective than they are in combat.

    In combat, they can take on any role they need at a moment's notice, making them adaptable in combat. (You seem to be missing the in combat part I add to the end of most of these sentences.)

    Wizards, by the very way the class is designed, cannot be adaptable. A wizard either has a spell, or it doesn't. There is no middle ground.

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Osrogue View Post
    Champions are combat specialists. Outside of combat, they are not useless, but they are less effective than they are in combat.

    In combat, they can take on any role they need at a moment's notice, making them adaptable in combat. (You seem to be missing the in combat part I add to the end of most of these sentences.)

    Wizards, by the very way the class is designed, cannot be adaptable. A wizard either has a spell, or it doesn't. There is no middle ground.
    A wizard has more spell choices than the TOTAL available combat actions of a Champion Fighter.

    By far.

    If the fighter is adaptable because he can choose whether to attack, or use a skill, or attack, or shove, or attack or trip, or attack, then compare with a Wizard with ONLY 29 different spells to choose from (25 prepared, plus the extras from his level 18, 19, and 20 special powers), plus his cantrips, plus his skills is far more adaptable.

    Having multiple choices is being adaptable, a wizard even with only "limited" spells prepared is far more adaptable than a fighter.

    And that's NOT including the fact that many spells can be used for multiple things, polymorph can be a utility spell, or an attack spell. Summons can be used for attack, defense, or utility (or several of these at once). Teleport can be used for transportation or escape.

    Really, this is one of those arguments where the advocates for one side are doing a WONDERFUL job of convincing me the other side is correct. Bigger numbers can be enough for a class (that's really all the perfectly adequate 2nd ed. fighter had going for it), and the Champion has bigger numbers. But all the claims about "wizards aren't overpowered if you never ever under any circumstance let them find a spell or meet another wizard (hostile or friendly) and if every NPC in the world wants to kill them on sight" and "wizards aren't versatile at all because they can only choose from slightly weaker versions of everything a fighter can do plus a really long list of very powerful other stuff whereas the extremely versatile fighter can do anything he can do at any time".

    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Haruki-kun; 2015-02-18 at 12:09 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Osrogue View Post
    Yeah, that's nice. Wizards have lots of spells. They are very versatile.

    Now. Definition of adaptable:
    able to adjust to new conditions.

    Literally the first thing you find when you type adaptable into google.

    Can a wizard can prepare their spell list so that they can answer a variety of situations? Yes.
    Can a wizard change his spells when he needs something he currently does not have prepared? No.

    So if any situation occurs outside of which the wizard has not made the proper preparations for, can they adapt to it?

    No. They cannot change their spells to fit any situation at hand. They must anticipate the situations they expect to encounter over the course of the day.

    Champions are combat specialists. Outside of combat, they are not useless, but they are less effective than they are in combat.

    In combat, they can take on any role they need at a moment's notice, making them adaptable in combat. (You seem to be missing the in combat part I add to the end of most of these sentences.)

    Wizards, by the very way the class is designed, cannot be adaptable. A wizard either has a spell, or it doesn't. There is no middle ground.
    the wizard has more options at any one time than the fighter does. it doesn't matter if the wizard can't do every single trick they know at a moment's notice. they have more tricks at any one time than the fighter does. they not only know more powers, they also have more prepared.

    the champion has advantages. being more versatile than anything else is not one of them.

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    The wizard can change most of his options; it just takes him a day to do it. The fighter can't do that, at all. And even on a short-term basis, just as the fighter can choose whether to attack, shove, grapple, or use a skill, the wizard can choose between the spells she has prepared.

    Just how many options do you think each class has, anyway? The way I see it, a fighter has five options usable in combat: He can attack, shove, grapple, hide, or flee. And out of combat, he has perhaps as many as five options: Two skills from the fighter class, two from his background, and perhaps one useful tool from his background.

    The wizard, meanwhile, has some of those same options, and also has spells. Let's say that she picked two cantrips and one spell prepared for out-of-combat utility. That leaves her with with six options in combat: She can use her cantrip, or any of her other three prepared spells, or she can hide or flee. And out of combat, she has the same number of skills and tools as the fighter, plus her other two cantrips, her fourth prepared spell, and perhaps a ritual or two, for about nine options.

    Both in combat and out of it, the wizard has more options than the fighter does. And that's just at first level. When you get to higher levels, the number of options available to the fighter doesn't increase appreciably, but the wizard starts getting specialization options at level 2, one or more new prepared spells each level, more rituals in her book, and two more cantrips.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    the wizard has more options at any one time than the fighter does. it doesn't matter if the wizard can't do every single trick they know at a moment's notice. they have more tricks at any one time than the fighter does. they not only know more powers, they also have more prepared.

    the champion has advantages. being more versatile than anything else is not one of them.
    let me put it to you this way.

    I NEVER SAID CHAMPIONS ARE MORE VERSATILE THAN WIZARDS.

    I NEVER SAID CHAMPIONS ARE MORE VERSATILE THAN WIZARDS.

    I NEVER SAID CHAMPIONS ARE MORE VERSATILE THAN WIZARDS.

    What champion has, is all of its options available to it at any given time. Those options allow it to perform most roles in combat at a moment's notice.

    Now, since for some reason, people keep on missing this,
    in combat. They are combat specialists. This means they are best in combat and are significantly worse out of combat.


    Wizards are not very adaptable. Sorcerers are adaptable. Sorcerers are able to modify their toolset on the fly in order to fit the situation at hand. Sorcerers are more adaptable than champion fighters and less versatile than wizards.

    Why? Sorcerers have a smaller toolbelt than wizards, but they are able to modify their spells to fit a situation. The ability to change according to the needs of a situation is adaptability. Wizards cannot change their spells after they have chosen them at the beginning of the day. Nor may they modify them with metamagic.


    Wizards are not adaptable. Adaptability is reactive. Preparation is proactive. The ability to save yourself from a high fall, because you have a contingency for saving yourself from a fall is different from saving yourself from a fall when you didn't prepare featherfall in the morning. I swaer, if someone mentions that only an idiot wouldn't prepare featherfall in the morning, for some reason, I am going to jump off a cliff. It's an example. A wizard cannot tailor its spells to a sudden change in a situation. It either was open to the possiblity of needing featherfall for the day or it isn't and prepared its spell list accordingly.

    If you need help figuring out the difference between versatility and adaptability, or at least the definitions I assume we have been using:

    Versatility:
    having or capable of many uses:
    a versatile tool.

    Adaptability: able to adjust to new conditions.

    Now, once more.

    Champions are NOT versatile. They are able to function in many roles in combat at any given time.

    Wizards are NOT able to change their toolset for the day when they come across something they have not prepared a spell for. They are versatile, so they can prepare a spell for very many situations. Emphasis on the word prepare. If you have prepared for an eventuality, you are not adapting to the eventuality.

    Please stop insinuating that I have said champions are more versatile than wizards, or that champions' area of expertise is anywhere outside of combat.

    Now I want to stop sounding like a broken record, so I implore you to quit arguing with a view that nobody has had so far.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy_Lee View Post
    He means that it encourages and allows for a high amount of role playing, which is demonstrably true. RP is as much a part of the game as anything else.

    Bonus crit chance encourages the champion to use shove or find other ways to get advantage. The extra fighting style encourages the champion to explore multiple combat roles and styles.

    And, of course, remarkable athlete encourages the champion to really keep an eye out for strength, con, and Dex checks, or anything that can be construed as one. As the old saying goes, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
    I agree there is some truth in the idea that the champion's simplicity encourages a player to add more roleplaying, or look for other actions to use, to keep it interesting. You can think more about how to describe your hits etc because you dont have as many activated abilities to worry about.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Psikerlord View Post
    I agree there is some truth in the idea that the champion's simplicity encourages a player to add more roleplaying, or look for other actions to use, to keep it interesting. You can think more about how to describe your hits etc because you dont have as many activated abilities to worry about.
    When you are bored out of your mind I guess you need to do something to make sure you are having fun.

    But you can get bored with any PC depending on DM, other players, or whatever you personally are like.

    Roleplaying shouldn't be something you are pushed or forced into because your class is lacking. That's just bad game design, especially for a game where its assumed you will be roleplaying to begin with.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Osrogue View Post
    let me put it to you this way.

    I NEVER SAID CHAMPIONS ARE MORE VERSATILE THAN WIZARDS.

    I NEVER SAID CHAMPIONS ARE MORE VERSATILE THAN WIZARDS.

    I NEVER SAID CHAMPIONS ARE MORE VERSATILE THAN WIZARDS.

    What champion has, is all of its options available to it at any given time. Those options allow it to perform most roles in combat at a moment's notice.

    Now, since for some reason, people keep on missing this,
    in combat. They are combat specialists. This means they are best in combat and are significantly worse out of combat.


    Wizards are not very adaptable. Sorcerers are adaptable. Sorcerers are able to modify their toolset on the fly in order to fit the situation at hand. Sorcerers are more adaptable than champion fighters and less versatile than wizards.

    Why? Sorcerers have a smaller toolbelt than wizards, but they are able to modify their spells to fit a situation. The ability to change according to the needs of a situation is adaptability. Wizards cannot change their spells after they have chosen them at the beginning of the day. Nor may they modify them with metamagic.


    Wizards are not adaptable. Adaptability is reactive. Preparation is proactive. The ability to save yourself from a high fall, because you have a contingency for saving yourself from a fall is different from saving yourself from a fall when you didn't prepare featherfall in the morning. I swaer, if someone mentions that only an idiot wouldn't prepare featherfall in the morning, for some reason, I am going to jump off a cliff. It's an example. A wizard cannot tailor its spells to a sudden change in a situation. It either was open to the possiblity of needing featherfall for the day or it isn't and prepared its spell list accordingly.

    If you need help figuring out the difference between versatility and adaptability, or at least the definitions I assume we have been using:

    Versatility:
    having or capable of many uses:
    a versatile tool.

    Adaptability: able to adjust to new conditions.

    Now, once more.

    Champions are NOT versatile. They are able to function in many roles in combat at any given time.

    Wizards are NOT able to change their toolset for the day when they come across something they have not prepared a spell for. They are versatile, so they can prepare a spell for very many situations. Emphasis on the word prepare. If you have prepared for an eventuality, you are not adapting to the eventuality.

    Please stop insinuating that I have said champions are more versatile than wizards, or that champions' area of expertise is anywhere outside of combat.

    Now I want to stop sounding like a broken record, so I implore you to quit arguing with a view that nobody has had so far.
    your claim to the champion's in-combat "adaptability" is the list of options they have to choose from to react to different situations. wizards have a bigger list PREPARED than your champion is capable of even having. not in their spellbook (although ritual spells should also count towards general options, if not combat options). prepared. at one time. all available to choose from at any given time.

    many of those individual options can even be adapted for use in different ways. a wall of stone can be a bridge to walk across, a barrier to take cover from enemy arrows, a barricade that lets you fight an encounter one half at a time, a delaying tactic that allows you to escape, a hiding place for the party, a way to prevent an enemy from escaping and alerting their friends to your presence, and so on. wizards have whatever bizarro-world version of adaptability you are claiming for the champion because of the number of spells they are capable of preparing at any one time, and would have that even if they didn't have their spellbook within a million miles of them. the same can be said for clerics and druids, who don't have any spellbooks, but the fact that they *can* change their spells on a daily basis does not mean that they are completely dependant on that ability at all times.

    take away the wizard's spellbook, burn it, and burn every single other copy of every single spell in existence, and the wizard STILL has more options than the champion. heck, not only is the champion less "adaptable" than the wizard, it's less "adaptable" by your definition than both of the other fighter archetypes, which both also have more options available to them at any given time.

    champions have some good things. their ability to crit more often can synergize extremely well with certain multiclass builds, for example; rogues, barbarians (especially half-orc barbarians), and paladins all love to get critical hits and can take exceptional advantage of them, and for that reason if a third level of fighter is being contemplated by members of those classes, i would generally point them towards champion because of that.

    but you really need to recognize the advantages that champion actually has, and stop claiming that the champion has advantages which it doesn't have. if you want to point to a martial class that has a lot of your version of adaptability, you probably want to point to the rogue. or the monk. heck, even the ranger.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    your claim to the champion's in-combat "adaptability" is the list of options they have to choose from to react to different situations. wizards have a bigger list PREPARED than your champion is capable of even having. not in their spellbook (although ritual spells should also count towards general options, if not combat options). prepared. at one time. all available to choose from at any given time.

    many of those individual options can even be adapted for use in different ways. a wall of stone can be a bridge to walk across, a barrier to take cover from enemy arrows, a barricade that lets you fight an encounter one half at a time, a delaying tactic that allows you to escape, a hiding place for the party, a way to prevent an enemy from escaping and alerting their friends to your presence, and so on. wizards have whatever bizarro-world version of adaptability you are claiming for the champion because of the number of spells they are capable of preparing at any one time, and would have that even if they didn't have their spellbook within a million miles of them. the same can be said for clerics and druids, who don't have any spellbooks, but the fact that they *can* change their spells on a daily basis does not mean that they are completely dependant on that ability at all times.

    take away the wizard's spellbook, burn it, and burn every single other copy of every single spell in existence, and the wizard STILL has more options than the champion. heck, not only is the champion less "adaptable" than the wizard, it's less "adaptable" by your definition than both of the other fighter archetypes, which both also have more options available to them at any given time.

    champions have some good things. their ability to crit more often can synergize extremely well with certain multiclass builds, for example; rogues, barbarians (especially half-orc barbarians), and paladins all love to get critical hits and can take exceptional advantage of them, and for that reason if a third level of fighter is being contemplated by members of those classes, i would generally point them towards champion because of that.

    but you really need to recognize the advantages that champion actually has, and stop claiming that the champion has advantages which it doesn't have. if you want to point to a martial class that has a lot of your version of adaptability, you probably want to point to the rogue. or the monk. heck, even the ranger.
    First, I don't like champions. I actually hate them. I dislike fighters in general. I think they're boring. I Didn't choose my username out of hat, you know. I perfer rogues, sorcerers, and paladins. I just don't think that they are as bad as people think. They are effective, if simple martial fighters capable of fulfilling just about any role one could expect of a fighter for an entire day. Since fighters get extra feats, the champion can go beyond this and become skilled in areas one wouldn't normally expect of them, and have those options available to them whenever the situation calls for it.

    2 fighting styles
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    Regeneration
    Bonus feats

    By the definition I gave, adaptability is the ability to change according to a situation. Champions can specifically do this in combat. The champion can tank, nova, go melee or ranged with relative ease with just about any weapon they find. They get half proficiency with all physical skills. This gives them the tools they need to do what they need to in a scrap. Champions don't need to plan its class features. It has them , and when it needs them, it uses them. Its class features allow it to fill a wide variety of rolls in combat. The ability to shift between these rolls on the fly gives it the ability to adapt to what the combat needs, be it a tank or an archer.

    Adaptability is not the number of options. It is the ability to change when change is needed. The defenitions I gave I pulled straight from the dictionary, so you can stop assigning possessives to it as if I'm in my own little reality. If I wanted to, I could point out the fact that I began my first rebuttal mentioning that the champion isn't versatile. It has a limited set of options always available to it, and yet you keep reminding me that a wizard has more options as if it is news to me. You seem to think I believe the champion can do many things. I mentioned time and time again he only really excels in combat.

    Please note, once again that adaptability of the champion only extends as far as combat, and distinctly refers to his ability to assume a variety of roles with base competence even if those are not the roles the champion normally performs.

    This isn't some weird martial wizard pissing contest. A wizard has many more options available to it. A wizard is more powerful than it. A wizard is probably more fun to play than it. A wizard is literally unable to change its spells over the course of a day. And no, cantrips alone are generally inferior to what any other well built class can do. i'd welcome you to try it out though, but I have a feeling that if you played a wizard with only cantrips, you would probably eat that comment. Then again, you could be exaggerating. It's really hard to tell sometimes.


    Wizards are versatile. They are incredibly versatile. They are so versatile. I never argued they weren't. I never argued that champions were. I never argued that champions are better. Can a wizard change the spells it has selected in a day? No. So if a wizard does not have a spell that works for the situation, let's just call it a rakshasa, can the wizard change spells to accomodate the new threat? No, because it's a rakshasa and it can just say no, but that's not the point. The point is that the wizard, if it runs into a situation it doesn't have an answer for, cannot suddenly, in the middle of the day get new spells. This is the wizard's only real weakness outside of squishiness (that and the need for careful resource management.) wizards are flexible, wizards are versatile, wizards are powerful, but no wizard can change their spells out at the drop of a hat if what they have isn't working. Will that happen often? Not if the wizard is a good wizard. for some reason you think the inability to change out your spells over the course of the day is such a terrible thing. It isn't. It's still a thing.

    It is part of the spellcasting class feature that a wizard cannot change out his spells in the middle of the day. Is this not how a wizard works? Please, educate me. Obviously I know nothing on how basic mechanics of magic work.



    Tl;dr

    Champions and wizards are both boring in my opinion.
    Champions are all around combatants.
    Wizards cannot change the spells they prepare over the course of the day. it's a class feature.
    #of options does not equal ability to change.

    Champion<<<Wizard has never been disputed.
    Sharkforce, read the entire post before responding.

    Sorry that I'm not the best with words. Reading what I'm actually saying helps though. I'll do my best to coear away the clutter.

    All I've claimed, if you really looked at it, or at leadt as I've meant it, is that champions are good at all types of fighting and can shift between the roles easily, and vancian magic (or vancianesque?) is kind of inflexible when you think about how the spell you cast 50 times before isn't available to you because you were hungry and decided to spend a slot on conjure light snack instead.

    You've claimed, Champions are worse than wizards. I completely agree, and I hate them both equally.

    You keep claiming that wizards are, by the definition I gave, adaptable and versatile.

    Wizards by one definition, are adaptable because they have a lot of options in which adaptability essentially means versatility.

    By the definition I gave for reference, which means the ability to change or adjust, no, because wizards can't change or adjust their spells aside from casting them at different levels without a significant time investment.

    Anyway, I'm done. If you have a reason to believe champions are not good at fighting, I will happily discuss that with you.
    I'm done comparing wizard and champion class features in such a way that apparently is so obtuse you think I'm claiming the superiority and versatility of the champion class.

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