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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    A wizard has more spell choices than the TOTAL available combat actions of a Champion Fighter.

    By far.

    If the fighter is adaptable because he can choose whether to attack, or use a skill, or attack, or shove, or attack or trip, or attack, then compare with a Wizard with ONLY 29 different spells to choose from (25 prepared, plus the extras from his level 18, 19, and 20 special powers), plus his cantrips, plus his skills is far more adaptable.
    Not more adaptable, because of the way spells are codified. The wizard is however a lot more versatile (given the "right" array of spells). The champion is adaptable in the scope of combat, and a limited set of circumstances outside of combat where the player has chosen to be proficient (based on ASI's/feats/backgrounds/etc). All things equal, the champion will have bigger numbers and/or more feats. Furthermore, because of this, the champion should be the target of choice for buffs as they will generally be making the most out of them.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    But the wizard can adapt. She can change according to changes in her environment, just by changing which of her prepared spells she's casting.

    Is it just the fact that the wizard can't prepare all of the spells in her book that makes her "unadaptable"? Then consider a houseruled wizard, whose spellbook only contains a number of spells equal to her level plus Int mod. This houseruled wizard would, in fact, have all of her options available to her at all times. Would this make her adaptable in the same way as the fighter? But such a wizard is absolutely worse than the standard by-the-rules wizard. Surely, a wizard with an extra restriction can't be more adaptable than the same wizard without that restriction?
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Again, the number of spells available (prepared spells) to the wizard and the broad applicability of some of those spells speak to the versatility of the wizard. The class is however not very adaptable: outside of the daily choices of spells the class offers little. The champion fighter is highly adaptable in a narrow scope of work, but not that versatile: outside of combat vs enemies that are harmed with the weapons at hand the fighter will be challenged to contribute. Rogues and Bards (for example) tend to be both adaptable and versatile.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    When you are bored out of your mind I guess you need to do something to make sure you are having fun.

    But you can get bored with any PC depending on DM, other players, or whatever you personally are like.

    Roleplaying shouldn't be something you are pushed or forced into because your class is lacking. That's just bad game design, especially for a game where its assumed you will be roleplaying to begin with.
    It's also bad form to judge a class as bad because someone individually doesn't like how it is built. Opinions are based on personal preference.

    Wizard Adaptability....

    I recall reading a rule that states the Wizard does NOT have to prepare all of their spells at one time. They can leave some prepare slots unused to be filled during a short rest later in the day. Is this correct? I'm AFB. This gives some level of adaptability, but it is not in combat adaptability. It still requires time the party may or may not have.
    Last edited by Fwiffo86; 2015-02-18 at 09:40 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86 View Post
    It's also bad form to judge a class as bad because someone individually doesn't like how it is built. Opinions are based on personal preference.

    Wizard Adaptability....

    I recall reading a rule that states the Wizard does NOT have to prepare all of their spells at one time. They can leave some prepare slots unused to be filled during a short rest later in the day. Is this correct? I'm AFB. This gives some level of adaptability, but it is not in combat adaptability. It still requires time the party may or may not have.
    It isn't a rule, per say, but there doesn't appear a restriction for it the section on preparing spells, just that wizards get their slots back after sleeping and each spell takes time to memorize. That's... Interesting. It would still only work if the wizard was able to spend some time in a nice secluded area for several minutes to an hour, but that is more than I thought it originally could do.


    As for the caster versatility thing, sorry. I honestly wasn't expecting to derail the topic.
    Last edited by Osrogue; 2015-02-18 at 10:00 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendol View Post
    Again, the number of spells available (prepared spells) to the wizard and the broad applicability of some of those spells speak to the versatility of the wizard. The class is however not very adaptable: outside of the daily choices of spells the class offers little. The champion fighter is highly adaptable in a narrow scope of work, but not that versatile: outside of combat vs enemies that are harmed with the weapons at hand the fighter will be challenged to contribute. Rogues and Bards (for example) tend to be both adaptable and versatile.
    except that wizards can cover broad categories of abilities with some spells. I already pointed out above how you can "adapt" to different situations using just a single spell (wall of stone) in the wizard arsenal. the wizard (or other prepared caster). the wizard has more tools to use, and can use those tools in a variety of ways. for example, your rakshasa does not have any special defense agains spells that are not targeting it. so, for example, a spell that grants a wizard one or more minions can readily provide the means for a wizard to deal with a rakshasa. that same spell can most likely be used to summon several different types of minions, each of which has a different set of abilities they can choose from. hey look, the wizard can adapt to combat situations, kinda like the champion can, except better because the champion can't decide to put a whole bunch of kobolds to sleep with no save, or plant a wall in the middle of the field, or offer any form of crowd control that lasts longer than they spend actions and are standing next to an enemy, and so forth.

    wizard has more options. those options can be used in a variety of ways, not just collectively, but in many cases individually also. if the champion has adaptability, so does the wizard. it doesn't matter that the wizard's spell list, once prepared, is basically set for the day. the wizard is, if anything, *more* capable of changing their strategies to deal with situations they didn't necessarily expect to come across, because more options does that for you.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    except that wizards can cover broad categories of abilities with some spells. I already pointed out above how you can "adapt" to different situations using just a single spell (wall of stone) in the wizard arsenal. the wizard (or other prepared caster). the wizard has more tools to use, and can use those tools in a variety of ways. for example, your rakshasa does not have any special defense agains spells that are not targeting it. so, for example, a spell that grants a wizard one or more minions can readily provide the means for a wizard to deal with a rakshasa. that same spell can most likely be used to summon several different types of minions, each of which has a different set of abilities they can choose from. hey look, the wizard can adapt to combat situations, kinda like the champion can, except better because the champion can't decide to put a whole bunch of kobolds to sleep with no save, or plant a wall in the middle of the field, or offer any form of crowd control that lasts longer than they spend actions and are standing next to an enemy, and so forth.

    wizard has more options. those options can be used in a variety of ways, not just collectively, but in many cases individually also. if the champion has adaptability, so does the wizard. it doesn't matter that the wizard's spell list, once prepared, is basically set for the day. the wizard is, if anything, *more* capable of changing their strategies to deal with situations they didn't necessarily expect to come across, because more options does that for you.
    More tools does not make you a better mechanic. Having more options does not immediately make you better than someone who has less. I would rather go to a doctor who specializes in the type of surgery I need instead of to a general surgeon, due to the specialist's increased reliability and knowledge.

    You're argument that "because he has more" makes the Wizard better is nothing more than opinion at this point.
    Last edited by Fwiffo86; 2015-02-18 at 10:13 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    except that wizards can cover broad categories of abilities with some spells. I already pointed out above how you can "adapt" to different situations using just a single spell (wall of stone) in the wizard arsenal. the wizard (or other prepared caster). the wizard has more tools to use, and can use those tools in a variety of ways. for example, your rakshasa does not have any special defense agains spells that are not targeting it. so, for example, a spell that grants a wizard one or more minions can readily provide the means for a wizard to deal with a rakshasa. that same spell can most likely be used to summon several different types of minions, each of which has a different set of abilities they can choose from. hey look, the wizard can adapt to combat situations, kinda like the champion can, except better because the champion can't decide to put a whole bunch of kobolds to sleep with no save, or plant a wall in the middle of the field, or offer any form of crowd control that lasts longer than they spend actions and are standing next to an enemy, and so forth.

    wizard has more options. those options can be used in a variety of ways, not just collectively, but in many cases individually also. if the champion has adaptability, so does the wizard. it doesn't matter that the wizard's spell list, once prepared, is basically set for the day. the wizard is, if anything, *more* capable of changing their strategies to deal with situations they didn't necessarily expect to come across, because more options does that for you.
    Again, those are examples of wizard versatility. Spells can be applied in a wide variety of situations (versatile), if spells don't work however, or the spellcasting is restricted (silence), the wizard is very restricted (i.e. not adaptable).

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    And if attacks don't work (high AC) or are restricted (monsters that can't be hurt by nonmagical weapons), then the fighter is similarly restricted.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And if attacks don't work (high AC) or are restricted (monsters that can't be hurt by nonmagical weapons), then the fighter is similarly restricted.
    Do you believe a martial vs a target that is immune to non-magic weapons is useless?
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And if attacks don't work (high AC) or are restricted (monsters that can't be hurt by nonmagical weapons), then the fighter is similarly restricted.
    Due to bounded accuracy and the champion's expanded critical hit range, there will never be a situation where the champion has much difficulty hitting the target. Compare that to saves vs. legendary resistances, and it's apparent that targeting AC is much easier than targeting saves.

    As we can see from the CR analysis thread, AC doesn't even go over 20 for any monsters in the MM. Even in the most wild campaign, AC 25 would be extremely high. A level 12 champion more than likely has max STR or DEX, meaning +9 to hit, or +11 if he's an archer. He'd have to roll 16 or higher to hit.

    So even a level 12 champion attacking an inordinate AC creature will hit it 25% of the time. A level 20 champion, with his +11 bonus and 4/5 attacks per round, won't have trouble hitting anything.

    As far as magic weapons go, even HotDQ has magic weapons. A champion can very easily assume he'll have a magic weapon, if not one with bonuses, by level 10 if not sooner. Just because the math works without magic weapons doesn't mean players won't have them. Furthermore, only a tiny portion of mobs have resistance to magical weapons.

    Any DM who throws mobs with resistance to non magical weapons at his players and refuses to give them any access to magical weapons probably won't have players for long, so that odd case can be discounted.
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  12. - Top - End - #252
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Holy thread derailment Batman!

    Guys let's try and keep it to martials. The only valid comparisons are the other fighter subclasses, and then maybe Ranger, Paladin, Barb, Rogue, and Monk.

    You start bringing in full spellcasters and the debate is on something else entirely, which was not really part of the scope of Lee's OP.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Garimeth View Post
    Holy thread derailment Batman!

    Guys let's try and keep it to martials. The only valid comparisons are the other fighter subclasses, and then maybe Ranger, Paladin, Barb, Rogue, and Monk.

    You start bringing in full spellcasters and the debate is on something else entirely, which was not really part of the scope of Lee's OP.
    You would need to take out Monk, Paladin, and Ranger. They are casters/classes with actual good core class options.

    Barbarian and Rogue aren't, at their core, magical classes. They both, like the fighter, can get some magic or magic like abilities but their core isn't magical.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderJoe View Post
    You would need to take out Monk, Paladin, and Ranger. They are casters/classes with actual good core class options.

    Barbarian and Rogue aren't, at their core, magical classes. They both, like the fighter, can get some magic or magic like abilities but their core isn't magical.
    Fair point, but my main drift is that talking about the Champion compared to the Wizard is way outside the scope of the actual topic.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And if attacks don't work (high AC) or are restricted (monsters that can't be hurt by nonmagical weapons), then the fighter is similarly restricted.
    High AC may be an issue, but again the champion is well equipped to deal with that, perhaps more so than other classes thanks to more feats/ASIs and fighting styles. As for magic weapons the fighter should have a caster buddy providing him with one should the need arise. It will be the best target of the spell and damage-wise could be the most devastating spell in the caster's arsenal.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Garimeth View Post
    Fair point, but my main drift is that talking about the Champion compared to the Wizard is way outside the scope of the actual topic.
    we're not talking about wizards vs fighters, we're talking about what "versatile" and "adaptable" are, and whether or not either can be applied to a champion.

    apparently, "adaptable" means that when champions adjust their tactics by doing different things using the same tools, that's adaptable, but when wizards adjust their tactics by doing different things using the same tools, that is not adaptable, according to him.

    I happen to disagree. if "adaptable" is being used to mean "able to adjust tactics to the situation", then that's what it means, whether or not the person the word is being applied to is a champion or a wizard. he apparently disagrees, because he keeps insisting that there is a possibility for spells to just not work for whatever reason, while insisting that the champion's options always work with no difficulties (so, for example, you're never disarmed, using a weapon that your feats or combat style don't synergize with, fighting an enemy that is resistant to your attacks, fighting an enemy that dissolves things that come in contact with it, etc). I have at the same time pointed out that the other fighter subclasses *also* have more ability to adapt to different situations as well, and that quite frankly of all the subclasses in the game there are very few that have as low a number of ways to adapt to different situations than the champion (the only other one I can think of with so little ability to adapt to different situations would be the berserker...)

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    About wizards adaptability.
    Can V blast the treants by hirself? No. All that arcane might, absolutely useless. Not adaptable.
    Yet V definitely knows hir stuff. Here, Z has the exact same adaptability problem.

    There is no doubt that in both case, a wizard could have the right spell to solve the problem prepared, because they are versatile. Too bad they need 8 hours of rest to change their options, because it is the opposite of adaptability.

    A champion fighter might never have half as much options than a wizard, but he can swap between them as a move action at worst. The wizard needs 8 hours of rest if he did not prepare the right spell. How is the wizard more adaptable that the fighter? Answer : he's not.

    In that context, adaptability has nothing to do with the number of options available. It has everything to do with your ability to access all of them at your whim.

    And don't get me started on the wizard that prepared a feather fall just in case, but need two in the same day.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    About wizards adaptability.
    Can V blast the treants by hirself? No. All that arcane might, absolutely useless. Not adaptable.
    Yet V definitely knows hir stuff. Here, Z has the exact same adaptability problem.

    There is no doubt that in both case, a wizard could have the right spell to solve the problem prepared, because they are versatile. Too bad they need 8 hours of rest to change their options, because it is the opposite of adaptability.

    A champion fighter might never have half as much options than a wizard, but he can swap between them as a move action at worst. The wizard needs 8 hours of rest if he did not prepare the right spell. How is the wizard more adaptable that the fighter? Answer : he's not.

    In that context, adaptability has nothing to do with the number of options available. It has everything to do with your ability to access all of them at your whim.

    And don't get me started on the wizard that prepared a feather fall just in case, but need two in the same day.
    sure, you keep telling yourself that. there's no way V couldn't have summoned some minions to deal with the druid's minions given the right spells, or prepared reverse gravity, or dispelled their protection and then nuked them, or had any of a host of other possible solutions to the problem. no, sir, those two spells V cast were clearly all of the possible options a high-level wizard could have possibly had, and it certainly was not in any way a joke about how sonic damage gets past just about everything.

    and in 5th edition, there's no such thing as preparing a feather fall, but being in a bad spot because you need two. you prepare it, you have as many available as you have spell slots (plus any possible scrolls, etc).

    if adaptability has to do about having access to all of your abilities at your whim, regardless of how many abilities you may have, then the wizard would somehow become *more* adaptable by losing their spellbook and never being able to change spells, at which point the spells the wizard has prepared would be all that the wizard has. personally, I find the notion that the wizard would become more adaptable by being unable to switch out spells to be so obviously absurd that it shouldn't even need anyone to point out how absurd it is, but apparently I was wrong. some people do, in fact, need to have it pointed out how absurd that would be. three times now, even.

    by your definition of adaptability, the champion would be equally adaptable if we took away *all* of the subclass features, and removed the ability to shove, take feats, or have skills, or use different weapons, so long as the champion always has the ability the hit things with the one weapon it is allowed to use all the time.

    if adaptability increases with having more options at a time, then the wizard has that, *plus* the ability to spend 8 hours changing their options for other options.

    and every other class and subclass in the game, excepting the berserker, has more adaptability than the champion, making it not a strength of the champion at all.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    sure, you keep telling yourself that. there's no way V couldn't have summoned some minions to deal with the druid's minions given the right spells, or prepared reverse gravity, or dispelled their protection and then nuked them, or had any of a host of other possible solutions to the problem.

    <<snipped for space>>

    and every other class and subclass in the game, excepting the berserker, has more adaptability than the champion, making it not a strength of the champion at all.
    I think you missed the point entirely. What is a wizard without spells? Since the majority of his class features are completely tied in with his ability to cast spells, when he doesn't have them, he becomes less effective than a warrior denied his weapons.

    A warrior (specifically a champion) has this vulnerability addressed by a non-magical regen, natural athlete, etc. All a warrior has to do to adapt to the situation is pick up a stick and start swinging. And depending on the feat, start punching. A warrior without a weapon is not nearly as crippling as a Wizard without spells or having prepared the wrong spells.

    The comic demonstrates perfectly that What the wizard prepares for the day completely determines his effectiveness in battle. While your argument is potentially valid, we can surmise from the comic that V did not have conjure spells prepared, or any other spells that would have been useful as a backup in the situation prepared. Why? Because the wizard lacks adaptability beyond his ability to predict what he will need for the day. The use of Spells is flexible and versatile. But the spells do not change to a new situation. They are a rigid set of effects. They are not adaptable.

    You can certainly argue that with the right spells situation X is resolved easily. But that requires that the appropriate spells are available. Many times they are not. When they are not, adaption to changing situations become impossible.

    I think your desire to ensure that caster supremacy is assured has restricted your view on this. Casters do not have all the answers. Martials do not have all the answers. The champion is a fine class. It has plenty of options to use. It does what it does, specializes in combat. It is a hammer, not a multi-tool.
    Last edited by Fwiffo86; 2015-02-18 at 03:46 PM.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Just to put the whole versatility vs adaptability thing to rest:
    Adaptable - able to adjust oneself rapidly to different conditions
    Versatile - having or capable of many uses

    Wizards are versatile. A single spell is generally not very versatile, with the exception of spells like wish or a repulsing Eldritch blast. Most spells only do one thing. A wizard can select many of them, so the wizard's ability to adapt depends on his spell selection.

    Bards are adaptable due to having abilities like Jack of All Trades, since this one ability has many applications. Champions have a similar ability in the form of Remarkable Athlete.

    While champions are less adaptable than a bard, their options tend to be very good when they do apply. Killing your opponents with high weapon damage is nearly always a viable option, and champions are better at doing this than any other class. Remarkable athlete and indomitable, among other abilities, work in a wide variety of situations. It can be said that these abilities are more adaptable than most spells.

    So I think it can be said that champions can adapt to many situations. Whether they're more or less adaptable than a given character depends on that character and how many different situations that character can fully adapt to.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    About wizards adaptability.
    Can V blast the treants by hirself? No. All that arcane might, absolutely useless. Not adaptable.
    Yet V definitely knows hir stuff. Here, Z has the exact same adaptability problem.

    There is no doubt that in both case, a wizard could have the right spell to solve the problem prepared, because they are versatile. Too bad they need 8 hours of rest to change their options, because it is the opposite of adaptability.

    A champion fighter might never have half as much options than a wizard, but he can swap between them as a move action at worst. The wizard needs 8 hours of rest if he did not prepare the right spell. How is the wizard more adaptable that the fighter? Answer : he's not.

    In that context, adaptability has nothing to do with the number of options available. It has everything to do with your ability to access all of them at your whim.

    And don't get me started on the wizard that prepared a feather fall just in case, but need two in the same day.
    I think this might summarize the point of adaptability and versatility well, but I feel that it's also a bit misleading.

    If person A has 200 different tools and carries 30 of them at a time, then he'd be considered not very adaptable, but very versatile.

    Meanwhile if person B has 10 tools and carries all of them all of the time he'd be considered not very versatile, but adaptable.



    So in that context sure. The wizard isn't adaptable, but very versatile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    sure, you keep telling yourself that. there's no way V couldn't have summoned some minions to deal with the druid's minions given the right spells, or prepared reverse gravity, or dispelled their protection and then nuked them, or had any of a host of other possible solutions to the problem. no, sir, those two spells V cast were clearly all of the possible options a high-level wizard could have possibly had, and it certainly was not in any way a joke about how sonic damage gets past just about everything.
    Did I say V had no other options? Nope, I didn't. It would be false. But being in melee range is enough to screw a wizard; he has trouble adaptating to melee range.
    There is no longer concentration checks and AoO when casting in 5e, but summoned minions are dispelled with wizard bashing. Similarly, flight and invisibility are dispelled with wizard bashing. Wizards are vulnerable to mobs as everyone is but more than non-spellcasters are, because mobs deny them their concentration spells.

    and in 5th edition, there's no such thing as preparing a feather fall, but being in a bad spot because you need two. you prepare it, you have as many available as you have spell slots (plus any possible scrolls, etc).
    Well, that bit is more on ressource management. The longer the day, the more screwed the wizard is. A fighter only need a couple health potions to adapt to a longer adventuring day. A wizard needs dozens of varied scrolls to do the same.
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  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Well, that bit is more on ressource management. The longer the day, the more screwed the wizard is. A fighter only need a couple health potions to adapt to a longer adventuring day. A wizard needs dozens of varied scrolls to do the same.
    While that's true, I also find it to be trivial. The game itself is balanced around a certain # of encounters per long/short rest. Yes you can extend the day purposefully, but you're now outside the balance the system is built around. With that said, the game is meant to be stretched however you like, and if a person wants to make long rests happen rarely and short rests non-existent they can, but that is outside the purview of balance in the game.

  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    plenty of spells can be used in a variety of situations. i've already gone through and pointed out how many ways a wall (or other obstacle) spell can be used. that's one spell. it isn't the entire spell list. it doesn't require an 8 hour rest to prepare a different wall spell for each situation. you prepare that one spell, and it gives you a bunch of different ways to use it.

    the fact that V did not prepare any spells that would have been useful in a variety of situations is not a failing of the class, it is a failing on V's part. one which was necessary for the story, and particularly for the joke that was being told. V didn't have an appropriate spell because it was more funny to make a joke about sonic damage than it would have been if V was simply off buying spell components or something like that, not because V was unable to prepare any useful spells that could have covered a broad variety of situations. heck, even "i prepared explosive runes this morning" would have dealt force damage, and had that joke been the one that rich wanted to tell at the time, that's probably what would have happened (with belkar being forced to go in there and read the runes several times to stop the druid).

    now that vancian magic is basically dead as a doornail, it's even easier for most of the casting classes to be far more adaptable than the champion, because they only need a few spells to cover specific roles for the most part, and the rest can be dedicated to covering both niche spells and spells that can be used to solve a variety of different problems both in and out of combat.

    the champion has slightly superior DPR to other DPR classes (barring the exception of a rogue that can reliably get opportunity attacks or something). that is its claim to fame (well, up until level 18 at which point they get their second claim to fame, of being able to defeat a nigh-infinite number of really weak enemies). adaptability is not (the notion that the champion can just punch things to death without losing much effectiveness is somewhat amusing, but not remotely accurate... DPR will drop dramatically to the point where even unaugmented cantrip damage looks competitive. the notion that champions are completely unspecialized is likewise amusing, considering they will lose DPR by not using a weapon appropriate to their combat style and feats, though at least it's better than punching).

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Once you've cast your wall of stone however, that spell is gone. If you need another casting and can't, you typically aren't adaptable. The wizard can likely choose another spell to cast, but with a different effect, thus demonstrating versatility.

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    the champion has slightly superior DPR to other DPR classes (barring the exception of a rogue that can reliably get opportunity attacks or something). that is its claim to fame (well, up until level 18 at which point they get their second claim to fame, of being able to defeat a nigh-infinite number of really weak enemies). adaptability is not (the notion that the champion can just punch things to death without losing much effectiveness is somewhat amusing, but not remotely accurate... DPR will drop dramatically to the point where even unaugmented cantrip damage looks competitive. the notion that champions are completely unspecialized is likewise amusing, considering they will lose DPR by not using a weapon appropriate to their combat style and feats, though at least it's better than punching).
    I'm addressing this because it needs addressing. You need to pay closer attention to what people have said instead of reading things into their posts that don't exist. In your efforts to maintain your caster supremacy dogma you keep reading more into various posts that does not exist simply to have something to argue about.

    Example 1: At no point did I claim the champion fighter maintains "effectiveness" when forced to use an impromptu weapon (stick) or punch things. I simple said that being denied his weapons is not as crippling to him as a wizard losing his spells. The fighter can still be useful (granted, reduced effectiveness) where the wizard is straight up SOL. There are no impromptu spells to use. Either he has them, or he does not.

    Example 2: At no point has anyone argued with you about the versatility of a spell. Spell versatility is not what anyone is talking about. We are talking about the WIZARD's adaptability. Multiple uses of a single spell does not make him adaptable. It simply makes that spell versatile.
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    I made a 5th level Dragonborn Champion as a rival to one of the PCs in a campaign I'm running. They'd met in the first session and had a short scuffle that was broken up by the local authorities. About 2 months later in story time the party is attacked by a pirate ship and the Champion is aboard. Near the end of the battle he ends up near the rival PC (a Paladin) and recognizes him. He attacks, crits with a 19, dealing near full damage with a greataxe and Great Weapon Master, misses the bonus attack, crits with a 20 on his second attack, drops the Paladin, moves over to the party Barbarian, uses Action Surge, crits again for near max damage, hits one last time and drops the barbarian as well. It was pretty much what Axe from Dota does in the middle of a bunch of enemies and it was glorious - he did over 100 damage in a single turn. Unfortunately for him the other two PCs healed up their fallen comrades and since they acted before him on initiative, they managed to down him in a single turn. I couldn't even save him for a later encounter, but the Champion itself earned my respect.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    I think the reasoning behind the Champion is that when the party comes up against an obstacle there are two (types of) things you can do to deal with it (combat is an obstacle in this sense):

    1) Use a special ability (such as a spell) to get a defined effect against the obstacles. I'm pretty sure the design goal here was that no single ability would be able to overcome a serious obstacle on its own.

    2) Describe an action and have the DM give a DC and modifiers (proficient and/or (dis)advantage), roll a d20 and see if you succeed.

    The Champion is all about having good numbers on the physical challenges in type 2, without having to wrangle anything from type 1 (which some players don't want as part of their character).

  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwiffo86 View Post
    I'm addressing this because it needs addressing. You need to pay closer attention to what people have said instead of reading things into their posts that don't exist. In your efforts to maintain your caster supremacy dogma you keep reading more into various posts that does not exist simply to have something to argue about.

    Example 1: At no point did I claim the champion fighter maintains "effectiveness" when forced to use an impromptu weapon (stick) or punch things. I simple said that being denied his weapons is not as crippling to him as a wizard losing his spells. The fighter can still be useful (granted, reduced effectiveness) where the wizard is straight up SOL. There are no impromptu spells to use. Either he has them, or he does not.

    Example 2: At no point has anyone argued with you about the versatility of a spell. Spell versatility is not what anyone is talking about. We are talking about the WIZARD's adaptability. Multiple uses of a single spell does not make him adaptable. It simply makes that spell versatile.
    @gwendol: this is 5th edition. the wall spell isn't gone. you prepare a bunch of spells, that is your list for the day, mix and match as desired. if you don't know how the class works, why are you discussing it?

    @fwiff: if the champion being able to use his few abilities in multiple scenarios makes him adaptable, then the wizard being able to use his many abilities also makes him adaptable. if you want to talk about theoretical stamina issues, where the champion can theoretically go on just about forever (at level 18+) then sure, i'll grant you that. but that has absolutely nothing to do with either versatility or adaptability.

    the wizard can adapt with what it has. even with no spells left, the wizard can still adapt and be sub-par using cantrips, just like a champion that is fighting without a weapon can do.

    it is insane to claim that class A being able to use abilities in multiple ways is "adaptability" but in another class it is "versatility" when they are doing the SAME THING. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RESTING FOR 8 HOURS AND CHOOSING NEW SPELLS. I am talking about taking the list that you have prepared that morning, and working with it. if that's not "adapting" then neither is it adapting when the champion uses the list of abilities available to it.

  30. - Top - End - #270
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    Default Re: In Defense of the Champion

    Quote Originally Posted by MOLOKH View Post
    I made a 5th level Dragonborn Champion as a rival to one of the PCs in a campaign I'm running. They'd met in the first session and had a short scuffle that was broken up by the local authorities. About 2 months later in story time the party is attacked by a pirate ship and the Champion is aboard. Near the end of the battle he ends up near the rival PC (a Paladin) and recognizes him. He attacks, crits with a 19, dealing near full damage with a greataxe and Great Weapon Master, misses the bonus attack, crits with a 20 on his second attack, drops the Paladin, moves over to the party Barbarian, uses Action Surge, crits again for near max damage, hits one last time and drops the barbarian as well. It was pretty much what Axe from Dota does in the middle of a bunch of enemies and it was glorious - he did over 100 damage in a single turn. Unfortunately for him the other two PCs healed up their fallen comrades and since they acted before him on initiative, they managed to down him in a single turn. I couldn't even save him for a later encounter, but the Champion itself earned my respect.
    Sounds more like your d20 earned your respect rather than the class.

    Though I'm not sure why doing such a thing would be worth of respect but I'm weird like that.

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