Bleach X: Deicide (this time for real)

[Calemyr]

It's Aizen and Hat&Clogs! They need a reason not to lie.

[Rater202]

What reason did hatnclogs have to not tell Ichigo that he was part hollow to begin with? Or worn him about Aizen before sending him off to Soul Society?

As for Aizen, he was one of the ones who would be arrogant enough to assume that the explanation he came up with is the correct one.

And if you want to get technical, all of the explanations of chad's powers were correct.

[LaZodiac]

It's Aizen and Hat&Clogs! They need a reason not to lie.

This is a good reason, and why I hate characters like them.

What reason did hatnclogs have to not tell Ichigo that he was part hollow to begin with? Or worn him about Aizen before sending him off to Soul Society?

As for Aizen, he was one of the ones who would be arrogant enough to assume that the explanation he came up with is the correct one.

And if you want to get technical, all of the explanations of chad's powers were correct.

Because of a super over elaborate plot to defeat Aizen and train him. Alternatively because some of those details didn't exist yet.

[Starwulf]

Wow. Maybe not phrase things like that makes you come off pretty rude

Thanks, my bad.

I was making a joke

In Raters defense, Mato has said the exact same thing to him in the Dragonball Z thread("I accept your defeat), those two have been going at it pretty ferociously for a while now.

[LaZodiac]

In Raters defense, Mato has said the exact same thing to him in the Dragonball Z thread("I accept your defeat), those two have been going at it pretty ferociously for a while now.

I just hate the idea of a discussion being a contest to win, is all.

[Starwulf]

I just hate the idea of a discussion being a contest to win, is all.

Oh, I agree, I just didn't like seeing Rater being called rude when he was just throwing back at Mato what Mato threw at him. Two wrongs may not make a right, but they can certainly make you feel better sometimes ^^

[Rater202]

I just hate the idea of a discussion being a contest to win, is all.

Debate. This is a case of factual debate. When debate the facts, there's no such thing as winning. There's just true and false. It just so happens that Mato thinks his interpretation is true, when the facts make it false.

This is a common thread in my debates with Mato-I will have facts and/or logic on my side, proving my interpretation to be more factual than Mato's(remember when he claimed that Ichigo's Hollow was not his Zanpakuto immediately after the chapter that confirmed that Ichigo's hollow was the real Zangetsu? Or when he claimed that the Sternritter letter powers were cases of Fullbring despite that fact that Quincies are fatally allergic to hollow powers and Fullbring is literally hollow powers, and after the chapter that says they're powers Yhwach gave them)

[Infernally Clay]

The reason Urahara didn't tell Ichigo he was part Hollow is actually pretty straightforward - he created the Hogyoku. This, along with how quickly he stabilised the Visoreds, implies pretty strongly that Urahara wanted to create Shinigami/Hollow hybrids and has wanted to for at least a century. Urahara may not be evil per se but that doesn't mean he won't do things that others might find... unethical... for the sake of research. He pretty openly admitted to manipulating Rukia, for example, to hide the Hogyoku.

It's not that much of a stretch to believe Urahara has wanted to see how strong Ichigo can become, whereas Aizen has tried to see how strong he can make Ichigo. Two different approaches to ultimately the same goal.

[HandofShadows]

Hat & Clogs not giving out info is just his part of being a Chess Player. And there are times he really SHOULD tell people and he does not. But he also has sense of responsibility for what he has done. It was Urahara who got the process of getting Ichigo his powers back started.

[Infernally Clay]

Hat & Clogs not giving out info is just his part of being a Chess Player. And there are times he really SHOULD tell people and he does not. But he also has sense of responsibility for what he has done. It was Urahara who got the process of getting Ichigo his powers back started.

Like I said, he's not evil. He's simply manipulative. When all this stuff with the Quincy went down, it was Urahara who not only devised a way to neutralise their Bankai-stealing medallions but even gathered everyone together - Visoreds, Arrancar and even Fullbringers - so they could attack the Quincy in the Royal Palace with every ounce of strength they have.

[Mato]

Spoiler: Rater's squabbling

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Debate. This is a case of factual debate. When debate the facts, there's no such thing as winning. There's just true and false. It just so happens that Mato thinks his interpretation is true, when the facts make it false.

Again, not really.

Fact: Vanish from this world can mean Earth-only.
Fact: Tsukishima was holding a matching sword.
Fact: The dead Fullbringers were teased to join the fight.
Those are the facts that led you to claiming Tsukishima's depicted sword isn't proven to be his Fullbring so it can't be leading to your made up a fan theory about what he can or cannot do even through you cannot prove any of it.

The root of the argument started there. But I used the word "retcon" and you have to argue with someone so you latched onto it. Retcon as you so accurately put things is when the previous context changes. Like the context of calling someone a human to insult them, after the Fullbring arc being called a human is a compliment. Because as the facts would have it, a Human-Shinigami has limitless potential through Human-developed Fullbring absorption all thanks to the human element.

Also given that a Fullbring is awakened by strong emotions and pride, Ichigo would have already awakened his. And if Urahara's power leakage was a real thing, then just standing in front of Aizen would have done it anyway. As the Execution arc depicts, unless you learn to control those powers they will spiral outwards harming other people but more important that Fullbringers can see Shinigamis. Ichigo should never have lost his ability to see Rukia. Fact is, it's a plot inconsistency brought on by the later invention of Fullbrings.

But unlike Ichigo, the invention of Fullbrings were retroactively applied to Chad and designated as the true explanation of Chad's abilities. To me, that's a retcon. Call it what you like, but you're not arguing facts. Because the fact is you're arguing if your idea of something meets your personal definition of a term against mine which is entirely subjective.

And this;

The hogyoku awakening his potential powers. Obviously, as Chad was not exposed to Ichigo's mutant Hollow/Shinigami reiatsu in utero, he likely would not have had sufficient time to absorb it to develop full fullbring, but would have had the potential to awaken it, which coupled with his desire to be strong to help Ichigo, allowed the Hogyoku to manifest it.

Is another fan theory not rooted in facts either. And as Rater202 would say, there is no proof that the Hogyoku grants Fullbrings. :)

Bleach 175 says the Hogyoku had a barrier placed around it on top of being buried in Rukia's soul. Then in Bleach 229 the Hogyoku, later explained to be Aizens after being fed Urahara's, is also noted to be 50% dormant and requires above captain-level powers to awaken it even for an instant. So your unfounded claim is the double sealed and dormant Hogyoku wake up to filter Ichigo's Shinigami/Hollow energy was filtered to Hollow-only and then specifically granted Chad Fullbringer powers. That's what? three or four assumptions right there?

I would have gone with Chad's dead parents that were never talked about being attacked by Hollows. But I'm a simple guy.

Like I said, he's not evil. He's simply manipulative.

I think Tite's presentation of him is to suggest Urahara is always on the side of good. He omits stuff and is willing to work with anyone, but that's not really evil.

[Rater202]

Okay, noew your mixing up two statements.

The "factual debate" coments were based entirely on the chad debate. The Tsukishima conversation wasn't a debate, merely a statement-Showing him holding a Katana is not proof positive that he retains Book of the end. Nothing more, nothing less. All evidence either way is circumstantial at best.

Now, onto the actual debate: Chad.

Starting with the comment on the Hogyoku being behind a barrier and inside Rukia: Doesn't mean a damn thing-The Hogyoku granting a desire for them to be able to fight is one of the explanations given for the abilities of Orihime and Chad. For that explanation to have been given, it must have been a possibility.

As for the Hogyoku not being stated to grant fullbring. It hasn't, but it doesn't need to be. The Hogyoku stated abilities are, and as follows: Hollowfication and Arancarification, the removal of barriers restricting the potential of a soul, and the granting of desires, as long as those desires are within the capabilities. The first one means it could have potentially just given two humans hollow powers, which is the gist of what fullbring is. The second two mean that if the two humans already had the potential to fullbring, such as by spending a few years being exposed to the leaking reiatsu of a Latent Shinigami/Hollow/Quincy hybrid, then the hogyoku could remove whatever restrictions block that potential power or grant them access to the power, since it was already in their potential to use it.

Weather or not Ichigo would have awakened his own Fullbring already is a complete non sequitur and has no bearing on this debate. Chad and Orihime awakened their powers before they even met aizen, and Aizen did not possess Hollow Powers until late in the arrancar arc. Ichigo meanwhile, was always part hollow, so his reiatsu would be hollow like.

The X-cution arc does not demonstrate anything about powers being dangerous if not controlled. It does however show that a Fullbringer who's parents were attacked by hollows and they absorbed reiatsu in utero are born with their powers, with the members of X-cution even saying that Fullbring was instinctive. Since Chad developed his ans a teenager and had to learn his abilities through trial and error, it is safe to conclude that his powers have a slightly different origin. As is the fact that he channels his fullbring through his own body instead of an inanimate object.

There's also the fact that Ichigo's mother was not attacked by a hollow when pregnant with him. Rather, she was the hollow. Meaning that Ichigo himself is technically a hollow. And with the reveal that Ichigo's hollow powerers and Shinigami powers are and alwayts were one and the same, his fullbring training boils down to "learn how to use his dormant powers in a diferant way, since his normal method has been cut off"

So we have Ichigo(learn to use preexisting hollow powers in a different way) X-cution(Born with hollow powers as a result of mother being attacked while pregnant), and Chad(Exposure to Ichigo's leaking Reiatsu combined with the Hogyoku)

Only key factor we have is the presence of hollow reiatsu at some point, which we know Chad has becuase his trip to Hueco Mundo led to him realize how similar his powers where to a hollow.

Human being used as an insult is irrelevent to this discussion, and isn't a retcon as it can be explained by the people using human as an insult not knowing about the "shinigami hybrids trading powers with fullbringers" thing

Which leads me to say: Chad's powers coming from exposure to Ichigo's reiatsu is not a fan theory. It's literally the explanation given in the manga. It all makes perfect sense when you put the clues together: Ichigo Is and always has been part hollow. That is a fact.

Chad is a Fullbringer: That is fact.

Fullbring requires one to be exposed to and absorb Hollow Reiatsu: Fact, as all know fullbringers were exposed to a source of hollow like Reiatsu.

This requires in utero exposure: False As Orihime and Chad both demonstrate, one can develop fullbring late in life, while being born with powers is the key characteristic of fullbringers exposed to Hollow Reiatsu in utero.

Exposure to Ichigo's reatsu is given as an explantion for Chad's powers. Fact

Chad has spent a large amount of time in regular contact with Ichigo. Fact

The Hgyoku granting Chad's desire to fight is given as an explanation for Chad's powers: Fact

The Hogyoku can remove barriers on power and grant abilities that the user already had the potential to develop. Fact

Now, let's put this all together now: Lots of exposure to Ichigo's hollow-like hybrid reiatsu allowed Chado, a living human whose soul is thus able to grow and change, to develop the potential for fullbring. Later, when Rukia was in town, had the Hogyoku sealed in her, and hollows were attacking the town, Chad had a great desire for the power to fight the hollows. The Hogyoku granted his desire by removing the barriers on his potential, allowing him to use his Fullbring.

Take all of the facts, put them together, and you get an explanation for the origin of Chad's powers that is perfectly consistent with everything.

Meaning it is not a retcon.

Meaning my checkmate stands. Once more, and I graciously accept your defeat.

[Infernally Clay]

I think Tite's presentation of him is to suggest Urahara is always on the side of good. He omits stuff and is willing to work with anyone, but that's not really evil.

He's Aizen's foil, yeah. Both are incredibly powerful and incredibly smart, but one is clearly good while the other is clearly evil. Mayuri completes the mad scientist trifecta - he's rather neutral, actually. He's just as likely to help you as hurt you, has basically no moràl compass to speak of, gleefully performs cruel and unusual experiments yet much like Urahara he's there when you really need him.

It just happens that Mayuri isn't on the same level as Urahara or Aizen in terms of power or manipulation. Large parts of Bleach itself have been a chess match between those two, both using others to fight for them even though they're strong enough to do everything themselves. It's actually a shame we won't get to see Urahara and Aizen duke it out properly. I would've loved to see the two bust out Bankai and clash with one another.

[Mato]

Spoiler

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Doesn't mean a damn thing-The Hogyoku granting a desire for them to be able to fight is one of the explanations given for the abilities of Orihime and Chad.

The subject is about that statement being retconned, it cannot self-validate.

As for the Hogyoku not being stated to grant fullbring. It hasn't, but it doesn't need to be. The Hogyoku stated abilities are, and as follows: Hollowfication and Arancarification, the removal of barriers restricting the potential of a soul, and the granting of desires, as long as those desires are within the capabilities.

No, it needs to be.

Shinigamis obtaining Hollow powers isn't new and has been banned for centuries. According to Urahara the Hogyoku only stabilized the souls of the Visored, Qunicy powers were also needed for the finished result. On the other end of the spectrum, Arrancar are not new either. Stark is even confirmed as one before Aizen met him. Quantity and quality is what's new.

So already-made Shinigamis have the potential to hollowfy and already-made Hollows have the potential unmask them selves naturally. The Hogyoku just forces the process.

Fullbring potential is a birthright just as Qunicy powers are. A Human born without the Qunicy line or Hollow influence in the uterus do not have that potential.

Sorry, but [citation needed].

The X-cution arc does not demonstrate anything about powers being dangerous if not controlled.

There is this.

Then there are facts.
Ch 445: Chad is concerned if Ichigo can control his powers or not.
Ch 451: On completion it detonates, requiring a second to help control it.
Ch 471: Giriko loses an eye for having second thoughts.
Please read the manga before commenting.

It does however show that a Fullbringer who's parents were attacked by hollows and they absorbed reiatsu in utero are born with their powers

There's also the fact that Ichigo's mother was not attacked by a hollow when pregnant with him.

Masaki lost her powers 9 years before the start of the story, not before Ichigo was born. Isshin says she actually never suffered another injury from a Hollow again, meaning she continued to fight Hollows after being bound to Isshin. Further still, Isshin says he would have tried to help her against the Grand Fisher if he thought she was in any danger so her combat abilities never deteriorated over the years.

You assume she stopped fighting Hollows, but it's implied she never did and your first sentence is proof she didn't. Your ability to discern what is factual is severely lacking.

Which leads me to say: Chad's powers coming from exposure to Ichigo's reiatsu is not a fan theory. It's literally the explanation given in the manga.

Actually Urahara states Ichigo's spirit energy awakened their dormant abilities they were born with in Ch 44.

I missed that, it'd mean Urahara's explanation wasn't retconned. Just the fan theory about what Urahara said is, and always has been, wrong. Since you are the worst debate partner I have ever seen in my history on Earth, it's up to me to partially debunk my self. Which also means

This requires in utero exposure: False As Orihime and Chad both demonstrate, one can develop fullbring late in life, while being born with powers is the key characteristic of fullbringers exposed to Hollow Reiatsu in utero.

Developing is not the same as obtaining, you have arrived at an illogical conclusion which is not a fact.

Also your so called "fact" proven wrong by the Fullbring arc & Urahara in chapter 44.

Exposure to Ichigo's reatsu is given as an explantion for Chad's powers. Fact

Actually that's made up and has never had any grounding the manga ever.

The Hgyoku granting Chad's desire to fight is given as an explanation for Chad's powers: Fact

That disagrees with text before and after. So it's more of a continuity error really.

Now, let's put this all together now:

It just so happens that Rater thinks his interpretation is true, when the real facts make it false.

btw, I said BZ & WI were Ichigo's power. The summation of them is Ichigo's true spirit entity, not their split parts. And seeing how they both say such near the end of the Decide you lost that argument not won it. I did set forth a theory that the individual Qunicy powers could be based on Fullbrings, and it's not necessarily wrong. Per Fullbring, it's correct. Ch 535 confirms the polar opposition of Qunicy isn't Hollow but Shinigami, what you are banking on is that Urahara states Qunicies have no Hollow-antibodies which would lead to soul erosion is some kind of absolute. But Yawch's soul is constantly deteriorating, needing a supply of newly absorbed souls to prevent from regressing back to a helplessly blind baby. That is the capital sign of Hollow infection. The Wandenreich also had wide spread bodily damage before giving up the Hollowfied Bankais, chopping off an infected toe when you have fever doesn't cure the disease, it is logical to say the Wandenreich are also infected. The theory basically amounts to they didn't just become infected but have been, the amount of Hollow-disease in them was simply taken to critical levels. Sort of like how you can tolerate small amounts of deadly nerve agents and toxins just fine as long as the amount remains low. Looking back on it, the only thing I'd change is the inclusion of Zanpaktu powers as an explanation for the bestowed unique since it's confirmed Yawch adsorbs everything Qunicy's hit with their arrows (which also means all the killed hollows btw).

But enough of that. I recognize your shout out was a seed to fuel your love of pointless bickering. So all that will be said is once again: Please read the manga before arguing.

He's Aizen's foil, yeah. Both are incredibly powerful and incredibly smart, but one is clearly good while the other is clearly evil. Mayuri completes the mad scientist trifecta - he's rather neutral, actually. He's just as likely to help you as hurt you, has basically no moràl compass to speak of, gleefully performs cruel and unusual experiments yet much like Urahara he's there when you really need him.

D&D's alignments in Bleach's terms :)

Mayuri kind of comes across as purposely sadistic through. I kind of dislike him. A lot.

[Rater202]

Okay, I'm done, and now I think you're just arguing to piss me off. The facts and all logic support my statement, despite what you say.

There's just one thing I'm going to say: Nowhere did I ever say anything about Masaki losing her powers. That entire Tangent is non sequitur for the argument. But, for the sake of completion

furthermore, her never being injured by a hollow again is proof negative against Ichigo's fullbring having a similar origin to X-Cution's-if she was never hurt by a hollow, then that hollow's Reiatsu would never have been able to be absorbed by Ichigo in Utero.

what makes more sense: A That Ichigo has had a fullbring the entire time, seperate from his other inherent hollow powers, that he magically was not born being able to use like the other fullbringers who gained their abilities that way.

Or B: Ichigo's Fullbring is a, for lack of a more accurate term, artificial one, developed, unlike the fullbring of X-Cution which is inherent and instinctual, through training as an alternative method to access the hollow powers he inherited from his half-hollow mother, as those powers were otherwise sealed off when his combined Shinigami and hollow powers were sealed away by using Saigo no Getsuga Tensho.

B makes the most sense.

Bnd for the last, gods damned time, Stop Telling me to read the Gods Damned Maga! I read the damn manga. Otherwise I wouldn't even be posting here.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Meaning it is not a retcon.

Depends on your definition of retcon. Since the term is retroactive continuity I think its really only a retcon if they try to say that the other explanations never happened, not that they were wrong. Changing the nature of his powers is a retcon, adding another description is not really. The problem is that there's no real way to tell which of the above happened to Chad.

You basically need fan theories because Chad's powers have been explained terribly and inconsistently. I'm pretty sure Tite's intent is for his audience to not remember half of this rubbish and just go with the flow.

[Mato]

You basically need fan theories because Chad's powers have been explained terribly and inconsistently. I'm pretty sure Tite's intent is for his audience to not remember half of this rubbish and just go with the flow.

Probably, but he does like his twists and turns.

[Cyber Punk]

His incredibly twisty twists and turns. Can be like a kudzu plot. There's a reason I don't think too much about Bleach's plot.

Things like this shows why the fan term 'Plotkai' exists.

[LaZodiac]

There's a reason I don't think too much about Bleach's plot.

Only really have, or need, to say one thing.

THE HEART

[Infernally Clay]

There's a reason I don't think too much about Bleach's plot.

You merely can't grasp the true genius of Kubo, that's all. Aizen is his surrogate and all is according to his keikaku*.

("keikaku" means "plan")

[-D-]

Only really have, or need, to say one thing.

THE HEART

Eh?

[Frozen_Feet]

I don't buy for a second that Urahara's good. If anything, he, Mayuri and Aizen are all Evil, in D&D terms - Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil, respectively. I noted in one earlier thread that Urahara seems to be a Last Man to Aizen's Übermensch - Urahara does what he does in service of Soul Society and its stability even after it has thrown him out ("Soul King is the lynchpin" etc.), while Aizen wants to actively overthrow and replace it.

[HandofShadows]

Frozen_Feet, I think your confusing manipulative with evil. Hat & Clogs has gone out of his way on more than one occasion to help others and not expected anything in return. Evil characters don't do that very often.

[Durkoala]

His incredibly twisty twists and turns. Can be like a kudzu plot. There's a reason I don't think too much about Bleach's plot.

I think it would be a lot better if he learned to foreshadow things better. And sorted out his pacing.

[Frozen_Feet]

Frozen_Feet, I think your confusing manipulative with evil. Hat & Clogs has gone out of his way on more than one occasion to help others and not expected anything in return. Evil characters don't do that very often.

On the contrary, he helps others so he can make them fight in his strange shadow wars. Ichigo was basically just Urahara's puppet to confront Aizen for first half of the series - that is his return. Also, Urahara makes stuff out of human souls, started the Hollowfication experiments, and let out Mayuri despite knowing how bad he was.

[HandofShadows]

On the contrary, he helps others so he can make them fight in his strange shadow wars. Ichigo was basically just Urahara's puppet to confront Aizen for first half of the series - that is his return. Also, Urahara makes stuff out of human souls, started the Hollowfication experiments, and let out Mayuri despite knowing how bad he was.

A shadow war that saved tens of thousands of people in the world of the living and saved the SS. Yes, Ichigo was a manipulated, that what people like him do, manipulate. Of course if he hadn't taken the path he did, Aizen would have won. I would point out that Ichigo's father was in on it as well. Making stuff out of human souls have NEVER been really described well and is contradictory to other things in the series from my pov. Aizen was far ahead of Urahara in the Hollowification experiments. I don't recall any evidence Urahara hurt anyone with his experiments and in fact saved a number of people from the effects of Aizen's experiments. As for letting Mayuri out, he was one of the few people that could control him and keep him from causing harm and still make use of his skill and knowledge. I think you should be mad at the people who KEPT him out without any supervision.

[Frozen_Feet]

Mayuri is, by Tite Kubo's own words, an examination of "necessary evil". Urahara knew exactly what kind of a person he was and why he was in solitary confinement. For him to let Mayuri out meant he was willing to write out all people killed by Mayuri as acceptable losses. "For the Greater Good" and "it was a necessary evil" are precisely the sort of justifications a Lawful Evil person would use. Also, what do you mean by "never described"? The special Gigai Urahara made for Isshin was specifically made of those and Urahara made evil shade eyes when talking about it.

As for "never hurt anyone", uh, how about Ichigo? Urahara has both threatened to kill him and actually killed him as parts of poorly-explained Training from Hell. If you're claiming manipulating someone that way is "not evil", I don't know what to say.

[Cyber Punk]

Eh?

THE HEART refers to the arc where Ichigo fought Ulquiorra, got beaten to almost-death and became a hollow something just because he heard Orihime's voice.

[LaZodiac]

THE HEART refers to the arc where Ichigo fought Ulquiorra, got beaten to almost-death and became a hollow something just because he heard Orihime's voice.

It also refers to the full page spread of nothing but.

THE HEART

on it.

[Mato]

Spoiler

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