Nine sides in the conflict

[Elenna]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm starting a new thread to avoid necromancy.

Back in strip 548, the were talking about how the conflict had at least nine sides.

So, the Order of the Stick, the Linear guild, Xykon, Redcloak + goblins, the IFCC...who else?

Tarquin's group didn't know anything about the Snarl at the time
Hel wasn't directly involved yet
The Order of the Scribble probably counts as a group although they weren't exactly working together.
Do the various factions of gods count? As far as we know so far, they aren't actually doing anything personally besides hoping not to be killed.

Thoughts?

[2.5 cats]

Seems safe to me to say that Tarquin & co. are one of the 9 sides. Particularly since in author commentary in DStP Rich Burlew says that in the next book (= BRiTF) we'll be "meeting one of the 9 sides we haven't met yet." and I don't see who else it could be.

[Porthos]

I have come to the conclusion that we won't ever have the nine (or more) sides nailed down. Rich himself might not even know (though he might! ).

Instead, I have come to the way of thinking that the comment about the nine sides was either metaphorical or a literary techincque to tell the reader base that, hey, this simple one team on one team conflict that you thought was going on isn't so simple after all. It was a sign that this wasn't just Team OotS v Team Evil, but that there were multiple actors at play, some unintroduced, that had their own agendas.

Trying to nail down the nine sides might be like trying to count each individual tree after someone reminds a person that they can't see a forest for all the trees out there.

Now, being the kinda reader base that we are (or at least some of us ), we do in fact see people try to figure out the nine (or more) sides. Which is fine. Great even. But those of us wanting an authoritative or definitive answer might be waiting a while.

====

As for the "side will be introduced" comment in DStP commentary, while at first blush it does indeed look like Tarquin, it could also easily be referring to Team Hel or even Team Snarl (Laurin being mindblasted or whatever the heck happened to her).

The fact that basic things like the above are still in the air is probably another reason why Rich hasn't yet spelled everything out, or even confirmed the existence of a "side".

EDITED:::

*thinks for a sec*

*checks*

Huh. Will you look at that. Hel WAS first seen in BRitF.

Huh. Rich "Exact Words" Burlew strikes again?

[pwning doodes]

How about the Sappire Guard? Or the MitD?

[johnbragg]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm starting a new thread to avoid necromancy.

Back in strip 548, the were talking about how the conflict had at least nine sides.

So, the Order of the Stick, the Linear guild, Xykon, Redcloak + goblins, the IFCC...who else?

Tarquin's group didn't know anything about the Snarl at the time
Hel wasn't directly involved yet
The Order of the Scribble probably counts as a group although they weren't exactly working together.
Do the various factions of gods count? As far as we know so far, they aren't actually doing anything personally besides hoping not to be killed.

Thoughts?

Not sure the Linear Guild counts as one of the nine sides. There is no Linear Guild without the really-most-sincerely dead Nale. Beyond that, Zzzdtri is dead, they would need yet another cleric and another short dual-wielding psychopath. And I'm not sure the IFCC would green-light Sabine restarting the LG anyway.

So OOTS, Xykon, Redcloak, the IFCC.

5. The Sapphire Guild and Hinjo have an agenda not entirely aligned with OOTS'.
6. Hel will probably play some sort of role--even if the Hel vs Dwarvenkind arc is mostly resolved in this book, she's now a player in the game.
7. Tarquin, in some form, still has a part to play in the story (either during the climax, or as epilogue).
8. I think MITD emerges as an independent player towards the climax. Or already has, with the rescue of Dark V and O'Chul.
9. ??????

[Gift Jeraff]

The roaches were likely breaking the fourth wall and using authorial knowledge to tease the readers, so the sides don't all need to be contending for the Gates at that moment. My current guess:

1. Good Guys (goal: protect the Gates)
2. Xykon (goal: use the Gates to conquer the world)
3. Redcloak / Dark One (goal: use the Gates to threaten the elder gods)
4. IFCC (goal: use the Gates to bring down the gods)
5. Linear Guild (goal: use the Gates to destroy personal enemies and conquer the world in the process)
6. Tarquin (goal: destroy the Gates to prevent other villains from using them against him)
7. the vampire / Hel (goal: use the Gates to bring ruin to the world and bring Thor down in the process)
8. the Snarl or whatever's behind the rifts? (goal: break free and destroy existence? bring souls into its new world?)
9. Serini and/or the elder gods? (goal: protect some grand conspiracy involving the Gates?)

[Osrogue]

Well, in order of appearance

OoTS
Xykon
redcloak
Linear guild (now dead. Arguably were always pawns)
The Sapphie Guard (if they are teaming with the order now, they started off on different teams. Arguable. Their primary goal is retaking Sapphire city.)
The IFCC
Tarquin's crew
Hel (probably)


So there are arguably eight sides I've counted, but plausibly less.

We might meet the ninth side in the final book. They may be whoever is guarding the final gate. Also, depending on where the MitD ends up, he might be his own side, but he'll pobably side with O-chuul and te sapphire guard as of now.

[Onyavar]

I'm still in favor of making this a sticky, and merge the dozens of previous threads into that sticky.

(On the other hand, thread necromancy on exactly this single question would be an awesome feat - just imagine hordes of thread zombies shambling in this subforum, completely filling up the first three pages...) *grins, laughs maniacally*

And now my 2 €-cents: My take on the 20 sides of the conflict, did I forget anyone?

[Adamo Veritas]

I also would add the Thieves Guild to the list. While not seemingly interested in the Gates, they are definitely a side in conflict with the OOTS. Given recent events, they probably will follow OOTS to the gate and become interested.

[Bulldog Psion]

My guess is that it's a ballpark estimate by the roaches, based on the canonical nine alignments of D&D.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I agree. Trying to figure out the exact "nine sides" seems like taking it too literally.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I agree that it's probably not exactly nine sides, and I also think that what sides were considered by the roaches to be involved or actually a side isn't entirely clear. My rough guess would be
The Order of the Stick
The Order of the Scribble
The Azurites
The Linear Guild
The Vector Legion
The Thieves' Guild
Hel
The Dark One and Redcloak
Xykon
The IFCC

Also, it is interesting how often this topic pops up. I guess it shows how much of an impact these little hints have.

[martianmister]

OotS and their allies: Wants to save the world.
Xykon and his minions: Wants to dominate the world.
Redcloak and goblinoids: Wants to create a better world for goblins.
Tarquin and his friends: Wants to control/eliminate it for their own ends.
Nale and LG members: Wants to conquer the world.
IFCC and their pawns: Wants to destroy upper planes.
Hel and her worshippers: Wants to beat Thor and his followers.
Gods and their agents: Wants to completely stop it.
Snarl and its possible supporters: Wants to destroy the world.

[Boogastreehouse]

*

What the heck. I put a lot of time into writing this up, so I'm gonna re-post it every time this thread gets restarted.

First off, let me point out that I feel that the roaches were making a jokey comment; it may not necessarily be a literal, Word-Of-Giant proclamation as to the number of factions concerned about the gate. I, myself feel that "at least nine sides" is what we should take from their statement, but for all I know it could be more, it could be less or it could actually be exactly nine. We probably won't know 'till the end. My latest take on the breakdown has now been updated as follows:


Known Sides (which are under no obligation to actually add up to nine):

The Mortals United (more or less) to Defeat Xykon—This faction is distinct from the gods, because it has been suggested that the gods are withholding information regarding the Rifts and the Snarl. Moreover, it has been implied that the gods might just wait and see what happens—they'll hide somewhere safe again if the world gets destroyed again, and then just return and re-boot it again later. The mortals on the other hand intend to fight to survive. This faction has grown to thus far include The Sapphire Guard, their allies the Elves and, of course, the Order of the Stick.

Girard Draketooth and his family—This faction is distinct from the The Mortals United to Defeat Xykon, due to their ideological differences with Soon and the Saphire Guard. Girard and Soon felt that they had to protect the Rifts not only from the forces evil, but from each other. Serini, another former member of the Order of the Scribble, may still be an ally or representative of this side, making her the last survivor of the faction. If not, then this side has been completely wiped out.

Xykon—the epic lich sorcerer who wants to take control of the Gates, mainly just because he can. He intends to use the power of the Gates for his own evil amusement. His pawns include Redcloak (who actually belongs to another side), and the Monster in the Darkness (who will probably turn on him, thanks to the guidance of the Paladin O-Chul). His only other pawn (and the only one truly loyal to him), Tsukiko, is now dead.

The Dark One—and his High Priest, Redcloak. The Dark One is apparently prepared to use the Snarl as a tool for blackmailing the gods, and is willing to either kill the gods or to unmake reality if his demands are not met. Now that the Dark One is a god, himself, he expects to be able to survive the destruction, like the gods managed to do last time, and then be a part of the process of remaking the next world.

The Gods—beings who allegedly want to keep the Snarl imprisoned, for their own protection and incidentally for the benefit of the world. They seem to have a lot in common with the Mortals United to Defeat Xykon, but would apparently abandon the mortals in order to save themselves, or unmake the world and re-bind the Snarl more securely. The gods who were/are secretly aiding and advising The Dark One (Loki, I think? And Rat? And Tiamat?) might be on that side, or belong to a faction of their own (see below).

The IFCC (The Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission)—An Infernal Alliance that now knows of the gates that imprison the Snarl. Their stated goal is to storm the Gates of Heaven in a properly Milton-like fashion, probably using the Snarl as a weapon. Assuming they're telling the truth. Their pawns include Sabine and any surviving members of The Linear Guild, Quaar, and now that they have a brief claim on her/his soul, Vaarsuvius is probably their ace-in-the-hole.


Possible Sides:

Tarquin's Party/The Vector Legion—The Secret Masters of the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears. We haven't enough information at this time to conclude that they are or will be a faction. It is possible that they will now be interested in exploring and exploiting this set of "rifts" that they've recently discovered, and Laurin may have discovered some new information. Or she may have gotten killed

Dorukan the Wizard and Lirian the Druid—We have seen that these two former members of the Order of the Scribble continued to have (very) friendly contact after their party split up. We haven't enough information at this time, however, to conclude that they were a separate faction, although they could have been alienated by both Soon and/or Girard, and even if they had no ill-will for those two, they may have been driven away by the feud between them. Serini, the only member of the Order of the Scribble still unaccounted for, may be allied with the Druid and the Wizard.

Serini—Serini, if she's still alive, could be her own side, belong to someone else's side or she could have formed a whole organization like Soon's Paladins or Girard's family. We just have no idea what she's been up to since she built the Dungeon of Kraagor's Tomb.

The Snarl—a creature that, to the best of my knowledge, has only been depicted in flashbacks relating second-hand historical events has just made its first awesome appearance, and that allegedly wants to unmake the world and kill the gods. No known pawns or sub-factions. The Snarl seems to be an unthinking plot-device, but should it turn out to have sentience at some point, and should it consciously chose to oppose other factions in some way, it could then be considered a side.

Inhabitants of the Inner World—Any people living on the world that may exist within the Rifts would probably have their own priorities, though what they are remains unknown at this time. Perhaps they want to see the Snarl destroyed, or maybe that's the last thing that they want. Maybe the Greek Pantheon is in there, too. Their agenda, if they have one (if they even know about the outside world... and assuming there are even people on this planet!) remains uncertain.

The Oracle/Tiamat/their teleporting-and-resurrecting-lizardmen-lizardfolk-buddies—We haven't enough information at this time to conclude that they are or will be a faction.

Spoiler: The Evil Gods of the Three Pantheons—

Show

The gods who aided and advised The Dark One during his apotheosis (and perhaps still are aiding and advising him?). I think I remember Loki defending the Dark One from the other gods? And Rat? And Tiamat? They might be on the side of the gods, but I suspect they belong to a faction of their own, and they are manipulating the Dark One.

Hel—Looks like I've got to add Hel and her agent Durkon, or rather, the-vampire/spirit-in-possession-of-Durkon's-body, as a possible side. So far she hasn't specifically mentioned the Gates, but her allusions to a plan that will bring the world to ruin and bring Thor to his knees suggest that she might want control of the Gate.

The Greysky City Thieves' Guild—It is possible that Bozzak will follow up on the information regarding Haley's journey to the North. Bozzak has followed up on the information regarding Haley's journey to the North. At this time they do not appear to have any knowledge about the Gates, however.

Y'know what? I have a wild hunch that I should add this as a possible future side:

The Amun-Zora Alliance—Dedicated to overthrowing Tarquin, the bounty hunters Gannji and Enor recruited Ian on behalf of Amun-Zora. Ian might allow Geoff to hang around. There is absolutely no indication that they are or will be a side in the Gate-Conflict, but if Tarquin's group gets involved, they might follow.

That's how I would divide 'em up, based on what we know.

*

[johnbragg]

Something I had failed to consider in my guess above:

Aside from the open question as to the Word-of-Giant status of the roaches' "at least nine sides" comment,
the roaches are more probably speaking of sides viable at-the-time. They might well have known about the Draketooth Clan and count them as a side, even if the Draketooths are no longer a contender. (By this interpretation, the Linear Guild could be one of the "at least nine.") They arguably wouldn't have listed Hel, as she was currently without agents with which to constitute "a side."

So contenders, at the point in time the roaches commented:
1. OOTS
2. Xykon
3. Gobbotopia
4. Snarl
5. Linear Guild (down but not out)
6. IFCC (unknown to OOTS readers at the time, but connected to Sabine)
7. Sapphire Guild
8. Draketooth Clan
9. The Pantheons
10. MITD
11. Serini?

Other factions who, while not having Gates-relevant or Snarl-relevant plans, might constitute "sides" at the time
12. Greysky Thieves' Guild
13. Vector Legion (connected to Elan to Nale & Sabine)
14. Azure City nobles not supporting the Sapphire Guild (very possibly more than one faction)
15. Azure City resistance

[D.One]

My guess is that it's a ballpark estimate by the roaches, based on the canonical nine alignments of D&D.

I've allways seen this way too, but I wouldn't rule out The Giant using a double meaning here, both making a reference to the nine alignments and also imagining nine major groups in conflict.

[Zevox]

I would say that there are a few we can say for sure count, and a number that are unclear at this time. Note that I would only count involvement in the struggle over the Gates, since that was the conflict Redcloak was referring to in the line that prompted the Roach's comment - things like the Sapphire Guard wanting to take back Azure City I don't see as at all relevant here.

The definite:
1) The Order of the Stick. Possibly as the most important part of a "team good" of sorts with the Sapphire Guard.
2) Xykon, mostly on his own, though Tsukiko would be included with him when she was alive. The MitD tentatively goes here for now as well, since he listens to Xykon (also remember the end of Start of Darkness, for those who read it), but it looks likely that this will change at some point.
3) Redcloak and the Hobgoblins, in service to the Dark One's Plan.
4) The IFCC, with Qarr and Sabine.
5) The Linear Guild. While they're now most likely out of the picture, since Sabine has no reason not to just stay with the IFCC unless Nale is somehow brought back and Thog would be directionless without him even if he's still alive, they were involved in the struggle over the Gates for a while there, and were even a significant factor in the struggle over Girard's Gate in particular, so they should definitely count.

The likely but less certain:
- Hel and Vampire Durkon. Their sudden introduction at the end of the last book, obvious importance to the one that just started, and agenda separate from everyone else's makes it look likely that they'll be one of the sides in question. The only question is whether they actually go after the Gate or have some other plan.

The possible:
- The Vector Legion (Tarquin & crew). They were involved in the struggle over Girard's Gate, but only briefly, and mostly tangentially as the main reason they got involved was Tarquin's desire to test Nale and Elan. Unclear if that's enough to count.
- The Greysky Thieves' Guild. Seemed unlikely that they'd be important after the Order left them behind in Don't Split the Party, but their reappearance now means that might change.
- The Sapphire Guard. Depends on whether they count as being part of the Order's side. On the issue of the Gates their interests are completely aligned, so I'm inclined to say that they do, personally.
- The Order of the Scribble. Their interests align with the Order of the Stick's, but each of them has been dead when the Order arrived at their respective Gates, so outside of Lirian and Dorukon's roles in Start of Darkness they haven't actually been involved in the conflict outside of the backstory. Unclear if they'd count as their own side(s?), part of the Order's, or not at all.

I would not count the gods (as a group - The Dark One is an obvious exception, and Hel is a likely one) or the Snarl, since they have never involved themselves directly in the struggle over the Gates. The Snarl is actually incapable of doing so, being bound by said Gates, at least for now. Same for mundane groups who never had an interest in the Gates, such as Kubota, or Ian Starshine's new anti-Tarquin resistance group, or even the former Azure City Resistance.

[Elenna]

Something I had failed to consider in my guess above:

Aside from the open question as to the Word-of-Giant status of the roaches' "at least nine sides" comment,
the roaches are more probably speaking of sides viable at-the-time. They might well have known about the Draketooth Clan and count them as a side, even if the Draketooths are no longer a contender. (By this interpretation, the Linear Guild could be one of the "at least nine.") They arguably wouldn't have listed Hel, as she was currently without agents with which to constitute "a side."

Yes, that is what I was suggesting in the original post. We could consider the gods in general and the Snarl as their own sides (which hadn't done anything yet at the time of that statement), but in that case the entire population of the world should really be a side, which seems rather silly.

Of course, it's possible that the roaches are looking into the future of the comic, given how often they break the fourth wall. But if not, I wonder if there are still factions we haven't seen that were involved at that time...

[Monarch Dodora]

Hm. There are nine possible alignments, too.

Not that I expect the nine sides to be all neat-and-discrete in their alignments. But, y'know. It's a thing that's cool. Ish.

[ti'esar]

That's probably not a coincidence. If (as most of us assume) the Giant doesn't actually have a formally delineated list of the "sides", that's probably where he got the number from.

[dps]

Seems safe to me to say that Tarquin & co. are one of the 9 sides. Particularly since in author commentary in DStP Rich Burlew says that in the next book (= BRiTF) we'll be "meeting one of the 9 sides we haven't met yet." and I don't see who else it could be.

Clearly, it was Buggy Lou and his slavers.

Sure, Belkar eliminated them almost as sure as we met them, but the Giant never said all of the nine sides would be major players.

[Fish]

I think the comment on nine sides is not to be taken literally, but as a way of saying "It's complicated ... more complicated than Team Evil vs Team Good."

[Gift Jeraff]

Seems safe to me to say that Tarquin & co. are one of the 9 sides. Particularly since in author commentary in DStP Rich Burlew says that in the next book (= BRiTF) we'll be "meeting one of the 9 sides we haven't met yet." and I don't see who else it could be.

Durkula and Hel.

[Snails]

I think the roaches are making a metaphoric Great Wheel joke. The nine sides are: [Good, Neutral, Evil] X [Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic] = the nine alignments.

Which boils down to: "Everyone has skin in this game, whether they know it or not."

[Tom Lehmann]

I think 6 sides are pretty well set:
* OOTS, possibly aided by some allies (O'Chul? Lien? Bandana?)
* Xykon
* Red Cloak / Dark One, possibly some allies among the Pantheons
* MITD, possibly aided by O'Chul and Lien
* IFCC
* Snarl

I think these can probably be ruled out:
* Team Hinjo
* Elves
* Gobbotopia
* Team Tarquin
* Amun-Zora
* Julio
* Greysky Thieves Guild
* Gnomes
* Linear Guild
* Hel
* Dwarves

All of these matter for OOTS character growth along the way, but I doubt they will be sides in the final conflict.

Hel may look like a major player now -- just as Team Tarquin did in the middle of book 5 -- but I suspect she won't be by the end of book 6. She will have played her narrative role in Durkon's story and will then move into the background for the final, many-sided conflict.

This is similar to how the Elves looked like a possible side for a while and then moved into the background, along with Team Hinjo and Gobbotopia. Some members of Team Hinjo (O'Chul, Lien) may be in the final conflict either as OOTS allies or to motivate the MITD, but I doubt that Team Hinjo as a "side" will be present. They have served their narrative presence.

Similarly, Team Tarquin served their narrative purpose in book 5. They may factor into the Epilogue and, before the final conflict, interact with the Snarl some -- possibly goading it into action or giving it information -- but I don't see them being a "side" in the final conflict.

One thing that undermines this view is Rich's preview comment in book 4 for book 5 that in book 5 we would meet one of the "9 sides", a side "previously unrevealed". This would suggest that either Team Tarquin or Hel is a side and not just a vehicle for personal growth. If so, my bet is on Hel, not Team Tarquin, or possibly the Snarl itself, with this comment being a bit of sly misdirection.

Some possible sides:
* Pantheon Gods
* Order of the Scribble, Serini
* Tiamat/Dragons/Kobold Races
* Someone still to come?

Maybe the Pantheon Gods -- threatened by Redcloak and the Dark One -- will spring into action at some point, or maybe the bounds of reality will start to fall and they will be able/forced to take direct action in the final conflict, or maybe they just count as part of the Order's side. But, they're a possible 7th side, as they clearly have a stake in the final conflict.

Maybe, Serini is still alive and knows that the Gates are failing and will intervene to help contain the Snarl. Maybe, she will seek revenge on Vaarsuvius for the death of Girard's descendants.

Spoiler: Blood Runs in the Family

Show

Which could be why she did not respond to Vaarsuvius's sending spell.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Maybe, she will try to free the spirits of Dorukan and Lirian from Xykon's gem of soul-trapping.

She's another possible side with her own separate goals. That being said, this is OOTS's story, so having Serini show up just to aid them vs. the Snarl late in the day seems structurally wrong to me. But, to show up either out for revenge or some other goal could occur.

Tiamat may be a Pantheon member, but anyone who can bestow the gift of prophecy (the Oracle) and be the patron of a teleporting/resurrection-capable order (the people who raise the Oracle) is surely a force to be reckoned with. Right now, she has a truce of sorts with the IFCC, but she might start taking independent action at some point, becoming another side in the final conflict.

There's always the possibility of a major side that hasn't been introduced yet, but book 6 is getting pretty late to add a completely unknown "side". Maybe, the Dwarves -- due to the outcome of the Durkon/HPoH/Hel/Thor conflict in book 6 and possibly due to a connection to Kraagor -- will be roused into action and become an independent side in the final conflict. Maybe, Loki will be revealed as playing a deep game and representing yet another side.

Another possibility might be the denizens of the various planes, who presumably also have a stake in the final conflict. The MITD could be the "hook" that brings them into the picture late.

I see Sabine more as a "wildcard" that could screw up the IFCC's plans, rather than a full-fledged side, so I didn't list her. But she could conceivably count as a separate "side".

[Quild]

I thought for a while that the IFCC weren't one happy evil family and that there would be betrayal.
I was kinda disapointed to see that their option on V's soul didn't allow them control of V (or that it wasn't their intention at least) and that it was Cedrik who used his time first.

My expectation of the third one using his time to actually control V and go for his own goal did suffer of that.

I still don't get why they wanted the gate destroyed though. That's supposed not to fit with Snar'ls control.

[ti'esar]

I thought for a while that the IFCC weren't one happy evil family and that there would be betrayal.
I was kinda disapointed to see that their option on V's soul didn't allow them control of V (or that it wasn't their intention at least) and that it was Cedrik who used his time first.

My expectation of the third one using his time to actually control V and go for his own goal did suffer of that.

I still don't get why they wanted the gate destroyed though. That's supposed not to fit with Snar'ls control.

The Giant has said that with a few exceptions, he writes the IFCC Directors as fundamentally indistinguishable from each other. So a falling out between them would be very unlikely.

And we're not supposed to know why they wanted the Gate destroyed yet.

[kivzirrum]

Indeed--the idea, as I understand it, is that beginning with the conclusion of the Don't Split the Party arc, we are realizing that we don't yet understand the full extent of what is going on with the Gates, the Snarl, the IFCC, etc.

So learning the "what" and the "why" of the IFCC's true goals will likely be linked with further illumination as to what's going on.

[Fish]

The Giant has said that with a few exceptions, he writes the IFCC Directors as fundamentally indistinguishable from each other. So a falling out between them would be very unlikely.

I disagree; I think Rich's quote only meant to warn us not to read too much into what any one of them said. "Why did Cedric say XYZ? That's not chaotic enough, it should have been Nero," and so on.

They could have a falling out along alignment lines at some point, although I agree it's unlikely. I just feel it's unlikely for a different reason, mostly because we have no reason to suspect a conflict is brewing, but also because it's a complication that may not be necessary given all the other pieces in play.

[Xihirli]

I think I found out the IFCC's motivations.

The Snarl killed a pantheon of gods and everyone in the world. That's a whole lot of souls.

Either: The IFCC wants to kill the snarl and capture the souls of an entire pantheon, plus maybe a few billion other things
Or: They just want to kill all the good gods or something boring like that.