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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default First thoughts on party make up?

    Our group thus far is made up primarily of newbies. I am co-dm and the most experienced player in the group, but I wanted thoughts on our party so far. :)

    To start with, our group is made up of a gnome monk(LN), a human paladin, a human rogue(NE), a half drow druid(NG), a dwarven ranger(non-evil), and myself.

    I am playing a halfling cleric of death(the concept), NE, who is aspiring to lichdom and eventual godhood. Like many of the evil characters I have played in the past, he is affable, not an obvious monster. He conceals his status as a cleric, and attempts to get by on his charisma when he can. He's not the brightest(12 int), but he fancies himself a manipulator. He believes the ends justify the means and that a person's worth is measured by how useful they are to him, or how much he likes them. To the outside world, he presents a friendly persona. But, when he says he likes someone, he means it. He may even offer sincere advice... even if they're his enemy.
    Last edited by MonkeySage; 2015-02-21 at 02:07 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    I feel sorry for the paladin who is about to fall. Other then that the party looks balanced.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Looks like you're going to need backup characters, especially if you aren't loaded with alternate class features and substitution levels.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    There's a pretty big tier gap between the cleric and druid and the monk, paladin, rogue, and ranger. Depending on how those two classes are played, they could easily overwhelm a pile of tier 4 and 5's. Druids especially can transition really quickly from low power to ridiculous power with nothing but a change in tactics, either on a daily or round to round basis. Could be risky.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Yeah, I wouldn't call a party 'balanced' if it has both a monk and a druid.
    The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Yeah, the player knows that the rogue is evil, but I haven't revealed my character.

    DM and I used the opportunity to discuss the separation of player knowledge and character knowledge, hopes that the player can find a clever way to justify not "scanning" us, without meta gaming. We warned that if he knowingly associates with evil characters without intent to either kill or redeem, he'll lose his powers. That said, he is still interested in playing a paladin. Good for him. :)

    In the interest of allowing players a mostly unadulterated decision making process, I tried to abstain from influencing class choice. I mentioned that they can multiclass if they choose, but other than that tried to stick only to helping them roll their stats and allocate points.
    Last edited by MonkeySage; 2015-02-21 at 02:17 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Well if you want makeup you should have a rouge.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    As long as they are not ye old turn to wolf and be better then the fighter and cast divine awesomeness on myself. Also if the game is not purely hack n slash this party should work, and even then ive ran groups with similar make ups that ran fine. The pally and monk make the front line the rogue stabs folk from behind and as long as the cleric and druid stay casters and not i do this and be better then the pally its balanced. Now if he said that they were batmaning those two classes its not balanced. The monk is okay a little weak but can function okay in a normal non obtimizing munchkin game which i assume is not happenig since they are all newbies.
    Last edited by Thatwarforged; 2015-02-21 at 02:29 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwarforged View Post
    As long as they are not ye old turn to wolf and be better then the fighter and cast divine awesomeness on myself. Also if the game is not purely hack n slash this party should work, and even then ive ran groups with similar make ups that ran fine. The pally and monk make the front line the rogue stabs folk from behind and as long as the cleric and druid stay casters and not i do this and be better then the pally its balanced. Now if he said that they were batmaning those two classes its not balanced. The monk is okay a little weak but can function okay in a normal non obtimizing munchkin game which i assume is not happenig since they are all newbies.
    I would fear the casters far more if they were to play up their caster nature. A guy beating face is just a guy beating face, but someone with real appreciation for and knowledge of their list, and the will to use it, can be an absolute monster. This is especially true on a druid, because the animal companion and summoned monsters mean that you can still hit enemies with an animal shaped stick as you destroy the very nature of their existence with a few spells.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    I would fear the casters far more if they were to play up their caster nature. A guy beating face is just a guy beating face, but someone with real appreciation for and knowledge of their list, and the will to use it, can be an absolute monster. This is especially true on a druid, because the animal companion and summoned monsters mean that you can still hit enemies with an animal shaped stick as you destroy the very nature of their existence with a few spells.
    The OP is the one to worry about since he said their newbies the best things on the list to a untrained eye are cure and a couple damage and maybe some buffs. That is my personal expirence with new players anyway if they've played more then 10 sesions they may pick stronger spells if they notice but as long as they have low system mastery as most newbies do the tiers wont be as bad intill high levels that is. If the OP is using divine metamagic i would personally rethink that with the group your in inless you are making the other PC as well. I personally hope you are not teaching new players that the game is about who has the biggest stick.

    I have to say being a player who got his role usurped by the caster can be annoying and frustrating plus extremely boring and to new players a druid is a hippie mage and a cleric usually a healer. Since most bring in video game assumptions not clerics are what paladins really should of been.
    Last edited by Thatwarforged; 2015-02-21 at 03:07 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    DM and I used the opportunity to discuss the separation of player knowledge and character knowledge, hopes that the player can find a clever way to justify not "scanning" us, without meta gaming. We warned that if he knowingly associates with evil characters without intent to either kill or redeem, he'll lose his powers. That said, he is still interested in playing a paladin. Good for him. :)
    Sort of bad training to encourage him to either go straight to intra-party murder, try to play team cop/dictator, or go around with his head in the sand, though, unless you're intentionally grooming him for PVP heavy games.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    I won't comment on the crunch factor, since others have much better suggestions and insight than I do, so I'll speak for a moment about the fluff. In light of the fact that this is a group of newbie players, I think that it's poor form on your part (considering that you're both the co-DM and the most experienced) to conspire against the paladin from using his powers, or even putting a newbie player in that position to begin with.

    There's really no reason that the paladin can't use his detect evil at will - that's his class feature and something that he's meant to count on in order to use his abilities. In addition, assuming that he doesn't go around detecting evil on party members, eventually he's going to discover that you're evil simply because of the spell description claiming that it can identify specific numbers of evil auras after only two rounds. Yes, there's a area-of-effect limitation, but he'll probably start to get suspicious once you scurry away (meta-gaming, since to the best of my knowledge there's no outward sign when he activates it) whenever his player mentions that he's using it on a group of enemies or people.

    In my opinion, unless the players are experienced or have some kind of rock-solid back-story for why good and evil characters would be hanging around together, this is simply a recipe for something not fun to happen. More so considering that the party is composed of new players.

    Still, that's just my opinion from my own experience, and there's a chance that things will work out for the best. Just be aware of the pitfalls and the possible fallout from your decisions.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwarforged View Post
    The OP is the one to worry about since he said their newbies the best things on the list to a untrained eye are cure and a couple damage and maybe some buffs. That is my personal expirence with new players anyway if they've played more then 10 sesions they may pick stronger spells if they notice but as long as they have low system mastery as most newbies do the tiers wont be as bad intill high levels that is. If the OP is using divine metamagic i would personally rethink that with the group your in inless you are making the other PC as well. I personally hope you are not teaching new players that the game is about who has the biggest stick.
    Sure, if the druid never catches on to their capabilities, then things could plausibly be fine, but that's why I said it's risky. All it takes is picking a couple of good spells, or making use of summoning to any extent, or swapping out to a good companion, or picking a good form, or even some horrible combination of the four (Hey, bears are pretty cool. Now I'm a bear, and my companion's a bear, and here are some summoned bears, and lookit that, giant growth seems pretty good on bears) and the game is hurled into imbalance within a couple of rounds or an in-game day depending on the method. The cleric is less risky, because the OP can presumably control for that risk personally, though it's definitely something to keep an eye on.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    I'm going to try to, as a player, remain neutral. My character, for one, is not optimized. I've had little opportunity to play clerics, so unlike with wizards, i'm not even really sure how to optimize them. He can't use his most dangerous ability, channel energy, because he risks hurting his team mates in the process. He'd consider this a waste, since he chose to adventure with them out of the belief they were useful in the first place.

    Alignment itself isn't all that important to this campaign.

    As far as letting the player know that his character would lose his powers if he knowingly associated with evil characters, our method was just to simply present the facts. We didn't mention the kill or redeem bit. In that regard, the dm has stated that he's not going to be strict. After all, that wouldn't be fun, and would kind of defeat the purpose of our doing this. As for my own decision to play an evil primary caster, this was mostly a flavor choice. I just think the idea of commanding a group of undead is cool as hell. His main tactic early game is to... tag along, be helpful, poke things with his spear, and be a good little halfling. He's a terrible combatant. I don't want the other players to know i'm a cleric, at least not till they find out in game.
    I'm not really in it for the fights, though. I thought this character would just be fun to role play.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Sure, if the druid never catches on to their capabilities, then things could plausibly be fine, but that's why I said it's risky. All it takes is picking a couple of good spells, or making use of summoning to any extent, or swapping out to a good companion, or picking a good form, or even some horrible combination of the four (Hey, bears are pretty cool. Now I'm a bear, and my companion's a bear, and here are some summoned bears, and lookit that, giant growth seems pretty good on bears) and the game is hurled into imbalance within a couple of rounds or an in-game day depending on the method. The cleric is less risky, because the OP can presumably control for that risk personally, though it's definitely something to keep an eye on.
    Apologies did not notice the could be risky at the end of the first post. I agree that it can be risky in the few good choices but the druid wont know about natural spell most likely so he would have to pick cast or shift. About the animal companion as long as they start somewhat low level he wont get a bear. At higher level he might exchange animal companions though he might also get attached to his old one.
    Last edited by Thatwarforged; 2015-02-21 at 03:35 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    I thought this character would just be fun to role play.
    In a group where you were showing a bunch of newbies the ropes and let one of them pick paladin right off the bat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    I just think the idea of commanding a group of undead is cool as hell.
    Sorry to harp on you over this, but you do know that if you follow this path it'll bring you into direct conflict with the paladin, right? Assuming he doesn't kill you beforehand. With experienced players this could be fun, but with newbies it could definitely feel like you're trying to force his character to fall or even turn him to PvP. Best case is that he'll decide that he'll just change characters, but then, what have you accomplished with that? I'm just not sure where you're trying to go here with the group dynamic, mainly. What do YOU see happening? What would you WANT to happen? What's your ultimate goal as player/DM?

    Again, I believe that mixed good/evil groups can work, as can mixed paladin/evil groups (for a short time at least - working against a common evil, for example), but for the most part this is something to avoid unless you're a fan of party tension and PvP.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwarforged View Post
    Apologies did not notice the could be risky at the end of the first post. I agree that it can be risky in the few good choices but the druid wont know about natural spell most likely so he would have to pick cast or shift. About the animal companion as long as they start somewhat low level he wont get a bear. At higher level he might exchange animal companions though he might also get attached to his old one.
    Not knowing about natural spell is possible but kinda unlikely. It's one of the most obviously druid-centric feats in the DMG, after all, and once you see it it's pretty easy to understand how crazy it is. Even without that though, there's still a lot of power to be had at a moment's notice. As for the animal companion, bear was just an arbitrary example, because bears are the inevitable druid thingamajig placeholder. The power companion at low levels would be a riding dog.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    I'm not actually sure how it'll play out. If he does end up killing off this character due to reasons, I make new characters whenever I get bored so I've got plenty of back ups to choose from. In the mean time, I'm gonna try and maneuver myself out of the line of fire. It's gonna be a while before we get to that point.

    I made my own character before I knew he'd be playing a paladin, and have no intention of forcing him to fall.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    I'm not actually sure how it'll play out. If he does end up killing off this character due to reasons, I make new characters whenever I get bored so I've got plenty of back ups to choose from. In the mean time, I'm gonna try and maneuver myself out of the line of fire. It's gonna be a while before we get to that point.

    I made my own character before I knew he'd be playing a paladin, and have no intention of forcing him to fall.
    There are two separate but overlapping problems that are almost-certainly going to come up.

    One problem is conflict within the party--the paladin and the aspiring lich are going to fight to the death at some point. The question here is, is player-vs-player part of your group's definition of "fun." In this case, it's part of a long-running plot that arises organically out of the characters, and a lot of groups I've been in or swapped stories with would have a ton of fun with that.

    The other problem is the different power levels of different party members. A reasonably-competent druid player is going to outshine everyone except the cleric. She/he's a PC with a bear companion who can turn into a bear and summon bears. 3 bears > 1 full BAB PC. The cleric also has a good chance of outshining everyone except the druid--full armor, good attack bonus and weapons, and then a huge spell list to pick from.

    That's sometimes a problem with newbie groups, sometimes not. But in THIS newbie group, the two problems overlap. Even if the Paladin's player is looking forward to the big showdown between Thor and Loki, he's not going to be having fun when it turns into the showdown between Loki and Hawkeye or Coulson or Black Widow.

    If your group is okay with the campaign ending in a paladin vs necromancer showdown, then you probably have to do something to boost the non-spellcasting classes to keep up.

    You might want to let the mundane classes use the Gestalt rules. Let the Rogue and Monk gestalt Fighter, which gets them full BAB, d10 hit dice and bonus feats. The Paladin and Ranger are a little trickier, but there's a "Theophilite" in my sig designed to gestalt with other classes.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    I wouldn't worry too much about the casters. In a party of noobs, the big stupid fighter is the most powerful.
    Until players figure out how to break casters wide open by using the right spells, tactics , and optimization, they suck.
    Early on in my d&d career, we always had a wizard. And he was useless because we didn't have the system mastery that we do now and always used the worst spells in the book because they sounded cool.

    For a long time an 18str barb with power attack and a great sword that dealt 2d6+21 damage 2 times per turn was OMG BORKIN!

    ah good times lol.
    Last edited by bjoern; 2015-02-21 at 10:58 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: First thoughts on party make up?

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    Our group thus far is made up primarily of newbies. I am co-dm and the most experienced player in the group,

    To start with, our group is made up of a gnome monk(LN), a human paladin, a human rogue(NE), a half drow druid(NG), a dwarven ranger(non-evil), and myself.
    Never mix evil PCs and newbie players.

    Both the rogue and your character could be neutral and avoid the pvp drama to come.

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