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    Default The Complete Skirmisher

    What makes a good skirmisher? I.e., a character built around the skirmish-damage concept.

    The question is too broad, and too abstract, to fit on the build optimization thread, but I haven't seen it addressed elsewhere on this forum either, so - let's see if we can collect people's collective wisdom and insights here.

    Let me parse out what I think some of the relevant sub-questions are:

    What are the best races and stat priorities for a skirmisher?

    What are the best base classes (other than the obvious) for a skirmisher? E.g., would a dip into monk be helpful? What are the best PrCs?

    What are the best feat trees for a skirmisher? Spring attack seems a natural; what about TWF, or archery? What tactical feats are most useful?

    What are the most important skills for a skirmisher? Tumble seems pretty obvious; what else?

    If a skirmisher manages to get some spellcasting power - what spells should he/she focus on? Mobility buffs, damage buffs, AC buffs, battlefield control, area damage, target damage, save-or-suck...?

    What are some of the handiest magical items for a skirmisher?

    What opponents is the skirmisher best equipped to handle, operating alone? What opponents is the skirmisher worst equipped to handle? (The latter seems like it should include any creature without vital spots susceptible to skirmish damage).

    Probably the most fun question to answer - what maneuvers have you performed with a skirmisher that really stood out as awesome? E.g. feat combinations, using specific magical effects in specific situations to spectacular effect, controlling the battlefield in some especially cool way to trap the foe inside your zone of skirmishy goodness, etc.

    Most abstractly, what is the "theory" of a skirmisher? Strengths, weaknesses and bottlenecks. What is holding the skirmisher back? Lack of to-hit, lack of damage per attack, lack of attacks? Put more concretely, if the skirmisher were offered a +1 bonus to to-hit or a +X bonus to damage, what would X have to be to make the skirmisher indifferent between the two (this judges the relative importance of to-hit and damage; if the skirmisher is okay on damage but has a hard time hitting, X would need to be relatively large)?

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionari View Post
    What makes a good skirmisher? ...

    What are the best races and stat priorities for a skirmisher?
    This depends on what you want to do. IME, archery works well, once you can get greater manyshot. Otherwise, you're stuck with TWF until you can get into dervish.

    What are the best base classes (other than the obvious) for a skirmisher? E.g., would a dip into monk be helpful? What are the best PrCs?
    Playing it striaght is an option, but if you TWF, dervish(CW) is required. If you like, take the swift Scoundrel(or somesuch) feat from CS, allows rogue to stack with scout for Skirmish.

    What are the best feat trees for a skirmisher? Spring attack seems a natural; what about TWF, or archery? What tactical feats are most useful?
    Greater Manyshot. It's on the SRD, and it's what helps scouts get thier goodies.

    What are the most important skills for a skirmisher? Tumble seems pretty obvious; what else?
    Max Hide. Once you get HiPS, it will be il-nasty.

    If a skirmisher manages to get some spellcasting power - what spells should he/she focus on? Mobility buffs, damage buffs, AC buffs, battlefield control, area damage, target damage, save-or-suck...?
    You're probably best off with Self-buffs. Some SoS spells, e.g. Glitterdust, are helpful, but enlarge person is a better bet.

    What are some of the handiest magical items for a skirmisher?
    I've heard of an Item that allows another 5'step per turn. supposedly from the Item Compendium, this boon allows you to 5' step twice around a guy, turning on skirmish, and allowing Full attack. If your DM is drunk, try to get him to allow a Bracers of Lion's Charge to slip by him. 5/day costs 14,400.

    What opponents is the skirmisher best equipped to handle, operating alone? What opponents is the skirmisher worst equipped to handle? (The latter seems like it should include any creature without vital spots susceptible to skirmish damage).
    Lone slow guys without much range. He can backpeddle, circle around, whiltling them down with the mass skirmish. Fast things, or things with better ranged firepower will bring you down, as well as crit-immune baddies.

    That's all I can answer, as my experience with Scouts has been largely theoretical, almost no practical.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    The best skirmisher I've seen is a Thri-Kreen Totemist 11/Scout 7, with a whole rack of potions of girallon's blessing.

    Consider thus: With the correct soulmelds (girallon arms, unicorn horn, sphinx claws, urskan greaves/thunderstep boots), the girallon's blessing, and investiture into Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, and Snap Kick, you end up with the ability to full-attack with natural weapons at the end of a charge at minimum penalty.

    With those soulmelds, and considering the Thri-Kreen's natural weapons, you end up with eight claws, a gore, a bite, and a kick with the following base attack pattern: +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+15/+15/+15 (+Str+GMF). Each attack does (at least) 1d6 + 4d4 + 2d6 + Str, is power-attack-able, and nets you +2 to AC. Due to the Scout's Flawless Stride ability, you can also do it through difficult terrain, and also receive +10' to your landspeed, augmenting the Thri-Kreen's 40' to 50'...which means you can charge 100' through difficult terrain to unleash a bundle of painful natural attacks.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    For a decent magic item, Magic Item Compendium has the Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker - move have your base speed as a swift action. Would make you still be able to get a full attack in. Only once per day, but also only like 500gp.

    Plus, while it does take up the neck slot, you can wear as many different Chronocharms as you like at one time. Only one or two of the other ones are that great, though.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Hustle (PsiWar 2) lets you get an extra move action as a swift action. Combined with Spring Attack, your DM may let you pull off a Full Attack inside a Spring Attack.

    Move (Standard Action+Move Action=Full Attack) Action


    I hope that diagram thingy makes sense.
    Last edited by martyboy74; 2007-04-07 at 12:07 PM.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    i think barb is a good dip, adn reach weapons are never bad. spring attack obviously, and the improved skirmish feats.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=778312

    Or something similar to that build. Also check out the links in that main link.
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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurobara View Post
    For a decent magic item, Magic Item Compendium has the Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker - move have your base speed as a swift action. Would make you still be able to get a full attack in. Only once per day, but also only like 500gp.

    Plus, while it does take up the neck slot, you can wear as many different Chronocharms as you like at one time. Only one or two of the other ones are that great, though.
    Every Scout should have a lot of these by the sound of it.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Without being too cheesy, (Because Skrimish is such an easily abusable ability)
    I'd say what is good would be to take the feats to get a level in Master Thrower, and take the Double Throw (Possibly called something else?) ability that lets you throw two thrown weapons as a single action.

    Add Improved Skirmish from Complete Scoundrel and you've got an effective Skirmisher (which doesn't require level 15, odd collections of abused magic items, broken racail builds, or tons of odd dip classes to achieve.)
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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Using Complete Scoundrel Scout 3 / Ranger X is a great build. Full skirmish, plus spells, favoured enemy and the ability to skirmish those normally immune if they're a favoured enemy - get undead, constructs, oozes, plants etc. Archery style gives good extra feats - you get manyshot at CL9 and can take greater manyshot that same level.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Frankly, relying on Skirmish for damage is a bit silly. Skirmish is hard to set up so that it works with a full attack and doesn't do that many dice of damage. Why not just go for Sneak Attack? Twice the damage, much easier to get many hits with it off.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Frankly, relying on Skirmish for damage is a bit silly. Skirmish is hard to set up so that it works with a full attack and doesn't do that many dice of damage. Why not just go for Sneak Attack? Twice the damage, much easier to get many hits with it off.
    Point taken. Though I'm not sure how easily you can set up sneak attack mid-combat if you are acting alone, sans flanking. (It is obviously possible, just not sure if there are particularly easy ways of doing it).

    That said, this thread is about exploring how the skirmisher can be most effective, not exploring what class the skirmisher should have taken instead of scout etc.

    So, if relying on skirmish for damage is a bit silly - what would *you* do, Bears, as a skirmisher, instead of focusing on damage? What abilities does the skirmisher have (and let's assume a mostly-scout build) that lets him/her shine? Or, alternatively, under what circumstances do the skirmisher's abilities become more effective?

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmorArmadillo View Post
    Without being too cheesy, (Because Skrimish is such an easily abusable ability)
    Explain how you can make skirmish "cheesy."

    It is near impossible, the damage is just too low, and even when you do, it is still worse than a full caster. Additionally almost always a power attacker or a rogue will be doing more damage per round, and even if you can equal the same damage as one of those classes your hp and ac are going to be lower than a full fighter.
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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    As said before, a Scout 3/Ranger 17 is the way to go. Focus on archery, if for some reason archery is out, drop your bow and use your back up two handed weapon with lion's charge (have some pearls of power and have your cleric and wizard cast those weapon buffs on the weapon)
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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikkitosen View Post
    Every Scout should have a lot of these by the sound of it.
    Actually, it just got pointed out to me by a scout in my current group that they have to be on for 24 hours first to work. >_> So, unfortunately, can't just swap them out every battle. But still not a bad thing to have for in a pinch.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    scout class from complete adventurer, their whole concept is skirmishing.
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Frankly, relying on Skirmish for damage is a bit silly. Skirmish is hard to set up so that it works with a full attack and doesn't do that many dice of damage. Why not just go for Sneak Attack? Twice the damage, much easier to get many hits with it off.
    Well skirimish works even when your opponets are aware your there.
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by the_tick_rules View Post
    Well skirimish works even when your opponets are aware your there.
    While Skirmish does work when the enemy is aware of you, it is still much harder to set up than Sneak Attack, simply because of its short range. 30 ft is piddling range, and the AoOs you'll provoke will step up. The minor bonuses to AC you get just don't cut it.

    You can go some cheesy build that lets you take another 5 ft step a round, but that's cheese.

    Sneak Attack on the other hand, only requires a suitable buddy for you to flank the opponent AND you can full attack with it.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Frankly, relying on Skirmish for damage is a bit silly. Skirmish is hard to set up so that it works with a full attack and doesn't do that many dice of damage. Why not just go for Sneak Attack? Twice the damage, much easier to get many hits with it off.
    Greater Manyshot? Improved Skirmish (that's an extra 2D6 per arrow)? And for Sneak Attack you generaly have to go stand next to your target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artemician View Post
    While Skirmish does work when the enemy is aware of you, it is still much harder to set up than Sneak Attack, simply because of its short range. 30 ft is piddling range, and the AoOs you'll provoke will step up. The minor bonuses to AC you get just don't cut it.
    Scouts get Tumble.
    Last edited by Ikkitosen; 2007-04-08 at 07:03 AM.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis View Post
    With those soulmelds, and considering the Thri-Kreen's natural weapons, you end up with eight claws, a gore, a bite, and a kick with the following base attack pattern: +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+15/+15/+15 (+Str+GMF). Each attack does (at least) 1d6 + 4d4 + 2d6 + Str, is power-attack-able, and nets you +2 to AC. Due to the Scout's Flawless Stride ability, you can also do it through difficult terrain, and also receive +10' to your landspeed, augmenting the Thri-Kreen's 40' to 50'...which means you can charge 100' through difficult terrain to unleash a bundle of painful natural attacks.
    That, that is beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous. Now, what book is Totemist in? You just made the villain that my PCs will hate for long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranis View Post
    That, that is beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous. Now, what book is Totemist in? You just made the villain that my PCs will hate for long time.
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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Wasn't there a Ebberon web enhancement on the Wizards site that introduced mechanical roller skates, letting you 10-ft step instead of 5-ft step?
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    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Explain how you can make skirmish "cheesy."

    It is near impossible, the damage is just too low, and even when you do, it is still worse than a full caster. Additionally almost always a power attacker or a rogue will be doing more damage per round, and even if you can equal the same damage as one of those classes your hp and ac are going to be lower than a full fighter.
    Wizard polymorphs you into a Gryphon (or something else with pounce)
    Totemist
    Action Surge (2 action points for extra action; move then full attack)
    Mechanical roller skates mentioned earlier
    Dual Strike

    I've seen a level 8 scout, properly built, kill an Erinyes in one turn.
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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    If you take the Crossbow Sniper feat, you can skirmish (and sneak attack) from 60 ft away. Not the best option for weapon or feat usage, I know, but an option nonetheless.
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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmorArmadillo View Post
    1)Wizard polymorphs you into a Gryphon (or something else with pounce)
    2)Totemist
    3)Action Surge (2 action points for extra action; move then full attack)
    4)Mechanical roller skates mentioned earlier
    5)Dual Strike

    I've seen a level 8 scout, properly built, kill an Erinyes in one turn.
    1) This trick also works with a power attacker fighter, and he will still do more damage. Pounce gives the fighter a full attack too.
    2) Lots of natural attacks also works well if not better with a full attack fighter. You can power attack with natural weapons (and monk strikes) even though they are light weapons, the power attack ratio is identical to a one handed weapon.
    3) See 1 and 2
    4) See 1 and 2
    5) See 1 and 2

    So how is skirmish broken? Only way I can see you saying it is broken is to say power attack is also broken.
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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionari View Post
    Point taken. Though I'm not sure how easily you can set up sneak attack mid-combat if you are acting alone, sans flanking. (It is obviously possible, just not sure if there are particularly easy ways of doing it).
    To set up flanking all by yourself:

    1) Distracting Ember maneuvre, or any other ToB maneuver that denies your target a Dex bonus.
    2) Island of Blades + Cohort/Animal Companion/Summoned creature.
    3) Vexing Flanker, Adaptive Flanker, and then either a spiked chain or Island of Blades.
    4) Clarion Commander.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ionari View Post
    That said, this thread is about exploring how the skirmisher can be most effective, not exploring what class the skirmisher should have taken instead of scout etc.
    Stance: Press the Advantage = pretty much perpetual skirmish damage. Takes 9 levels of Warblade or Crusader, but then again, that's not really a bad thing.

    It's hard to get more than 2d6 Skirmish damage... probably not worth it to pick up more than one level of Scout and two levels of Highland Stalker, then maybe Unseen Seer, unless you're doing some kind of Daring Outlaw thing.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    If you want to play someone cagey rather than a full out damage dealer, spring attack + a reach weapon works pretty well. Run in, get a few extra d6's of damage, run out without ever getting AOOed.
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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    Quote Originally Posted by storybookknight View Post
    If you want to play someone cagey rather than a full out damage dealer, spring attack + a reach weapon works pretty well. Run in, get a few extra d6's of damage, run out without ever getting AOOed.
    Works great until the enemy you just hit but didn't kill decides to charge you. Charge allows him to use a double movement to reach you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bears With Lasers View Post
    Frankly, relying on Skirmish for damage is a bit silly. Skirmish is hard to set up so that it works with a full attack and doesn't do that many dice of damage. Why not just go for Sneak Attack? Twice the damage, much easier to get many hits with it off.
    Well, if you want it that way, just take Swift Ambusher from Complete Scoundrel as a Scout 3/Rogue X and get just about the best of both worlds.

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    Default Re: The Complete Skirmisher

    OK - some very helpful input about skirmisher as archer, and to a lesser degree about skirmisher as weapon thrower. Hats off to folks' ingenuity - and breadth of knowledge

    Now, what about the melee skirmisher? So far, we've had a couple of spell recommendations (glitterdust, enlarge person - presumably for reach purposes, and the everpresent polymorph), and some feat suggestions (e.g. dual strike), plus some ToB goodness; but not at the same level of detail as the archer-skirmisher builds that were linked to by some posters. Of course, a melee skirmisher might not be people's top choice for power-playing, but if you were playing one - and wanted to beat an erinyes at level 8, or whatever suitable challenge you fancied - what feat and spell combos would you pick up? I'm especially interested in non-ToB-based builds, though if you have a ToB build that you think is particularly clever, by all means showcase it here!

    Let me pose some concrete questions to start this off:

    1. What do you think of the acrobatic strike / improved acrobatic strike / acrobatic skirmisher feats? These require you to tumble through the foe's square (or through a threatened square) to get some benefits - is it worth it?

    2. Would it make sense for a skirmisher to invest resources (feat, magic) in tripping?
    Last edited by Ionari; 2007-04-08 at 04:49 PM.

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