KILL SIX BILLION DEMONS: Beginnings are false and I am a consummate liar.

[Narkis]

I don't believe Solomon would really abdicate for a second. No one will ever be nearly good enough, and so "regrettably", "for the good of his people", he will "begrudgingly bear the burden" of being their dictator for all eternity.

At worst, his talk of abdication is intended to deceive our boy Zaid. At worst, he's deceiving even himself.

Also, I love these "boss intro" splash pages. They're all the greatest.

[Dragonus45]

Regarding his heroic willingness to forego leveling up even further so he can continue to grace his population by ruling over them as an absolute dictator, I am... extremely skeptical that the story as it has gone so far is going to contain anything remotely approaching a "woo, Solomon" theme.

I don’t agree with your interpretation of what I said and know if I would call that a “woo, Solomon” theory here. It’s basically calling him a moron so obsessed with his worldly works and personal reputation and power that he literally put ruling the universe on pause and then strangled the place to death anyways by refusing to accept literally anyone else as a capable substitute.

[Olinser]

I was responding to this:



To me, that would immediately make him a "bad guy" in the context of the narrative, all on its own, without the need for any further speculation (keeping in mind that "bad guy" doesn't mean "complete monster" and that he can still have sympathetic qualities, of course.)

Regarding his heroic willingness to forego leveling up even further so he can continue to grace his population by ruling over them as an absolute dictator, I am... extremely skeptical that the story as it has gone so far is going to contain anything remotely approaching a "woo, Solomon" theme.

If your question is "is it possible to portray an absolute dictator as heroic, even sympathetic, and his rule as just and worthy and good", my answer is yes, of course it is; an author can portray any worthless glurge that they want. They can set up the systems and situations in their work to justify anything, no matter how outlandish or absurd, even a position as vapidly stupid as that.

If your question is "is it possible to portray an absolute dictator in that light in a work worth reading - in one that contains any meaningful amount of truth or which takes an honest look at anything as it relates to our own world", my answer is a hard no. Like I said, I have too much respect for the author to expect Solomon to come out of this with his SMUG intact.

(And my interpretation would be that Mammon, who knows Solomon better than perhaps anyone else in the world, was correct in saying that he thinks himself the hero - he does honestly believe that the things he does are helping! He believes he is preserving his world in the face of six mad god-kings. He doesn't understand that there are seven mad god-kings in the room, and that his self-justifications are just the particular expression of his madness.)

Yes. Solomon seems to be the culmination of a famous quote by C.S. Lewis

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"

[Onyavar]

But the problem is, he newer finish vanquishing evil. Its not a philosophical concept. It is extremely real.
We have seen one dominion where worlds are more or less litterally consumed. We have another in utter anarchy under changing warlords. And a last who directly work towards exterminating the others.
Does anyone seriously that his realms would survive without SD acting as their protector?

I was not saying he should step down as a protector. I was saying he should step down as the benevolent tyrant.
To him, both concepts probably are the same, but I can see his worlds thriving under his protection without him being there and solving every little crisis.
He should have put himself into the role of a councilor or advisor for his governments.

Another thing is, he HAS stopped fighting evil, in the sense that he agreed to the compact. Yes that was reasonable, and no he can no longer claim to be a true hero.
L If his worlds prosper so much, he should be able to send relief to Mottom's worlds after she visited. His economy would be stronger than Mammon's, "his" governments could afford armies larger than his rivals, and eventually he could take on all the evil guys.

[lord_khaine]

I don't believe Solomon would really abdicate for a second. No one will ever be nearly good enough, and so "regrettably", "for the good of his people", he will "begrudgingly bear the burden" of being their dictator for all eternity.

At worst, his talk of abdication is intended to deceive our boy Zaid. At worst, he's deceiving even himself.

Also, I love these "boss intro" splash pages. They're all the greatest.

Well.. you can of course believe what you want. But there is nothing to support that theory.
Zaid is utterly in his power. And SD is likely the 3rd strongest being in all of creation at the moment. He dont need to lie to anyone.
And do you honestly think, after 10.000 years, that SD still think its FUN to play the same game of Civilization?

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"

I think thats one of the things its much, much easier to say when you have not lived under an actual robber baron.. or with the risk of your door being kicked in at night.. or with having friends/siblings taken away at random for god knows what, newer to be seen again.

I was not saying he should step down as a protector. I was saying he should step down as the benevolent tyrant.
To him, both concepts probably are the same, but I can see his worlds thriving under his protection without him being there and solving every little crisis.
He should have put himself into the role of a councilor or advisor for his governments.

We dont know how active a role he actually takes in running things beneath a macro scale.
And i honestly doubt someone could be found to handle the military stuff better. If anything, the problem is that no, there isnt anyone around who can half as good a job of running everything. And SD cant handle that though.
Its a bit like lending your handbuild, vintage jaguar out to someone who are short-sighted and has had his driver licence for 3 days, i suspect.

Another thing is, he HAS stopped fighting evil, in the sense that he agreed to the compact. Yes that was reasonable, and no he can no longer claim to be a true hero.
L If his worlds prosper so much, he should be able to send relief to Mottom's worlds after she visited. His economy would be stronger than Mammon's, "his" governments could afford armies larger than his rivals, and eventually he could take on all the evil guys.

And the problem is, thats a very, very bad idea. Just how much death and destruction do you think it would result in if all of creation went to war against each other?
Not to mention he unfortunately need those bad guys, to keep the worst guy in check.

[Eldan]

We'll have to see if Jagganoth is actually the worst.

[Shogo]

I admit I have trouble seeing what's so bad about Solomon David's portrayal thus far. If the society he built provides its people with safety and prosperity, what does it matter that the apparently immortal god-emperor is a totalitarian dictator? The only thing that should matter is if the people are well taken care of.

[mystic1110]

I admit I have trouble seeing what's so bad about Solomon David's portrayal thus far. If the society he built provides its people with safety and prosperity, what does it matter that the apparently immortal god-emperor is a totalitarian dictator? The only thing that should matter is if the people are well taken care of.

There are three questions of debate as I see them.

1) Between the demiurges which one would you want to live under?

SD is a clear answer IMO

2) Between the average person on earth and SD's empire, which one would you want to live under?

Is trickier, because we don't know how the average man or woman lives in his empire. We are all making assumptions. I'm assuming high tech for whatever reason, or if not tech than magic. At the very least I'm picturing plumbing. Regardless, if the assumption is that the average person is living in greater prosperity and safety than the average person on earth, then its also not a hard choice. Heirchary of needs and all that.

3) Between the average person in a liberal democracy and SD's empire, which one would you want to live under?

Same issue as 2 in regards to assumptions, but this is more of a question of how important the ideals of liberty and democracy are to you. Those who feel unsafe, poor or otherwise unrecognized or unrespected often rank these ideals below Safety, Wealth, and Status. If SD can provide (which we don't know as of the moment) than I can see people answering yes to 3.

[Iruka]

I admit I have trouble seeing what's so bad about Solomon David's portrayal thus far. If the society he built provides its people with safety and prosperity, what does it matter that the apparently immortal god-emperor is a totalitarian dictator? The only thing that should matter is if the people are well taken care of.

To some people, freedom and self-determination are important enough that they are willing to compromise in regard to safety and prosperity.

[halfeye]

There are three questions of debate as I see them.

1) Between the demiurges which one would you want to live under?

SD is a clear answer IMO

2) Between the average person on earth and SD's empire, which one would you want to live under?

Is trickier, because we don't know how the average man or woman lives in his empire. We are all making assumptions. I'm assuming high tech for whatever reason, or if not tech than magic. At the very least I'm picturing plumbing. Regardless, if the assumption is that the average person is living in greater prosperity and safety than the average person on earth, then its also not a hard choice. Heirchary of needs and all that.

3) Between the average person in a liberal democracy and SD's empire, which one would you want to live under?

Same issue as 2 in regards to assumptions, but this is more of a question of how important the ideals of liberty and democracy are to you. Those who feel unsafe, poor or otherwise unrecognized or unrespected often rank these ideals below Safety, Wealth, and Status. If SD can provide (which we don't know as of the moment) than I can see people answering yes to 3.

We (or at least I) don't know what the status of the average person on Earth is. There are a lot of people, but how they are doing on average is by no means clear, some may be monetarily poor, but doing alright on food and shelter, it all depends on what you think of as necessities.

[mystic1110]

We (or at least I) don't know what the status of the average person on Earth is. There are a lot of people, but how they are doing on average is by no means clear, some may be monetarily poor, but doing alright on food and shelter, it all depends on what you think of as necessities.

That's why I said "assumption is" - this entire thought experiment and debate becomes pointless if we don't assume one way or another. If we simply say "we don't know what average is on earth or the empire" then that takes half the fun out of it. So i'm assuming average in SD's empire is greater than average on earth. Even with everything we've seen in the comic AND what we've seen on earth, we don't know if that's true - but unless we assume it, we can't even be asking questions of "man SD's empire doesn't look so bad, would anyone want to live there?"

[Onyavar]

And the problem is, thats a very, very bad idea. Just how much death and destruction do you think it would result in if all of creation went to war against each other?
Not to mention he unfortunately need those bad guys, to keep the worst guy in check.

I know that. What I suggested is a builders' strategy for millenia. (While Solomon apparently pursues no strategy besides "keep the status quo and find a suitable successor").

If what I assume* is true, Solomon is not keeping up to date with the progress in the other Dark Empires, especially Jagganoth's.
[* This is based on the assumptions I can make from the available material in-comic and on tumblr. Just like with Mottom, we have no idea what is going in Solomon's 111.111 universes: How many are yet unconquered? How well are they interconnected with each other, with Throne and with other Empires? How large is the difference between the worlds, with regards to inhabitants, technology and wealth distribution? In both cases, we only saw 1 world as an example; even if we saw 5 worlds each we wouldn't get the proper picture I think. And we haven't seen the worlds of any other demiurges at all, only a few words from Abbadon. So it's all highly speculative.]

Solomon practices "good governance" in a bronze-age style, very hands-on and straight top-down. He treats everyone the same, probably also every world the same. Yes, that is a sign of pure goodness. But he apparently forbids his people to be evil, or even doing bad things. Babysitted that way, they can't genuinely achieve good things, either.
Also, instead of being the seeker of truth, power and compassion, that he claims to be, here we see him posing for a god: All-knowing (apparently wrong, why else would he need a secret service), all-powerful (heh, only in his domain) and all-bountiful (I'd grant him that, he tries but it's not effective). I'm curious for the lesson he will teach the work crew and their centurion there. Could it be that he is a great hero, but neither an inspired scholar nor an effective teacher?

If I were playing the demiurge game in his shoes, I would try to do differently, thanks to basic knowledge of socio-economic models from our world. I would rather set some rough rules, 10-commandments-style, and let "my" worlds experiment on their own, interpreting the good governance commandments however they want. I'd let the worlds experiment on their own, much like Earth but a bit more civilized. Because I am still interested in them doing good, my secret service would still alert me once societies are literally in flames. With all those universes to observe, I would still be extremely busy with resolving large-scale conflicts or outer threats, but less with overeager overseers and more with warmongering politicians that need to be set right (or deposed).
From those experiments, some of "my" societies will grow to be several of the following: advanced, just, wealthy, healthy, powerful, morally strong (the more of everything, the better). I'd take notes of what works really good. The next step is promoting and strengthening those values, while discouraging the developments that are injust, fragile, ruinous and backwards. And all that without being too heavyhanded, of course. Multiple models of good societies can emerge, there is not one universal way. Some may also devolve into less good and less just times, that happens and would also be observed.

Once I'd have stable good societies, being the good guy, I would try and export and promote these "business models" into other domains. Being advanced, being wealthy, having more power: That should be appealing to most demiurge's middle managers; but it always comes with a "price to pay": To blossom, a world needs reliable good conditions and justice. Only then, the benefits and profits can exceed those that you gain by plundering, destruction and exploitation.
It's a long shot, a very long shot, but if the campaign to promote the good societies trickles into more universes than just the Celestial Empire, I'd have done good in more than just my own universes. Jackpot, if important emissaries like 00001 (or even other demiurges) pick up the trick of good governance.

And that is what I described before as the hypothetical situation where I would imagine that Jagganoths military potential would be suddenly less dangerous, to everyone.

[lord_khaine]

And that is what I described before as the hypothetical situation where I would imagine that Jagganoths military potential would be suddenly less dangerous, to everyone.

Hmm.. i can see your model being possible. But i can also see it being far, far more hard to implement than copy/pasting a default system in place everywhere.
And im also not certain the others would have allowed him to do so in the early stages of the war, where everyone else were busy conquering stuff.
Just like a squad of 10 people would kick the ass of 10 soldiers from 10 different armies. And i do suspect its the same with worlds in an empire.

Of course, Jagganoth's military potential is not the real concern. His armies are just a tool.
The actual worry is Jagganoth himself. Due to being so stronger that the other 6 demi-urges together can only force him into a stalemate.

[Hamsandlich]

New Offering

Hmm, the plot thickens...

[rooster707]

Aaaaand cut to training montage? Please?

Interesting. Is Zaid looking for Allison? Or is he just waiting for her to come and rescue him?

[Olinser]

Aaaaand cut to training montage? Please?

Interesting. Is Zaid looking for Allison? Or is he just waiting for her to come and rescue him?

More likely Solomon has convinced him he's the 'real' King and that Allison is just coming to deliver the Key to him.

[Zyzzyva]

More likely Solomon has convinced him he's the 'real' King and that Allison is just coming to deliver the Key to him.

The "S***" and the look on his face in the last panel leave me more convinced that he really, desperately wants a rescue.

[5a Violista]

Personally, I kinda read that as worry: Zaid gets to hang out with Super-Buff Super-Macho Solomon, and he probably knows the universe is worse off than what he's seeing while under Solomon's care, but he knows Allison is also wrapped up in this mess and likely somewhere less privileged (if she's not already dead by metal-angel or one of the other god-kings)...

...so, I kinda read that as him worrying about her. Sure, to her he was just a hookup to lose her virginity, whom her roommates disliked and who got captured by insane heavenly god-kings. But to him, she's the kinda-awkward girl who trusted him enough to coach her through their first time, when suddenly they were interrupted and, as he later found out, she was taken by an opposing (and beheaded) faction to the guys who took him.

He's doing fairly alright under the protection of an authoritarian even if he's not given the freedom to leave; I assume he already knows this protector and his god-king pals are after her. In my mind, it makes sense in context that he's worried about her.



((No, I don't think he's waiting for Allison to come and deliver the key to him: After all, a few pages ago Solomon himself told Zaid was currently the inheritor of nothing and that's why he's interesting and is kept around; not to mention how half the panels that has Zaid responding to Solomon has a subtle "I don't like you" dig in it. See: ""Do the people know you keep prisoners?", "Am I free to leave?" It seems like Solomon either doesn't notice these digs (treating them as honest questions that Zaid's curious about) or ignores them (treating Zaid as not worth punishing)))

[Aquillion]

Does Solomon even know about Allison yet? Mottom only learned about her when she popped her head up, and would have been careful to keep that from leaking because it could endanger the balance of power. Incubus knows but obviously has no reason to tell anyone yet, since that's his advantage over the other Demiurges. Jagganoth knows, presumably via Incubus, but, again, has no incentive to tell anyone. Nobody would have found out in Yre, since Allison didn't do much that anyone saw and was unconscious for the battle.

Presumably people know that someone is running around with a key. But I'm not sure it's public knowledge that the person with the key is Zaid's girlfriend or that her key is the master key Zoss had.

[Onyavar]

So, how does Zaid even know that Allison is around in "his" crazy abduction adventure?

We know he...
- was dragged away from her bedroom kicking and screaming
- was naked and unconscious during the Concordance meeting, where Allison wasn't mentioned anyway
- was bought by Solomon from 00001 before Allison even broke into Ynamon
- was dressed and got his liquor tea in Solomon's empire, probably with a rough introduction where he is
- the only demiurges that currently know about Allison are Incubus, Mottom and presumably Jagganoth

At least, that is what is shown on-panel.

So, there is no reason why Zaid should even assume Allison was abducted together with him, or went after him. Unless someone told him so. Just, who?

[Zyzzyva]

So, there is no reason why Zaid should even assume Allison was abducted together with him, or went after him. Unless someone told him so. Just, who?

I mean, Occam's Razor says SD. *shrug*

[Eldan]

Could just be that SD has some capable spies, yeah.

[Onyavar]

Could just be that SD has some capable spies, yeah.

Sure, a spy on Throne would pick up a lot of rumours, alright. And by my guess, some weird things happen around Throne every other week (although not an outright war, no).

With a capable spy network, it should be possible to link the famous rumor-surrounded Hell-71 incident with the blond devil-binder, Magister Usagi, in the Void (IF magisters Vax and Ando are in employ of SD?), with the blond girl in Mottom's summer palace (emissary Saharus was present there), with the brown-haired little girl present at her court reception, and with the erratical behaviour of Mottom after the Battle of the Teacups. If they are really capable, they even traced her back to Throne and the Heist (but to most outsiders, the whole conflagration must have looked just like Mottom picking a fight with Mammon). Even so, "Mottom attacked Mammon after THAT girl visited her" should be reason enough for SD to get involved if he suspects "the girl" to have the key that Zaid is missing.

Hm-mmmh. So, let's assume that Solomon IS informed that a mysterious, very powerful girl is running around currently, and let's assume he suspects her to be the bearer of the key. Would he confront Zaid with what is essentially a rumour, would he do that off-panel (!), and would Zaid recognize Allison from the reports?
It is either that, or Zaid jumped to the conclusion that Allison is around, on his own.

[mystic1110]

- the only demiurges that currently know about Allison are Incubus, Mottom and presumably Jagganoth

Jaggonoth knows - Incubus informed him. And Jadis knows, because she knows everything.

Only ones out of the loop at Gog and SD, and SD seems to know since Zaid seems to also know.

[5a Violista]

It is either that, or Zaid jumped to the conclusion that Allison is around, on his own.

That's a fair assumption he could make.

Demon-riding metal knights crossed dimensions and kidnapped him for the apparent reason of simply being there when they beheaded a guy, and there's nothing special about him. They could've easily gone back and taken her, as well. Alternatively, 1-7 panel 5 could've happened just before Zaid vanished, so the last thing he saw of Allison was that a beheaded person was reaching out to her and so he suspects that something happened.

Or, alternatively alternatively, part of the worry could be "I don't even know if you've also been taken somewhere to this multiverse, or if you're just traumatized at home after seeing your boyfriend be kidnapped by demon-riding things, or even if you're still alive." The Where are you question could be implying that he doesn't know if she's safe at home or if she's somewhere in the same place as him.

[Eldan]

Sure, a spy on Throne would pick up a lot of rumours, alright. And by my guess, some weird things happen around Throne every other week (although not an outright war, no).

With a capable spy network, it should be possible to link the famous rumor-surrounded Hell-71 incident with the blond devil-binder, Magister Usagi, in the Void (IF magisters Vax and Ando are in employ of SD?), with the blond girl in Mottom's summer palace (emissary Saharus was present there), with the brown-haired little girl present at her court reception, and with the erratical behaviour of Mottom after the Battle of the Teacups. If they are really capable, they even traced her back to Throne and the Heist (but to most outsiders, the whole conflagration must have looked just like Mottom picking a fight with Mammon). Even so, "Mottom attacked Mammon after THAT girl visited her" should be reason enough for SD to get involved if he suspects "the girl" to have the key that Zaid is missing.

Hm-mmmh. So, let's assume that Solomon IS informed that a mysterious, very powerful girl is running around currently, and let's assume he suspects her to be the bearer of the key. Would he confront Zaid with what is essentially a rumour, would he do that off-panel (!), and would Zaid recognize Allison from the reports?
It is either that, or Zaid jumped to the conclusion that Allison is around, on his own.

Hm. That made me go back to the very first pages, since i wasn't sure of the sequence. Zaid is taken away after Zoss is beheaded, but before Allison gets the key. Presumably, he doens't see her get it. However, he has at least been told that he should have power, but that he doesn't have it. He could assume that the power had to go elsewhere, in which case, she's the logical conclusion.

[Smurfton]

I find it somewhat reasonable to assume that Allison would also get abducted when she was in the same room.

Seems like we have our answer on another way that Solomon isn't all that great: as he said earlier, he is the law. Much like UN-Medam, nobody breaks the law (or, say, his respect for citizens) in front of him, but the moment he isn't capable of enforcing it, the law breaks down. It isn't self sustaining, even without attacks by other demiurges.

[lord_khaine]

Got an interesting bit in the twitter about Ki Rata.

Ki-rata is the most rigorous, vicious, and powerful martial art in the multiverse. It is essentially a superweapon. Its masters are chiefly concerned with becoming powerful enough to stop other people from learning it and not to practice it themselves. When they must teach it to a student, that student must swear never to actually use it. It is taught chiefly so that there are those among the living who recognize it and know its shape and are powerful enough to kill someone who learns it by themselves.

Seems like we have our answer on another way that Solomon isn't all that great: as he said earlier, he is the law. Much like UN-Medam, nobody breaks the law (or, say, his respect for citizens) in front of him, but the moment he isn't capable of enforcing it, the law breaks down. It isn't self sustaining, even without attacks by other demiurges.

And oh god of course..
SD does a genuine generous thing. Giving his men the day off while he personally completes their work by hand.
So of course someone is going to find something weird to complain about.
I mean of course the Law will be broken once in a while. The only way to avoid that is to remove the free will of everyone.
Though of course thats also only speculation. We dont have any sort of evidence pointing towards the law not being self substaining.

[Olinser]

Got an interesting bit in the twitter about Ki Rata.





And oh god of course..
SD does a genuine generous thing. Giving his men the day off while he personally completes their work by hand.
So of course someone is going to find something weird to complain about.
I mean of course the Law will be broken once in a while. The only way to avoid that is to remove the free will of everyone.
Though of course thats also only speculation. We dont have any sort of evidence pointing towards the law not being self substaining.

It's not a generous thing. It's a narcissistic display of his power. If they were working that hard they're clearly undermanned with a foreman who thinks its acceptable for them to massively overwork. THAT is the actual problem that needs to be solved.

A REAL leader would have figured out any of a number of solutions to continue the construction without adversely affecting the labor in the future.

Instead Solomon pulls a, "LOOK AT HOW AWESOME I AM", and does one day of work for them.

What happens tomorrow.

Tomorrow they're going to go right back to being undermanned and overworked.

[tyckspoon]

And oh god of course..
SD does a genuine generous thing. Giving his men the day off while he personally completes their work by hand.
So of course someone is going to find something weird to complain about.
I mean of course the Law will be broken once in a while. The only way to avoid that is to remove the free will of everyone.
Though of course thats also only speculation. We dont have any sort of evidence pointing towards the law not being self substaining.

The main thing I'm curious is how it works where Solomon David isn't. I can't help but feel that building a wall of a colosseum is perhaps not the best use of time of one of the rulers of 1/7th of the universe.. what else is going on that would better demand his attention? Is he just showing off how good and fair he is for Zaid, so that he's in a better position when Zaid eventually comes into the power he's supposed to have as the Heir? Is he over-focusing on this one 'perfect' work, leaving the rest of his 100,000+ dominions to potentially wither under his delegates? I think a lot of the cynicism is that we're all waiting for the other shoe to drop on this, as it eventually must for Allison to come into conflict with him.