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    Default Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Okay, here's the deal - I'm writing a magipunk/cyberpunk setting, detailed here. A major portion of it is using Kellus' Gramarie system, which I've updated to PF and modified here (if nothing appears to be in a folder, refresh the page. It's a problem with Google Drive). In this setting, I'm using a boatload of homebrew and errata to allow for a magipunk/cyberpunk feel to enter Pathfinder. Here's the folder I'm storing all of it in.

    So - I'm looking for suggestions on modifications to what I've already got and suggestions for things I should add. This is an entirely mechanical thread. World-building stuff should go in the other one.

    To-do list:



    I'd also appreciate links to any homebrew other people have done that might fit the setting. I'll ask their permission and link to the work beforehand, ofc.

    For spaceship rules, my first thought is to treat the ship as one giant creature, with some/all of its stats set as null, basically making it a big bag of hitpoints. Thoughts?
    Last edited by RFLS; 2015-02-27 at 01:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Have you seen the Technological Equipment? It's somewhat new, so I figured I'd point it out.

    Hmm, I'd probably look at Naval ship combat first, and look for inspiration there.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    I'm reading through the Technological Equipment stuff right now; it seems as though there are a lot of rules that are referenced that aren't on the SRD. Is that the case, or am I missing something? (Specifically, rules concerning charges and implantation)

    The naval combat rules look spot on, but I think I'll end up altering Gramarie's Eldrikinetics to mesh with them a bit better. Thoughts?
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Playable A.I race in the spirit of the Geth, admittedly, sloppy and in need of serious tune up and stream lining: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388884

    Currently I'm looking at doing a total rewrite. System was originally based off of D20 Future's Robot Rules, but I'm looking to ditch that for a more streamlined and system. I want to ditch more than a couple of things in the original, antiquated design.

    It's a future setting, you should literally let your players play robots and customize their bodies to insane degrees. I am currently testing the race in a campaign and it's not too broken in my estimataion, but I understand that I haven't really put it under a battering ram of testing so my data might not be valid.


    I am also currently building organic equipment under the sig. Hasn't been updated for a while though, working on the upgrading rules.


    Also, I believe charges are explained under gear in the Battery description.
    Last edited by Almarck; 2015-02-24 at 01:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Refreshing isn't helping.
    I'm quite interested in this, mostly because gramarie. In case you aren't aware, gramarie is in the middle of a (long, tedious) update, to a system that will fix most of its surviving problems. Feel free to join the cause if you've interest in the system.

    Also, this may help? I really like this class.

    I suggest, with a setting using subsystems as vast as gramarie, you try to make things as coherent as possible, merging systems whenever its feasible.

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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    Refreshing isn't helping.
    Hm. I'll see what I can do. Do you have a Google account that you're logged into? I don't think it matters because I have it set to allow the folder to be seen by anyone, but it's worth trying, I suppose. Just in case it's some miscommunication, you're clicking on the link, and it's showing either files but no folders or nothing at all, you're refreshing the page, and it's not loading things anyway?

    I'm quite interested in this, mostly because gramarie. In case you aren't aware, gramarie is in the middle of a (long, tedious) update, to a system that will fix most of its surviving problems. Feel free to join the cause if you've interest in the system.
    I've seen the update (this one, right?), and while I'll probably end up stealing a little from it, I don't think I'll be using it as a wholesale replacement. It's not done, so I don't want to make assumptions about the finished product for the purposes of the setting, and then have to modify the modifications to the homebrew, if that makes sense. My only real objection is that they seem to have focused on allowing it to provide specific effects, rather than allowing the emergent properties of such a massive system produce the effects for them. Basically, ignoring the KISS principle.

    Also, this may help? I really like this class.
    That looks a lot like this, which I've already included in the setting. I'll definitely read it over, though; if it brings something new/is better written, I'll include it or use it as a replacement.

    I suggest, with a setting using subsystems as vast as gramarie, you try to make things as coherent as possible, merging systems whenever its feasible.
    Absolutely; definitely agree. I think any class I write with any sort of technical leanings will lean heavily on Gramarie; one I'm already considering is a class built around dealing with EIs (specifically, giving it the ability to rewrite their programming, lie to them, etc).
    Last edited by RFLS; 2015-02-25 at 04:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Question: for assembling spaceships have you considered a "hardpoints" or "segments" system?

    Basically I am thinking maybe instead of treating spaceships as one big "creature" there's all this different sections and such representing a room or a large set of rooms.

    this allows among other things having "subsystems" that can be damaged independent of the ships hull.

    the ship itself has hitpoints representing the total damage it can take before breaking up. Hit point damage to segment affects the hull for an equal ammount.

    mostly that's just me thinking that spaceships should be complex though and more of a vehicle than an actual creature.

    What I do think you should do above all else is have the ship have "base attributes" for everything representing automatic systems including its own bab. Players can take control of systems by getting to the right consoles and replace the ship's statistics for using that weapon or systrm much as say jumping into the seat of a gun turret or drooping into the pilots seat. This allows people aside from the pilot to do things and contribute to fighting off an enemy without say, needing to worry about boarding actions.

    The indie game FTL illustrates, albeit ovely simplistic, what I think a ship be represented in game form.
    Last edited by Almarck; 2015-02-25 at 05:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Quote Originally Posted by Almarck View Post
    Question: for assembling spaceships have you considered a "hardpoints" or "segments" system?

    Basically I am thinking maybe instead of treating spaceships as one big "creature" there's all this different sections and such representing a room or a large set of rooms.

    this allows among other things having "subsystems" that can be damaged independent of the ships hull.

    the ship itself has hitpoints representing the total damage it can take before breaking up. Hit point damage to segment affects the hull for an equal ammount.

    mostly that's just me thinking that spaceships should be complex though and more of a vehicle than an actual creature.

    What I do think you should do above all else is have the ship have "base attributes" for everything representing automatic systems including its own bab. Players can take control of systems by getting to the right consoles and replace the ship's statistics for using that weapon or system much as say jumping into the seat of a gun turret or drooping into the pilots seat. This allows people aside from the pilot to do things and contribute to fighting off an enemy without say, needing to worry about boarding actions.

    The indie game FTL illustrates, albeit ovely simplistic, what I think a ship be represented in game form.
    I think you're right about hardpoints. I'll see what I can do about writing something up. The biggest hurdle I can see is getting it to interact with Gramarie; especially since living ships are explicitly a thing in this setting. I might just abstract Gramarie into its creation with a bit of handwavium. Maybe a feat that says "required: (some amount of eldrikinetics, biollurgy or Craft Construct, and arcanodynamics), benefit: you can craft ships, with -these- time/material constraints, using the rules written -here-."

    Hardpoints I can think of off the top of my head:

    • Weapons:
      • Laser battery
      • Missiles
      • Flak
      • etc.
    • Engines
    • Armory
    • Power generator
      • Pholgiston
      • Acid
      • Nuclear
      • Probably import some of PF's stuff.
    • Cockpit
    • Hangar/storage bay


    Ofc, by taking things like hangar multiple times, the hangar would simply get bigger (or you could have more of them).
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Well. I had an entire reply eaten up by a bad connection.

    To boil things down I am thinking each seperate weapon or group of smaller weapons (anti fighter point defense for one) on the ship needs a seperate room for it. Drone and fighters store rooms would simply be another type of room. I also think weapons systems of the same type say lasers on bigger ships do more damage or something to make them worthwhile and not get wrecked by action economy. Think of the difference in capability in a dreadnought and a frigate

    Also I think that to determine which subsystems get damaged, on the attack rolls, a dice is rolled based on the ship size (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20). Also on the super smallest ships, this means that there's barely room on anything else since the control roon and engines take up space but I think that's acceptable given that they'd be just above fighters at that point.

    Speaking of fighters I think those need their own subsystem. They're so complicated to figure out when you try to build capital ships. It's like building a swarm. They're too small to matter.

    Other fun hardpoints:
    Armor:divert damage dealt to adjacent subsystems to itself. Maybe gets an adjacency bonus that nets it extra DR and hitpoints with other armor sections
    Force fields:regenerating hitpoints
    Reactor:not sure yet but maybe providing extrapolate in some fashion, like bonus dice.
    Last edited by Almarck; 2015-02-25 at 06:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Here's what I've got so far. I think it'll allow for fighters all the way up to capital ships.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Do you have a Google account that you're logged into? I don't think it matters because I have it set to allow the folder to be seen by anyone, but it's worth trying, I suppose.
    Yup.

    I've seen the update (this one, right?)
    No, not that one. The new one isn't on the boards anywhere, as far as I know. That update is completely finished as far as I know, unless you can point something out. Also the changes will be mostly to the bookkeeping elements, and won't need any changes to the setting.

    My only real objection is that they seem to have focused on allowing it to provide specific effects, rather than allowing the emergent properties of such a massive system produce the effects for them.
    I need an example, because that is quite the opposite of how I think of gramarie. I've also never heard of the KISS principle.

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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    Yup.
    Blerg. Alright. I'll start linking specific pages while I try to sort this out. Links'll go in the first post.

    No, not that one. The new one isn't on the boards anywhere, as far as I know. That update is completely finished as far as I know, unless you can point something out. Also the changes will be mostly to the bookkeeping elements, and won't need any changes to the setting.
    Where is the new one? I'm curious to see it.

    I need an example, because that is quite the opposite of how I think of gramarie. I've also never heard of the KISS principle.
    Which bit is opposite? That it's supposed to be simple with emergent properties, or that the update I linked is too specific? For the first one, it's just a generalization - none of the principles are overly complicated; I think Eldrikinetics is the most complicated it gets. It only really gets complex when you start linking things together, which is the intent as I understand it. If it's the second one, I suppose it's a matter of taste.

    The KISS principle is Keep It Simple, Stupid (not calling anyone stupid; the opposite, really). It's an old engineering phrase to remind people that complicated is often worse than simple.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    I appologize for the length of this reply. I am quite... zealous when it comes to ship building. I tried making a system for it several times in the past few years, all of it failed and I lack access to my old notes. Needless to say, I fear that you'll fall prey to the same problems I have met when trying to design this system. I never posted it online because, I ended up canning the whole project due to frustration. This is why I am so interested in providing critique on ship building specifically.

    Mostly, I find myself leaning towards for more abstraction than simulation in many parts to improve gameplayability as a result of the experience I had with the topic. Simply put, I do not feel it is neccesary to worry or list certain rooms or things Subsystem damage: yes, but individual crew quarters: no.

    You're free to discard my opinions and recommendations, but bear in mind, alot of the things that you've listed out in the brainstorming are things I tried doing myself.


    Note: I've spoilered the original reply as it was written before I realized that you set up a table indicating "room" numbers. Some of this is irrelevant if you decide to cling to that idea, though I still feel certain parts might be relevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    Here's what I've got so far. I think it'll allow for fighters all the way up to capital ships.

    I don't recomend using the same system for fighters.

    Believe me I tried it once when I tried to homebrew something for a different system. The main problem is... how do you allocate size and space for that thing? It's hard enough when you do a super tiny frigate, but a fighter because of its small size is really best described as a single ship with changeable weapon systems. Except for in fighter battles, subsystem damage is unimportant for individual fighters.

    Have you thought of a method of setting up "Random damage" to subsystems? Mostly, I brought up limiting sizes based on available dice (small as d4s, large as d20s) as a balancing point between playability yet allowing a complex system of allocating damage to a room or set of rooms. In short, whenever attacks hit, a dice with each facing representing a room in the ship is rolled and the result on this dice is the room that gets hit by the attack.

    So to exemplify: on a d4 light frigate: 1 is control, 2 is weapons, 3 is shield generator, and 4 is thrusters/power (in many scifi settings I've come across, I find that many people just put the reactor the same place as the engine for the most power possible and treat them as the same "room")

    A bigger ship might have 1 control, 2-4 as weapons, 5 is science bay, and 6 is reactor/thrusters.
    Ship size determines what dice is used to allocate damage randomly. I think as a balancing factor, on the bigger ships, control and reactor/thrusters should take up more space, such as being rooms 1-3 and 18-20 on the biggest ships.



    I'm also not really too keen on having the weapons block set up the way you have it. Simply put, I think it would be better if we treated the weapons systems as a "mount" and have players or ship owners "equip" weapons in a similar manner as how D&D treats weapons. Mostly, this comes out to allow players to do things such as customize their weapons systems with more flexibility.
    Secondly, having "weapon mounts" justifies allowing us to just list the smallest "mount" a weapon system can be put in, and say installing a similar weapon on a large ship increasing damage by "1 step".
    I suppose I am simply spoiled in this regard. I like having settings with lots of different weapon customization choices for ships, one of my favorites Sword of the Stars has an absurd degree of flexibility on what certain weapon turrets do. The Ballistics tree features things like explosive rounds, "mass shotguns", mass miniguns... I short, I kinda want there to be more weapon choices than just those 3 that you present, sorry.

    Oh, and I dislike the "cooldown" mechanic of the missiles and ballistics. If the idea is to allow people to man these systems so that multiple players can do something while in ship-to-shop combat, putting long cooldown times on weapon use is not useful. Maybe for "siege weapons" that the pilot controls, but not every missile system is going to be a made super big.

    But enough about weapons, I've talked long about that enough. I'll leave that alone if you feel it's unneeded.


    I think we should merge some rooms together, for simplicty. While I get simulation is important, I think we might want to do it because it means we can simplify things a great deal.

    Engine and Power should be the same room. Most settings use the drive linked directly to a reactor core so the drive gets the most juice.

    We should track "Hab blocks" instead of individual private rooms. Depending on the ship scale (such as say mile long ships) listing out how many individual rooms there are is tedious and offers no real advantage. Just having a housing block and saying that for a ship of size X, it has say 32 15x15 rooms, while a ship of size Y which is bigger has 60 of those same rooms.

    AI's should be part of the cockpit, because they're functionally the autopilot for the whole ship. Having them be part of the bridge make sense.



    Aside from that, we may need utility rooms, like science and engineering, so can you please put a placeholder for that?

    Aditionally, we should make it clear that some rooms are going to be bigger and have more stuff in them in larger ships. A small ship with a science facility "room" is probably a class room, meanwhile, a super big ship that devotes one of its slots to size has a whole school. I do not recomend we construct things via tonnage or have roomsizes be equal for all ship sizes, because if we do, we risk disallowing ships that are quite small or abnormally large.


    Also, I just noticed the starship rules table... I'm actually really unsure about having anything go over 40 rooms, mostly as a question of how would you allocate subystem damage to something like that (unless I missed something, I don't recall anything said about it being called shots. At the distances things in space work, it's a miracle to hit something, much less pinpoint a specific part of an object)... then again, I guess when you're big enough, we start using "sides" or "flanks".

    Regardless, if I am being a bother, you're free to tell me. I'll admit I am too zealous.


    Actually the more I think about it, maybe I should write up an example system of my own to contrast with yours. And improve overall design.
    Last edited by Almarck; 2015-02-27 at 03:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Hmm.... I might do away entirely with having to need crew quarters, and just assuming them, tbh. Instead, you just buy crew members as hirelings, with the cap being the listed number.

    For power, the reason it's currently separate is because it's to be used by all ship systems.

    As far as weapons go...we'll see. There are pros and cons for both sides there.

    I'm on my phone currently, so I'll post a more detailed response later.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Yeah, I know I went overboard. Don't worry about too much.

    My personal leaning on the weapons systems is more to give people choices on what weapons they can use, as even in star wars, there's point defense lasers, turbolasers, superscaled lasers. But as I have said, I am spoiled rotten by Sword of the Star's weapons list.


    I do like the idea of removing "essential" crew quarters though and I wish I had thought of just saying "crew maximums" all those years ago.

    Question, should we merge Hangar and Armory together as they're more or less the same thing?
    Last edited by Almarck; 2015-02-27 at 01:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    The new one is in fragments on the harddrives of various gramarie workers. If anything is public online, I don't know about it.
    Also, make sure you've read this.

    I'm not sure what parts we disagree on, so my take is that gramarie as a whole (and 2.0 as well, because its virtually identical to 1.0) is focused on small devices interacting to make more complex machinery. When there is a new principle that can only do one thing, its generally removed or reworked. Combining little devices is the whole point, to me atleast. It's this exciting mix of logic and creativity.

    Also, I've only skimmed the conversation below, but it looked like building spaceships with craft rules?
    Just pointing out that you can build anything (and if there's something missed, it can be made possible) with gramarie. The swiveling laser turrets can be made of a subspace containing two rotational eldk engines rotating the laser, (which itself can be made many ways, depending on the desired effect). If designing every aspect of the ship from scratch sounds less than fun, you can have predesigned blueprints or premade ships, without them needing to worry about it. It just means that if something tears into the wall, you can actually tell exactly what's behind it and what will go wrong. I don't know if that's fun for anyone else, but its very cool to me.

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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    In my case, the question is less justifying how to build spaceships and treating spaceships as a playable piece to allow players to do spacebattles, large scale spacebattles that don't don't bog down the game too much or require impossibly big battle maps. While I have little to no experience with Gramaire, I do not know if it can do that.

    Does your system have a codified mechanical system specifically built to feature spaceship to spaceship combat and distill it to "models" instead of spaceships being "terrain"? Think... Battlefleet Gothic or Sword of the Stars II style representation; spaceship as a whole "character". That's my vision of it, though I do not know if the OP shares the exact same goal. I assumed he did when he stated he wanted to it to be one big creature.

    If Gramaire does, well, it'd be nice.

    I probably should cool my jets either way. It's not my project to control over, it's RFLS's. So again I appologize
    Last edited by Almarck; 2015-02-27 at 02:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Gramarie can do spaceships in two ways, that I can think of off the top of my head.

    1. My way: Build it in excruciating detail and love that everything actually makes sense.

    2. Biollurgy: It's literally just a big flying creature fluffed as a space ship, that you can go inside and pilot and stuff.

    I'm not sure of the difference between terrain and model here, because it seems to me they'll be acting as both in all cases. They move around and maneuver around other ships like a model, and you run around inside them like terrain. You just don't do both those things on the same map.

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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    I'm not sure what parts we disagree on, so my take is that gramarie as a whole (and 2.0 as well, because its virtually identical to 1.0) is focused on small devices interacting to make more complex machinery. When there is a new principle that can only do one thing, its generally removed or reworked. Combining little devices is the whole point, to me at least. It's this exciting mix of logic and creativity.
    That sounds like what I was thinking, so I think we've got the same idea and just put it different ways.

    Also, I've only skimmed the conversation below, but it looked like building spaceships with craft rules?
    Just pointing out that you can build anything (and if there's something missed, it can be made possible) with gramarie. The swiveling laser turrets can be made of a subspace containing two rotational eldk engines rotating the laser, (which itself can be made many ways, depending on the desired effect). If designing every aspect of the ship from scratch sounds less than fun, you can have predesigned blueprints or premade ships, without them needing to worry about it. It just means that if something tears into the wall, you can actually tell exactly what's behind it and what will go wrong. I don't know if that's fun for anyone else, but its very cool to me.
    My plan with the spaceships was to do the following:

    1. Assign prices (with better pricing) to buying principles.
    2. Figure out how each part of a ship (turrets, engine, etc) would be created.
    3. Provide the relevant data (price and direct capabilities) for the purposes of ship creation.
    4. In a separate section, provide the specific "recipe," and a guide for how to make new components out of Gramarie, and how to integrate those into the simplified space combat rules.


    Basically, the goal is to have space combat easy to run, but deconstruct-able to any degree you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almarck View Post
    Does your system have a codified mechanical system specifically built to feature spaceship to spaceship combat and distill it to "models" instead of spaceships being "terrain"?
    That's the goal, yeah. I'll have more time tomorrow to work on it, so we'll see where it goes from there.

    I probably should cool my jets either way. It's not my project to control over, it's RFLS's. So again I appologize
    Don't worry about it. Enthusiasm is great; even if I disagree with what you're saying, it forces me to think about why I disagree, which is useful in itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    Gramarie can do spaceships in two ways, that I can think of off the top of my head.

    1. My way: Build it in excruciating detail and love that everything actually makes sense.

    2. Biollurgy: It's literally just a big flying creature fluffed as a space ship, that you can go inside and pilot and stuff.

    I'm not sure of the difference between terrain and model here, because it seems to me they'll be acting as both in all cases. They move around and maneuver around other ships like a model, and you run around inside them like terrain. You just don't do both those things on the same map.
    I don't actually currently have a plan for how ships will be built. In keeping with the spirit of simplification for the sake of ease of gameplay, I'm inclined to simply attach certain mods to playing with a standard ship vs playing with a living one, and then having the same mods be available to both.

    As far as terrain/models, you're absolutely right, I'm thinking they'll be both. No idea how to go about that, though. Thoughts on how to do the interiors easily?
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    So, here's a question, should we make creating the ship "map" as part of creation, or have that as a "as needed". Because if we don't, we don't need to do things like say... define the exact dimensions a given room needs to be, just provide recommended minimum sizes.

    Different games are going to have different ideas on what how big a Battleship is supposed to be. Sword of the Stars had absolutely clown car sized ships compared to most settings (lowest tier was smaller than our space shuttles), Warhammer 40k's smallest ships are gigantic in comparison.


    Also, this wasn't answered. Are we going to do "Called Shots" as part of the system? Or if not, do we have randomized subsystem damage? What are your thoughts on that subject? My main reason to have randomized damage dice is that "Called Shots" would make no sense in any range except point blank, even factoring missiles, but we gotta do... something about it having subsystems getting pinged.

    Also, want to know what your thoughts on the expansive weapon list that I put in the spoiler/weapon cool down things. You did kinda promise on answering that, sort of.



    And, how do we intend to handle really big capital ships with lots of weapons? Another reason I wanted the "20 rooms" cap was to allow for big ships without letting them roll 20 dice per combat round before rolling damage. The room cap means that the big ships have fewer "attacks" to throw everywhere, but because the weapons size up with the bigger ships (It actuallity, it may be multiple copies of the same gun treated a weapons bank, just treated as "one gun" for abstraction), they do proportionally more damage and thus combat speeds up faster and feels effective.



    Oh, and we should probably include space cities and space stations and "non-mobile ships". I think this we can agree on no contest.


    Anyways, glad to be of help, to know that I can atleast use my critism to your advantage. I'll try to be even more critcal without malice for better results. I do quite like the fact you've already got prices listed for over the top ship sizes. It actually looks like players can conceviably do "Starship only" games using that.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    I actually think gramarie type stuff in PF works best being done either through the systems in Ultimate Campaign and it's plug-ins. Have it so you can spend downtime and Magic to create magic science effects, or have some magic stuff come from adding in new Magical Improvement types, Buildings in the vein of the continual flame streetlights, and alter the aerial mass combat rules to function in space.

    Then you just add in the Technology Guide's stuff (which I find much easier to look through on the PRD rather than d20PFSRD) so you have cybernetics base. Though personally I prefer to just use arcanetics as wondrous items in the form of prosthesis with two main varieties, crude arcanetics (which use up the associated body slot) and masterwork arcanetics (which have a x2 increase to cost and price).

    Finally, eventually DSP will be releasing a book with more tech stuff, even a base class focused around using a mechsuit type device.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Quote Originally Posted by Almarck View Post
    So, here's a question, should we make creating the ship "map" as part of creation, or have that as a "as needed". Because if we don't, we don't need to do things like say... define the exact dimensions a given room needs to be, just provide recommended minimum sizes.
    I think ship map will be up in the air until it's necessary; it's not something that'll come into play much without the DM seeing it coming.

    Different games are going to have different ideas on what how big a Battleship is supposed to be. Sword of the Stars had absolutely clown car sized ships compared to most settings (lowest tier was smaller than our space shuttles), Warhammer 40k's smallest ships are gigantic in comparison.
    Star Wars X-wing is about the minimum, with Imperial Class II Star Destroyers as the general max (ofc, the system allows for much, much bigger ships).

    Also, this wasn't answered. Are we going to do "Called Shots" as part of the system? Or if not, do we have randomized subsystem damage? What are your thoughts on that subject? My main reason to have randomized damage dice is that "Called Shots" would make no sense in any range except point blank, even factoring missiles, but we gotta do... something about it having subsystems getting pinged.
    My plan for called shots is to allow them for any external system. If you miss your called shot (with systems having higher AC than the overall ship), but you beat the ship's overall AC, you just hit the ship. This means that you can deliberately cripple ships, but you'll generally have to be in close range to do it without endangering the ship. Randomized damage adds an extra step to this that, overall, has the same outcome as just damage to the ship's general HP.

    Also, want to know what your thoughts on the expansive weapon list that I put in the spoiler/weapon cool down things. You did kinda promise on answering that, sort of.
    I haven't really thought about it too much yet; it's further down on the list of things to do. I would like 5-6 different weapon systems, but anything beyond that seems excessive.

    And, how do we intend to handle really big capital ships with lots of weapons? Another reason I wanted the "20 rooms" cap was to allow for big ships without letting them roll 20 dice per combat round before rolling damage. The room cap means that the big ships have fewer "attacks" to throw everywhere, but because the weapons size up with the bigger ships (It actuallity, it may be multiple copies of the same gun treated a weapons bank, just treated as "one gun" for abstraction), they do proportionally more damage and thus combat speeds up faster and feels effective.
    My best idea for this so far is that you just add a bonus to hit if you're generalizing weapons across a bank, with every X over the target AC dealing extra damage. I'll have to work out the numbers to get it to the same outcome as just having each individual weapon fire.

    Oh, and we should probably include space cities and space stations and "non-mobile ships". I think this we can agree on no contest.
    They're pretty well covered by the rules anyway; all you have to do is build a ship with no engines.

    Anyways, glad to be of help, to know that I can atleast use my critism to your advantage. I'll try to be even more critcal without malice for better results. I do quite like the fact you've already got prices listed for over the top ship sizes. It actually looks like players can conceviably do "Starship only" games using that.
    That's the idea! =D

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    I actually think gramarie type stuff in PF works best being done either through the systems in Ultimate Campaign and it's plug-ins. Have it so you can spend downtime and Magic to create magic science effects, or have some magic stuff come from adding in new Magical Improvement types, Buildings in the vein of the continual flame streetlights, and alter the aerial mass combat rules to function in space.

    Then you just add in the Technology Guide's stuff (which I find much easier to look through on the PRD rather than d20PFSRD) so you have cybernetics base. Though personally I prefer to just use arcanetics as wondrous items in the form of prosthesis with two main varieties, crude arcanetics (which use up the associated body slot) and masterwork arcanetics (which have a x2 increase to cost and price).

    Finally, eventually DSP will be releasing a book with more tech stuff, even a base class focused around using a mechsuit type device.
    I'm not super inclined to use Ultimate Campaign as a primary source book. I love it to death, but it's not very well written, as it was adapted from a module without enough thought put into it. Both times I've used it have involved extensive house rules to make it work.

    Technology Guide's stuff is absolutely on the table, probably with a bunch more stuff added in. Also, super excited about DSP doing tech stuff.

    What's arcanetics?
    Last edited by RFLS; 2015-02-28 at 04:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    So... on thinking on it, the absolute minimum HP for a fighter should be around... 120 total. At least, if we're dealing with things on a Air to ground fight. Perhaps we should do some form of number squashing so people don't have to track 2,000 hp ships constantly. In either case, I wouldn't object that in some situations that mages with fireball or disintergrate are able to go affect the course of a space battle... provided they are of an appropriate level to do so. Once we get into big stuff, they shouldn't matter too much that it's gamebreaking.


    It gets treated like an animated object and has hardness and reduces damage from magic ect, but it's in the range of things for people to actually destroy with the right setups, right?


    For weapons, I'm thinking more and more about it and well, perhaps we should focus less on "category" of guns such as lasers and ballistics, because those tend to be specific and make them more "effects" based, the type of function the weapon performs.

    So:
    Heavy Blast- High ranged and really high damage, compensated by really high costs and
    Rapid Blast - Faster version but has less accuracy and range
    Rapid Attack - Miniguns, small, weak compared to big guns, but they can keep shooting. Midrange.
    Scatter Weapon - The shotgun option. Relatively short range and does less damage the further away, but knife fight ranges are deadly.
    Spinal Mounts - Because why not have heavy seige weapons that can only be fired from the front with no turrets?

    Then we add a twist, based on the "type" of weapons for some complexity.
    Missiles have longer range
    Ballistics can pierce hulls
    Energy weapons do energy damage (Tech Guide compatibility, only upscaled)
    I can easily think of more, perhaps for more complexity we can have EMP or status effect causing weapons: little to no damage, but do things. EMP, Antilife beam that harms crew, Plague Missiles, "Burrowstrike" missles.... They'd be more like "spells" than standard weapons of course.

    Perhaps called shots should only be doable in the weapon's first range incriment, but I dunno, I would want some way to easily randomly allocate damage from say far as away as possible as a "lucky shot" thing. Perhaps on a crit, we just add a table and have instead of a crit confirmation roll, the table lists out a part the weapon


    I don't like the idea of factoring every single turret of a given type into a bank that adds a bonus, because it has too many moving parts. Also, if we have to factor in and modify every single turret, we add too much mathmatical complexity, even if we treat them as banks, it'd still be simpler to just "upscale" weapons and say that they're either fluffed as size appropriate or
    become a size appropriate number of turrets that are treated mechanically as a single weapon. There's going to be hundreds of small laser turrets on a star destroyer class Capital ship, I don't think we can really... math out in a simple manner. It'd be too complex and while I wouldn't mind crunch, not everyone who wants to make big ships is going to need to do that.

    If we had to count individual turrets banks, what would be the mechanical difference of of 12 size 2 Turrets versus size 40 size 1's? And how meaningful is the difference between 21 and 23 small sized turrets? If there any difference at all because of stat counting, wouldn't people just not get the 23 turrets? and just wait to say get 24 because the way the stats work, they actually have the affect of getting a +1 to hit?

    Another advantage of if we factor in all "banks" as being a single weapon: we can upgrade banks like magic weapons. If we were to treat each an every individual turret, it'd be really tedious to allow upgrading even for let's call them mid class ships. But that may be hit or miss on your part.



    I'm thinking that we should have room specific conditions: "Breached", "Off-Line" and "Destroyed" are particularly important for marking whether subsystem failure has occured.


    We may need unique terminology to define ship sizes. We certainly need to define how big Capital ships are.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    I'm not super inclined to use Ultimate Campaign as a primary source book. I love it to death, but it's not very well written, as it was adapted from a module without enough thought put into it. Both times I've used it have involved extensive house rules to make it work.
    Which is why I mentioned the plug-ins. They apparently fix a lot of Ultimate Campaign's stuff, but was forced to be cut out of the main book because of space concerns, and then extra stuff was made to fix a few problems he found with Ultimate Campaigns stuff. Still, it's not a perfect system, but its probably better than trying to shove gramarie into a PF system when it comes to balance.

    What's arcanetics?
    I just call magic cybernetics arcanetics because mananetics doesn't sound right.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Quote Originally Posted by Almarck View Post
    So... on thinking on it, the absolute minimum HP for a fighter should be around... 120 total. At least, if we're dealing with things on a Air to ground fight. Perhaps we should do some form of number squashing so people don't have to track 2,000 hp ships constantly. In either case, I wouldn't object that in some situations that mages with fireball or disintergrate are able to go affect the course of a space battle... provided they are of an appropriate level to do so. Once we get into big stuff, they shouldn't matter too much that it's gamebreaking.
    I agree about the HP. I was thinking HP would be number of available hardpoints*20, with bonus HP for specific slots.

    It gets treated like an animated object and has hardness and reduces damage from magic ect, but it's in the range of things for people to actually destroy with the right setups, right?
    Yup.

    For weapons ... than standard weapons of course.
    I'm going to temporarily put the discussion of specific weapons off the table. They're a rabbit hole that should come out of the system, not something to base the system around.

    Perhaps called shots should only be doable in the weapon's first range incriment, but I dunno, I would want some way to easily randomly allocate damage from say far as away as possible as a "lucky shot" thing. Perhaps on a crit, we just add a table and have instead of a crit confirmation roll, the table lists out a part the weapon
    I think called shots should be allowed, and a miss that still hits the AC of the ship + say, 5 (for example) hits the ship's general HP, rather than the specific HP of that component.


    I don't like the idea of factoring every single turret of a given type into a bank that adds a bonus, because it has too many moving parts. Also, if we have to factor in and modify every single turret, we add too much mathmatical complexity, even if we treat them as banks, it'd still be simpler to just "upscale" weapons and say that they're either fluffed as size appropriate or
    become a size appropriate number of turrets that are treated mechanically as a single weapon. There's going to be hundreds of small laser turrets on a star destroyer class Capital ship, I don't think we can really... math out in a simple manner. It'd be too complex and while I wouldn't mind crunch, not everyone who wants to make big ships is going to need to do that.

    If we had to count individual turrets banks, what would be the mechanical difference of of 12 size 2 Turrets versus size 40 size 1's? And how meaningful is the difference between 21 and 23 small sized turrets? If there any difference at all because of stat counting, wouldn't people just not get the 23 turrets? and just wait to say get 24 because the way the stats work, they actually have the affect of getting a +1 to hit?

    Another advantage of if we factor in all "banks" as being a single weapon: we can upgrade banks like magic weapons. If we were to treat each an every individual turret, it'd be really tedious to allow upgrading even for let's call them mid class ships. But that may be hit or miss on your part.
    I think the simplest solution that still maintains balance is to allow identical weapons to be collected into banks of 10. Each weapon past the first grants a +1 bonus to hit to the bank. You roll to hit your target's AC once. If you hit, you deal damage. For every 1 you exceed the AC by, you deal the weapons' damage again. The specific effect of this is that it's hard to miss completely, and you have a 5% chance of max damage, vs a .001 percent chance of max damage. Basically, firing all at once means you're more likely to hit.

    Thoughts?

    I'm thinking that we should have room specific conditions: "Breached", "Off-Line" and "Destroyed" are particularly important for marking whether subsystem failure has occured.
    I'm going to put this in the same territory as weapon categories for now, if that's okay.

    We may need unique terminology to define ship sizes. We certainly need to define how big Capital ships are.
    Gramarie actually did us a service there; the sizes are described in Eldrikinetics, and again in the Spaceship rules page at the top of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    Which is why I mentioned the plug-ins. They apparently fix a lot of Ultimate Campaign's stuff, but was forced to be cut out of the main book because of space concerns, and then extra stuff was made to fix a few problems he found with Ultimate Campaigns stuff. Still, it's not a perfect system, but its probably better than trying to shove gramarie into a PF system when it comes to balance.
    Oh, cool. That makes more sense. Where can I find the plugins? Googling hasn't kicked anything up on the SRD, unless I'm missing something.

    I just call magic cybernetics arcanetics because mananetics doesn't sound right.
    Coolio.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    I'll shelve weapons for now. Conditions too probably.


    I do not like the "beat the ac for more attacks clause", because it's inconsistent. They'll always be needing to double check for attacks.

    Additionally we will end up having to make DR tables in order to prevent big ships from being shredded by light arms since the weapon damage per hit would get reduced on a hit by hit basis. The problem with that though is we get into the rabbit hole of having to be so careful with how we allocate numbers. Lots of small weapon banks might be too ineffective, but midsized weapons aren't penalties so much and thus out damage the bigger guns that are actually scaled appropriately.

    If we ended up doing something maybe borrowing d20 moderns rule of beating ac for every 5 does extra damage it might work but again it feels so swingy. I guess it's less prone to breaking the game in half though. For me, the all or nothing thing does feel less inconsistent. It still feels a little too slow too.





    I'm thinking that instead of using rooms we should describe ships being made up using "modules" then for ease of communication and other things. It's an immersion thing
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    Oh, cool. That makes more sense. Where can I find the plugins? Googling hasn't kicked anything up on the SRD, unless I'm missing something.
    They can be bought Here, though I haven't read through Ultimate Relationships it doesn't sound like it'd be necessary in this case.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    So I'm thinking about developing computer rules and I'm wondering if it's already been developed by your team quazz?

    Mostly I'm wondering if such rules can be governed entirely by a skill like Spellcraft or disable device. Mostly I'm thinking that say rogues should be able to be good at hacking and don't need special powers except skill point investment to pull it off.
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    Default Re: Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

    There are two ways to do computers in gramarie, that I can think of now. You can use heur bubbles to process things instantly, and store the information physically (I'm not sure how) or in an EI, or you can just have an EI as your computer and hope it doesn't try to kill the crew like in all the movies.

    In the first case, understanding the computer architecture, being able to somehow crack the password or other security measures, or being able to directly read the data store give you the information. If you have a higher autohypnosis than the maker, (the heur skill) you can also interfere with the heur bubbles, and probably just get free reigns on things.

    In the second case, you'd have to fool the intelligence somehow, perhaps appearing to be a member of the crew, or have a really high autohypnosis as in the first.

    In basically every case, having a skill higher than the maker's lets you wreck their stuff. Make engines explode, open the airlocks, and other fun things.

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