Magic in Space (with a side of cyberpunk)

[RFLS]

I kinda feel that's too cheap honestly. Unless we jack up module costs to compensate, which may or may not be good/establish limits on reactor use.


How do you feel about the Supply suggestion earlier?

I'm still mulling the Supply stuff over. My goal is to make this fit with Gramarie first, though, so until this is worked out everything else is tabled for a bit.

Especially since I just realized that by using Arcd 101 once, Bioy 101 500 times, and Arcd 176 once, you get a generator that pumps out 125 ebbs for 4158 gp.

I'm starting to think I should revisit some base assumptions for the setting. Looking at what exactly Gramarie can do (which I hadn't really thought through 100% yet), I think spaceships are entirely capable of needing absolutely no fuel. Sooo....yeah. I'm probably going to have to build a lot of spaceships from the ground up (and various subsystems) to see what exactly they cost and can do, and then write the rules to abstract that. Anyone want to help put some ships together using just Gramarie (and none of the spaceship rules as written)?

[RFLS]

Okay, it looks like spaceships cost roughly what I ballparked if the gramarist(s) are charging the amount listed in the gramarie thread. Energy costs are negligible with the use of a Biollurgical reactor; if you can lay hands some phlogiston you can get more energy out. Anyone have suggestions for how to get a ship to act on one initiative? The best I've got is to have one or more EIs running everything that the players aren't directly running.

[qazzquimby]

I'll help build ships. I would have done more already, but I've got some critical schooling happening at the moment, which will calm down around next weekend.

I talked to Milo about the ship building, and there were two things of note:
1. The way blueprints are recorded spatially is very important, given its a huge ship with lots of small parts. Recording that in words and little diagrams may be hard, and we need to make a standard method.
2. He has an amazing computer system using only spells (I think, as I forget how exactly it works), that takes the form of a book and a glove. The book stores information and projects silent images as output, while motions with the glove provide input. I thought that was fairly fantastic.

Also, if there is a phlog engine or something that outshines everything else possible, it should be tweaked. Maybe phlog should decay over time, along with other energy emitting materials.

Does magisterial level mean no doctorate abilities exist, or they're just more expensive?

[Milo v3]

From a principle standpoint the easiest spaceships would be vast size flying biollurgical chassis, but that can take generations to complete and they are quite slow. Question with your version of ELDK, have you introduced any of my ELDK update? It should help when it comes to space travel and such.

2. He has an amazing computer system using only spells (I think, as I forget how exactly it works), that takes the form of a book and a glove. The book stores information and projects silent images as output, while motions with the glove provide input. I thought that was fairly fantastic.

Oh, thanks.

It's a book enchanted with Arcane Mark, Detect Magic and Silent Image, and a glove enchanted with Magic Aura. The glove allows the wearer to send out a fake signal of any spell or magic item at a specific "frequency", he books detect magic effect searches for these frequencies and transfers the information gained into the Arcane Mark effect causing the information to be instantaneously written into the book. All the while, the silent image effect is creating an display over the book based on the text in the book, immediately updating when the book is changed.

This allows for someone to interact and edit the computer, by simplying touching the hologram it projects with the exact response being also decided via you sending out different spell signals.

[RFLS]

The disciplines I've modified so far are linked in the first post. The big changes are as follows:

• Yggdratecture's instant teleportation has been moved from a baccalaureate principle to a doctorate level principle. Things have been shuffled around to accommodate this. This was done to make FTL travel more difficult.
• Atypical Ballistics was made a baccalaureate principle. Unnatural Propulsion is now non-specialist. The two doctorate principles were rearranged to make the Aetheriel engine a magisterial principle. This was done so that the Ethereal Plane could be used for faster travel between planets in a system.
• HEUR 302 can be used for spells (with an increase in casting time/cost in ebbs/specification that costs must be met each time), but had a clause added specifying that it cannot be prepared into itself. This was done to stop the first doctorate level gramarist from completely turning the setting on its ear.

Obviously, these aren't set in stone, and they won't be the only changes. I'm wary of making sweeping changes without a good reason. The ones I've made have been thought out as best I could manage, done with an eye on keeping things balanced or making them balanced, and done to bring Gramarie in line with the setting. I'm more than open to suggestions on what, if any, further changes should be made.

I'll help build ships. I would have done more already, but I've got some critical schooling happening at the moment, which will calm down around next weekend.

I talked to Milo about the ship building, and there were two things of note:
1. The way blueprints are recorded spatially is very important, given its a huge ship with lots of small parts. Recording that in words and little diagrams may be hard, and we need to make a standard method.

I was thinking this, too. I feel like a few assumptions need to be made to simplify it:

1. HEUR 101 and ARCD 101 can be assumed to connect, well, everything needed. Specifying them is generally a waste of time unless they're needed to say something other than "this functions."
2. Ships can generally be divided into parts that can be described independently. Instead of referencing every single principle for the overall ship, you just reference blueprints. Standard blueprints can be made, and specific modifications are noted. Should speed things up.
3. Ships are airtight and have basic life support from BIOY 101.

I can't really think of any other ways to speed things up off the top of my head. My main goal here is to make spaceship based gameplay as fast as possible.

Also, if there is a phlog engine or something that outshines everything else possible, it should be tweaked. Maybe phlog should decay over time, along with other energy emitting materials.

Honestly, I suspect that it's futile to try to quash all of the ways that exist to generate ebbs for free. I don't have a deep understanding of the system, and I've already come up with two. I'm inclined to let it slide. If everyone can do it, it's still balanced.

Does magisterial level mean no doctorate abilities exist, or they're just more expensive?

It just means that almost no one is at a doctorate level. So, doctors of gramarie exist, but they're rare enough that they don't make a massive impact on the setting.

From a principle standpoint the easiest spaceships would be vast size flying biollurgical chassis, but that can take generations to complete and they are quite slow. Question with your version of ELDK, have you introduced any of my ELDK update? It should help when it comes to space travel and such.

I haven't actually found your ELDK update; got a link handy?

It's a book enchanted with Arcane Mark, Detect Magic and Silent Image, and a glove enchanted with Magic Aura. The glove allows the wearer to send out a fake signal of any spell or magic item at a specific "frequency", he books detect magic effect searches for these frequencies and transfers the information gained into the Arcane Mark effect causing the information to be instantaneously written into the book. All the while, the silent image effect is creating an display over the book based on the text in the book, immediately updating when the book is changed.

This allows for someone to interact and edit the computer, by simply touching the hologram it projects with the exact response being also decided via you sending out different spell signals.

Beautiful. That's awesome.

[Milo v3]

I haven't actually found your ELDK update; got a link handy?

It's in the first post of the 3rd Gramarie Thread, here is a direct link. Admittedly it uses the new rules for points and stuff, but could give you some ideas.

[qazzquimby]

Yggdratecture's instant teleportation has been moved from a baccalaureate principle to a doctorate level principle. Things have been shuffled around to accommodate this. This was done to make FTL travel more difficult.

The teleportation is known to be incredibly overpowered, and there was talk of bumping it to doctorate, or even making it a theory, or removing it all together.

HEUR 302 can be used for spells (with an increase in casting time/cost in ebbs/specification that costs must be met each time), but had a clause added specifying that it cannot be prepared into itself. This was done to stop the first doctorate level gramarist from completely turning the setting on its ear.

I believe it already can't, or at least was updated so it couldn't. Also, there is a transformer that channels ebbs to spells, in a prc. One of the basic transformers did originally, but spells are so varied that a lot of problems could be solved with a single transformer doing all your work for you through mass spelling. The cost was later made quadratic (level 9 costing 81 ebbs) which was still too little. After it was scrapped, the version in the prc was made, which is cubic I believe (level 9 costs 729 ebbs).

I can't really think of any other ways to speed things up off the top of my head. My main goal here is to make spaceship based gameplay as fast as possible.

Keeping things very two dimensional should help a lot, because every layer needs to be visible. Small ships could easily be a single floor, and larger should rarely go above three levels, just for convenience. You then have a floor plan of each floor, with rectangles plotted out for the machines behind the walls. If you take a wall panel off and start tampering with things, you go to that machine's blueprint.

The blueprint itself should describe what it looks like from each side, what they see when they first expose it, and then probably just a rough description of what is in each 5ft square inside. If a machine has a specific direction it needs to face, or connects to another machine, that should be marked on the floorplan with symbols.

Honestly, I suspect that it's futile to try to quash all of the ways that exist to generate ebbs for free. I don't have a deep understanding of the system, and I've already come up with two. I'm inclined to let it slide. If everyone can do it, it's still balanced.

True, but it seems not so fun to me. Gathering resources is an interesting challenge. Finding yourself out of fuel and dead in space is an interesting challenge. Especially seeing as this is gramarie, and your ship could run on nuts and berries, or the blood of the innocent, resources are very fun. Also, sticking to the real world rule that you can't generate anything from nothing, everything is just transformed, gives some realism.

It just means that almost no one is at a doctorate level. So, doctors of gramarie exist, but they're rare enough that they don't make a massive impact on the setting.

That's good. You might want to look through and see what theories you want included, if any.

Admittedly it uses the new rules for points and stuff, but could give you some ideas.

I wouldn't worry much about the new rules vs the old rules. Gramarie itself is identical, its just the nature of gaining access to it that changes. You can just shove it in somewhere it fits, if there isn't a place for it..

[RFLS]

The teleportation is known to be incredibly overpowered, and there was talk of bumping it to doctorate, or even making it a theory, or removing it all together.

I think I'll leave it in; it's the only real way for sustainable interstellar travel. All of the normal ways rely on high level casters, which are canonically few and far between in this setting. If it's just a doctorate level principle, then the handful of doctorate level gramarists with access to it can set portals up once and that's enough. No need for maintenance or continued effort.

I believe it already can't, or at least was updated so it couldn't. Also, there is a transformer that channels ebbs to spells, in a prc. One of the basic transformers did originally, but spells are so varied that a lot of problems could be solved with a single transformer doing all your work for you through mass spelling. The cost was later made quadratic (level 9 costing 81 ebbs) which was still too little. After it was scrapped, the version in the prc was made, which is cubic I believe (level 9 costs 729 ebbs).

That makes more sense, yeah. I updated the bit about spells to require spell level in ebbs cubed per round, with the casting of the spell requiring 10x the normal casting time.

Keeping things very two dimensional should help a lot, because every layer needs to be visible. Small ships could easily be a single floor, and larger should rarely go above three levels, just for convenience. You then have a floor plan of each floor, with rectangles plotted out for the machines behind the walls. If you take a wall panel off and start tampering with things, you go to that machine's blueprint.

The blueprint itself should describe what it looks like from each side, what they see when they first expose it, and then probably just a rough description of what is in each 5ft square inside. If a machine has a specific direction it needs to face, or connects to another machine, that should be marked on the floorplan with symbols.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think when I'm compiling everything I'll provide a bunch of stock blueprints for the innards of a ship; ditto for actual spaceships. I think the only way to prevent every session from getting bogged down in the particulars is to just do a lot of the legwork for the DM beforehand. Most people won't find designing a spaceship from the ground up particularly fun.

True, but it seems not so fun to me. Gathering resources is an interesting challenge. Finding yourself out of fuel and dead in space is an interesting challenge. Especially seeing as this is gramarie, and your ship could run on nuts and berries, or the blood of the innocent, resources are very fun. Also, sticking to the real world rule that you can't generate anything from nothing, everything is just transformed, gives some realism.

I do agree that the dead in space trope is interesting, but I'm not sure it's actually possible to carry enough fuel into space to move yourself for any length of time. The only thing I can think here is that instead of eliminating high-ebb sources, they just need to run out slowly.

That's good. You might want to look through and see what theories you want included, if any.

The only theory that I think would add to the setting is the Caloric Theory; I'm mildly tempted to switch that and phlogiston in terms of what they do.

[RFLS]

So, I was just poking at the numbers for interplanetary travel a bit. Turns out that you need engines significantly larger than the ship in question to get anywhere in any reasonable amount of time. Anyone have any thoughts on this? At this point, I'm tempted to write in an Eldrikinetic principle that allows for FTL travel.

[Milo v3]

So, I was just poking at the numbers for interplanetary travel a bit. Turns out that you need engines significantly larger than the ship in question to get anywhere in any reasonable amount of time. Anyone have any thoughts on this? At this point, I'm tempted to write in an Eldrikinetic principle that allows for FTL travel.

In my ELDK I increased the speed out putted by vehicles, and had a principle that increased the speed output further when in a low or zero gravity environment, and I also put in FTL travel.

As for the YGGD teleport thing, the current plan is to sort of remove it at least for low-levels, replacing it instead with two portals that form a passage between each other, and this passage is only a fraction of the actual distance (thus speeding up the travel time significantly).

[qazzquimby]

I'm finally ready to start making stuff. What would be most useful to begin with?
I also got a copy of Diaspora, which is a tool kit for running realistic hard science fiction games, and I could post some concepts from there if people are interested.

Problem, unless I'm mistaken, YGGD allows any machinery to be stored on a ship of any size, or on the end of a ballpoint pen.

[RFLS]

I'm finally ready to start making stuff. What would be most useful to begin with?
I also got a copy of Diaspora, which is a tool kit for running realistic hard science fiction games, and I could post some concepts from there if people are interested.

Problem, unless I'm mistaken, YGGD allows any machinery to be stored on a ship of any size, or on the end of a ballpoint pen.

Reactors and engines would probably be the most useful place to start, I think. The best I've come up with is 4 groups of 125 different biostructures being rotated through an input silver transformer by an output iron transformer. The biostructures' fast healing means that this generates infinite ebbs (with a per round limit).

This Diaspora? If so, that'd be awesome. If not, probably still pretty awesome =P

YGGD actually doesn't let you do that, because of this clause:

Bubbles and other area effects which are created on one side of a portal do not pass through the portal to the space on the other side. In order to affect the area on the other side of the portal, whatever is causing that effect must be inside the other space. This effectively means that the area effect from, for example, an arcanodynamic transformer, doesn't pass beyond the boundaries of the portal, and the transformer must be more than 50% on whatever side of the portal the bubble is going to take effect on.

Honestly, I have no idea how to handle engines for interplanetary travel. I'm tempted to modify the lightningleap engine to allow FTL travel, but I don't know how to do it in a way that can't be abused at a tactical level.

[qazzquimby]

Reactors and engines would probably be the most useful place to start, I think. The best I've come up with is 4 groups of 125 different biostructures being rotated through an input silver transformer by an output iron transformer. The biostructures' fast healing means that this generates infinite ebbs (with a per round limit).

I guess infinite generation is unavoidable, but hopefully destructive generation can at least have its moments. I made an engine at some point that used a heavy ball on a stick on an axle, and used yggd to set gravity to an angle perpendicular to the stick, so it would spin and accelerate forever. Then had a spin input draw puissance. I'll see how effective that is, and if it's still possible.

Nope, this one.

YGGD actually doesn't let you do that, because of this clause:

Does this mean you can't use heur to link machines inside to machines outside? I'm sure there's some sort of work around, but I thought you could do that. I remember laser pistols using yggd to hide the machines, and shoot out the portal, but I don't remember exactly how that worked.

Honestly, I have no idea how to handle engines for interplanetary travel. I'm tempted to modify the lightningleap engine to allow FTL travel, but I don't know how to do it in a way that can't be abused at a tactical level.

Lets see what comes up naturally first. It's probably possible.
This isn't finished, but its relevant. It should probably be tagged onto yggd.

[Milo v3]

YGGD actually doesn't let you do that, because of this clause

One of the discoveries lets you put Heur circuits through portals, increasing the size each time, especially if you cover the ship in teeny tiny microportals. That's how we made ships generally. Though, gravity ships were generally better than engine based ships in mark 2.

Honestly, I have no idea how to handle engines for interplanetary travel. I'm tempted to modify the lightningleap engine to allow FTL travel, but I don't know how to do it in a way that can't be abused at a tactical level.

The interplanetary engine I made was for Doctorate level.

[qazzquimby]

I think gravity manipulation should be knocked back, maybe even to theory level. It's effectively just giving you huge amounts of force for free.

[altona]

I hoping this is the right place. I was looking over the Magitech Templar and while I find the repeating crossbow neat, it seems a little out of place in a setting where guns are common. I was thinking that a second tier upgrade that requires the repeating crossbow but allows a 1 handed firearm would be pretty sweet. It seems inline with the power of some of the other abilities ie power fist
Something like:

Wrist Cannon (Requires Repeating Crossbow)
Your armor has a special masterwork pistol built into one of its arms (1d8, *4). You are treated as being proficient with this weapon. You may hold or otherwise manipulate a weapon, shield, or other object on the same arm as your Pistol, though you may not use them both during the same round. As part of your armor, the Pistol cannot be Sundered, Disarmed, or dropped while you are wearing it. You may treat the weapon as a pistol of any type for any feat or ability that affects weapons. Your armor contains an extradimensional space which can store up to 100 bullets, and the pistol automatically loads any stored bullets of your choice as a free action. You may enchant the Pistol just as you would a normal pistol, paying the full costs and following the normal rules for doing so. You may take this upgrade multiple times – once for each arm that you possess.

And another that struck me as typing

Shoulder Turret(requires Wrist Cannon and Great Strength)
Your wrist cannon has been removed and replaced with a larger more dangerous shoulder mounted machine gun. (2d8, *4). You are treated as being proficient with this weapon. You may hold or otherwise manipulate a weapon, shield, or other object on the same arm as your Shoulder Turret, though you may not use them both during the same round. As part of your armor, the machine gun cannot be Sundered, Disarmed, or dropped while you are wearing it. You may treat the weapon as a pistol of any type for any feat or ability that affects weapons. Your armor contains an extradimensional space which can store up to 1000 bullets, and the machine gun automatically loads any stored bullets of your choice as a free action. You may enchant the Pistol just as you would a normal machine gun, paying the full costs and following the normal rules for doing so.

[qazzquimby]

Those both look very good. We'll probably end up making partial rewrites of the classes to make everything fit thematically and be as compatible as possible.

Also, I was just looking at dragonmech since the related homebrew was posted, and it seems potentially useful.