The Index of the Giant's Comments IV - A Rich Source of Quotassium

[Porthos]

I like to think of this language discussion as further evidence that thread rules are difficult to enforce solely on the language

Truly, you are a banana that is wise beyond their years.

[Peelee]

Why on earth would you try to insist on sticking to Latin and Greek when trying to come up with standards for a Germanic language? That's how we got that idiotic "split infinitive" garbage, and probably a whole host of other pointless "rules", in the first place.

I make it a point to always split infinitives. Also, the erroneous belief that English is Latin-derived is the basis for the odious "though shalt not end a sentence in a preposition" shenanigans. Prepositions are perfectly fine to end sentences with. Those are the only two I really care about, because they are the most commonly taught errors in schools. Well, that and Columbus pioneering the whole "world is round" thing, but that's another topic for another day.

Truly, you are a banana that is wise beyond their years.

Indeed, you hold my loyalty as no other fruit has. Well, except maybe oranges and raspberries, but they don't have a forum presence.

[Qaanol]

Truly, you are a banana that is wise beyond their years.

Indeed, you hold my loyalty as no other fruit has.

I concur, this thread has slipped pretty far from its purpose. As appealing as the grammar discussion is, and I’m sure a bunch of people really enjoyed it, I think it’s time to split that conversation off. Don’t get me wrong, it was a sweet little digression, but there’s no reason to mush two discussions together. We need to curve back toward our original purpose before the side conversation grows from a speckle into a blotch on this thread.

Spoiler

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Oh, also the attempts to disallow "It's me!" That's a case where English manages to be more regular than Latin, but heaven forfend we treat copular verbs in English differently than sum, esse, fui, eh?

I totally agree: the predicate accusative is a long-established construction in English.

Similarly, the use of “than” as a preposition. Compare some parallel phrases:
You are different from me.
You are ahead of me.
You are faster than me.

[ti'esar]

Ouch, stop!

[SaintRidley]

Again, I find myself also on the side of "no removal from the index ever," probably because I have a different idea of what its function is than others do. I'm not sure how quotes addressing things that have changed or clarified are clutter, since they also provide a timeline for being able to research the comic and how it came across at different times, rather than subsuming everything into the shifting present. So there are more words in the index? So what?

My favourite also involves "to"! English doesn't have an indirect object, that was just stolen from Latin without thinking. "I gave the chocolates from France to Jane" has two perfectly normal nouns at the centre of prepositional phrases, but 8th grade English keeps insisting that "Jane" is somehow magical just because it would have been dative-cased by Cicero.

Jane would have been dative case in Old English too, because English had (and retains in pronouns) a pretty functional case system as robust as German's. France would be genitive in this situation, functioning as a noun behaving adjectivally due to its genitive construction. Just pointing that out.

And the majority of Latin and Greek plurals of English words derived from their Latin forms are the result of Renaissance era borrowings which aimed particularly to respect the Latin (and rarely the Greek) origins. Earlier borrowings did no such thing, adapting either to the standard for pluralization post-Conquest (based on the old strong masculine declension) or depending on the determined noun gender during the Anglo-Saxon period. It's less grammarians imposing Latinity onto the words that came in during the renaissance so much as the coiners of the English words at the time doing so themselves. Hence dominatrices and not dominatrixes.

[Emanick]

Why on earth would you try to insist on sticking to Latin and Greek when trying to come up with standards for a Germanic language? That's how we got that idiotic "split infinitive" garbage, and probably a whole host of other pointless "rules", in the first place.

If I were crowned Philosopher-King and asked to design the English language from scratch, I certainly wouldn't have chosen to give so many words a Latin or Greek root when the language itself is Germanic. But that's the way English is today, and forcing it to make a clean break from its past now would just make it harder for future generations to understand why the world's lingua franca is the way it is.

To be clear, I think a number of obvious rationalizations would be nice - the most urgent being the desperate need for a universally accepted singular third-person pronoun (because "they" simply won't cut it), but also some tidying up of various pluralizations, and maybe getting rid of "whom" once and for all. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Separating a language from its history takes away many of the bridges that help plenty of its learners figure out how to grasp it, and makes figuring out the definition of an unfamiliar word via knowledge of words with similar etymologies much, much harder.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I make it a point to always split infinitives.

Related to this, I sonetimed phrase things in passive voice on purpose.

Prepositions are perfectly fine to end sentences with.

What you did there was seen by me.

[snowblizz]

Prepositions are perfectly fine to end sentences with.

Every time I see that mentioned I try to not end sentences with prepositions, and it seems impossible not to.

[Gwynfrid]

Truly, you are a banana that is wise beyond their years.

In other words, a banana that reached peak ripeness.

Again, I find myself also on the side of "no removal from the index ever," probably because I have a different idea of what its function is than others do. I'm not sure how quotes addressing things that have changed or clarified are clutter, since they also provide a timeline for being able to research the comic and how it came across at different times, rather than subsuming everything into the shifting present. So there are more words in the index? So what?

Because of the Index's purpose:

The Index provides easy access to direct statements about the Order of the Stick comic from its author, for the purpose of forum discussion.

When we add a quote, access to any other quote is made incrementally less easy. That's the unavoidable effect of the sheer number of entries in the Index (it's not like a dictionary, where all entries are alphabetized). This is of course justified by the new quote's own value. When a quote becomes redundant, then its instrinsic value becomes zero, so the clutter effect means its contribution to the purpose of the Index is now negative.

Providing a timeline for being able to research the comic and how it came across at different times, as you put it, may be a worthy goal. But it's not the goal of this Index.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When we add a quote, access to any other quote is made incrementally less easy.

This. Last time I attempted to use the index to find a quote, I could not find it, and after going through 12-ish links in the appropriate categories, I gave up, used the Forum search and found it. Once I had the quote, I was able to find it in the index (the description had keywords not quite relating to what I needed), so it's not like it was one that wasn't voted in. The more quotes we add, the worse this problem will become.

Grey Wolf

[Zyzzyva]

Nghhhh... I like the idea of having all the quotes, both for historical record and for entertainment value, since I read them en bloc rather than looking things up, but I get that that's not the intended or typical use. ...Maybe shovel all the purged quotes into a spoiler tag in post five?

Also, child thread.

[ORione]

Are you doing this on purpose

That wasn't passive, that was the past continuous tense. Passive would be something like, "The students were tutored by me."

[Jasdoif]

This. Last time I attempted to use the index to find a quote, I could not find it, and after going through 12-ish links in the appropriate categories, I gave up, used the Forum search and found it. Once I had the quote, I was able to find it in the index (the description had keywords not quite relating to what I needed), so it's not like it was one that wasn't voted in. The more quotes we add, the worse this problem will become.

While we're here, what quote was it and what would you have expected in its description?

Nghhhh... I like the idea of having all the quotes, both for historical record and for entertainment value, since I read them en bloc rather than looking things up, but I get that that's not the intended or typical use. ...Maybe shovel all the purged quotes into a spoiler tag in post five?

Keeping those quotes maintained in a separate post would kind of defeat the intent of "purging" them, wouldn't it? Besides which, it'd be "quote" at this point, since we've only ever removed one.

[The Linker]

Keeping those quotes maintained in a separate post would kind of defeat the intent of "purging" them, wouldn't it?

Well, the point of purging them is to eliminate the quote's ability to make it harder to find what you're looking for. Putting all the purged quotes in their own separate section at the end would accomplish that just as well.

[Peelee]

Well, the point of purging them is to eliminate the quote's ability to make it harder to find what you're looking for. Putting all the purged quotes in their own separate section at the end would accomplish that just as well.

The purpose of purging is to avoid clutter and unnecessary clarification (such as the Crystal is a Flesh Golem quote, which is now obvious in the comic itself). When it was made, it was useful. It no longer is. Done. Why have it archived?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

While we're here, what quote was it and what would you have expected in its description?

It's been weeks; I no longer remember the specifics, just the frustration. It might have been the quote about Haley using straw to get out of jail - I think I might have been looking for a quote about improvised tools & locks. But don't change it on my account - the description isn't bad, just did not have the keywords I was searching for, and the manual search going through all the quotes got boring before I got to it.

I might as well add that, in my opinion, keeping every quote, no matter how redundant or factually unnecessary, also gets way too close to the "stalkerish" behaviour that lead Rich to asks us to stop just listing everything he said.

Grey Wolf

[The Linker]

The purpose of purging is to avoid clutter and unnecessary clarification (such as the Crystal is a Flesh Golem quote, which is now obvious in the comic itself). When it was made, it was useful. It no longer is. Done. Why have it archived?

Well, for the reasons Zyzzyva described. Whether you think those are valid reasons or not are your prerogative; I'm just saying that a single spoiler box for "Purged Quotes" in the post currently held only for "Twitter Q&As" isn't what I would call clutter, in that the existence of a section for purged quotes at the bottom is not going to make it any harder to find any other quote, since it's in a completely different place.

I mean, I never wanted that quote in in the first place, so I hardly care if it gets preserved or not. I just think it'd be a way to make everyone happy; the quote is preserved while reducing the clutter amongst the actual proper list of quotes.

[Jasdoif]

I mean, I never wanted that quote in in the first place, so I hardly care if it gets preserved or not. I just think it'd be a way to make everyone happy; the quote is preserved while reducing the clutter amongst the actual proper list of quotes.

What this would do would be to make two tiers of quotes: Quotes that are approved, and quotes that were once approved but no longer. People looking for a quote we have would need to look through both sets, which doesn't make the Index any easier to use since "people wanted in included once but no longer" is far too subjective to be a useful criterion....Unless we're presuming no one is going to look a quote we've "removed", in which case keeping it is necessarily clutter.

More importantly, the vote to remove the quote from the Index...was a vote to remove the quote from the Index. Leaving the quote in the Index now, even in some other section, would be a violation of community consensus. To say nothing of the underlying philosophy that the community determines which quotes are included and which are not.

[Jasdoif]

Our last update cycle completed on January 17th, so the next one will occur on March 17th unless we get another quote before then.

And here we are.

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UPDATE COMING, CALLING FOR PMs TO REQUIRE VOTES

Anyone thinking some entries marked "Accepting PMs to require vote" should not be included in the Index should send me a private message, saying which entries should require a vote. (The default is to include, an item not voted on will be included in the Index.) If I get PMs from two or more people about a particular entry, it will be voted on to decide inclusion; the vote will be the next stage, and I'll announce it when the vote is ready.

Some of the quotes below reached strong consensus already. A vote is considered unnecessary in these cases, so they will be included.

Proposed Items for Index 4.1
The Giant Shows Obvious Tactics Not Working "...to avoid constant comments like, 'Haley is so dumb, why doesn't she use the wands she just bought on it?'" Also, Haley used a wand of Magic Missile in #973.	#973	01/22/2015	Accepting PMs to require vote. Will be included.
Haley Used a Full Attack in #973 "Note the three separate FFT! sound effects."	#973	01/22/2015	Accepting PMs to require vote. PM threshold met, vote required.
Forum Speculation has Little Influence on the Comic "If I really just wanted to shut up forum-goers, I would just post a clarification...."	#974	02/02/2015	No vote required, will be included.
Why Elan Didn't Hold Tarquin Prisoner Story-notable villains never stay captured; Elan knew this. More here.	#975	02/16/2015	No vote required, will be included.

PMs will be accepted until March 19th, 4PM EDT. I'll try to update the table if/when entries get sufficient PMs.

To send me a PM, click my username (The vaguely-pronounceable(?)-looking word above the spellcasting-and-invocation-using banana with purple hair) and select "Private Message". Or I guess you could click here. Anyway, include the titles of the entry (or entries) you're nominating in the message. Mentioning something about "Index Nomination" in the subject line would be helpful.

A few final reminders:

• Don't post suggestions to require votes. They're sent by PM to avoid filling up the thread with them, posts will not be counted.
• Only PM for entries you think should be excluded. They'll be included if they don't receive sufficient nominations.
• We're not voting on the entries yet. The voting will be the next stage, assuming a vote is required; I'll call for the vote at an appropriate time.
• There's still a banana in charge. Hi.

Further discussion of entries is encouraged at this point. In particular, recommendations for different titles and descriptions for the quote entries are things I'd be happy to consider.

[Emperordaniel]

The Elven gods are an addition to the Western Pantheon, not a replacement for them. Also, the Dark One was the first deity the goblins worshipped.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Elven gods are an addition to the Western Pantheon, not a replacement for them. Also, the Dark One was the first deity the goblins worshipped.

I think this should be included. It's something that, based on that thread, most people didn't assume at first.

[D.One]

The Elven gods are an addition to the Western Pantheon, not a replacement for them. Also, the Dark One was the first deity the goblins worshipped.

Agreed. It shines some light over how elven worship works, and I think we won't have "comic time" to show this info.

[Peelee]

I think this should be included. It's something that, based on that thread, most people didn't assume at first.

To play Devil's Advocate, though, it didn't really do anything in that thread. It's cool knowledge, yeah, but everyone except the OP was in the "decidedly no" camp. If the Giant had never posted, the consensus would still be the exact same.

[Keltest]

To play Devil's Advocate, though, it didn't really do anything in that thread. It's cool knowledge, yeah, but everyone except the OP was in the "decidedly no" camp. If the Giant had never posted, the consensus would still be the exact same.

Sure, but its not like we include quotes based purely on their merit in the thread of origin.

[Ron Miel]

And here we are.

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UPDATE COMING, CALLING FOR PMs TO REQUIRE VOTES

Anyone thinking some entries marked "Accepting PMs to require vote" should not be included in the Index should send me a private message, saying which entries should require a vote. (The default is to include, an item not voted on will be included in the Index.) If I get PMs from two or more people about a particular entry, it will be voted on to decide inclusion; the vote will be the next stage, and I'll announce it when the vote is ready.

You know, folks, I think the thread is unnecessarily bureaucratic. Basically, we are voting on whether to have a vote. I suggest we cut the crap. How about in future every nominated quote is voted on, even if there is already a clear consensus.

On the vote itself, the default is to include. If there's an exactly even split, it will be included. A +1 majority required to exclude.

[Rodin]

Sure, but its not like we include quotes based purely on their merit in the thread of origin.

Indeed. It was interesting information that I didn't know. Plus, it contradicted the opinions of most (if not all) of the people in that thread. The opinion was that the Elves just had their own gods, not that they worshiped the originals while also creating additional ones of their own.

[Keltest]

You know, folks, I think the thread is unnecessarily bureaucratic. Basically, we are voting on whether to have a vote. I suggest we cut the crap. How about in future every nominated quote is voted on, even if there is already a clear consensus.

On the vote itself, the default is to include. If there's an exactly even split, it will be included. A +1 majority required to exclude.

I don't see how that's any less bureaucratic. we end up with far more voting if we just vote on everything. Personally, I see no reason to vote on something if there is not significant dispute on whether to include it in the first place.

[Porthos]

You know, folks, I think the thread is unnecessarily bureaucratic. Basically, we are voting on whether to have a vote. I suggest we cut the crap. How about in future every nominated quote is voted on, even if there is already a clear consensus.

On the vote itself, the default is to include. If there's an exactly even split, it will be included. A +1 majority required to exclude.

Except we're not "having a vote to have a vote". It's more like a motion to have a vote. With Seconding. And it's sent via PM privately to our great banana overlord so it doesn't clutter the thread.

More to the point we don't vote on everything because it does reduce the crap in this thread. If we voted on everything, even if it had overwhelming support, it'd full up these threads with the clutter you are arguing against.

===

Oh, yes. Definitely include the elven gods quote. I had no idea that the elves also worshiped part of the Western Pantheon and it's exactly this sort of information that I think needs to be included in the Index. Namely, information about the world of OotS that one wouldn't/couldn't know without hearing about it from the horse's mouth.

[Jasdoif]

How about in future every nominated quote is voted on, even if there is already a clear consensus.

Personally, I'm not eager to see the return of multiple pages of votes every few times the Giant makes a post; I think we saw enough of that two threads ago...which, incidentally, is what prompted the system we have now.

[Bird]

Personally, I'm not eager to see the return of multiple pages of votes every few times the Giant makes a post; I think we saw enough of that two threads ago...which, incidentally, is what prompted the system we have now.

While I admit the new system may seem a bit complex, things are cleaner now than they used to be. I'd call the change a success.