Balance of converting 3.5 PrCs to Pathfinder

[JoshuaZ]

When converting 3.5 prestige classes to Pathfinder the two big rules are: One, reduce required skill points by 3 to a minimum of 1. Two, when skills overlap combine skills accordingly. Question: Which PrCs does applying these rules makes them much easier to enter in PF than they were in 3.5? Are there any PrCs where they become actually harder to qualify for in PF- I could see this happening either due to the lack of doubled skill points at level 1 (but this seems unlikely) or the change in saves for PrCs which might make it harder to stack a PrC on top of another if the second one has a save requirement. I've identified some where it is substantially easier but none which seem to be harder.

Look for example at the Fochlucan Lyrist - since PF has no additional expenditure to cross-class skills and since Gather Information and Diplomacy were combined into one skill this becomes much easier. However, since the main limit was the ranks in Perform, the earliest entry is still identical, and it still seems to take 3 different classes to get there(unless you think evasion from a Ring of Evasion is ok but there seem to be a lot of arguments over that).

A common pattern among the skill heavy PrCs, such as most of those in Complete Adventurer is for them to be easier to qualify for, but not in an interesting way. For example, both Dungeon Delve and Thief-Acrobate r- benefits massively from collapsing of skills so they have a lot more skill points to spread around. Alternatively, less skill focused classes may enter into either. Too bad the benefits of doing so aren't that hot.

So my question essentially becomes are there any examples where the changes allows one to actually enter earlier or allows a highly unexpected or highly optimal entry?

There are some almost examples- concentration ceased to be a skill in Pathfinder and it doesn't have any replacement. If one replaces concentration rank requirements with spellcraft or knowledge(arcana) (which flavor-wise wouldn't be that unreasonable) things stay more or less ok. If however one simply ignores those requirements then are there any examples where it would actually allow early entry? I'm not aware of any unless they also involve tricks to get spells earlier than one should be able to. For example, this would allow one to use Precocious Apprentice to take one's first level of Mindspy at level 5.

So, barring concentration tricks, are there any earlier entries allowed by this? Alternatively, are there any builds that no longer work? And do any PrCs even without earlier entry issues drastically alter in strength?

[Psyren]

Just about anything involving cross-class skill ranks for the assumed entry class (e.g. Fiendblooded) becomes easier to enter in PF.

PF also has 50% more feats, so some feat-intensive classes (e.g. Shadowdancer) become faster for non-humans, or without needing flaws (which are a variant rule.)

[JoshuaZ]

Just about anything involving cross-class skill ranks for the assumed entry class (e.g. Fiendblooded) becomes easier to enter in PF.

PF also has 50% more feats, so some feat-intensive classes (e.g. Shadowdancer) become faster for non-humans, or without needing flaws (which are a variant rule.)

Good points, especially in regard to feats which I wasn't even thinking about. Fiendblooded normally has earliest entry at 7th level, and in PF can take it at 6th level. I wonder if this one is really abuseable since Fiendblooded is already +1 on the PrC Tier list. Is there anything on the +2 list that now gets earlier entry?

[SangoProduction]

Well, Dervish is pretty devastating, especially if PF has an equivalent to a scout. The main thing that frustrates me about it is that it leaves so little extra room for feats, even in a level 20 build. If PF has more feats, then I actually want to play PF, lol. But, that is a class to consider.

[Almarck]

PF does give extra feats, one at every odd level to be in fact. 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th... You get about 10 feats by level 20 before factoring other things. Meanwhile, 3.5 got you 7 at 20 before racials.

To my knowledge though, there is no "exact" class that replicates the scout, but there's archetypes for the ranger that might play in much the same way. If my recollection works. the Slayer probably fills the same niche more cleanly and without requiring to move as much.



Also, to replace concentration, why not just make it straight up "caster level" X where X is the original amount of concentration ranks minus 3?

[SangoProduction]

But, feat-heavy classes are still feat-heavy classes. They might not be as weighted in PF as they are in D&D, but it will still be more limiting than other options...unless PF requirements take into account the extra feats. In which case, EVERY D&D PRC is going to break the game in that respect.

[Almarck]

I don't really go much into PrC meta, but from what I understand, it's the same as in 3.5. Some PrCs are good and have rather lax requirements, others are feat expensive but those feats are ones you'll be taking anyways, so it's no big deal, and then there's the bad choices for no matter feats are taken. I believe the difference is that PF PrC's are one feat more intensive in most cases.

[Psyren]

Good points, especially in regard to feats which I wasn't even thinking about. Fiendblooded normally has earliest entry at 7th level, and in PF can take it at 6th level. I wonder if this one is really abuseable since Fiendblooded is already +1 on the PrC Tier list. Is there anything on the +2 list that now gets earlier entry?

It's a bit of a chore to go through the whole list, but one other thing to mention - PrCs like Iot7FV with requirements like "must be able to cast {X spells that meet Y criteria}" are a bit easier if you're going 3.P. Not only are there many, many more spells from every school to choose from if you mash both system together (making it easier to find good ones), there are also things like racial FCBs and arguably Page of Spell Knowledge that give you the ability to cast those spells without tying up your regular allotment of spells known.

Perhaps pull out any of the PrCs from that list you're having trouble converting or think might have an early entry method?

PF does give extra feats, one at every odd level to be in fact. 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th... You get about 10 feats by level 20 before factoring other things. Meanwhile, 3.5 got you 7 at 20 before racials.

To my knowledge though, there is no "exact" class that replicates the scout, but there's archetypes for the ranger that might play in much the same way. If my recollection works. the Slayer probably fills the same niche more cleanly and without requiring to move as much.

There is a "Scout" archetype for the rogue (and ninja) that grants you sneak attack by moving. The primary benefit there is that, unlike the 3.5 Scout, you still get your bonus damage in the normal ways, i.e. flanking and being unseen. And if you're a Ninja, you have way better class features too.

Also, to replace concentration, why not just make it straight up "caster level" X where X is the original amount of concentration ranks minus 3?

Well, some non-caster PrCs in 3.5 require Concentration, like the Kensai. It's probably better just to drop that requirement than come up with alternates that make sense for all of them.

[deuxhero]

Unseen Seer is another case of keeping people out through cross class skill ranks which aren't things in PF.

I don't think non-dual advancement 3.5 PRCs that weren't already powerful would have gain that much from PF lowering their high requirement costs, but note 3.5 PRCs are pretty powerful compared to PF's.

[DarkSonic1337]

One thing to remember is that while pathfinder does give you 3 extra feats over the course of 20 levels, those 3 feats are spread out...across 20 levels. By level 10 you only have one extra feat compared to 3.5.

I suppose the bigger benefit is having access to feats slightly earlier, like having 3 feats at level 5 or 4 feats at level 7 rather than 6 and 9 respectively.

[Coidzor]

Just about anything involving cross-class skill ranks for the assumed entry class (e.g. Fiendblooded) becomes easier to enter in PF.

Which is good for some PrCs like Fleshwarper where they borked up the entry requirements for the PrC by borking up the entry requirements for Graft Flesh.

Which PrCs does applying these rules makes them much easier to enter in PF than they were in 3.5?

Fleshwarper is the first example that comes to mind, since instead of having to jump through hoops to enter a PrC at 10th level that one should be able to qualify for at 5th and enter at 6th. Without hoop-jumping, one only qualifies to enter Fleshwarper at 17th level, IIRC, because of cross-class skills.

Fleshwarper is not so good that it's appropriate to delay entry to 10th level, let alone 18th level.

So my question essentially becomes are there any examples where the changes allows one to actually enter earlier or allows a highly unexpected or highly optimal entry?

I don't believe there really should be, and you'll be able to spot it if there is when someone brings it up with you.

Also, to replace concentration, why not just make it straight up "caster level" X where X is the original amount of concentration ranks minus 3?

You'd have to waive that for non-caster PrCs and PrCs intended for non-casters to be able to enter them, and CL boosters, which are a bit of an unknown quantity when mixing 3.5 and PF.

Simpler to just axe Concentration as a requirement for PrCs and then deal with it on a case by case basis on those few cases where it does actually have an effect.

Concentration as a requirement for feats is a bit more complicated, I think.

Good points, especially in regard to feats which I wasn't even thinking about. Fiendblooded normally has earliest entry at 7th level, and in PF can take it at 6th level. I wonder if this one is really abuseable since Fiendblooded is already +1 on the PrC Tier list. Is there anything on the +2 list that now gets earlier entry?

A whole level earlier, putting it at the level where PrCs are typically first able to be taken. No, I don't think you have a whole lot to worry on the Fiendblooded front. At least not in terms of what level someone can enter the PrC.

But, feat-heavy classes are still feat-heavy classes. They might not be as weighted in PF as they are in D&D, but it will still be more limiting than other options...unless PF requirements take into account the extra feats. In which case, EVERY D&D PRC is going to break the game in that respect.

Yeah... a difference of one feat isn't going to break the game.

[atemu1234]

Just about anything involving cross-class skill ranks for the assumed entry class (e.g. Fiendblooded) becomes easier to enter in PF.

PF also has 50% more feats, so some feat-intensive classes (e.g. Shadowdancer) become faster for non-humans, or without needing flaws (which are a variant rule.)

But even then, with the two flaw max at level 20, you've got 8 feats to pathfinder's 10. On the other hand, pathfinder has its more evemevenly distributed, as opposed to 3 at level 1.

[Psyren]

But even then, with the two flaw max at level 20, you've got 8 feats to pathfinder's 10. On the other hand, pathfinder has its more evemevenly distributed, as opposed to 3 at level 1.

9 actually - you forgot the 1st-level feat. (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 + 2 flaws = 9)

Again, this is assuming flaws are allowed.