LGBTAI+ 55: AKA The Page We'll Get to if I Don't Make a New One

[Ravens_cry]

My admittedly inexperienced thoughts:

Spoiler: From One Indecisive Rambler to Another

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I'm never sure if this has helped or not, and I usually scoff at people who claim what I'm about to claim, but I feel like I feel mostly the same way. The indecisiveness, the hating the maleness but not necessarily sure if transition will help. You pretty much have condensed what I've been incoherently rambling about for while, and to your credit, quite eloquently and succinctly. If it at all helps, if you are feeling this way, it's a pretty decent indicator that transition will help. I don't want to push you down a complicated medical path, but it has been assured to me by others that many have doubts such as these pre transition, and that transition almost universally helps. This is true even for non-binary or genderqueer folk I've known as well, if that helps.

I know that was basically just parroting cliches at you, and I hate doing that, but please know that you don't need to "lay down and end it." Alleviators of your sorrow may be far off, or seem distant, but they can and will come.

Spoiler: Thank You

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Thank you. One thing that kind of tipped me over the edge was how, in the last thread, I reported what felt to me a real triumph, and, well, I didn't really get any response. Admittedly, it came just after a major, major announcement by another member, but I still felt . . . put down, like my happiness didn't matter. I don't open up much, even here, so, yeah, not the best feeling in the world. Still, again, thank you. I hope you are right.

[Axinian]

Spoiler: Thank You

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Thank you. One thing that kind of tipped me over the edge was how, in the last thread, I reported what felt to me a real triumph, and, well, I didn't really get any response. Admittedly, it came just after a major, major announcement by another member, but I still felt . . . put down, like my happiness didn't matter. I don't open up much, even here, so, yeah, not the best feeling in the world. Still, again, thank you. I hope you are right.

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Oh I definitely know that feel. Unfortunately that's just something that seems to happen on the internet. Though from my own reading experience it's not that people don't notice, it's just people don't always know how to respond... or something. I dunno, it happens.

[bluewind95]

If by any chance, someone who knows me offline sees this, please respect me and do not open it.

Spoiler: I've been thinking a lot...

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... and I don't think I'm cis. I don't really get what I feel, though.

I was AFAB. But I've never really felt female, much less the way other AFAB people seemed to feel female. Sure enough, I like some female things. I liked princesses, but not because of their feminine beauty and grace, but because of the pretty dresses that they wore. I like dresses. They're colorful and beautiful and elegant... but really only the formal wear. Other than that? Not really. I like suits too, but I think they lack variety, unlike the dazzling dresses.

Make-up, pretty shoes, pretty casual clothing, etc., I don't care for. I HATE the fact that I have breasts, to the point that I sometimes fantasize about cutting them off. But at the same time, I'm glad I don't have dangly bits. I don't want to be female... and I don't want to be male, either. Having no gender feels about right to me, but am I still agendered if I like some girly things like pretty dresses? Am I instead bi-gendered? It doesn't make sense... I don't like either gender. Neither feels "mine", so to speak. What makes someone agendered, exactly? And how would I go about transitioning to an agendered body? How do I even present as agendered?

I'm kind of confused, honestly.

[The Succubus]

Hey folks, its been a while.

Seeing all the pretty people in their pretty OKC profiles makes me think I should really get around to updating mine. I guess its just that over the past year or so, while there have been times when I've really needed a hug, I haven't really felt like dating. There have also been one or two occasions where my heteroflexible side has wanted to come out and fun too. I don't think I'm bi or pan but I don't think I'm entirely straight either...

Speaking of, is there an equivalent term for folks that approach this from the other way, like lesbians that might be curious about guys? Homoflexible, I suppose?

Its amazing how fluid and nebulous desire can be.

Spoiler: @Blue

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It sounds to me like agender is the closest fit in terms of an identity for you as it matches how you feel about your physical attributes. *hugs*

[Serpentine]

If by any chance, someone who knows me offline sees this, please respect me and do not open it.

Spoiler: I've been thinking a lot...

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... and I don't think I'm cis. I don't really get what I feel, though.

I was AFAB. But I've never really felt female, much less the way other AFAB people seemed to feel female. Sure enough, I like some female things. I liked princesses, but not because of their feminine beauty and grace, but because of the pretty dresses that they wore. I like dresses. They're colorful and beautiful and elegant... but really only the formal wear. Other than that? Not really. I like suits too, but I think they lack variety, unlike the dazzling dresses.

Make-up, pretty shoes, pretty casual clothing, etc., I don't care for. I HATE the fact that I have breasts, to the point that I sometimes fantasize about cutting them off. But at the same time, I'm glad I don't have dangly bits. I don't want to be female... and I don't want to be male, either. Having no gender feels about right to me, but am I still agendered if I like some girly things like pretty dresses? Am I instead bi-gendered? It doesn't make sense... I don't like either gender. Neither feels "mine", so to speak. What makes someone agendered, exactly? And how would I go about transitioning to an agendered body? How do I even present as agendered?

I'm kind of confused, honestly.

Spoiler

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I feel similar - except that I'd only like much smaller breasts, not none at all. I don't consider myself agender or anything - if pressed I might say "gender apathetic", I just really don't care. I yam what I yam, and I like what II like regardless of how society has arbitrarily gendered them. I'm comfortable enough with my female body that I'm fairly definitely cissexual, but I have no great attachment to my "being female". Whether any of this applies to you, I don't know. I think only you can decide whether your feelings go deep enough to warrant a category alteration.
I would caution, though, against putting too much stock into the "girliness" of your interests. As far as I'm concerned, the sooner we get rid of the idea of things being "girly" or "for boys" the better. A purely cis girl can be totally into "boy" things like fishing and boxing and suits or whatever without being one iota less of a woman. Similarly, a boy can be into dolls and hairdressing and baking and still be all cis (or trans, for that matter) man. Those aren't a girl doing boy things or a boy into girly things, they're people doing their things.
If it turns out that you're something other than cis gender, it won't be because of your hobbies and interests. It'll be because of more fundamental, deeper parts of your personality, development, responses, interactions, self image and so on. Don't let yourself fall into the trap of defining yourself by outdated social stereotypes and mores.

Edit: I've heard homoflexible used before. Once or twice by me, to mostly-gay people trying to describe their sexualities to me, iirc with a response of "oh yeah, that works".

[Dazhbug]

Its amazing how fluid and nebulous desire can be.

Tell me about it *grumbles and bangs head gently against wall* It's been one of those days. My kingdom for a quick, painless, over-the-counter genderswap pill. And while I'm dreaming, I want a pony.

[SiuiS]

While that's sorted out, I'd just like to express how frustrating my indecisive nature can be.

Spoiler: Indecisive Ramblings

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I am not sure who or what I am. I don't want to be male, I hate this body and all it represents, but is wanting to be female the same thing as trans? Would hormones help me, or would they just screw me up even more? I'm scared, and I feel alone, lost betwixt and between. Every day is a struggle to put on my smile and face the world. I am rarely open even to those I am closest to, my eyes hiding my shadows. I was abused as a child,yes, but even before that, I wanted to be a woman. Being largely alone, I'd tell stories to myself, such as a man who could become a woman at will. That was something I wanted, needed, Right now, balding, hairy, I feel ugly and hideous, neither handsome nor beautiful. That's horribly vain, but it's how I feel, a freak show with nothing to offer the world but my emo sorrow. Often I just want to lay down and end this, yet, at the same time, death terrifies me, the ending of a rather pointless existence.

Yes, wanting to be the other side is. As far as J am concerned at least.

And I'm sorry for not saying anything about your personal triumph. I am sort of apathetic about support. It's easy to do wrong. So I just... Don't. Not unless it's big.

Silly of me to not view every personal triumph as big. In falter of in my old age.

Spoiler: Thank You

Show

Thank you. One thing that kind of tipped me over the edge was how, in the last thread, I reported what felt to me a real triumph, and, well, I didn't really get any response. Admittedly, it came just after a major, major announcement by another member, but I still felt . . . put down, like my happiness didn't matter. I don't open up much, even here, so, yeah, not the best feeling in the world. Still, again, thank you. I hope you are right.

I'm sorry. :(

If by any chance, someone who knows me offline sees this, please respect me and do not open it.

Spoiler: I've been thinking a lot...

Show

... and I don't think I'm cis. I don't really get what I feel, though.

I was AFAB. But I've never really felt female, much less the way other AFAB people seemed to feel female. Sure enough, I like some female things. I liked princesses, but not because of their feminine beauty and grace, but because of the pretty dresses that they wore. I like dresses. They're colorful and beautiful and elegant... but really only the formal wear. Other than that? Not really. I like suits too, but I think they lack variety, unlike the dazzling dresses.

Make-up, pretty shoes, pretty casual clothing, etc., I don't care for. I HATE the fact that I have breasts, to the point that I sometimes fantasize about cutting them off. But at the same time, I'm glad I don't have dangly bits. I don't want to be female... and I don't want to be male, either. Having no gender feels about right to me, but am I still agendered if I like some girly things like pretty dresses? Am I instead bi-gendered? It doesn't make sense... I don't like either gender. Neither feels "mine", so to speak. What makes someone agendered, exactly? And how would I go about transitioning to an agendered body? How do I even present as agendered?

I'm kind of confused, honestly.

Sounds agender, aye. How to transition? I don't know.

Hey folks, its been a while.

Seeing all the pretty people in their pretty OKC profiles makes me think I should really get around to updating mine. I guess its just that over the past year or so, while there have been times when I've really needed a hug, I haven't really felt like dating. There have also been one or two occasions where my heteroflexible side has wanted to come out and fun too. I don't think I'm bi or pan but I don't think I'm entirely straight either...

Speaking of, is there an equivalent term for folks that approach this from the other way, like lesbians that might be curious about guys? Homoflexible, I suppose?

Its amazing how fluid and nebulous desire can be.

Spoiler: @Blue

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It sounds to me like agender is the closest fit in terms of an identity for you as it matches how you feel about your physical attributes. *hugs*

Hi!

That's a good question. Hmm.

[Comrade]

Spoiler: Thank You

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Thank you. One thing that kind of tipped me over the edge was how, in the last thread, I reported what felt to me a real triumph, and, well, I didn't really get any response. Admittedly, it came just after a major, major announcement by another member, but I still felt . . . put down, like my happiness didn't matter. I don't open up much, even here, so, yeah, not the best feeling in the world. Still, again, thank you. I hope you are right.

Spoiler: .

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I honestly kinda get this sentiment. It sucks to say anything personal at all and be ignored, much less something important. I sometimes forget that everybody in this thread has something going on and it's petty of me to feel slighted if something I say kinda just goes under the radar. That isn't meant to say that that's the case with you, of course (just me blathering about myself again). But I'm sorry that happened, and you can't really be faulted for feeling the way you did because of it.

[Serpentine]

Watching the next movie in that SBS series. "Appropriate Behaviour", described as "Shirin is struggling to become an ideal Persian daughter, politically correct bisexual and hip young Brooklynite but fails miserably in her attempt at all identities." So far she's thrown out (then taken back) a humongous strap-on after breaking up with her girlfriend, then had a flashback at an attempted sexy accountant roleplay.
Looks interesting.
Edit: meh, it's not really doing it for me. It's not bad and the actors are fine, but I don't really like any of the actors and I'm not particularly a fan of drama and awkwardness. It's just a taste thing, though, if anyone fancies watching a low-key movie about an awkward gloomy Middle Eastern bisexual woman recovering from a break up this is worth a look.

Edit again: Another one, Geography Club. About a stealth high school queer support group. This one looks cute. Still awkward, but brighter and the characters seem more likeable (as of 5 minutes in).

[Jeff the Green]

Spoiler: @Blue

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It sounds to me like agender is the closest fit in terms of an identity for you as it matches how you feel about your physical attributes. *hugs*

Spoiler

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There are a few other terms that could, I believe, some with different denotations and some with different connotations. Aside from agender and bigender, androgyne and neutrois seem like possibilities. (Neutrois isn't in the glossary and I haven't heard it much, but it's sort of a neuter or neutral gender as opposed to a lack of gender.) From a purely denotative standpoint what you describe could probably fit any of them (and possibly others), depending on whether you feel most strongly about a lack of gender (agender), having aspects of both genders (bigender or androgyne), or a neutral gender (neutrois). All are generally considered genderqueer (which you could also identify as if none of the others work; it means basically anything not strictly male or female) and usually under the transgender/trans* umbrella, though this isn't always the case; JusticeZero, for example, identifies as agender but not transgender.

I wouldn't even consider recommending one over the others; I'm just listing options. I know more than most cis people who aren't either academics or activists, but only on the history and 'textbook' definitions, not so much connotations or culture. Plus I can't really divine your thoughts.

Speaking of, is there an equivalent term for folks that approach this from the other way, like lesbians that might be curious about guys? Homoflexible, I suppose?

I've heard that too and people will know what you mean if you use it, which is the important thing. I default to Kinsey (3<x<6), at least when I'm not speaking about specific person who has a preferred term. (I don't actually recommend this, as it's a bad habit derived from having a science degree from a liberal arts college.)

[Roland St. Jude]

Can we get a statement on the actions or behaviors which led to the thread closure? This would prevent confusion and (hopefully) prevent a repeat offence.

... so, do we have another topic to be added to the OP as a "don't go here" topic?

Sheriff: If we thought that a thread nudge would be useful, we would have included one. The problem here isn't really topical or widespread. It's just a general matter of abiding by the forum rules.

• Be civil toward, and respectful of, other posters.
• Avoid inflammatory, hostile comments.
• If you believe something violates the Forum Rules, please report the problem post and don't try to moderate or strike back at such posts.

And, as always, temper your comments and err on the side of caution.

[noparlpf]

If by any chance, someone who knows me offline sees this, please respect me and do not open it.

Spoiler: I've been thinking a lot...

Show

... and I don't think I'm cis. I don't really get what I feel, though.

I was AFAB. But I've never really felt female, much less the way other AFAB people seemed to feel female. Sure enough, I like some female things. I liked princesses, but not because of their feminine beauty and grace, but because of the pretty dresses that they wore. I like dresses. They're colorful and beautiful and elegant... but really only the formal wear. Other than that? Not really. I like suits too, but I think they lack variety, unlike the dazzling dresses.

Make-up, pretty shoes, pretty casual clothing, etc., I don't care for. I HATE the fact that I have breasts, to the point that I sometimes fantasize about cutting them off. But at the same time, I'm glad I don't have dangly bits. I don't want to be female... and I don't want to be male, either. Having no gender feels about right to me, but am I still agendered if I like some girly things like pretty dresses? Am I instead bi-gendered? It doesn't make sense... I don't like either gender. Neither feels "mine", so to speak. What makes someone agendered, exactly? And how would I go about transitioning to an agendered body? How do I even present as agendered?

I'm kind of confused, honestly.

Non-binary identities seem super confusing. I feel a bit similarly* but still identify as cis; but it's up to you what word you pick. As for transition, Stiffler of FindChaos is agender and they're starting a low dose of testosterone to shift away from the estrogen-shaped body type a bit. It depends on what you want and what you think would make you most comfortable. If you want to get a breast reduction without dealing with gender therapists and stuff, just say you have a grandparent or cousin who had breast cancer and they probably won't actually check. Or like, don't do that because it's probably insurance fraud. I'm not exactly your best ethical counsel.

*I can't stand our cultural "masculinity", but I'm pretty much comfortable with my body. I'd prefer if facial hair growth were under conscious control and/or if beards were retractable. I just want to have 1-2 mm of stubble forever without having to trim it. And I would probably rather be neuter than male, but not enough to do anything about it. Pretty sure that in my case the genital dysphasia is sexuality-related and not gender-related, though.

[Heliomance]

Day 1!

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[Anarion]

Day 1!

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Let us know how it goes. Congrats on starting.

Also, for people mentioning that things don't always get acknowledged, I'm sorry. I try to read everything but it's easy to get behind.

[Coidzor]

Spoiler: bluewind95

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I was AFAB. But I've never really felt female, much less the way other AFAB people seemed to feel female. Sure enough, I like some female things. I liked princesses, but not because of their feminine beauty and grace, but because of the pretty dresses that they wore. I like dresses. They're colorful and beautiful and elegant... but really only the formal wear. Other than that? Not really. I like suits too, but I think they lack variety, unlike the dazzling dresses.

That's... not really something that would make someone female or not, though. It literally just doesn't reflect one way or the other for your gender identity, and the part that actually matters is how you feel and identify, not external trappings like whether you like pinks or purples.

Plenty of women like princesses or did as children, sure, but by the same token, there are many women who don't like princesses or only like the schmaltzy dresses, and there's a variety of reasons for that, ranging from the political to economical to feminist critiques of royalty and gendered narratives that seek to constrain female fantasy and ambition to an inferior, dependent position.

It's sort of a gross over-reduction of what femininity and female-ness is to immediately jump to princesses as the end-all, be-all of those who identify as female, though, and a bit problematical when you try to take feminism into account.

You've gotta do you, but I'd think very carefully about how you'd approach a general conversation about femininity, especially in a context where feminism isn't a dirty word, because this is very much the sort of thing which does not translate well if you'd try to externalize or generalize it to others.

Make-up, pretty shoes, pretty casual clothing, etc., I don't care for.

Again, as said, someone liking or not liking or actively hating that stuff has nothing to do with whether they're female. Or male, for that matter.

Or both or neither or...

Having no gender feels about right to me, but am I still agendered if I like some girly things like pretty dresses?

Liking dresses or not liking them in the first place isn't a prerequisite for femininity nor does it discount or prohibit someone from being agendered.

Hell, I like pretty dresses and I'm cishet male scum.

So, yes, agender people can like pretty dresses. Cisgender people can like pretty dresses. Transgender people can like pretty dresses, although in some places they're still encouraged to hide that fact because of stupid gender essentialism.

Am I instead bi-gendered? It doesn't make sense... I don't like either gender. Neither feels "mine", so to speak.

Well, why do you think you might be bigender? If you don't feel like a combination of male and female, though, or like a combination of any two sorts of gender, it doesn't really seem like that would be the case from what you're saying here.

What makes someone agendered, exactly?

What makes someone cisgender or transgender? Last I checked, we don't even.

That said, there seem to be two main camps of agender identities that I've encountered. People who passively don't feel a connection with either gender and so feel they lack gender and then people who actively feel an anti-connection with gender the same way that a transgender person might experience gender dysphoria and actively feel themselves to be their gender rather than what sex they were assigned at birth.

Sort of the difference between gender just not fitting them and actively being repulsed by/rejecting gender in the personal realm.

The language is a bit troublesome for me there, sorry.

And how would I go about transitioning to an agendered body?

Do you want to transition in the first place? What do you want to transition to?

Or perhaps how do you want to transition?

It's not like you're required to have a double mastectomy and a hysterectomy or anything. If that's what you want, that's your business, but getting those surgeries can be quite complicated without health complications.

How do I even present as agendered?

There isn't really a defined presentation for androgyny, neutrois, agender, bigender, or, really, very many gender nonconforming individuals.

Dressing how you like and what feels right for you is a good foundational principle, though.

Day 1!

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Huzzah!

[SiuiS]

Sheriff: If we thought that a thread nudge would be useful, we would have included one. The problem here isn't really topical or widespread. It's just a general matter of abiding by the forum rules.

• Be civil toward, and respectful of, other posters.
• Avoid inflammatory, hostile comments.
• If you believe something violates the Forum Rules, please report the problem post and don't try to moderate or strike back at such posts.

And, as always, temper your comments and err on the side of caution.

Roger.

Day 1!

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It just occurred to me this means you aren't (weren't) on hormones this whole time. You just look that good.

[Absol197]

Hi guys.

Raven and Blue, I am going to respond to you, but I want to take time and think through my response, and I can't do that while being randomly bombarded by phone calls at work. I'll do so when I get home.

I do have a question, though. I've met a girl. Sort of. There's a sub shop in the basement of my office building. She works in a different building nearby, but comes in every once and a while and we see each other. She's a video gamer and we've had a bunch of fun conversations about video games and other topics of shared interest.

The problem is, I don't know if she likes girls or not. Statistics says that she probably doesn't. How do you go about asking someone if they're gay? I have no idea...

EDIT: Oh, and YAY TAMSIN! I'm so glad you finally got your hormones. It's a travesty that it takes that long over there. But I'm so happy for you!

[Jormengand]

Day 1!

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Jealousy ensues.

[SiuiS]

Hi guys.

Raven and Blue, I am going to respond to you, but I want to take time and think through my response, and I can't do that while being randomly bombarded by phone calls at work. I'll do so when I get home.

I do have a question, though. I've met a girl. Sort of. There's a sub shop in the basement of my office building. She works in a different building nearby, but comes in every once and a while and we see each other. She's a video gamer and we've had a bunch of fun conversations about video games and other topics of shared interest.

The problem is, I don't know if she likes girls or not. Statistics says that she probably doesn't. How do you go about asking someone if they're gay? I have no idea...

EDIT: Oh, and YAY TAMSIN! I'm so glad you finally got your hormones. It's a travesty that it takes that long over there. But I'm so happy for you!

Sub shop? You mean sandwiches right? Too many late night discussions...

The secret to this is, it doesn't matter if she likes girls, it matters if she likes you. Ask her out. Ask her out without requiring judgement of her orientation or any of that. Orientation is just a trend. Deviations happen. Y'know?

[Coidzor]

While that's sorted out, I'd just like to express how frustrating my indecisive nature can be.

Spoiler: Indecisive Ramblings

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I am not sure who or what I am. I don't want to be male, I hate this body and all it represents, but is wanting to be female the same thing as trans? Would hormones help me, or would they just screw me up even more? I'm scared, and I feel alone, lost betwixt and between. Every day is a struggle to put on my smile and face the world. I am rarely open even to those I am closest to, my eyes hiding my shadows. I was abused as a child,yes, but even before that, I wanted to be a woman. Being largely alone, I'd tell stories to myself, such as a man who could become a woman at will. That was something I wanted, needed, Right now, balding, hairy, I feel ugly and hideous, neither handsome nor beautiful. That's horribly vain, but it's how I feel, a freak show with nothing to offer the world but my emo sorrow. Often I just want to lay down and end this, yet, at the same time, death terrifies me, the ending of a rather pointless existence.

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That is pretty rough, feeling that way. I'm sorry. And also sorry I missed your post in the last thread.

The problem is, I don't know if she likes girls or not. Statistics says that she probably doesn't. How do you go about asking someone if they're gay? I have no idea...

What, you'll only date women if they're gay? If not, then why would it matter if she's gay or if she's bi or pan or...?

At any rate, you just ask her out to coffee or on a date or whathaveyou if you're interested in asking her out to coffee or on a date or whathaveyou.

[Absol197]

Sub shop? You mean sandwiches right? Too many late night discussions...

Yes, sub sandwiches .

The secret to this is, it doesn't matter if she likes girls, it matters if she likes you. Ask her out. Ask her out without requiring judgement of her orientation or any of that. Orientation is just a trend. Deviations happen. Y'know?

What, you'll only date women if they're gay? If not, then why would it matter if she's gay or if she's bi or pan or...?

At any rate, you just ask her out to coffee or on a date or whathaveyou if you're interested in asking her out to coffee or on a date or whathaveyou.

You people are making this seem so much easier than it is...*grumble grumble grumble*

[Ravens_cry]

Well, I will say it again then. Thank you everyone for the kind responses. They mean a lot.
What I wanted everyone to know was that I was in contact with my older sister recently, and apparently she's getting married next year. I asked her if it was OK with her if I wore a dress to the event, It's her wedding, but this is very important to me.
She said yes.

[Coidzor]

Well, I will say it again then. Thank you everyone for the kind responses. They mean a lot.
What I wanted everyone to know was that I was in contact with my older sister recently, and apparently she's getting married next year. I asked her if it was OK with her if I wore a dress to the event, It's her wedding, but this is very important to me.
She said yes.

Huzzah!

You people are making this seem so much easier than it is...*grumble grumble grumble*

Well, we're simplifying it by removing unnecessary steps, I suppose.

Feeling her out to see if she'll go crazy homophobic on you or threaten you or your job is the trickiest component of such a scenario, dwarfing the difficulties of actually asking her out on a date. So if you're already past that point then you've got a situation with a fairly direct solution.

[Anarion]

Sub shop? You mean sandwiches right? Too many late night discussions...

The secret to this is, it doesn't matter if she likes girls, it matters if she likes you. Ask her out. Ask her out without requiring judgement of her orientation or any of that. Orientation is just a trend. Deviations happen. Y'know?

This is well put. Really quite eloquent.

@Ravens_cry. Awesome news. I'm glad to hear that your sister wants you to be part of her special day. I'm sure you'll have a great time. And congratulations to her on the wedding.

[Lissou]

If by any chance, someone who knows me offline sees this, please respect me and do not open it.

Spoiler: I've been thinking a lot...

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... and I don't think I'm cis. I don't really get what I feel, though.

I was AFAB. But I've never really felt female, much less the way other AFAB people seemed to feel female. Sure enough, I like some female things. I liked princesses, but not because of their feminine beauty and grace, but because of the pretty dresses that they wore. I like dresses. They're colorful and beautiful and elegant... but really only the formal wear. Other than that? Not really. I like suits too, but I think they lack variety, unlike the dazzling dresses.

Make-up, pretty shoes, pretty casual clothing, etc., I don't care for. I HATE the fact that I have breasts, to the point that I sometimes fantasize about cutting them off. But at the same time, I'm glad I don't have dangly bits. I don't want to be female... and I don't want to be male, either. Having no gender feels about right to me, but am I still agendered if I like some girly things like pretty dresses? Am I instead bi-gendered? It doesn't make sense... I don't like either gender. Neither feels "mine", so to speak. What makes someone agendered, exactly? And how would I go about transitioning to an agendered body? How do I even present as agendered?

I'm kind of confused, honestly.

Spoiler

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First, I just wanted to point out: I don't know if you changed it after the fact or not, but your gender symbol appears publicly. Which means that anyone who knows you in real life, even if they don't open the spoiler, will basically get the same information from your gender symbol. You might want to hide it too if that's important to you.

Second, that sounds like me in some ways. Unlike you I don't like dresses either, but I don't see why liking dresses would have anything to do with your gender. There are cis guys who like dresses. Trans guys too for that matter. That doesn't make them female. So if liking dresses doesn't make someone not a guy, why would it make someone not agender?

Transitioning doesn't seem like much of an option as there isn't really something established to transition to. I think the most common approach is to just be yourself, potentially compensating for the sex you were assigned at birth by going a little bit more the other way, in your case going a bit more masculine to offset it for instance.

Personally, I've decided to just let "female" be assigned to me and not worry about it. It seems like too much of a hassle to correct people when there isn't really something correct for them to do instead. I don't care about pronouns so they can call me "she" all they want (or "he" for that matter if they feel like it) and the times when someone would tell me I can't or have to do something "because you're a woman" would be a problem even if I were, and that's the more concerning issue, I feel, so that's what I would want to correct first.

I have thought of having my breasts removed, but sometimes I'm fine with them and sometimes I actually like them. I don't think I'm genderfluid though because I don't notice a change in who I am, I never really identify with one or the other, only with facets of what we associate with one or the other.

[Astrella]

Well, I will say it again then. Thank you everyone for the kind responses. They mean a lot.
What I wanted everyone to know was that I was in contact with my older sister recently, and apparently she's getting married next year. I asked her if it was OK with her if I wore a dress to the event, It's her wedding, but this is very important to me.
She said yes.

That's great mew.

[Anarion]

Stepping back for a moment, does anyone else find it kind of silly that whether one's garment has a closed stitch inside the thigh or is loose hanging fabric is somehow the signal for a person's entire gender identity as far as most of society is concerned?

[Icewraith]

Stepping back for a moment, does anyone else find it kind of silly that whether one's garment has a closed stitch inside the thigh or is loose hanging fabric is somehow the signal for a person's entire gender identity as far as most of society is concerned?

Yes, because that's not quite right. Loose hanging fabric IS a strong indicator that a person is female, or Scottish. Closed stitch could be either, but the percentage is influenced by females in most cultures having the loose hanging fabric option. But it's not the same level of indicator at all.

Also, something cultural being silly if you remove the cultural context from it is sort of an automatic thing. "Culture" itself basically means "this won't make any sense to you if you don't already know what's going on."

[BootStrapTommy]

Does "feminist" work?

Less feminist, more what Extinguisher was talking about. Except slightly more certain about the being a male thing.

Yes, because that's not quite right. Loose hanging fabric IS a strong indicator that a person is female, or Scottish.

Or Japanese. Or Roman. Or Greek.

Or any culture prior to the popularization of pants. Stupid pants. Through much of history, most people were just happy if you wore clothes.

We often forget how the practices of that so called "Age of Enlightenment" shaped most of our gender perceptions.

[JusticeZero]

Spoiler: I've been thinking a lot...

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I was AFAB. But I've never really felt female, much less the way other AFAB people seemed to feel female. Sure enough, I like some female things. I liked princesses, but not because of their feminine beauty and grace, but because of the pretty dresses that they wore. I like dresses. They're colorful and beautiful and elegant... but really only the formal wear. Other than that? Not really. I like suits too, but I think they lack variety, unlike the dazzling dresses.

Make-up, pretty shoes, pretty casual clothing, etc., I don't care for. I HATE the fact that I have breasts, to the point that I sometimes fantasize about cutting them off. But at the same time, I'm glad I don't have dangly bits. I don't want to be female... and I don't want to be male, either. Having no gender feels about right to me, but am I still agendered if I like some girly things like pretty dresses? Am I instead bi-gendered? It doesn't make sense... I don't like either gender. Neither feels "mine", so to speak. What makes someone agendered, exactly? And how would I go about transitioning to an agendered body? How do I even present as agendered?

Spoiler: Some thoughts?

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Anything in the agender umbrella is going to be inherently confusing, because it's a much harder to define concept. Your description sounds a lot like me, though. Yes, you are allowed to like pretty dresses. There are a few things I like that are strongly gendered one way or another; I doubt there is anyone who completely rejects everything based on gender roles. That's a caricature, not a person!

Myself, I cringe if I am gendered, and that sounds a lot like you are describing. As far as stuff between your legs is concerned, I personally don't feel particularly attached to mine. I don't hate them, they just feel sort've external to me and tacked on. They keep my insides from pouring out though, and it's a lot of bother to change them.

YES. There are people who transition neutral. The book I was looking through recently operationalized "Neutrois" as nongendered people who sought physical transition to a non-gendered set of features.

I personally don't like to project gender cues at all, so I wouldn't use T; i'm pretty sure that female bodied people can voice train to add some resonance to their voice, since that's the aspect that flags as male moreso than pitch (unless the pitch goes outside a certain range). Binding or top surgery is also a possibility; you can still pass as female without them, since the range for female bodies goes all the way down to zero. As a female-bodied person, you have a huge advantage when presenting in a more masculine way, because you won't have any skeletal features that are outside of the norm for a male. Hair is the big indicator; a short unisex cut will put you square into the Vaarsuvius Club, and a stereotypical men's short haircut will negate an unavoidable feminine cue or two.

Also, apparently it is very common for full blown transmen to forgo the bottom surgery ANYWAYS, since nobody in the street is going to be looking and because right now, the state of the art in FtM bottom surgery is still somewhat dissapointing; as such, I wouldn't worry over that too much.

Just start adding things in, starting with the easy stuff, and trimming down on how many things about you throw out gender cues if that's what you feel you need to do. Since it's easiest, start with the hair and by looking at men's fashion.

You might want to lift some weights to build up the strength that men are expected to have. Upper body strength or the lack thereof is a surprisingly common thing that I encounter that feels gendered. As a female-bodied person, you will want to make sure that you are physically able to pick up heavy things any time you are feeling too girly, in my experience. There are very few things that I can completely control that will snap my internal gender in one direction or the other faster than either finding an excuse to pick up something heavy for someone, or getting someone to perform a physical feat of strength on my behalf. Since for me, that can save me from a dysphoria attack, I want to be able to do either one, but you can only develop the ability to perform 'manly' strength feats by working out on it in some way. :)

Is your presentation the thing that's bothering you, specifically? Or is it something else and you're bundling presentation into it? Sometimes i'll worry a lot more about my presentation when the real problem is that someone in my life just dropped something heavily gendered on me that wasn't affected by my presentation at all. Don't feel pressured into doing more extreme things than you actually need for your comfort just out of some idea that it is somehow expected of you, but do what you need to be able to feel comfortable with yourself.