OOTS #977 - The Discussion Thread

[SteveDJ]

So, based on her background, any chance Bandana can use those tank controls? The Crystal Meth golem might be strong, but I'm pretty sure running over her foot and applying the handbrake will buy the pair some time. Or maybe should fire the lightning gun wildly into the sky until someone else in the Order notices.

Well, given that Crystal just bashed through the wall of a shop, I am rather concerned that the whole tank, or whatever people are calling that thing, is going to be lying in pieces very soon.

[happycrow]

Wand of Empowered Telekinesis come pre-charged, and in a tubular, auto-loaded form for your convenience!

[Amphiox]

If you want off the shelf in a fantasy setting, crossbows are still your best bet. Gunpowder weapons of the type were talking about tended to be less than practical, and its entirely possible that the powder itself would be fairly rare due to how volatile it is. Just transporting the stuff would be dangerous.

I should clarify "of the shelf" a bit, as in the context of characters like these gnomes who nevertheless are making magi-techno unique weapons. So, more than just the stuff anyone can buy, but rather things that can be assembled from components that are relatively easy to buy to make simulacrums of real technologies. Basically steam-punk with magic, but with at least plausible deniability in-universe with respect to practicality. (There's no point in having a primitive firearm in a D&D setting unless it has *some* kind of advantage, whether in effectiveness or cost or the psychology of the character using it, over say a wand of magic missile...)

[Amphiox]

Incidentally, one of the main points about crossbows was that they can be used effectively without the extensive amount of training archers required.

True enough. But the reason early firearms supplanted crossbows is because they were even easier to use effectively without extensive training....

And perhaps the other reason is because of flexibility, as the early firearms also replaced the pikeman at the same time as it replaced the crossbow man.

[Keltest]

I should clarify "of the shelf" a bit, as in the context of characters like these gnomes who nevertheless are making magi-techno unique weapons. So, more than just the stuff anyone can buy, but rather things that can be assembled from components that are relatively easy to buy to make simulacrums of real technologies. Basically steam-punk with magic, but with at least plausible deniability in-universe with respect to practicality. (There's no point in having a primitive firearm in a D&D setting unless it has *some* kind of advantage, whether in effectiveness or cost or the psychology of the character using it, over say a wand of magic missile...)

I think crossbows still win there, actually. Lets make an (admittedly reasonable) assumption that the gnomes have access to the raw materials needed to make functional gunpowder devices. Making the stuff is still going to be more expensive (and dangerous) than creating, say, a crossbow bolt. Firearms would certainly have some advantages if you manage to actually hit anything with them and don't kill yourself by accident, but theyre going to be a fairly niche weapon even for the gnomes. Now, when you get larger scale, things like cannons could conceivably be vastly superior to ballistae or catapults, depending on the reliability of the powder and the quality of the cannon. But as you get smaller scale, the things just lose practicality.

True enough. But the reason early firearms supplanted crossbows is because they were even easier to use effectively without extensive training....

And perhaps the other reason is because of flexibility, as the early firearms also replaced the pikeman at the same time as it replaced the crossbow man.

What are you defining as "early firearms"? I seem to recall that the earliest ones developed were largely for show, as their use as a weapon was sharply limited by the quality of the powder and general lack of understanding about how to make the darn things shoot where you point them.

[Killer Angel]

True enough. But the reason early firearms supplanted crossbows is because they were even easier to use effectively without extensive training....

And perhaps the other reason is because of flexibility, as the early firearms also replaced the pikeman at the same time as it replaced the crossbow man.

If i'm not wrong, this happened only when volley firing had been developed. Before that, firearms covered only a marginal role of support.
Plus, noise and enemy horses.

[Emperordaniel]

I just realized - between Haley tossing a sack of cash to Ferdinand and Eartha, and whatever she spent on the airship, she's going to find out that she has gnomoney pretty soon at this rate.

[kivzirrum]

I just realized - between Haley tossing a sack of cash to Ferdinand and Eartha, and whatever she spent on the airship, she's going to find out that she has gnomoney pretty soon at this rate.

Perhaps she's doomed to an ignominious fate.

[Amphiox]

Firearms would certainly have some advantages if you manage to actually hit anything with them and don't kill yourself by accident, but theyre going to be a fairly niche weapon even for the gnomes. Now, when you get larger scale, things like cannons could conceivably be vastly superior to ballistae or catapults, depending on the reliability of the powder and the quality of the cannon. But as you get smaller scale, the things just lose practicality.



What are you defining as "early firearms"? I seem to recall that the earliest ones developed were largely for show, as their use as a weapon was sharply limited by the quality of the powder and general lack of understanding about how to make the darn things shoot where you point them.

I'm functionally defining "early firearms" as the first firearms to see practical use on a battlefield. In real life these would be the ones past the very first generation that were just novelty items, and saw their first usage alongside the older traditional weapons, rather than outright replacement, since they were not yet outright superior.

Iirc in real life the big honking cannons came before the smaller guns - at least the battlefield useful guns. This is a case where the advance in technology was not in scaling up, but in miniaturizing while maintaining effectiveness. It is easier, for example, to make a big, heavy bronze tube strong enough to withstand an explosion than it is to make a little tube light enough for a soldier to easily carry do the same.

[YossarianLives]

Stupid golems and having elements be beneficial to them.

Also I love how Rich drew the Gnomeland Security. Thanks!

[rbetieh]

Perhaps she's doomed to an ignominious fate.

gnomore shopping trips for her.

[Shining Wrath]

Perhaps the gnomes will be saved by ungulates, for from Crystal's viewpoint, right now no gnus is good gnus.

[Keltest]

I'm functionally defining "early firearms" as the first firearms to see practical use on a battlefield. In real life these would be the ones past the very first generation that were just novelty items, and saw their first usage alongside the older traditional weapons, rather than outright replacement, since they were not yet outright superior.

Iirc in real life the big honking cannons came before the smaller guns - at least the battlefield useful guns. This is a case where the advance in technology was not in scaling up, but in miniaturizing while maintaining effectiveness. It is easier, for example, to make a big, heavy bronze tube strong enough to withstand an explosion than it is to make a little tube light enough for a soldier to easily carry do the same.

Oh. I think that's a rather pointless discussion then. We already know that once firearms became practical, theres no reason not to use them. That actually happened. The thing is, people in general are still using greatswords and crossbows, so we can deduce they aren't at that level of technology yet, because the firearms were in fact so much better they made most other things obsolete.

does that make sense? I hope it makes sense.

[Amphiox]

For the purposes of my thought experiment, explosive runes can be replaced with any other explodey spell. That's all a firearm is, really, an explosion contained and directed by a tube to expel an object with sufficient mass that the kinetic energy it gains from the acceleration is sufficient for battlefield effectiveness.

The main criteria is it needs to have a favourable cost/skill/effectiveness ratio compared to the mundane equivalent. So relatively low level spell craft for a weapon you'd arm low level kooks with, and needing some kind of advantage over a wand that would lead a military to chose it over the wand.

If one wants to go epic, you could imagine an epic wizard altering force cage into a tube, perhaps making the ammunition out of an altered force cage, or using teleport/plane shift to the elemental plane of adamantium bowling balls, and using the biggest epic explosion magic can create to make a magic artillery piece that could hit and destroy the moon....

[Zyzzyva]

And perhaps the other reason is because of flexibility, as the early firearms also replaced the pikeman at the same time as it replaced the crossbow man.

Not actually true! You need the bayonet for that, and that's a late 17th C innovation. The arquebuse started supplanting the crossbow nearly a century before pikes were replaced by musketeers. The whole Thirty Years War was fought with mixed pike-and-musket squares.

...Looks like the muskets have gno bayonets anyways, though, so Crystal's one-woman cavalry charge is going to mess them up anyways.

[Doug Lampert]

Oh. I think that's a rather pointless discussion then. We already know that once firearms became practical, theres no reason not to use them. That actually happened. The thing is, people in general are still using greatswords and crossbows, so we can deduce they aren't at that level of technology yet, because the firearms were in fact so much better they made most other things obsolete.

does that make sense? I hope it makes sense.

There was a centuries long transition. Still not quite entirely complete as adding a sharp pointy thing to your rifle to make it act like a spear is still something soldiers train to do.

At Malta or the English Civil War the vast majority of the soldiers had guns, and the handful of guys in armor with greatswords could still fight (very) effectively as the guns couldn't yet pierce the very best armor even at contact range.

At Malta the Turks were basically entirely firearm armed (implying that guns were practical battlefield weapons as they were one of the most professional forces in existence), and lost, partly because they had nothing to deal with guys in very good, very heavy plate armor. The Turks actually tried stunts like coating a big metal hoop in burning pitch and trying to place it over a knight's head in the hope that this would be more effective than the guns.

In the English Civil war we have multiple accounts of people placing a gun against someone's helmet or breastplate, pulling the trigger, and it being totally ineffective due to armor. And Cromwell's forces cavalry manual recommended carrying at least three firearms, firing two volleys while closing, and saving the last pistol to either cover the retreat or for use in pursuit.

Sir Francis Drake and other English Pirates/Privateers of a generation earlier had a substantial advantage over the Spainiards in their superior armor, but everyone on both sides was carrying firearms or operating canon.

Similarly, one of Gustav Adolphus's innovations (in the 1600's) was to tell his cavalry to stop wasting time with relatively ineffective pistols and charge home with lances and swords. He did this at the SAME TIME he was upgrading the artillery and shifting from roughly 2:1 pikes to muskets for the infantry to something like 1:2 instead, so he obviously thought guns COULD be effective weapons since they were the main thing he depended on.

So if you want guns and greatswords and armor all on the field at once, there are plenty of examples. And the examples all lead to "In a setting in this period PC types just carry guns as a sidearm for when they're closing or desperate, low level NPC warrior or commoner types are the ones who actually depend on the guns".

[Emperordaniel]

Perhaps the gnomes will be saved by ungulates, for from Crystal's viewpoint, right now no gnus is good gnus.

That would be a really ignomble fate.

[Grey Watcher]

Look Haley, Celia was right: "lightning heals flesh golems" is pretty obscure knowledge after all!

In fact, it's about as obscure as the metaphysics of vampiric souls (ie only one out of four gnomes in a relevant profession knows).

[ti'esar]

Look Haley, Celia was right: "lightning heals flesh golems" is pretty obscure knowledge after all!

In fact, it's about as obscure as the metaphysics of vampiric souls (ie only one out of four gnomes in a relevant profession knows).

Heh. I didn't even consider that part of it until now.

[Amphiox]

Look Haley, Celia was right: "lightning heals flesh golems" is pretty obscure knowledge after all!

In fact, it's about as obscure as the metaphysics of vampiric souls (ie only one out of four gnomes in a relevant profession knows).

And the gnomes are batting a full 25% higher on both than any other previously shown race/nationality/group....

[goto124]

Do guns even exist in OotSverse? The airship has crossbows instead of cannons, for one thing.

But harpoons!

[Jasdoif]

Do guns even exist in OotSverse?

Yes indeed.

[KillingAScarab]

The main criteria is it needs to have a favourable cost/skill/effectiveness ratio compared to the mundane equivalent. So relatively low level spell craft for a weapon you'd arm low level kooks with, and needing some kind of advantage over a wand that would lead a military to chose it over the wand.

D&D 3.X doesn't seem suited to modeling this with default costs, to me. Compare the costs of paying a spellcaster to cast the required spells for your magical ammunition to the cost of the mundane ammunition. Granted, that's for a service the party is intended to have access to, so there could be some sort of bulk discount if you're talking about building an industry around this sort of thing. Maybe you create a state (kingdom/empire/whatever) where the magical college was founded largely for equipping an army, the students are expected to be crafting wands needed for the war effort, that sort of thing. Perhaps Eberron's Last War spawned something like this before House Cannith created the warforged.

Wand of Empowered Telekinesis come pre-charged, and in a tubular, auto-loaded form for your convenience!

Telekinesis is a fifth level spell before any metamagic, wands only allow fourth level spells or lower.

Do guns even exist in OotSverse? The airship has crossbows instead of cannons, for one thing.

But harpoons!

Yes indeed.

There are three gnomes holding muskets in panel 3 of the topic of this very thread, #977. Easy to overlook them since your eye gets drawn toward the big-honking-weapons platform behind them.

[Grey Watcher]

Yes indeed.

Well, there were until panel 2, at least.

[ahdok]

Do guns even exist in OotSverse?

I can't beat this joke

[BriarHobbit]

Matters just got dire. A hastened flesh golem is no joke.

[LtPowers]

"Department of Gnomeland Security" is glorious/cheeseball/priceless in roughly equal parts.

Indeed, but Giant can't get all the credit. EverQuest II did it first.


Powers &8^]

[Burner28]

Awesome strip.

[happycrow]

And perhaps the other reason is because of flexibility, as the early firearms also replaced the pikeman at the same time as it replaced the crossbow man.

Actually, that's not the case unless you count the wheel lock in the equation. Pikemen remained a major factor until heavy cavalry was shoved off the battlefield and the bayonet was made a workable weapon. Wheel-lock pistols used by mounted reiters (NOT pikemen) took care of the heavy-cav. After that there was still need for pikemen, but gradually the mix became more and more shot and less and less pike, until the plug bayonet was replaced with the socket bayonet. It's a fascinating set of transitions.

In DnD, one of the easy hand-waves for "Why aren't we all running around on horses," is that they would generally be horrible for any high-magic campaign. It takes training just to get them used to the sound of bows and arrows, let alone guns and cannon, let alone not panicking due to (insert entire school of evocation here). One well laid grease or entangle spell and you've lost a slew of horses to injuries and riders suffering fall injuries, etc. You'd absolutely still need fighters and medium/heavy infantry, but traditional heavy-cav would be exceptionally vulnerable, with social signifiers not being merely the ability to afford the armor, but also the abjurative protections to ward off incoming magic as well.

EDIT: the above remarks about Gustavus are accurate, too. Pistols were horrible weapons for engaging pikemen and infantry, but just dandy for taking out enemy cavalry. The french were the last to try to hold onto heavy lancers and even then they weren't long before abandoning them. The return of pikes to the battlefield actually made heavy cavalry *more* important through the middle of this era, as neither shot nor pike had any real mobility. They were the kings of holding ground, but not always the best choice for taking it. The Turks went in for pike and shot in a big way (part of the problem of the siege of Vienna for them was that they actually went overboard a bit and didn't have enough cavalry to counter the Poles, and so lost the mobility game badly). Their jeniceri riflemen could penetrate armor. But rifles were not the most common issue even for the jeniceri, and muskets were useless against heavy armor. (AS were wheel-lock pistols, too - reiters could get close enough to shoot at the rider's less-armored bits, or else shoot Mr. Ed in the face, at which point your heavy lancer has real issues, starting with d6 fall damage in a world with no potions or clerics).

[happycrow]

Also,

q) How do you get a history major off your front porch?

a) Pay for the flippin' pizza ya goob.