[Unchained] Jason Buhlman confirmed Summoner is in for some nerfs

[Snowbluff]

I like Lore, means you can be an expert in X without knowing Everything that might be tangentially related to X.

Isn't this why we roll?

^Not being facetious, just really meta.

[Seerow]

What is the difference between Lore and Knowledge?

[Milo v3]

What is the difference between Lore and Knowledge?

Lore is super specific (which is why it's a background skill rather than adventuring skill).

Knowledge (Arcana) might have all the information on Constructs, Dragons Magic Technology, Magical Beasts, etc.

Lore (Owlbear) will have all the information on just Owlbear related things.

[Raven777]

Including (Owlbear) husbandry? Especially (Owlbear) husbandry.

[Starbuck_II]

Am I the only one who thinks that they should do away with spells for the Summoner and Witch, and give them more interesting class features of the SLA and SNA quality? Also, tie the Eidolon's abilities more closely to the Summoner itself. Juat spitballi'n here, but maybe have its physical stats more directly linked to the Summoner's mental stats or health. Just a thought...

Whoa, now, the Witch has awesome spells that exclusive like Vomit Swarm: Summon Swarm that you control.

[stack]

Alchemist gets vomit swarm as well.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Well, Witch is really just Warlock-lite in terms of flavor, so I'd certainly be all for just putting a better warlock there.

I can't complain about their spell list, though. It's not terribly strong, but I still like it.

[Psyren]

Ba-Dum-Bump because the first preview is out today on the Paizo Blog - "Time To Break Your Chains!"

Summary of the class changes discussed:

Barbarian: As we already knew, they are going to the temp HP approach that will keep you alive when rage drops, instead of the bonus Con approach that made you very dead. They're also powering up some of the weaker rage powers, like Raging Climber (which will give you a climb speed now instead of a bonus to Climb.)

Monk: Seems like the entire class will be borrowing from Qinggong now - the Unchained Monk can mix and match a variety of abilities over its career, letting you be a kung-fu master or a mystic who uses divinations and other out of combat toys. It will also get full BAB and an "all-new flurry," as well as "strikes" that let it do special things in combat. The one they previewed was "Flying Kick," which lets you leap and kick a certain distance away (up to your bonus speed) once per flurry. (Hmm... If you can declare flurry -> flying kick to target as first attack -> continue flurry on target, this will basically become pounce for every monk - and a pounce that might clear some terrain or obstacles no less.)

Rogue: Dex to damage! (Somehow. No details yet.) They're also getting a debuff mechanic ("debilitation") which should make them, or perhaps their party, more formidable in combat. It looks like they are getting special rogue-only skill uses that function like skill tricks did in 3.5. These include the ability to Bluff your way around truth-telling magic, limited mind-reading with Sense Motive, and use Disable Device to protect themselves from a trap that's already gone off. Also, like the barbarian, some of their weaker rogue talents are getting buffed - for example, minor magic will let them use the cantrip at-will instead of x/day. So if you ever wanted that rogue who has stuff just fall into her lap, stick mage hand on her. Finally, they're getting Weapon Finesse for free at long last.

And finally, the class that started this thread:

Summoner: It looks like the "themed eidolons" prediction might be coming true - they are now going to be closer to existing outsider types. They mentioned protean, for a more euclidean pet, and angelic so far. But with the limitations of the packages will come some abilities that the eidolon doesn't have now, like a magic circle against evil aura for the angelic eidolon. They also mentioned that the spell list is being adjusted to what was "originally intended" - whatever that ends up meaning.

Some tidbits from Skills and Feats will be previewed next week. No word on the Fighter yet.

Also, here's JB with the book (or at least just the cover), the bastard:

Spoiler

Show

[Vhaidara]

It looks like they are getting special rogue-only skill uses that function like skill tricks did in 3.5.

I like the sound of all of it (except the summoner thing, but that's a given, since removing customization = bad). However, this sounds like a bad thing to me. I dislike that the rogue will now simply be better at some skills than any other class can be. Unless they include an amateur feat (like for gunslinger, swash, and invest), I just feel it is going to force people to dip rogue when running, say, skill monkey Inquisitor or Bard.

[squiggit]

Monk and Rogue changes sound cool

Barbarian changes look more like polishing/balancing than a re-imagining.

Still not a fan of Summoner changes.

[Psyren]

I like the sound of all of it (except the summoner thing, but that's a given, since removing customization = bad). However, this sounds like a bad thing to me. I dislike that the rogue will now simply be better at some skills than any other class can be. Unless they include an amateur feat (like for gunslinger, swash, and invest), I just feel it is going to force people to dip rogue when running, say, skill monkey Inquisitor or Bard.

I'm honestly not too worried about them either way. They sound like nice-to-haves rather than must-haves.

Take the trap thing. A rogue can use DD to reduce the damage from a trap. An Inquisitor can't, but they can use Resist Energy instead, or magic vestment, or just heal the extra damage. A rogue can detect thoughts with Sense Motive, while a Bard or Inquisitor can use the spell. It's all relative. Sure they can't exactly start chanting mid-conversation, but that just means you cast it outside before walking in or something. A small advantage to the rogue in certain situations, but not actually barred functionality the way things are now, and the rogue should have somet small advantages.

Of course, I wouldn't be upset at an "amateur X"-ish feat too, so long as the rogue does not also have to take it to gain these abilities.

[Snowbluff]

Magic Circle sounds a bit of a **** replacement for a cool class.

Rogues already had debuffs and skill use bonuses. Why are they saying this is a new feat- oh.

[PsyBomb]

I am cautiously optimistic about these. Barb simplification and buffing the worthless rage bowers is good.

Monk will depend on the nature of the rest of the new moves.

LOVE the rogue stuff, being so skillful they edge into supernatural use. Makes them unique again.

Edit: depending on how much customizability remains to the eidolon, I like what they're doing there as well... though cautiously, pending the new spell list

[deuxhero]

As they are changing class features, I wonder if this will apply to class that share those features (such as if a bloodrager can avoid dieing from their con bonus running out too)

Lore is super specific (which is why it's a background skill rather than adventuring skill).

Knowledge (Arcana) might have all the information on Constructs, Dragons Magic Technology, Magical Beasts, etc.

Lore (Owlbear) will have all the information on just Owlbear related things.

Would be nice to have a religious character that didn't know about every obscure undead (and yet fail to recognize his deity's servants and domain because those are under Planes) because he knows about his religion.

[Psyren]

Would be nice to have a religious character that didn't know about every obscure undead (and yet fail to recognize his deity's servants and domain because those are under Planes) because he knows about his religion.

If there are obscure undead in your campaign, raise the DC. The given formula is explicitly supposed to be general.

[Snowbluff]

If there are obscure undead in your campaign, raise the DC. The given formula is explicitly supposed to be general.

Really, they should have consolidated skills. Religion and planes really should just be one skill.

[georgie_leech]

Really, they should have consolidated skills. Religion and planes really should just be one skill.

Then you just end up with the oddity of Wizards that spend all their time studying the Elemental Planes knowing a great deal about what a Pelorian marriage ceremony looks like.

[Snowbluff]

Then you just end up with the oddity of Wizards that spend all their time studying the Elemental Planes knowing a great deal about what a Pelorian marriage ceremony looks like.

Yes. Pelor. The outsider that people worship. The one that doesn't live on the material plane.

You guys can all play background skill designer all you want, but the fact of the matter is that you should probably know what a Pelorite wedding looks like in the first place.

[atemu1234]

Yes. Pelor. The outsider that people worship. The one that doesn't live on the material plane.

You guys can all play background skill designer all you want, but the fact of the matter is that you should probably know what a Pelorite wedding looks like in the first place.

Maybe. But just because I can identify it on sight doesn't make me know about its origin, symbolism and significance just because I took a bachelor's course in Study of the Transient Planes in Wizard schools.

[Snowbluff]

Maybe. But just because I can identify it on sight doesn't make me know about its origin, symbolism and significance just because I took a bachelor's course in Study of the Transient Planes in Wizard schools.

Um, the Pelor-based symbolism? The stuff all based on the outsider?

No, it must be owlbears. Owlbears are why we carry our swords to our weddings. Owlbears invented swords, you know.

[TheIronGolem]

Planes seems to me to be the cosmic equivalent of geography, whereas Religion would be cultural/anthropological studies. There'd be some overlap, but they should be distinct fields. Planes can tell you where Pelor hangs out, but it shouldn't tell you what he does there.

[Snowbluff]

Planes seems to me to be the cosmic equivalent of geography, whereas Religion would be cultural/anthropological studies. There'd be some overlap, but they should be distinct fields. Planes can tell you where Pelor hangs out, but it shouldn't tell you what he does there.

Um, no. As an outsider, he's already covered by the Planes skill. If you roll a Know: Planes on Pelor, it will tell you about his lore. Most of the religion in the game, is based on creatures you could know about by rolling the Planes skill. Ergo, having 2 skills for that in a game that consolidated multiple skills into skills like Stealth and Perception, it patently ridiculous. It's a waste of text, it's a waste of space on a character sheet, and it's a waste of skill points.

As for a "wizards wouldn't know that" argument, it says Knowledge (All) (Int) in there description. It's a part of your job to know facts about the world. If you don't like that your character knowing things in order to interface better with the world, tell your DM that "Flunky McFailedatwizardschool" wouldn't know that. Keep your own fluff consistent if it's such a big deal for you.

[Thealtruistorc]

Maybe it'll be an X/day resource. Then I can have a single consistent reason for disliking Paizo classes (I hate resource management, every time I use it it bites me in the ass one way or the other)

Why I left 4th edition behind in a nutshell. Personally, if you want to limit things that aren't world-altering like spells, something strikes me as off about your design philosophy.

I'm secretly hoping that Paizo has been taking notes from Dreamscarred Press following the successes of Path of War (I know that I tend to harp on certain aspects, but as a whole I absolutely love the addition), and may implement many of their ideas into Unchained.

As for the Summoner, I agree that the spell list more than anything needs some hardcore nerfing. Our group has an outright ban on summoner-made wands. However, I do think that an eidolon fairly its present form may be salvaged if Paizo plays their cards right.

[Snowbluff]

I hope they have more interesting summoner based spells if the list is being otherwise nerfed.

[Milo v3]

I'm happy with them attaching the eidolon with the outsider types, letting them get specific powers for different types. Hopefully Elemental will be one of them.

Rogues finally getting something that makes them good at skills will be rather cool.

[squiggit]

I'm happy with them attaching the eidolon with the outsider types, letting them get specific powers for different types.

Funny. I have to say that's the worst part of the whole change to me. Reduces customization without addressing underlying problems.

[Psyren]

I can see the argument for combining Planes and Religion and I'm pretty ambivalent about it. If they did it I wouldn't complain, nor if they didn't.

My main issue with combining Knowledge-skills is that the knowledge-monkey classes quickly have to end up branching into other areas. I don't think it makes sense that being a bookworm makes you acrobatic, athletic or persuasive, but when they run out of other places to spend the points because there are only 3-4 knowledge skills, that's what we'd end up with.

Funny. I have to say that's the worst part of the whole change to me. Reduces customization without addressing underlying problems.

It could address them actually. Depending on the packages, it could be a lot harder to get Schrodinger's Eidolon, that can be the skillmonkey or the thousand-cuts-beatstick or the party taxi or the sumo wrestler with just a few EP difference between them. For example, the one they previewed (Protean) will probably be really good at fighting in melee but less adept at using skills or fighting from range.

The problem is less with an eidolon that can potentially do anything, and more with an eidolon that can do everything, in the same campaign, with minimal resource investment required to switch. One of the more minor issues with the class, but it's still there.

[Milo v3]

Funny. I have to say that's the worst part of the whole change to me. Reduces customization without addressing underlying problems.

My players found it difficult to see the eidolon as anything other than a bundle of stats, and found it difficult to make them an oni or genie, so this would be increasing the customization in my group's case.

[squiggit]

My main issue with combining Knowledge-skills is that the knowledge-monkey classes quickly have to end up branching into other areas. I don't think it makes sense that being a bookworm makes you acrobatic, athletic or persuasive, but when they run out of other places to spend the points because there are only 3-4 knowledge skills, that's what we'd end up with.

I'd say it actually makes more sense the other way. Yeah, being a bookworm doesn't make you acrobatic or athletic or persuasive, but that's not what the skills mean (a wizard with acrobatics is a wizard who read books and trains his body as well, after all, not a wizard who reads books and is suddenly good at balancing).

Feels weird to me that because a character knows a couple subjects they suddenly can't do anything else because some things are so piecemeal. Especially relevant for low skill point classes like fighter or paladin. Though part of that is int based skillpoints being weird in certain cases ( a slightly below average intelligence fighter's knowledge of dungeoncrawling makes him a poor swimmer? wut)

I mean I can see the issue, but that's more a problem of the skill point system not always making sense than it is an argument against consolidation, IMO.

I'd probably go even farther and take a note from 4e (Spellcraft and Know(Arcane) into one, Survival and Nature into one, Planes and Religion into one, climb and swim into one).

It could address them actually. Depending on the packages, it could be a lot harder to get Schrodinger's Eidolon, that can be the skillmonkey or the thousand-cuts-beatstick or the party taxi or the sumo wrestler with just a few EP difference between them. For example, the one they previewed (Protean) will probably be really good at fighting in melee but less adept at using skills or fighting from range.

The problem is less with an eidolon that can potentially do anything, and more with an eidolon that can do everything, in the same campaign, with minimal resource investment required to switch. One of the more minor issues with the class, but it's still there.

I agree. I just think there's better ways to do it than compartmentalize. This change might solve problems, but a lot of the improvements seem like they'd be incidental rather than an effect of the core change (after all, you can have a schroedinger's eidolon with the system if one category gets enough options or not have them without the system if you force eidolons to specialize more).

My players found it difficult to see the eidolon as anything other than a bundle of stats, and found it difficult to make them an oni or genie, so this would be increasing the customization in my group's case.

Eh. I guess I can see that, but that's a player issue. You might not be able to make a genie at all if they don't give you a genie type now, after all and you certainly won't be able to make a three headed flying elephant eidolon. Or an armored mass of living disembodied shadow arms with a giant sword. Or a million other nonstandard ideas.

[Milo v3]

Eh. I guess I can see that, but that's a player issue. You might not be able to make a genie at all if they don't give you a genie type now, after all and you certainly won't be able to make a three headed flying elephant eidolon. Or an armored mass of living disembodied shadow arms with a giant sword. Or a million other nonstandard ideas.

Why wouldn't you be able to make those?