In a world without LA

[thecrimsondawn]

I think we are looking at this the wrong way

Maybe we should be trying to make the weakest character ever made :P
God knows the game will only last one day :D

[sideswipe]

Why?
Is Tome of Battle too broken for your DM?
Are the options in it too powerful?
Perhaps they think being able to use special powers all day, is too much?
Are they afraid that, with access to Tome of Battle, every encounter would be too easy?
Do they not own Tome of Battle? For the love of all that is sane, let this be the answer.


Evolved Half-Everything Great Wyrm Time Dracolich Swarmshifter Sorcerer.

The real power here comes from the Class Levels in Sorcerer, but the rather suboptimal choice of having every Template ever on a creature that can be anywhere in time and space, while being nearly impossible to kill is good for roleplaying and keeps the power level low. Allowing the DM to stay on top of things without ever having to resort to DM fiat. There is so much bull**** there, I wanted to use Blue text... BLUE! Eww.

it could be new DM syndrome of "i have never read tome of battle therefore please do not use it." i would happily accept that as a reason.

[OldTrees1]

Where on earth do you find players who enjoy fruitlessly spending an hour+, or more likely, research spread across several days, doing the necessary book-diving and number crunching to make a 20th level character before the first session only to find out they need to spend even more time at the first session making a 10th level character that's completely different in concept and execution from the 20th level one they just made?

It ought to but it doesn't.

Well some forewarning goes a long way. It is easier if the instructions are: "Make 2 separate characters. One is 20th level(double WBL) and the other 10th level(normal WBL). Email me the 20th level character before the first session. Come ready to play the 10th level character."

As for what kind of players might enjoy it, if there is a player that likes building characters, likes to have a hand in shaping the world, and trusts someone else with representing their characters then they might be fine given some forewarning. As for those traits the first is common but not a majority, the second is a majority and the third is uncommon. Honestly this is similar to running an evil campaign and then using that campaign as the setting for a heroic campaign (Evil PCs->Important NPCs).

Yeah, regrettably it doesn't go without saying. However it ought to, and someday might go without saying. Until then...

[Eloel]

Well some forewarning goes a long way. It is easier if the instructions are: "Make 2 separate characters. One is 20th level(double WBL) and the other 10th level(normal WBL). Email me the 20th level character before the first session. Come ready to play the 10th level character."

That would be a dead giveaway though. I'd go with "make the same character at level 10, and your end build at level 20". Then I would use timetravel shenanigans to in the end make the players turn into BBEGs.

[Threadnaught]

it could be new DM syndrome of "i have never read tome of battle therefore please do not use it." i would happily accept that as a reason.

I hoped it would be assumed that ownership would be equated to having read it.

[Troacctid]

it could be new DM syndrome of "i have never read tome of battle therefore please do not use it." i would happily accept that as a reason.

I am honestly shocked that wasn't everyone's first conclusion.

Actually, I take that back, I'm not at all shocked. This is GITP.

[atemu1234]

I am honestly shocked that wasn't everyone's first conclusion.

Actually, I take that back, I'm not at all shocked. This is GITP.

Remember Hanlon's Razor, remember Hanlon's Razor...

[Abithrios]

I am honestly shocked that wasn't everyone's first conclusion.

Actually, I take that back, I'm not at all shocked. This is GITP.

We forget that there was a time before we had ToB in our lives...

[Coidzor]

I am honestly shocked that wasn't everyone's first conclusion.

Actually, I take that back, I'm not at all shocked. This is GITP.

How likely or plausible is it for a new DM to have every source or access to every source but Tome of Battle?

[sideswipe]

How likely or plausible is it for a new DM to have every source or access to every source but Tome of Battle?

hypothetically
how likely is it for a new DM who does not frequent here to have 20 books (which do not include ToB) and think he has every book except ToB so he says "anything goes".

i have been frequenting here for a long time and i still have no clue what some of the book abbreviations are, and still haven't read or even opened 30% of all the 3.0 and 3.5 books. and i have never touched pathfinder.

[Chronos]

Quoth ShurikVch:

Note: petitioners will lose their (sp) and (su) abilities.
(Spellcasting, manifesting, meldshaping, and most of maneuvers will stay)

Technically, manifesting is a (Sp) ability.

[AMX]

Just thinking out loud....

Be a demilich. A foot demilich.

Anything from the ELH is a good choice, actually, but steamrolling everything as a flying foot seems extra-ridiculous.

How about all of you play a different kind of demilich, then fly in formation pretending to be a single person?

[ShurikVch]

Technically, manifesting is a (Sp) ability.

Since when?
AFAIK, usually manifesting go unspecified, thus can't be (sp) or (su)

[thecrimsondawn]

Maybe he just has a phobia of Iron Heart Surge, and even the mention of the maneuver causes him to make a dc40 fear save check. :P

[Aliek]

Maybe the ToB ban was a gambit to see if anyone would raise an argument about it later on. Then he'll know who posted on D&D character optimization forums asking for help on breaking his game.

But seriously, you should check on the other players. If this campaign is to last at least a couple sessions, you wouldn't want to overshadow nor be overshadowed hard.

[Dramorake]

Maybe he just has a phobia of Iron Heart Surge, and even the mention of the maneuver causes him to make a dc40 fear save check. :P

Basically it was this, He has ToB didn't really say why it was banned but it is.

[Dramorake]

Maybe the ToB ban was a gambit to see if anyone would raise an argument about it later on. Then he'll know who posted on D&D character optimization forums asking for help on breaking his game.

But seriously, you should check on the other players. If this campaign is to last at least a couple sessions, you wouldn't want to overshadow nor be overshadowed hard.

Other player in it is also making a dragon, said something about making it a literal god? Another is debating on a race. And Idk about the rest.

[Dramorake]

so means everyone start with 1 RHD or one classe level for those with 1 RHD right ?

=> means if we play a dragon, it is still in his egg ^^

Just asked, how he explained it, I will have the normal RHD from whatever I take it will apply normally except into my ECL I guess.

[Dramorake]

Also the player who claims to make himself "god" said he is taking Concordant Dragon and Dragon ascendant.

[Dramorake]

Also I forgot to mention that at times we will be placed to,fight against each other randomly during the campaign. Not a fight to the death per say but, accidents happen and I wouldn't be surprised off they killed each other if they had the chance

[sideswipe]

Just asked, how he explained it, I will have the normal RHD from whatever I take it will apply normally except into my ECL I guess.

awesome so 50 RHD and 50 LA = ECL 1

so great worm time dragon with all the templates. and epic level spellcasting.

[Dramorake]

awesome so 50 RHD and 50 LA = ECL 1

so great worm time dragon with all the templates. and epic level spellcasting.

Is this going to be the best? Even with maybe fighting another Dragon in the party?

[Vhaidara]

Is this going to be the best? Even with maybe fighting another Dragon in the party?

Epic Spellcasting beats everything, because Epic Spellcasting essentially gives you a toolbox and says "Build whatever spell you want. Even if it does that."

Let me explain something to you: Nothing is relevant in your game. The level of BS that will be thrown around means that if the universe is not your bitch, you don't matter. And since the only people who matter are people who make the universe their bitch, all you need to do is shut them down.

Pretty sure you can make an Epic spell that makes it so that magic only works for you. The Spellcraft DC will be enormous, but then you add backlash damage (damage you take when you finish casting) until it is a 100% success. Then pick your method of immunity to death by damage, and cast the spell.

[unseenmage]

Is this going to be the best? Even with maybe fighting another Dragon in the party?

If the third party Monstrous Lycanthrope is allowed then probably not as the template lets you be an Everything-were-Everything.

Also Divine Salient Abilities that gods have are trumped by little else in the game.

If this DM is truly ignoring ECL and just having you start with 1RHD and whatever abilities a given statblock provides, there are stats for epic level NPCs that could be nice. I'm not sure how many of them have class levels that are actually worth more than an epic HD dragon though.

[gooddragon1]

I think we are looking at this the wrong way

Maybe we should be trying to make the weakest character ever made :P
God knows the game will only last one day :D

My elf gladiator can help here:

Race: Elf
Class: Commoner
Flaws: Frail
Traits: Quick
Ability Scores: Unimportant except for con... using point buy select it as an 8.
Feats: Skill Focus (Craft: Basket Weaving), Skill Focus (Knowledge: Baskets)
HP at first level: 4 (maximum on a d4) - 2 (constitution penalty) - 1 (frail, can go to 0) - 1 (quick, can go to 0) = 0
HP at each level thereafter: 1d4-4 (min result possible = 0)
Notes: And you thought toughness was underpowered. This elf could not do a hard day's work to save his life.

[Eloel]

My elf gladiator can help here:

Race: Elf
Class: Commoner
Flaws: Frail
Traits: Quick
Ability Scores: Unimportant except for con... using point buy select it as an 8.
Feats: Skill Focus (Craft: Basket Weaving), Skill Focus (Knowledge: Baskets)
HP at first level: 4 (maximum on a d4) - 2 (constitution penalty) - 1 (frail, can go to 0) - 1 (quick, can go to 0) = 0
HP at each level thereafter: 1d4-4 (min result possible = 0)
Notes: And you thought toughness was underpowered. This elf could not do a hard day's work to save his life.

You're jumping through way too many hoops. Just be Venerable.

[Sir Chuckles]

You're jumping through way too many hoops. Just be Venerable.

But that results in a potentially usable mental score. Also, it's because of the trait and flaw that it can be reduced to 0.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You're jumping through way too many hoops. Just be Venerable.

Why not both? That way you'll have a -5 hit point penalty from the 2 Constitution, -1 from Frail, and -1 from Quick. This is important, because it lets you take Toughness as a feat and still be at 0 hit points.

Why is that important? Because it's a feat that now does nothing. Which means we can drop Skill Focus: Basketweaving, so we can be even more useless. Otherwise we might be too effective if a basket-related situation comes up.

To deal with our mental scores...just max out Strength or Dexterity and leave everything else at 8. We'll have scores of 11 for our mental stats, but our Strength and Dex bonuses will be eaten by the Venerable penalties, and be relatively useless anyway due to our 0 hit points.

[Eloel]

But that results in a potentially usable mental score. Also, it's because of the trait and flaw that it can be reduced to 0.

Find a race with -Str, maybe Halfling. Start with 8 str, eat that -2, and be venerable. Congratulations, you're paralyzed for life.

[sideswipe]

Epic Spellcasting beats everything, because Epic Spellcasting essentially gives you a toolbox and says "Build whatever spell you want. Even if it does that."

i like the i win spell. only somatic components and a focus which is a finely crafted box with a big red button on it, inscribed with the words "i win"