Is this Legal?

[SinsI]

The second issue is that animal growth and the size boost from wild shape don't likely stack. As animal growth states, "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack," and if you're using wild shape to become bigger, then wild shape is one of those. There's an argument that wild shape is actually an effect that changes form rather than one that changes size, but I generally hold to the other interpretation, because there's no reality in which wild shape isn't increasing your size.

You are wrong here. Only effects that explicitly increase your size do not stack. If increase in size is a side effect of some other effect(in this case, of becoming an animal), it is not a "magical effect that increase size".

Wild shape also explicitly says that you become an animal - and animals are valid target for Animal Growth.

[emeraldstreak]

Wild Shape and Animal Growth stack.


Subtypes have no bearing on Animal Growth's legality, it's the type that matters.

[lord_khaine]

He could still not have turned into an elephant though..

And in the SRD it does call how how he dont get the animal type but retains his own.

[Bronk]

You are wrong here. Only effects that explicitly increase your size do not stack. If increase in size is a side effect of some other effect(in this case, of becoming an animal), it is not a "magical effect that increase size".

Wild shape also explicitly says that you become an animal - and animals are valid target for Animal Growth.

There is no mention of 'explicitly' in the rules for any of these size changing spells. They only say "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." If you use wild shape, which is a magical effect, to increase your size, no other magic will stack with that.

Also, wild shape only says you become animal in a way that functions as the alternate form special ability. Since alternate form doesn't change either your type or your subtype, and you retain your 'natural form', you only appear to be an animal. Because 'animal growth' can only be cast on animals, a wild shaped druid is still an invalid target for the spell.

[ApologyFestival]

There is no mention of 'explicitly' in the rules for any of these size changing spells. They only say "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." If you use wild shape, which is a magical effect, to increase your size, no other magic will stack with that.

What is a magical effect? The term "magical effect" isn't explicitly defined, thanks to d20 RPGs being notoriously badly edited. Wild shape is a supernatural ability. As a point in favour of it being a magical effect, it is suppressed by an antimagic field. However, I wouldn't consider a supernatural ability to be a magical effect.

The "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" clause, to me, seems intended to prevent the stacking of spells like enlarge person, greater enlarge person, and divine might.

[eggynack]

You are wrong here. Only effects that explicitly increase your size do not stack. If increase in size is a side effect of some other effect(in this case, of becoming an animal), it is not a "magical effect that increase size".

As was noted, you're adding in the word explicitly here. Wild shape is a magical effect, given that it's a supernatural ability, and it increases size, because you're using it to increase size. Simple as that.

Wild shape also explicitly says that you become an animal - and animals are valid target for Animal Growth.

That was true, once, when wild shape was based off of the polymorph rules. Since the errata, however, wild shape has been based off of alter form, and is type preserving as a result.

[SinsI]

There is no mention of 'explicitly' in the rules for any of these size changing spells. They only say "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." If you use wild shape, which is a magical effect, to increase your size, no other magic will stack with that.

Also, wild shape only says you become animal in a way that functions as the alternate form special ability. Since alternate form doesn't change either your type or your subtype, and you retain your 'natural form', you only appear to be an animal. Because 'animal growth' can only be cast on animals, a wild shaped druid is still an invalid target for the spell.

"Explicitly" is the default rule of the game - it must either have a name like "magical size increasing effect" - or have a description that says "increases size".
Otherwise, everything can cause everything: Fireball that was changed through Energy Substitution to deal cold damage causes you to drop your vial of alchemist's fire that explodes and deals fire damage? It is affected by Energy Substitution too, so your alchemist's fire deals cold damage to you...

What if you "increased your size" by merging with your horse to become a centaur?
What if you switched souls with somebody bigger than you?
What if "magical effect" made you "increase size" by compelling you to overeat? Would it still not stack?

And your misreading of "wild shape" rule is incredibly "creative". Wild shape directly says "You become an animal". Forms, creature types or subtypes - all of those are completely irrelevant. When you are wild shaped you are an animal.
Animal growth has target: animal. Thus, it works on someone wild shaped.
It can't be written any more clear than that.

[eggynack]

"Explicitly" is the default rule of the game - it must either have a name like "magical size increasing effect" - or have a description that says "increases size".

Magical size increasing effect isn't a game term. Even enlarge person is only implicitly a magical effect that increases size. As this isn't a game defined term, we default to base definitions, and wild shape is magic, an effect, and size increasing.

Otherwise, everything can cause everything: Fireball that was changed through Energy Substitution to deal cold damage causes you to drop your vial of alchemist's fire that explodes and deals fire damage? It is affected by Energy Substitution too, so your alchemist's fire deals cold damage to you...

No. Spell is a game defined term, and metamagic works in very specifically defined ways.

What if you "increased your size" by merging with your horse to become a centaur?

If you are doing that based on a lingering magical effect, then it doesn't work. If you actually just merged, through magic or otherwise, and now you're just a centaur, things should be fine.

What if you switched souls with somebody bigger than you?

Same as before, with the caveat that there is additional juice working in favor of this working on the basis of the definition of what you are. It's a weird one though, I'll admit, but it's not as if the rules aren't sometimes weird.

What if "magical effect" made you "increase size" by compelling you to overeat? Would it still not stack?

That's fine. The magical effect isn't itself increasing your size, and the size increase is instantaneous and unrelated to magic.

And your misreading of "wild shape" rule is incredibly "creative". Wild shape directly says "You become an animal". Forms, creature types or subtypes - all of those are completely irrelevant. When you are wild shaped you are an animal.
Animal growth has target: animal. Thus, it works on someone wild shaped.
It can't be written any more clear than that.

Seriously? Did you just ignore the place where I told you to read the errata? Read the errata. It doesn't work like this anymore. Your rules understanding was once correct, but it is now out of date.

[SinsI]

Errata and other specific details don't matter. The spell still says "you become an animal", not "you take on animal shape" or anything like that, thus you are an animal for anything and everything that targets animals - Animal Growth, Speak With Animals, Handle Animal skill, etc.
Errata affects only how other spells and effects (i.e. that target humanoids) affect Wild Shaped druid or things like Awaken that require additional qualifiers.

Magical size increasing effect isn't a game term. Even enlarge person is only implicitly a magical effect that increases size. As this isn't a game defined term, we default to base definitions, and wild shape is magic, an effect, and size increasing.

No. It is a game term, though loosely defined. For example, Righteous Might wouldn't stack with Enlarge Person:
"This spell causes you to grow, doubling your height and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one, and you gain a +4 size bonus to Strength and a +2 size bonus to Constitution."

A magical effect would have to have that kind of explicit text to count as "increasing size".

Note that it also explicitly has the "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" note. Any spell or effect with such a note is a "magical affect that increases size".

[eggynack]

Errata and other specific details don't matter. The spell still says "you become an animal", not "you take on animal shape" or anything like that, thus you are an animal for anything and everything that targets animals - Animal Growth, Speak With Animals, Handle Animal skill, etc.
Errata affects only how other spells and effects (i.e. that target humanoids) affect Wild Shaped druid.

What are you talking about right now? The errata in this case fundamentally altered wild shape such that it doesn't alter your type. Animal growth is based on type, because that's the only thing that type based targeting could be based on.

No. It is a game term, though loosely defined. For example, Righteous Might wouldn't stack with Enlarge Person:
"This spell causes you to grow, doubling your height and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one, and you gain a +4 size bonus to Strength and a +2 size bonus to Constitution."

A magical effect would have to have that kind of explicit text to count as "increasing size".

I can't really see what rules text, if any, is giving you the impression that what you're saying is the case. Wild shape increases your size, when you use it to do that. The game doesn't need to explicitly say, "If you're a medium creature that's using large wild shape, then you're increasing size," because that's just implied by the fact that it's a thing that's occurring.

[Telonius]

Away from my books at the moment, but would it be possible to get the bigger size with a Goliath and one level of Barbarian? I can't remember if Mountain Rage gives you +1 size, or just Large size...

[torrasque666]

Errata and other specific details don't matter. The spell still says "you become an animal", not "you take on animal shape" or anything like that, thus you are an animal for anything and everything that targets animals - Animal Growth, Speak With Animals, Handle Animal skill, etc.
Errata affects only how other spells and effects (i.e. that target humanoids) affect Wild Shaped druid or things like Awaken that require additional qualifiers.

Lets eh... lets take a look at wildshape, using the SRD, since its 99.99999% of the time up to date on eratta(which are rule changes by the way) and is OGL meaning direct copypasta is legal.

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.

Ok, so it keys off of Alternate Form. Lets look at that.

Alternate FormA creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:


The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Thus, a Wild-Shaped Human Druid is still a Humanoid(Human) creature, not an Animal creature. Thus, things that target animals such as animal growth, do not identify it as a valid target. So Calm Person is still valid, but not Calm Animal.

[Twurps]

It gains the size of it's new form

That pretty much settles the 'size increasing effect' discussion as wel.

Away from my books at the moment, but would it be possible to get the bigger size with a Goliath and one level of Barbarian? I can't remember if Mountain Rage gives you +1 size, or just Large size...

It makes you large. So the elephant would shrink in size (if that stacks, I'm NOT starting that discussion...)

[emeraldstreak]

Read the errata. It doesn't work like this anymore. Your rules understanding was once correct, but it is now out of date.

No sane DM uses this part of the errata.

[eggynack]

No sane DM uses this part of the errata.

Why, exactly, is that the case? My understanding of the "new" rule is that it doesn't have a significant positive impact on druid power, and it might actually be detrimental. The whole point of the thing, after all, is to distance the druid from the screwed up polymorph rules. Point is, I'm either insane or non-existent, because I would absolutely use that part of the errata.

[Telonius]

I don't use that part of the errata ... but only because Druids in my game are all the PHB2 variant. If I allowed regular Druids, I'd use the errata.

[SinsI]

Lets eh... lets take a look at wildshape, using the SRD, since its 99.99999% of the time up to date on eratta(which are rule changes by the way) and is OGL meaning direct copypasta is legal.

OK. Let's take a look at SRD:

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day.
This ability functions like the alternate form special ability polymorph spell, except as noted here.

"As noted here" includes the text that is written directly before it. Thus, you become "a small or medium animal", explicitly overriding whatever limitations polymorph has.

[eggynack]

OK. Let's take a look at SRD:

"As noted here" includes the text that is written directly before it. Thus, you become "a small or medium animal", explicitly overriding whatever limitations polymorph has.

What you've bolded doesn't indicate type. It just says you can become an animal, and doesn't give the specific constraints of that ability. A druid can turn himself into an animal. They just don't end up with the type, and that's how you determine targeting.