Instant effects during Full Rounds or Attacks

[Yanisa]

I am going to nitty gritty of timing in combat, but our DM recently discovered Plague Zombies which have a nasty ability to explode on death. Me being a melee character, well I don't like it, was looking for a way to deal with. And my first though went to, can I do a full round attack, kill the zombie with my first attack and use a second attack to bull rush the zombie before it explodes?

My second idea was getting an effect that allows me to do a CMB as part of my attack. So I do one attack, which deals damage and a bull rush attempt. If that attack kills the zombie, can I bull rush before it explodes?

And if there are no rules for that specific time framing, do you guys know another way of dealing with these buggers? Or should I just give up and let the archer deal with it?

[Hamste]

Use a reach weapon? They are staggered so you can seriously mess them up with it and the explosion is only against adjacent squares.

[Psyren]

And even if you get exposed, the plague is pretty weak. For starters, a DC 11 fort save is cake for most melee even at 1st level. Onset can take days, so even if you fail, that is plenty of time for the party cleric or an NPC to start treating you, or for you to find a cure. Unlike most diseases, you'll know where this one came from so it can't sneak up on you - just check yourself into a healer's care as soon as the day is over if you ever took damage from a popping zombie, whether you feel fine or not.

[Yanisa]

Use a reach weapon? They are staggered so you can seriously mess them up with it and the explosion is only against adjacent squares.

Although reach weapons aren't an option at the moment, I do have enlarge person. A great solution (I wish I realized that) although I wish I had something more permanent.

And even if you get exposed, the plague is pretty weak. For starters, a DC 11 fort save is cake for most melee even at 1st level. Onset can take days, so even if you fail, that is plenty of time for the party cleric or an NPC to start treating you, or for you to find a cure. Unlike most diseases, you'll know where this one came from so it can't sneak up on you - just check yourself into a healer's care as soon as the day is over if you ever took damage from a popping zombie, whether you feel fine or not.

My worry is more the damage then the disease. We don't have a lot of healing and the unavoidable hit is draining on resources if I let it get out of hand. (Also our archer is stingy with arrows, so any option that doesn't use arrows makes him happy.)

[Psyren]

My worry is more the damage then the disease. We don't have a lot of healing and the unavoidable hit is draining on resources if I let it get out of hand. (Also our archer is stingy with arrows, so any option that doesn't use arrows makes him happy.)

Death Burst doesn't deal any damage. You're "exposed to it's plague as if struck by a slam attack" - which means, you have to save vs. disease as though it slammed you, but it didn't actually slam you. I think you're interpreting it as though the burst itself is like being hit with a slam.

[Yanisa]

Death Burst doesn't deal any damage. You're "exposed to it's plague as if struck by a slam attack" - which means, you have to save vs. disease as though it slammed you, but it didn't actually slam you. I think you're interpreting it as though the burst itself is like being hit with a slam.

Derp, you're right. Dastardly DM convinced me and I only glanced at it... Well that removes all my troubles, thanks.

[Hamste]

What is your to hit? If it really worries you, you could tied your sword to a stick and take the improvised weapon penalty for reach. Learning carpentry might even allow you to avoid the penalty with a good enough hilt. If you fight one with actual armor it would cause problems but most of them have a really bad ac.

[Sacrieur]

If I were DM'ing I'd rule, "No of course not, because it explodes when it dies." Even though it doesn't explicitly say it's a free action, I'd treat it like one.

[Lord of Shadows]

Death Burst doesn't deal any damage. You're "exposed to it's plague as if struck by a slam attack" - which means, you have to save vs. disease as though it slammed you, but it didn't actually slam you. I think you're interpreting it as though the burst itself is like being hit with a slam.

Derp, you're right. Dastardly DM convinced me and I only glanced at it... Well that removes all my troubles, thanks.

Not to be contrary here, but based on some of the history of our group, we have a DM who could very easily interpret the wording "as if struck by a slam attack" to mean just that, you get the full effects "as if" the creature had actually landed a slam attack, 1d6+4 plus disease. You didn't say whether you have actually fought any of these buggers yet, but if your DM has already said you will take damage, it's possible that your DM sees it that way. You could ask for a clarification, but that might make your DM wonder why you are asking if they hadn't thought of that.
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BTW, this same local DM does other snarky things like having enemies not drop until their next initiative turn after receiving lethal damage. After all, to fall prone requires an action... so any of us who go between the lethal damage and it's next turn frequently end up wasting resources, and the DM smiles.
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[Gemini476]

If I were DM'ing I'd rule, "No of course not, because it explodes when it dies." Even though it doesn't explicitly say it's a free action, I'd treat it like one.

That's a bad idea, since free actions can only be used on your own turn. (Speaking is the sole exception. Yes, this is confusing.)

Just call it Not An Action - when it dies it explodes, simple as that.

[Sacrieur]

BTW, this same local DM does other snarky things like having enemies not drop until their next initiative turn after receiving lethal damage. After all, to fall prone requires an action... so any of us who go between the lethal damage and it's next turn frequently end up wasting resources, and the DM smiles.
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A free action, which can be done on anyone's turn.

[Lord of Shadows]

A free action, which can be done on anyone's turn.

In Pathfinder, only Immediate actions can be done anytime. Free actions "consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM." (Source D20PFSRD)

It may be splitting hairs, but this does beg the question of whether you can do a Free Action as part of an Immediate Action. Anyhoo...

Another thought on the popping zombies.. the burst is the result of receiving lethal damage, and so should be "resolved" (to borrow an MTG term) when the damage takes place. The "action" is the attack on the critter, no other action should be required (it certainly is not an attack), but other DM's may see it differently.
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[Sacrieur]

That's a bad idea, since free actions can only be used on your own turn. (Speaking is the sole exception. Yes, this is confusing.)

Just call it Not An Action - when it dies it explodes, simple as that.

Heh I've been doing it wrong all this time and my players didn't tell me >_>

[Psyren]

Not to be contrary here, but based on some of the history of our group, we have a DM who could very easily interpret the wording "as if struck by a slam attack" to mean just that, you get the full effects "as if" the creature had actually landed a slam attack, 1d6+4 plus disease.

The reason it includes the "slam attack" portion, is because that is the only delivery method of the disease:

Zombie rot: slam; save Fort DC 11; onset 1d4 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d2 Con.

Therefore the burst has to say you were "exposed as though slammed," otherwise the disease would never actually trigger. It does not mean you take slam damage, because the only part of the slam being referenced is the exposure to the disease.

[Gemini476]

Heh I've been doing it wrong all this time and my players didn't tell me >_>

Nah, it's alright. The whole "free actions can only be done during your turn" thing can get a bit dumb at times, anyway, although at least "free actions can be done during any action" is a bit better.

Really, though, feel free to houserule in your own games to your heart's content. RAW is only really useful if you're A)in PFS, B)in a new game with unknown players and/or GM, and C)on online forums so that you have a common ground.


(Really, though, the dumbest thing about speaking being a free action is that once you add in free action limits to curb gunslingers or Ninja/Monks or whatever they suddenly become mute after throwing half a dozen shuriken.

The dumbest thing about free actions in general is that Not An Action is a thing and it's distinct from free actions. Why.)

[Yanisa]

Nah, it's alright. The whole "free actions can only be done during your turn" thing can get a bit dumb at times, anyway, although at least "free actions can be done during any action" is a bit better.

Really, though, feel free to houserule in your own games to your heart's content. RAW is only really useful if you're A)in PFS, B)in a new game with unknown players and/or GM, and C)on online forums so that you have a common ground.


(Really, though, the dumbest thing about speaking being a free action is that once you add in free action limits to curb gunslingers or Ninja/Monks or whatever they suddenly become mute after throwing half a dozen shuriken.

The dumbest thing about free actions in general is that Not An Action is a thing and it's distinct from free actions. Why.)

I remember a DM that rules that even talking happened on our own turn (or was that some old rule?). Man that was stupid.

My real problem is that Pathfinder (and most d20 systems) lack rules when actions interrupt other actions. And especially to what level of degree actions can be split.

Two examples:

A Plague Zombie attacks me. I have an spell that causes fire damage to attackers. The zombie hits and deals damage, 1d6+4+diseases. It dies of the fire damage of the aura. Does the zombie still deliver the disease or not?

Most people would say yes because the slam attack that delivers the disease hit me and caused a wound to infect.

I attack a Plague Zombie. I have a feat that allows me to Bull Rush after dealing damage damage. I hit the zombie and deal 1d6+4+Bull Rush. It dies of the damage. Do I still bull rush the zombie?

Suddenly the answer is no (or "after the zombie explodes"), even though from a rule perspective both cases are the same.

[Sacrieur]

Nah, it's alright. The whole "free actions can only be done during your turn" thing can get a bit dumb at times, anyway, although at least "free actions can be done during any action" is a bit better.

Really, though, feel free to houserule in your own games to your heart's content. RAW is only really useful if you're A)in PFS, B)in a new game with unknown players and/or GM, and C)on online forums so that you have a common ground.

I could write a new rulebook for all my house rules. But I prefer to stick to RAW whenever possible.