Polytheism in RPGs?

[Boci]

How I wish I could base my setting on the Book of the Fallen, but the entire series is pretty much DM fiat.

It's so awesome though.

Could try an ascendancy game, but that would be...difficult. I was interested in trying to homebrew the warren system, but I couldn't actually tell them apart that well. I get that Kural Gerain is elder magic and really powerful...but why? One of the characters calls it cold and dark, but I never really got how so. The only unique thing I got from it was the necromancer/necrotic damage they inflict.

[Anonymouswizard]

This is dangerously close to breaking forum rules, but what are people's views on using possible polytheistic versions of monotheistic religions in a 'real world' setting? Because I'm creating an Urban Fantasy setting where path magic draws from mythological gods, and I want to include angels without an all powerful deity. Is changing the 'truth' behind still living religions something to be avoided?

If people want more details I'm fine to provide them, I'm just wary of breaking forum rules.

[goto124]

What does your audience (the players) consist of?

[Anonymouswizard]

What does your audience (the players) consist of?

For at least the first game, a group of middle class Brits including a bunch of agnostics and a couple of practicing Christians. The thing is I hope to release the setting with it's own system at some point, and so want to know what a broader audience thinks.

[Aedilred]

For at least the first game, a group of middle class Brits including a bunch of agnostics and a couple of practicing Christians. The thing is I hope to release the setting with it's own system at some point, and so want to know what a broader audience thinks.

It's the sort of thing where response is going to be largely idiosyncratic. Some players (and GMs) probably would not want to play in such a system, for various reasons (personal religion is not necessarily an indicator either way, although in extreme cases it probably would be); others might well enjoy it. I wouldn't have a problem with it myself particularly if it were well conceived on the whole, although you would have to be sensitive about how you named things in order to avoid giving unnecessary offence.

Such a setting would probably be inappropriate on this forum, though, unless enough of the real-world aspects were filed off that you could plausibly present it as a fictional religion. If in doubt on that, ask the mods, though they generally prefer erring on the side of caution so I can probably predict their response.

[Anonymouswizard]

It's the sort of thing where response is going to be largely idiosyncratic. Some players (and GMs) probably would not want to play in such a system, for various reasons (personal religion is not necessarily an indicator either way, although in extreme cases it probably would be); others might well enjoy it. I wouldn't have a problem with it myself particularly if it were well conceived on the whole, although you would have to be sensitive about how you named things in order to avoid giving unnecessary offence.

Such a setting would probably be inappropriate on this forum, though, unless enough of the real-world aspects were filed off that you could plausibly present it as a fictional religion. If in doubt on that, ask the mods, though they generally prefer erring on the side of caution so I can probably predict their response.

To give as much detail as I'm willing:

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The High Ones: are the three gods without physical form. When they work together they are omnipotent, but use of their power would destroy the world, and so they generally task mortals and angels with duties. These are what I'm worried about, as in-setting they are meant to be the precursors to currently worshiped gods, which are a distorted version.

Angels: serve the High Ones, these are the most powerful beings a character might encounter. They come in pure and fallen versions, and are normally terrifying. Only the most powerful gods would think of taking one on in a straight fight. Oh, and even fallen angels are extremely lawful.

Gods: aspects of nature, each is limited to their metaphysical 'region'. Multiple gods can share the same aspect without losing power, and all gods represent their aspect in a different way. They empower spells, but do so unconsciously, and only need to be called upon to do so.

Spirits: the catch-all term for supernatural creatures of non-human origin that do not fall into any of the above. They can have pretty much any set of powers and restrictions.

I suppose what I'm asking is if this model is divorced enough from real world religions to be considered acceptable by most people, although I fully assume an 'I don't know' answer. This is then all filled out with fluff, but that would almost certainly break forum rules, and so I'm only going to go into it off-site.

[Thrudd]

Original D&D, Basic, and 1e AD&D actually have mechanics perfectly supportive of a monotheistic religion. There were no cleric spheres or domains, just a single list of spells. All clerics turn undead (exorcist), cure and protect and occasionally call down holy fire or plagues. Provision was made for evil clerics, by reversing a few spells, and control undead instead of turning.

Under these rules, there's functionally only two "teams", holy god or unholy god/demon. So, even though there might have been a pantheon, they were functionally all the same religion and gave the same spells.

While the settings that developed may have used pantheons of gods, mechanics didn't start reflecting that until 2e.

[Sith_Happens]

This is dangerously close to breaking forum rules, but what are people's views on using possible polytheistic versions of monotheistic religions in a 'real world' setting? Because I'm creating an Urban Fantasy setting where path magic draws from mythological gods, and I want to include angels without an all powerful deity. Is changing the 'truth' behind still living religions something to be avoided?

If people want more details I'm fine to provide them, I'm just wary of breaking forum rules.

Purely from a fictional-worldbuilding perspective, I think it would work best if you keep it vague what the "truth" in fact is and provide each religion with their own self-consistent and more-or-less-as-equally-valid-sounding-at-face-value-to-anyone-else's explanation for why the fantasy elements of the setting work the way they do.

My (hopefully just barely forum-safe) reasoning behind that is that the key feature that lets the real world maintain so many different religions is that we ultimately have only our own faith to go on for which one(s) if any we think is/are correct. A good urban fantasy setting should (IMO) keep that feature unless the truth of a particular religion is itself a key feature of the story you want to tell.

[Anonymouswizard]

Purely from a fictional-worldbuilding perspective, I think it would work best if you keep it vague what the "truth" in fact is and provide each religion with their own self-consistent and more-or-less-as-equally-valid-sounding-at-face-value-to-anyone-else's explanation for why the fantasy elements of the setting work the way they do.

My (hopefully just barely forum-safe) reasoning behind that is that the key feature that lets the real world maintain so many different religions is that we ultimately have only our own faith to go on for which one(s) if any we think is/are correct. A good urban fantasy setting should (IMO) keep that feature unless the truth of a particular religion is itself a key feature of the story you want to tell.

With regards to 'truth' in the world, every religion's version of the creation story (if they have one) is metaphysically true, but the physical truth of the universe is the big bang and so on. The character's just don't all know all of that. The main problem I have is that I want to go with a much older version of a couple of religions as the 'truth' behind those religions, so with regards to those religions the 'truth' is slightly different to reality (imagine a fantasy religion that worships the sun as the only god. It has a story where the sun grants a hero powers to beat back the star demons[(which even if not physically true, is metaphysically true]. Now imagine that originally this religion had two gods, the sun and the moon. Suddenly the truth of this myth changes, where either only half the gods gave him power, or he got power from two separate gods. This is essentially what I want to do to a real world religion using a possible pre-monotheistic version of it). However, none of them are 'correct' outside of themselves, and I'm not providing the answer to what is correct. In short, the 'truth' behind them is questionable, with none of them being literally, physically true, but in the same way that no modern religion can prove it's creation story is physically true.

EDIT: thanks for helping me work out exactly what I meant by the way, I was struggling with that.

[veti]

I've played and run monotheistic settings, and even atheistic ones. The way I run it, it doesn't make that much difference. Clerics can be any alignment they like; optionally they can associate with one of many factions within the church, which each have their own unique teachings and philosophical bent.

The key to a monotheistic setting, IMO, is that the deity has to be very hands-off. Actually communing directly with them, and getting clear information back, should be extremely rare - certainly not something that anyone can do on demand. When it does happen, it'll usually lead to someone establishing a new order in the church, which 100 years later will be just another faction jockeying for position.

To give as much detail as I'm willing:

Well, I don't think any of my religious friends would have a problem with that. Some people would, I'm sure, but those people probably aren't playing RPGs in the first place.

I'm a little confused by the placement of "gods" as well down your hierarchy, generally they're at or near the top. How about renaming them as something less - absolute? Like "Powers", or "Dragons"?

[Anonymouswizard]

Well, I don't think any of my religious friends would have a problem with that. Some people would, I'm sure, but those people probably aren't playing RPGs in the first place.

I'm a little confused by the placement of "gods" as well down your hierarchy, generally they're at or near the top. How about renaming them as something less - absolute? Like "Powers", or "Dragons"?

Thanks for the reply

I may use 'powers', as god is there as a placeholder term at the moment (and hints at where exactly these beings are from). 'Dragon' has already been taken as the name for the ascended form of human magicians, so it's out. I'll think about what to call them, but the suggestion of 'powers' will probably stick for the moment.

[Aedilred]

Thanks for the reply

I may use 'powers', as god is there as a placeholder term at the moment (and hints at where exactly these beings are from). 'Dragon' has already been taken as the name for the ascended form of human magicians, so it's out. I'll think about what to call them, but the suggestion of 'powers' will probably stick for the moment.

If you run short of ideas, the choirs of angels (of which "powers" are one) could work to fill in some of the names.

[LibraryOgre]

Original D&D, Basic, and 1e AD&D actually have mechanics perfectly supportive of a monotheistic religion. There were no cleric spheres or domains, just a single list of spells. All clerics turn undead (exorcist), cure and protect and occasionally call down holy fire or plagues. Provision was made for evil clerics, by reversing a few spells, and control undead instead of turning.

Under these rules, there's functionally only two "teams", holy god or unholy god/demon. So, even though there might have been a pantheon, they were functionally all the same religion and gave the same spells.

And then you have Druids, who really really broke that conception.

[Thrudd]

And then you have Druids, who really really broke that conception.

Yes, the Druid represents a second religion which mysteriously grants spells in an identical manner. But the cleric class still could represent a monotheistic religion. Nobody said that religion had to actually be the one true faith, or that the beliefs of either the clerics or the Druids represent the actual truth.

[Cikomyr]

Actually, what i find interesting is the practice of Polytheism within a setting vs. A setting's society.

Basically, consider a setting like 40K. The setting is very clearly polytheist as there is a plethora of gods active in the universe. However, Imperial Society is very, very harshly monotheist.

Compare a setting more like Ancient Greece, where the relevant society venerates/acknowledge the existence of a multitude of Gods. Sure, there may be temples/shrines/cities with a specific patron God, but usually a Priest of Athena is usually not going to pick a fight with a Priest of Apollo. Hell, the Priest of Athena would probably say the occasional prayers to Apollo, and maybe officiate for his holy days in a crunch. At worst, there might be enmity between two priests of different gods over, say, who receive the patronage of the King. But none would dispute or challenge the other god's existence.

Polytheism change the battlefield to a less philosophical/existential one as Monotheism. In fact, you could see Monotheism vs. Polytheim as more of a "War of the Pantheons" instead of "War of the Gods", its just that one side happens to be a Pantheon of 1.

Polytheism turns religious fights more about control of ressource and influence (Earthly matters), whereas Monotheists is about supremacy of belief, and denial of the other.

Although, i am wondering if adhering to a polytheist pantheon would make Polytheist Priest less adverse to other religions. I mean, oh, these people have a God of Thunder too? So i guess Zeus is called Thor over here! Conflict would probably arise when discussing minutia of the mythology, tho..

Tl:dr: i guess the key issue we should discuss is more of Pantheons, and how exclusive those are. Pantheon should be a set of Gods people have no problem turning from one to another when the need arise (no " jealous" god). And especially, there should be no "bad guy" among a Pantheon. There can be Divine Jerks, but no one who is "The Adversary"...

Hmm.. This is probably why i like D&D Elven Mythology. The Seldarine reflect exactly the way i think a polytheist society should act. With exiled Seldars cast in the role of Bad Guys.

...goddamnit. I cannot remember if Dark Elf.society of monotheist or not. I know they reject Vaerhaum, but do they reject Selvetarm?

[GungHo]

This is dangerously close to breaking forum rules, but what are people's views on using possible polytheistic versions of monotheistic religions in a 'real world' setting? Because I'm creating an Urban Fantasy setting where path magic draws from mythological gods, and I want to include angels without an all powerful deity. Is changing the 'truth' behind still living religions something to be avoided?

If people want more details I'm fine to provide them, I'm just wary of breaking forum rules.

No need to provide details. If there was no audience for "alt versions" of things that are similar to current religion or that blend with mythology, shows like Supernatural, movies like The Prophecy, and the Percy Jackson book series wouldn't exist. All discussions on this lead to "You need to know your audience." If your players are cool with it, go for it. If they aren't, don't. If you aren't sure, ask them. Strangely enough, this goes for a lot of things.

[Maglubiyet]

And then you have Druids, who really really broke that conception.

I suppose druid magic could be a manifestation of holy magic channeled through the natural world. Okay, maybe I'm reaching here...

[Joe the Rat]

I suppose druid magic could be a manifestation of holy magic channeled through the natural world. Okay, maybe I'm reaching here...

No, I think that works. The other way you could look at it is that "nature" generates its own holy magic. Same type, different source.

Here's an analogy. Think of Magic is Electricity. Clerics gain their magic directly from a higher power, outside of the world yet responsible for much of its workings. In other words, the sun. Using solar cells, hydrothermal towers, or (my favorite) orbital arrays that transmit the energy to earth via microwave beam, the cleric's power is channeled directly from the sun.

Now Druid, that's all about power from the world around you. It could be the energy of the sun channeled through the world (wind an hydroelectric are fundamentally weather driven, solar energy creates weather), or from the world itself, independent of "celestial" intervention (Geothermal).

[Anonymouswizard]

No, I think that works. The other way you could look at it is that "nature" generates its own holy magic. Same type, different source.

Here's an analogy. Think of Magic is Electricity. Clerics gain their magic directly from a higher power, outside of the world yet responsible for much of its workings. In other words, the sun. Using solar cells, hydrothermal towers, or (my favorite) orbital arrays that transmit the energy to earth via microwave beam, the cleric's power is channeled directly from the sun.

Now Druid, that's all about power from the world around you. It could be the energy of the sun channeled through the world (wind an hydroelectric are fundamentally weather driven, solar energy creates weather), or from the world itself, independent of "celestial" intervention (Geothermal).

And the wizard has his own fusion generator?

I actually like the idea that all 'magic' is the same sort of energy. So clerics have solar panels, druids use geothermal, wizards have a fusion generator, and sorcerers nick it from the neighbours without paying. But it all generates electricity which you use to power devices (spells), although you might not be particularly good at building certain devices (spell not on your classes list).

[DontEatRawHagis]

I find it weird that all the races are techically under one religion.

In DnD the Deities for a setting typically fall under one Pantheon. So even though you wouldn't see a cleric of Tiamat break bread with one of Bahamut(sp) they are technically following the same religion.

Though then again that didn't stop Sparta from attacking Athens.

[Sith_Happens]

Although, i am wondering if adhering to a polytheist pantheon would make Polytheist Priest less adverse to other religions. I mean, oh, these people have a God of Thunder too? So i guess Zeus is called Thor over here! Conflict would probably arise when discussing minutia of the mythology, tho..

From what I've heard this is often the case in the real-life eastern world. See: Life of Pi.

[Thrudd]

No, I think that works. The other way you could look at it is that "nature" generates its own holy magic. Same type, different source.

Here's an analogy. Think of Magic is Electricity. Clerics gain their magic directly from a higher power, outside of the world yet responsible for much of its workings. In other words, the sun. Using solar cells, hydrothermal towers, or (my favorite) orbital arrays that transmit the energy to earth via microwave beam, the cleric's power is channeled directly from the sun.

Now Druid, that's all about power from the world around you. It could be the energy of the sun channeled through the world (wind an hydroelectric are fundamentally weather driven, solar energy creates weather), or from the world itself, independent of "celestial" intervention (Geothermal).

This is assuming, of course, that clerics and Druids know where their magic really comes from at all. They might speculate about how magical energy works and is channeled to them the same way we are here, but the "truth" of their world might be something neither of them, nor anyone in their society, can even conceive of. Gods and magic simply being the way a superstitious and unscientific population interpret things they can't possibly understand.

[Cikomyr]

And the wizard has his own fusion generator?

I actually like the idea that all 'magic' is the same sort of energy. So clerics have solar panels, druids use geothermal, wizards have a fusion generator, and sorcerers nick it from the neighbours without paying. But it all generates electricity which you use to power devices (spells), although you might not be particularly good at building certain devices (spell not on your classes list).

Warlocks is fossil fuel, digging up things better left buried, and soiling the world in the process.

[veti]

No, I think that works. The other way you could look at it is that "nature" generates its own holy magic. Same type, different source.

Here's an analogy. Think of Magic is Electricity. Clerics gain their magic directly from a higher power, outside of the world yet responsible for much of its workings. In other words, the sun. Using solar cells, hydrothermal towers, or (my favorite) orbital arrays that transmit the energy to earth via microwave beam, the cleric's power is channeled directly from the sun.

That's all very well, but it doesn't explain why the arcane and holy spell lists are so different. If it's all the same power, then why can't a high-level wizard do everything a high-level cleric can do, and vice versa? It seems to imply that gods are basically no different from very-high-level wizards, and that doesn't sit right with me.

I prefer to think of power provided by the gods as qualitatively different from that tapped by arcane mages. (And different again from psionics, but let's leave them out for the moment.) So if arcane magic is like electricity, clerical magic is like gas, psionics like - I dunno, water? You can do a lot of the same things with them, but not all, and they each have their individual strengths and weaknesses.

[Joe the Rat]

That's all very well, but it doesn't explain why the arcane and holy spell lists are so different. If it's all the same power, then why can't a high-level wizard do everything a high-level cleric can do, and vice versa? It seems to imply that gods are basically no different from very-high-level wizards, and that doesn't sit right with me.

I prefer to think of power provided by the gods as qualitatively different from that tapped by arcane mages. (And different again from psionics, but let's leave them out for the moment.) So if arcane magic is like electricity, clerical magic is like gas, psionics like - I dunno, water? You can do a lot of the same things with them, but not all, and they each have their individual strengths and weaknesses.

The analogy wasn't arcane vs divine, but cleric vs. druid. Arcane magic... would require a different analogy. And depends greatly on what the heck magic is in your game. If all magic flows from the divine, then arcane magic is about hacking into those flows. Maybe life magic is too complex to pull out of the system as is, but by golly you can use the bits and pieces to manipulate things in all sorts of interesting ways. If Clerics use an orbital array to draw power for their Orgone collecter, Wizards simply hack the array controls and use the microwave beam as an orbital death ray. Or magic is part of reality independent of gods, and it's just a matter of how you learn to do things. Apparently creating an entire object from scratch is simpler than putting somebody back together from a damaged state, and gods carry the secrets of life. Or maybe the gods have good copy protection on their spells for Who Lives and Who Dies. Or maybe Arcane is AC and Divine is DC, and you can't run a spell built for one on the other without an adapter. I've always perferred a spiritual vs. material approach.

[LibraryOgre]

I find it weird that all the races are techically under one religion.

In DnD the Deities for a setting typically fall under one Pantheon. So even though you wouldn't see a cleric of Tiamat break bread with one of Bahamut(sp) they are technically following the same religion.

Though then again that didn't stop Sparta from attacking Athens.

Consider one of the better known AD&D examples: Dragonlance. There are 21 deities on Krynn... 7 good, 7 evil, 7 neutral. EVERYONE who worships a real deity worships one of the 21; if you worship someone else, you don't get spells, even if that person is a powerful deity in your home crystal sphere. Sometimes, a deity will go by different names in different places (Sargas of the Minotaurs is Sargonas of the Solamnians), but they're always the same deity with the same portfolio and very similar beliefs.

Why? Because the deities are real, actively engaged, individuals. In Eberron, they may or may not be real, and they're certainly not actively engaged, but in Dragonlance, if they're not having a snit fit because people don't love them right, then the gods meddle in the affairs of men and elves.

[Jayabalard]

So something that I've been wondering for a while now... most fantasy RPG settings (or fantasy settings in general, for that matter, but it seems to be more prevalent in RPGs) are basically a pseudo-Medieval Europe when it comes to technology and culture (although certain technologies--like firearms--are generally downplayed, and cultures are much more likely to just be "hats"). However, one of the biggest facets of Medieval Europe--a single, monolithic church and monotheistic religion--gets thrown out in favor of a polytheistic pantheon of gods, often with a Classical Greek/Roman feel.

I'm not necessarily saying there's anything wrong with that--I did it when I created my campaign world, although I did include one single church of said pantheon--but I would like to know if anyone has any idea about why that's the case.

And a related question, are there any major RPG settings with a monotheistic religion (or no single prevalent religion)?

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I do know that the Catholic Church was not universal in Medieval Europe--there was the Eastern (Greek/Russian) Orthodox branches and eventually Protestantism--but that's not the point. Even the major non-Christian religions were monotheistic--polytheism was very rare in Medieval Europe.

Also, I only bring up the religion of Medieval Europe as a comparison to how things are portrayed in most RPGs. I'm not intending to make this a discussion of real-world religion, so please don't take the discussion in that direction.

GURPS fantasy setting (Yrth) uses real world religions.

• Al-Haz: Shiite Islamic
• Al-Wazif: Sunni Islamic
• Araterre - Island nation. 16th Century Catholicism brought into line by Banestorm Church. strong Huguenot "heresy".
• Cardiel - Formed from the former Islamic Nation of Al-Kard, which was conquered by Megalos, but lost control of Cardiel. Nominally Catholic, practices tolerance of other religions.
• Caithness: Catholic
• Megalos — The largest nation of Yrth, Megalos is a human-dominated Christian Empire. Catholic
• The Nomad Lands: Pagan
• The Oceans
• The Orclands: Anti-The Eternal
• Sahud - Quasi-Asian nation on the northern coast of Yrth. Buddhist/Shinto
• The Great Forest. Elven worhip of the Eternal
• The Southwestern Wilderness
• Tredroy: City of Three Laws — Tredroy is a city divided between the rule of Cardiel, Al-Haz and Al-Wazif.
• Zarak — The Underground Kingdom of the Dwarves. Dwarven Worship of the Eternal