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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Wait... What? [Long story]

    Ok... So here is a tale of stupidity on all fronts. In order to become Epic in my setting, a character must face a powerful challenge solo. So what did I make the gestalt Hexblade 20//Warlock 20?

    A Titan. Yup... I thought this should stop him becoming Epic too easily. The fight lasted 2 round. 3 if you include his surprise round.

    He starts by saying something to the Titan and halfway through his sentence he shouts "Eldritch Blast!", giving him a free shot before the battle even begins. This is a normal tactic of his when up against NPCs, so I pretty much expected it as soon as he started talking.

    So I have the Titan charge in and attack, dealing a fair amount of damage.

    His first attack is to get to 10ft by 5ft-stepping back and using Eldritch Glaive (Dragon Magic), giving him a Full-Attack against the Titan. He has a feat from the Complete Arcane (Or Mage, pretty sure Arcane) that allows him to take 10 on caster level checks and he has Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, so he can pretty much overcome the thing's SR without rolling. He does a fair amount of damage and takes the Titan down to about 2/3 Hp.

    I realise that a full-attack from the titan should take him down, but I do it anyway because I'm known for rolling 1s a lot and I figure one will miss and he'll survive. I roll two d20s twice...

    Four 1s. Yup. This is the start of how stupid my luck is. As a player I'm horrible and die a fair amount because of my luck. I roll damage really well, but d20s hate me. So the Titan misses four attacks...

    Ok, so this player then uses Maximise Spell-Like Ability on his Eldritch Blast, so his full attack with his Eldritch Glaive now does 240 damage to the Titan, taking it to -39 Con by my altered Hp rules (See Variant Systems thread for details).

    So... Yeah... I still need to look up whether that was a legal move or not, but I'm pretty sure he didn't cheat, even by accident (Feel free to correct me because I'll love you forever if you do). I hate my luck and that player.

    One Eldritch Blast and 8 attacks with a weapon that hits touch AC. That's how to take down a Titan, apparently.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Darklord Xavez's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    What you do in that situation is you FUDGE THE DICE. They can never win, because the dice are on your side. And besides, you should have pitted him against an outsider. They're much tougher. Possibly a fallen solar?
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklord Xavez View Post
    What you do in that situation is you FUDGE THE DICE. They can never win, because the dice are on your side. And besides, you should have pitted him against an outsider. They're much tougher. Possibly a fallen solar?
    -Xavez
    Why even roll then, if he can never win because you cheat? Just say "you die, lol" and move on to playing something else more fun. Dominos, perhaps?

    More seriously, that's some terrible advice. The answer is never "they can never win, because you cheat".

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklord Xavez View Post
    What you do in that situation is you FUDGE THE DICE. They can never win, because the dice are on your side. And besides, you should have pitted him against an outsider. They're much tougher. Possibly a fallen solar?
    -Xavez
    Well, I thought the challenge should be doable, so that he could obtain Epic. I didn't want to stop him, I just wanted to make it hard.

    And my face went into rage mode when I saw those four 1s Couldn't hide that and it kinda makes the story that much funnier for everyone but me.
    Last edited by Rin_Hunter; 2010-05-29 at 05:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Why didn't the Titan make use of its spell-like abilities?
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Obrysii View Post
    Why didn't the Titan make use of its spell-like abilities?
    It was a solo match. Didn't want him to get splattered too badly. A light beating was what I was going for.

    If I had wanted him splattered, then I would have changed its Quick Spell-Like Ability to Cure Moderate Wounds instead of Chain Lightning and started the battle Invisible.
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Obrysii View Post
    Why didn't the Titan make use of its spell-like abilities?
    This. The Monster Manual even suggests that you use 'em.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    This. The Monster Manual even suggests that you use 'em.
    See my last post. There are a few ways I could have defeated him if I had used the Spell-Like Abilities and I did want him to win. Didn't think it would be that easy.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rin_Hunter View Post
    Ok... So here is a tale of stupidity on all fronts. In order to become Epic in my setting, a character must face a powerful challenge solo. So what did I make the gestalt Hexblade 20//Warlock 20?

    A Titan. Yup... I thought this should stop him becoming Epic too easily. The fight lasted 2 round. 3 if you include his surprise round.

    He starts by saying something to the Titan and halfway through his sentence he shouts "Eldritch Blast!", giving him a free shot before the battle even begins. This is a normal tactic of his when up against NPCs, so I pretty much expected it as soon as he started talking.

    So I have the Titan charge in and attack, dealing a fair amount of damage.

    His first attack is to get to 10ft by 5ft-stepping back and using Eldritch Glaive (Dragon Magic), giving him a Full-Attack against the Titan. He has a feat from the Complete Arcane (Or Mage, pretty sure Arcane) that allows him to take 10 on caster level checks and he has Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, so he can pretty much overcome the thing's SR without rolling. He does a fair amount of damage and takes the Titan down to about 2/3 Hp.

    I realise that a full-attack from the titan should take him down, but I do it anyway because I'm known for rolling 1s a lot and I figure one will miss and he'll survive. I roll two d20s twice...

    Four 1s. Yup. This is the start of how stupid my luck is. As a player I'm horrible and die a fair amount because of my luck. I roll damage really well, but d20s hate me. So the Titan misses four attacks...

    Ok, so this player then uses Maximise Spell-Like Ability on his Eldritch Blast, so his full attack with his Eldritch Glaive now does 240 damage to the Titan, taking it to -39 Con by my altered Hp rules (See Variant Systems thread for details).

    So... Yeah... I still need to look up whether that was a legal move or not, but I'm pretty sure he didn't cheat, even by accident (Feel free to correct me because I'll love you forever if you do). I hate my luck and that player.

    One Eldritch Blast and 8 attacks with a weapon that hits touch AC. That's how to take down a Titan, apparently.
    I'm surprised he doesn't have Utterdark Blast. You could have let him fight a titan who instead of a hammer uses a bow throws weapons, works well with Brutal Throw from CA.
    Last edited by Ferrin; 2010-05-29 at 06:07 PM.
    Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrin View Post
    I'm surprised he doesn't have Utterdark Blast. You could have let him fight a titan who instead of a hammer uses a bow.
    He did say that he wished he'd taken it
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    You shoulda at least have popped a quickened chain lightning after missing all of your attacks. It might have forced your player to spend a round recovering hp or at least done enough damage to make him reconsider staying right next to your monster.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rin_Hunter View Post
    He did say that he wished he'd taken it
    Oh, and doesn't he have incredible saves + mettle? I'd imagine your spell-like abilities not making much of a dent. Though Gate, SNA and Etherealness could help.
    Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Or else you could have given the Titan something to increase his touch AC a bit, since you knew well beforehand what kind of attacks the player was capable of.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    I love how you lot keep suggesting ways of killing him when I keep saying I wanted it to be difficult, not a player kill You guys are like the little lawful evil outsiders on my shoulder shouting "Kill him!" and I'm finding it hard to resist~ But fear not, I'm building a Dragon to slaughter him with.

    At any rate, Heaxblade/Warlock is a potent combination.
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rin_Hunter View Post
    It was a solo match. Didn't want him to get splattered too badly. A light beating was what I was going for.
    Yeah. Part of the problem would be that the SLAs play an important role in the Titan's CR. Without them, that Titan is not really very dangerous. =/

    Seriously, he was facing a what, CR 15 solo monster?
    Last edited by Ernir; 2010-05-29 at 06:21 PM.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    I prefer Binder/Crusader though.

    But no, I'm not giving ways to kill him, I'm giving ways to make it more challenging. Which... could give a chance to kill him.

    Oh, and does he know about the Enlightened Spirit PrC from Complete Mage? It's pretty damn nice for gestalt.
    Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Why even roll then, if he can never win because you cheat? Just say "you die, lol" and move on to playing something else more fun. Dominos, perhaps?

    More seriously, that's some terrible advice. The answer is never "they can never win, because you cheat".
    The usual followup game is a variant of "Kill the Carrier" I generally find.

    Only replace "Carrier" with "DM". The kill part is seldom modified.
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernir View Post
    Yeah. Part of the problem would be that the SLAs play an important role in the Titan's CR. Without them, that Titan is not really very dangerous. =/

    Seriously, he was facing a what, CR 15 solo monster?
    It would have dropped him had I not rolled four 1s in a single round.

    Ferrin: I shall have to check that class out, but I don't think he does.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rin_Hunter View Post
    It would have dropped him had I not rolled four 1s in a single round.

    Ferrin: I shall have to check that class out, but I don't think he does.
    Ah allright, show him some of the invocations in that book while you're at it. I like Crawling Eye and Nightmares Made Real myself.
    Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrin View Post
    Ah allright, show him some of the invocations in that book while you're at it. I like Crawling Eye and Nightmares Made Real myself.
    He does look at the Invocations in there... And Cityscape... And Dragon Magic... and wherever else they are~

    We often have a pile book during a session.
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  21. - Top - End - #21
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rin_Hunter View Post
    He does look at the Invocations in there... And Cityscape... And Dragon Magic... and wherever else they are~

    We often have a pile book during a session.
    Ah allright, I'll take this chance to say that I love Devil's Whispers from Cityscape.

    You should be glad he isn't much of an optimizer though, a level of binder with hellfire warlock and enlightened spirit would have pumped his EB damage sky high.
    Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrin View Post
    Ah allright, I'll take this chance to say that I love Devil's Whispers from Cityscape.

    You should be glad he isn't much of an optimizer though, a level of binder with hellfire warlock and enlightened spirit would have pumped his EB damage sky high.
    If he reads this I may just end up throwing a dragon at him anyway...
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  23. - Top - End - #23
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rin_Hunter View Post
    If he reads this I may just end up throwing a dragon at him anyway...
    Depends on the age of he dragon, I'd also suggest paladin of freedom in the build above, and maybe two levels of rogue for the evasion. Oh, make him take the feat rogue ACF from UA, better then 1d6 SA for him.

    Edit: Oh, and I'm going to sleep now, good luck with finding a way so both of you can have fun.
    Last edited by Ferrin; 2010-05-29 at 07:16 PM.
    Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    And this is exactly why I consider eldritch glaive overpowered to the point of brokenness.
    And I have learned as a dm that taking it easy on pc's that don't take it easy on their build tends to make it a cakewalk.
    So don't be afraid to dent them a little, as soon as things get real bad start fudging or force them too retreat for a change.
    Or kill them outright if their lvl is high enough to fix that and add a little extra loot so they can afford it.
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Why even roll then, if he can never win because you cheat?
    More broadly speaking: Why randomize events in the first place when you already know how you want them to go? In the scenario described, for example, Rin_Hunter had a fairly specific idea of how hard she wanted the fight to be for the PC, such that deviating from this too far in either direction would be dissatisfying. So why allow the dice to screw things up?

    Well... because it's a game. Things are deliberately set up so that it's hard to do what you want, so that by overcoming this artificial challenge one may achieve a pleasing artificial sense of accomplishment. That is, by and large, how games work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rin_Hunter View Post
    I love how you lot keep suggesting ways of killing him when I keep saying I wanted it to be difficult, not a player kill You guys are like the little lawful evil outsiders on my shoulder shouting "Kill him!" and I'm finding it hard to resist~
    I suppose that I would be remiss not to participate in this. Allow me to expound, therefore, upon the constraints relevant to such a task.

    There is, of course, no meaningful challenge in destroying a player character by pitting him against an opponent that he could possibly defeat. That's little different from simply declaring "Rocks fall; everybody dies". A devastating TPK is not only trivial to achieve but means the end of the campaign.

    A good GM is ultimately not bound by any rule so tightly as by his own desire for fair play. The real challenge, for those with the right combination of dedication and sadism, is to devastate the party in a way that falls short of a TPK, such that the players feel grateful that any of their characters even survived. This task demands cunning, for to truly inspire such gratitude for the party's survival, the players must be made to feel that their misfortune was the result of their own ineptitude.

    It's easy to get the players to say "There's no way we possibly could have survived that". But to get them to say, in retrospect, "Oh, man, we totally could have won that fight if we hadn't made that dumb mistake"... That is the Holy Grail.

    To paraphrase AGC a bit.

    (And this is not inherently anti-player at all, as thwarting Lawful Evil GMs can be very, very rewarding. )
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rin_Hunter View Post
    See my last post. There are a few ways I could have defeated him if I had used the Spell-Like Abilities and I did want him to win. Didn't think it would be that easy.
    I think the point was - after missing with all your attacks, why didn't you fall back on a quickened chain lightning? If you had hit with some of attacks for decent damage, I can understanding not wanting to push the player over the brick, but you did no damage here!

    I doubt 20d6 would have sufficed in TPK'ing the warlock, though it might have made his victory more gritty and "hard-earned", which was what you are aiming for, no?

    But to be fair, the MM monsters were designed with core PCs (and apparently fairly unoptimized PCs at that) in mind. So I wouldn't be surprised that vs non-core PCs, they would be less effective in fighting them. I have always thought the titan was a tad on the weak side for its cr21 unless you are willing to go all out and not pull any punches (eg: maze the cleric, pelt the party with quickened, maximized chain lightnings every round etc). 370 hp isn't really a lot by today's standards.

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    More broadly speaking: Why randomize events in the first place when you already know how you want them to go? In the scenario described, for example, Rin_Hunter had a fairly specific idea of how hard she wanted the fight to be for the PC, such that deviating from this too far in either direction would be dissatisfying. So why allow the dice to screw things up?
    You missed my point, I think. I was railing against the advice of "just cheat on the die rolls so the Titan wins", which is TERRIBLE advice. I made no judgments about Rin's methods, and frankly, have done the exact same thing multiple times (set up a challenging fight, rolled craptastically, it was ruined, many laughs were had by all, etcetcetc).

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    But to be fair, the MM monsters were designed with core PCs (and apparently fairly unoptimized PCs at that) in mind. So I wouldn't be surprised that vs non-core PCs, they would be less effective in fighting them. I have always thought the titan was a tad on the weak side for its cr21 unless you are willing to go all out and not pull any punches (eg: maze the cleric, pelt the party with quickened, maximized chain lightnings every round etc). 370 hp isn't really a lot by today's standards.
    Also, the fact that it was a gestalt PC also tips the balance away from the monster's favor.
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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    The way I see it, the player made some solid investments into being able to do this kind of thing (Arcane Mastery, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration is extremely heavy anti-SR investment), and luck was on his side that day. I don't see a problem, besides you should have maybe used an SLA or two.

    20th level: It's rocket tag. Be thankful the Titan got a turn at all. Don't expect that to continue, Epic gets worse.

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    Default Re: Wait... What? [Long story]

    Let me get this straight:

    1.He's a damage-oriented build
    2.He's non-ranged
    3.You didn't want to kill him

    Given that, why the hell did you send something with "Stand still and kill" tactics at him? The HELL?!?!? In that situation, its either kill or be killed. Instead, drop to a dragon gestalted with DFA(primarily for the breath weapon with no recharge), and snag flyby attack. Increase movement into the stratosphere, and go to town with tailor-made damage to kill him in 3 rounds of max damage, or 5-6 with average(and roll it, don't maximize it). If he can beat that, great, but if he can't, there's easy ways to get out of dodge. Be sure to dip wizard for abrupt jaunt, too.

    At high levels, the name of the game is about one of two battle styles:
    -control and avoidance
    -insta-kill

    Since you're avoiding insta-kill, you should've used control and avoidance tactics.
    Avatar by Assassin89
    I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
    My homebrew(updated 6/17):

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