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Thread: Wait... What? [Long story]
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2010-05-29, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Wait... What? [Long story]
Ok... So here is a tale of stupidity on all fronts. In order to become Epic in my setting, a character must face a powerful challenge solo. So what did I make the gestalt Hexblade 20//Warlock 20?
A Titan. Yup... I thought this should stop him becoming Epic too easily. The fight lasted 2 round. 3 if you include his surprise round.
He starts by saying something to the Titan and halfway through his sentence he shouts "Eldritch Blast!", giving him a free shot before the battle even begins. This is a normal tactic of his when up against NPCs, so I pretty much expected it as soon as he started talking.
So I have the Titan charge in and attack, dealing a fair amount of damage.
His first attack is to get to 10ft by 5ft-stepping back and using Eldritch Glaive (Dragon Magic), giving him a Full-Attack against the Titan. He has a feat from the Complete Arcane (Or Mage, pretty sure Arcane) that allows him to take 10 on caster level checks and he has Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, so he can pretty much overcome the thing's SR without rolling. He does a fair amount of damage and takes the Titan down to about 2/3 Hp.
I realise that a full-attack from the titan should take him down, but I do it anyway because I'm known for rolling 1s a lot and I figure one will miss and he'll survive. I roll two d20s twice...
Four 1s. Yup. This is the start of how stupid my luck is. As a player I'm horrible and die a fair amount because of my luck. I roll damage really well, but d20s hate me. So the Titan misses four attacks...
Ok, so this player then uses Maximise Spell-Like Ability on his Eldritch Blast, so his full attack with his Eldritch Glaive now does 240 damage to the Titan, taking it to -39 Con by my altered Hp rules (See Variant Systems thread for details).
So... Yeah... I still need to look up whether that was a legal move or not, but I'm pretty sure he didn't cheat, even by accident (Feel free to correct me because I'll love you forever if you do). I hate my luck and that player.
One Eldritch Blast and 8 attacks with a weapon that hits touch AC. That's how to take down a Titan, apparently.I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-05-29, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
What you do in that situation is you FUDGE THE DICE. They can never win, because the dice are on your side. And besides, you should have pitted him against an outsider. They're much tougher. Possibly a fallen solar?
-Xavez
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2010-05-29, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-05-29, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Well, I thought the challenge should be doable, so that he could obtain Epic. I didn't want to stop him, I just wanted to make it hard.
And my face went into rage mode when I saw those four 1s Couldn't hide that and it kinda makes the story that much funnier for everyone but me.Last edited by Rin_Hunter; 2010-05-29 at 05:55 PM.
I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-05-29, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Why didn't the Titan make use of its spell-like abilities?
RIP Tasha, April 1986 to November 25th, 2008. 22 years and 7 months of being the best kitty ever. You will be missed forever.
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2010-05-29, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
It was a solo match. Didn't want him to get splattered too badly. A light beating was what I was going for.
If I had wanted him splattered, then I would have changed its Quick Spell-Like Ability to Cure Moderate Wounds instead of Chain Lightning and started the battle Invisible.I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-05-29, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-29, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-05-29, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Last edited by Ferrin; 2010-05-29 at 06:07 PM.
Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036
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2010-05-29, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-05-29, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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- Imagination Land
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
You shoulda at least have popped a quickened chain lightning after missing all of your attacks. It might have forced your player to spend a round recovering hp or at least done enough damage to make him reconsider staying right next to your monster.
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2010-05-29, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036
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2010-05-29, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Or else you could have given the Titan something to increase his touch AC a bit, since you knew well beforehand what kind of attacks the player was capable of.
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2010-05-29, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
I love how you lot keep suggesting ways of killing him when I keep saying I wanted it to be difficult, not a player kill You guys are like the little lawful evil outsiders on my shoulder shouting "Kill him!" and I'm finding it hard to resist~ But fear not, I'm building a Dragon to slaughter him with.
At any rate, Heaxblade/Warlock is a potent combination.I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-05-29, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Last edited by Ernir; 2010-05-29 at 06:21 PM.
Halfling healer avatar by Akrim.elf.
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2010-05-29, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
I prefer Binder/Crusader though.
But no, I'm not giving ways to kill him, I'm giving ways to make it more challenging. Which... could give a chance to kill him.
Oh, and does he know about the Enlightened Spirit PrC from Complete Mage? It's pretty damn nice for gestalt.Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036
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2010-05-29, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Remember how I was wishing for the peace of oblivion a minute ago?
Yeah. That hasn't exactly changed with more knowledge of the situation. -Security Chief Victor Jones, formerly of the UESC Marathon.
X-Com avatar by BRC. He's good folks.
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2010-05-29, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-05-29, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Netherlands
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036
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2010-05-29, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- Cardiff, UK
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
-
2010-05-29, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036
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2010-05-29, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-05-29, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Depends on the age of he dragon, I'd also suggest paladin of freedom in the build above, and maybe two levels of rogue for the evasion. Oh, make him take the feat rogue ACF from UA, better then 1d6 SA for him.
Edit: Oh, and I'm going to sleep now, good luck with finding a way so both of you can have fun.Last edited by Ferrin; 2010-05-29 at 07:16 PM.
Please read and evaluate the changes I'm trying to smooth out in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154036
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2010-05-29, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
And this is exactly why I consider eldritch glaive overpowered to the point of brokenness.
And I have learned as a dm that taking it easy on pc's that don't take it easy on their build tends to make it a cakewalk.
So don't be afraid to dent them a little, as soon as things get real bad start fudging or force them too retreat for a change.
Or kill them outright if their lvl is high enough to fix that and add a little extra loot so they can afford it."Quick Draw. It grants the ability to turn any boring non-combat scenario into combat as a FREE ACTION."-Deleted User
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2010-05-29, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
More broadly speaking: Why randomize events in the first place when you already know how you want them to go? In the scenario described, for example, Rin_Hunter had a fairly specific idea of how hard she wanted the fight to be for the PC, such that deviating from this too far in either direction would be dissatisfying. So why allow the dice to screw things up?
Well... because it's a game. Things are deliberately set up so that it's hard to do what you want, so that by overcoming this artificial challenge one may achieve a pleasing artificial sense of accomplishment. That is, by and large, how games work.
I suppose that I would be remiss not to participate in this. Allow me to expound, therefore, upon the constraints relevant to such a task.
There is, of course, no meaningful challenge in destroying a player character by pitting him against an opponent that he could possibly defeat. That's little different from simply declaring "Rocks fall; everybody dies". A devastating TPK is not only trivial to achieve but means the end of the campaign.
A good GM is ultimately not bound by any rule so tightly as by his own desire for fair play. The real challenge, for those with the right combination of dedication and sadism, is to devastate the party in a way that falls short of a TPK, such that the players feel grateful that any of their characters even survived. This task demands cunning, for to truly inspire such gratitude for the party's survival, the players must be made to feel that their misfortune was the result of their own ineptitude.
It's easy to get the players to say "There's no way we possibly could have survived that". But to get them to say, in retrospect, "Oh, man, we totally could have won that fight if we hadn't made that dumb mistake"... That is the Holy Grail.
To paraphrase AGC a bit.
(And this is not inherently anti-player at all, as thwarting Lawful Evil GMs can be very, very rewarding. )
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2010-05-29, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
I think the point was - after missing with all your attacks, why didn't you fall back on a quickened chain lightning? If you had hit with some of attacks for decent damage, I can understanding not wanting to push the player over the brick, but you did no damage here!
I doubt 20d6 would have sufficed in TPK'ing the warlock, though it might have made his victory more gritty and "hard-earned", which was what you are aiming for, no?
But to be fair, the MM monsters were designed with core PCs (and apparently fairly unoptimized PCs at that) in mind. So I wouldn't be surprised that vs non-core PCs, they would be less effective in fighting them. I have always thought the titan was a tad on the weak side for its cr21 unless you are willing to go all out and not pull any punches (eg: maze the cleric, pelt the party with quickened, maximized chain lightnings every round etc). 370 hp isn't really a lot by today's standards.
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2010-05-29, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
You missed my point, I think. I was railing against the advice of "just cheat on the die rolls so the Titan wins", which is TERRIBLE advice. I made no judgments about Rin's methods, and frankly, have done the exact same thing multiple times (set up a challenging fight, rolled craptastically, it was ruined, many laughs were had by all, etcetcetc).
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2010-05-29, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
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2010-05-29, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
The way I see it, the player made some solid investments into being able to do this kind of thing (Arcane Mastery, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration is extremely heavy anti-SR investment), and luck was on his side that day. I don't see a problem, besides you should have maybe used an SLA or two.
20th level: It's rocket tag. Be thankful the Titan got a turn at all. Don't expect that to continue, Epic gets worse.
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2010-05-29, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Wait... What? [Long story]
Let me get this straight:
1.He's a damage-oriented build
2.He's non-ranged
3.You didn't want to kill him
Given that, why the hell did you send something with "Stand still and kill" tactics at him? The HELL?!?!? In that situation, its either kill or be killed. Instead, drop to a dragon gestalted with DFA(primarily for the breath weapon with no recharge), and snag flyby attack. Increase movement into the stratosphere, and go to town with tailor-made damage to kill him in 3 rounds of max damage, or 5-6 with average(and roll it, don't maximize it). If he can beat that, great, but if he can't, there's easy ways to get out of dodge. Be sure to dip wizard for abrupt jaunt, too.
At high levels, the name of the game is about one of two battle styles:
-control and avoidance
-insta-kill
Since you're avoiding insta-kill, you should've used control and avoidance tactics.Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
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