nWoD fansplat: Dragon: the Inheritance

[Almarck]

Your points are fair particularly on the Resolve for calculation of ranged part, so I'll withdraw that part.

Spoiler: 1e Rules stuff

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By the way, I did some digging, specificially in the 1e core rules since 2e does not have grenade or archery rules yet. Archery does not allow Defense either, so bear that in mind. This may change in Hurt Locker, but for now, page 154 in the core book covers archery and guns as the same thing attack roll wise.

You are right that thrown weapons penalize defense against the attack roll, but grenades are in an odd situation because technically, you do not need to hit your opponents, just the area next to them. No entry I could find has been for nor against defense penalizing, just that when it goes off, defense offers no protection.

Once again, technically old edition rules, but the differences between the two are mostly in melee combat and armor rules anyways. Defense just has a slightly different calculation.

Also, flamethrowers are treated as firearms and well, you get the idea.

My point is that it is a very hard legacy to work with. It's very impractical to rank up compared to Bones, even after factoring building towards it, its a very high oppurtunity cost to pay. As I keep saying, the problem is in the early game, not the midgame or late game, because the AoE effect is simply not doable with a low dice pool penalized by defense unless we're dealing with swarms or such.

Perhaps, as a compromise, I have the following proposal: "characters who are subject to a Breath of the Inferno attack do not add their skill bonus to their defense against the attack", representing it's fast and overwhelming, but not completely unavoidable. As a result, they use their Dex or Wits and any other defense bonuses like Celerity to avoid it. Sort of like how Werewolf Primal Fear works and they ignore this rule if they get defense versus firearms. This will make it useful in all levels of play. Slayers of course will be able to use their skill bonus, setting them apart from other rivals since they have an innate counter to the dragon's signature weapons, something no other supernatural or combatant can do.

Maybe a little strongish, but as you said before, the damage is not increased by successes.

Although, I will not that I find it fascinating that the Legacy had such an early iteration. Granted, I guess the fire rules are okay. They're still mostly found in 1e right? I am actually kind of curious as to what inspired the mechanics for the Legacy.

But whatever, I guess I will not stress you out on this particular topic too much until it's time to really do combat tests or something. I suppose I jusst get overzealous.


Speaking of other things:

Does Flamewalker work if you're in a burning building if it was set on fire specifically to kill people? Because technically, it is being weaponized.

Should Iron Mind from Hide of Iron be moved elsewhere now that, Graciousness of the Host is a thing?Same with Bulwark of Will.



Also, I had this idea for an Aux Legacy for Lerna's Immortality or Hide of Iron. Once per Story, if you would be slain by an attack while in Anthropos, you may immediatelly shift to Drakonos (thus gaining more health dots to not die) and take an instant action in retaliation, breaking innitiatve. This idea was to go "One Winged Angel" or act out that trope where a boss transitions into the next phase. Maybe add a fullheal type effect.

Could be what you use for Eternal


I hope I am not being overly... enthusiastic as well.

[One Tin Soldier]

Your points are fair particularly on the Resolve for calculation of ranged part, so I'll withdraw that part.

Spoiler: 1e Rules stuff

Show

By the way, I did some digging, specificially in the 1e core rules since 2e does not have grenade or archery rules yet. Archery does not allow Defense either, so bear that in mind. This may change in Hurt Locker, but for now, page 154 in the core book covers archery and guns as the same thing attack roll wise.

You are right that thrown weapons penalize defense against the attack roll, but grenades are in an odd situation because technically, you do not need to hit your opponents, just the area next to them. No entry I could find has been for nor against defense penalizing, just that when it goes off, defense offers no protection.

Once again, technically old edition rules, but the differences between the two are mostly in melee combat and armor rules anyways. Defense just has a slightly different calculation.

Also, flamethrowers are treated as firearms and well, you get the idea.

My point is that it is a very hard legacy to work with. It's very impractical to rank up compared to Bones, even after factoring building towards it, its a very high oppurtunity cost to pay. As I keep saying, the problem is in the early game, not the midgame or late game, because the AoE effect is simply not doable with a low dice pool penalized by defense unless we're dealing with swarms or such.

Perhaps, as a compromise, I have the following proposal: "characters who are subject to a Breath of the Inferno attack do not add their skill bonus to their defense against the attack", representing it's fast and overwhelming, but not completely unavoidable. As a result, they use their Dex or Wits and any other defense bonuses like Celerity to avoid it. Sort of like how Werewolf Primal Fear works and they ignore this rule if they get defense versus firearms. This will make it useful in all levels of play. Slayers of course will be able to use their skill bonus, setting them apart from other rivals since they have an innate counter to the dragon's signature weapons, something no other supernatural or combatant can do.

Maybe a little strongish, but as you said before, the damage is not increased by successes.

Although, I will not that I find it fascinating that the Legacy had such an early iteration. Granted, I guess the fire rules are okay. They're still mostly found in 1e right? I am actually kind of curious as to what inspired the mechanics for the Legacy.

But whatever, I guess I will not stress you out on this particular topic too much until it's time to really do combat tests or something. I suppose I jusst get overzealous.

I'm hoping that we'll get full archery stuff with Hurt Locker, but I am 95% sure that it does calculate defense. We've certainly been counting it for my archer Changeling for the past 4 years, and I read a lot of archery stuff during that time.
2e fire rules are also exactly the same as 1e fire rules. It's one of the things that wasn't mentioned in the rules update because it didn't change.

And I'm perfectly happy to put the discussion aside for now.

Speaking of other things:

Does Flamewalker work if you're in a burning building if it was set on fire specifically to kill people? Because technically, it is being weaponized.

Should Iron Mind from Hide of Iron be moved elsewhere now that, Graciousness of the Host is a thing?Same with Bulwark of Will.



Also, I had this idea for an Aux Legacy for Lerna's Immortality or Hide of Iron. Once per Story, if you would be slain by an attack while in Anthropos, you may immediatelly shift to Drakonos (thus gaining more health dots to not die) and take an instant action in retaliation, breaking innitiatve. This idea was to go "One Winged Angel" or act out that trope where a boss transitions into the next phase. Maybe add a fullheal type effect.

Could be what you use for Eternal

Flamewalker would work just fine in a purposely set house fire. If the fire were being supernaturally controlled to harm people it would do damage, or if the dragon was caught in the blast of an incendiary device to start it. The line can admittedly be a bit fuzzy, but I'd say that purposeful control of the fire to harm is the key point. Weapon = damage, environment = safe. To use another example, that dragon could hold the burning end of a torch just fine, but if that same torch is being shoved into their eye by an angry villager it will deal damage.

Iron Mind might be moved, or removed entirely, or split up into different abilities, or etc.

An interesting idea, although I think it might be possible to do something like that already. Since shifting is reflexive.

I hope I am not being overly... enthusiastic as well.

Not terribly. I prefer more enthusiasm to less, anyway. It just shows that you're invested in the project.
That said, we could probably leave a little more room for other people to get words in edgewise.

[Amechra]

On healing: I still disagree on it being that good; the other splat that currently has a comparable "healing power" (Vampires) gets it automatically, and is also a lot tougher to injure (downgrading all forms of damage except supernatural and banes is huge). A starting Vampire heals one Bashing or Lethal by spending one Vitae... but only takes Lethal from severe overkill and doesn't fall over due to Bashing damage. So it's more like they're healing 1.5 HLs; and they can choose to blow their pool on it, which is an option that Hydras don't have.

Also, most low-level Vampire powers are free; you aren't making that same kind of "healing or awesome powers" choice until later on, when you can spend enough Vitae per turn that the choice is one of resources rather than rate.

The issue is how much health Dragons have while transformed; my test Hydra hit 14 HLs (Titanic ••• + Hide of Iron •• means she gets 6 more HLs in Drakonos). That 1 HL of healing doesn't really cut it. A maxed-out Hydra can have 44 HLs. Healing 5 HLs is... unsatisfying.

Especially if you compare it to the other two Unique Legacies that get a core effect that isn't just "bigger size"; neither of them cost any WP to use, and they're both stronger than IoL because of it.

On other things: I was thinking of my one contribution to the game (hey dere Strength Enough), and was wondering if anything would break if all of the Legacies got an equivalent 5-dot Auxiliary Legacy? So you'd have Stamina Enough, Intelligence Enough, Wits Enough, etc, etc, etc. I'm not saying that they should replace anything, just that it might be neat to have it as a third option.

[One Tin Soldier]

On healing: I still disagree on it being that good; the other splat that currently has a comparable "healing power" (Vampires) gets it automatically, and is also a lot tougher to injure (downgrading all forms of damage except supernatural and banes is huge). A starting Vampire heals one Bashing or Lethal by spending one Vitae... but only takes Lethal from severe overkill and doesn't fall over due to Bashing damage. So it's more like they're healing 1.5 HLs; and they can choose to blow their pool on it, which is an option that Hydras don't have.

Also, most low-level Vampire powers are free; you aren't making that same kind of "healing or awesome powers" choice until later on, when you can spend enough Vitae per turn that the choice is one of resources rather than rate.

The issue is how much health Dragons have while transformed; my test Hydra hit 14 HLs (Titanic ••• + Hide of Iron •• means she gets 6 more HLs in Drakonos). That 1 HL of healing doesn't really cut it. A maxed-out Hydra can have 44 HLs. Healing 5 HLs is... unsatisfying.

Especially if you compare it to the other two Unique Legacies that get a core effect that isn't just "bigger size"; neither of them cost any WP to use, and they're both stronger than IoL because of it.

On other things: I was thinking of my one contribution to the game (hey dere Strength Enough), and was wondering if anything would break if all of the Legacies got an equivalent 5-dot Auxiliary Legacy? So you'd have Stamina Enough, Intelligence Enough, Wits Enough, etc, etc, etc. I'm not saying that they should replace anything, just that it might be neat to have it as a third option.

I mean, most dragon powers are free, too. Breath of the Inferno and Presence of the Emporer are really the only big combat powers that consistently cost WP to use; there are a few auxiliaries that do it as well, but a dragon should always have some good options that don't require spending WP.
And personally, I think that being able to straight-up heal 5L a turn is very powerful. It's not Gauru-level healing, true, but our goal here isn't to surpass Werewolves in healing. As you mentioned, a maxed-out Hydra can have 44 Health. (Which comes with 5 Armor, by the way) Even without any healing at all, that's crazy. An attacker would have to do 11L every turn just to whittle the dragon down, until they run out of WP at least.


That's an interesting idea, but I feel like it fits best with Strength. The idea of doing similar ones for other stats could be a good example for a custom Auxiliary, though.

[Almarck]

Well, at the point you'd be playing the maxed out Hydra, the opponent will be using Antivehicle weapons to begin with and those have ridiculous Armor Piercing and Damage values, even after considering the fact that they currently exist in 1e.

I believe HEAT Rockets have 15L, AP 10. So... yeah. That's not something that can be healed that easily. Granted most parties will not run against rocket launchers and conventional weaponry is still next to useless, but my point is that they aren't as invulnerable as you'd think.

[Xallace]

I think there's room to tinker with the healing powers. Honestly, I'm not particularly satisfied with the mechanics of our current core power for the Hydra anyway. Not for power-related reasons, just aesthetic ones I guess. I'll have to think more on it.

The "[Attribute] Enough" idea for every attribute-boost legacy sounds to me like the dragon version of using Pyros/Glamour to boost dice pools. It'd be a neat inherent ability, I think, or something that comes with buying the relevant core legacy. It works very well as an auxiliary only if it's for Bones of the Mountain, I think - if we expand it to cover other attributes, it doesn't seem like it should fall under that category anymore.

Edit: Or I suppose it just ends up being like Excellencies from Exalted.

Edit 2: Titanic has been changed to a 2/4 dot merit.

[Almarck]

So, what does everyone think of adding Trickster, darkness themed birds of murder and trechery to the list of Garuda? Source, Raven and Tengu.



Just done the new test: Pitting Dragons against Their Slayers. It's a doozy and so I don't focus on it all day, I'm only going to limit myself to one Slayer a day. I plan to have 3 tests.


If you check below, you'll see why. Let's just say it's pretty absurd.

Spoiler: Next experiment: Dragon-Slaying

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Goal: Determine likelihood of dragon getting slain by a slayer one on one.

Test:
-1 Dragon tested against 3 different slayers over 3 different periods of experience. I plan to be doing each one at a time to give me ideas, focus, and some ways to think about adjusting the next fights.
-3 Periods are as defined: fresh, experienced, veteran.
-At each period above fresh, all characters gain the following increases: +2 Kau, +2 Attributes, +2 Skills, +1 to each Legacy
-Excluding heritage and dynastic legacies, as well as auxiliary legacies, for the purposes of simplicity and to determine things for an “average” dragon. For simplicity consider the Heritage Legacy as a straight +1 size increase
-Assume everything is “average” except for 2 attributes. These attributes are what are increased when ranking up.
-Assume Dragon is in Drakonos.
-Assume no where to run away, but the dragon can still fly off to make dive bombs.
-Different slayers should not pick too many of the same Arete


Disclaimer, the scenario and statistics run on the assumption everyone is unoptimized and is not suited to fighting, at least initially. This is to test out how effective slayers are against (mostly) equally skilled dragons.

Characters:

DRAGON
Str - 3
Dex - 2
Sta - 3
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 2
Athletics - 2

Legacies:
1 Bones = +1 Strength and +2 Weapon
1 Hide = +1 Stamina and 1/0 Armor
1 Eyes = +1 Wits
1 Wings = +1 Dexterity and flight


Traits:
Kau = 1

Willpower = 6
Defense = 5
Size = 7
Health = 11

The Dragon is only just barely tougher than most of his kind. Not devoted into any one area over others, he is built to be well rounded in combat and has little skill or tact for anything outside of it. As he grows more experienced, he learns more about combat and comes to rely on his strength even more.

Spoiler: DRAGON - Experienced

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DRAGON
Str - 4
Dex - 2
Sta - 4
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 3
Athletics - 3

Legacies:
2 Bones = +2 Strength and +3 Weapon
2 Hide = +2 Stamina and 2/0 Armor
2 Eyes = +2 Wits
2 Wings = +2 Dexterity and flight


Traits:
Kau = 3

Willpower = 8
Defense = 7
Size = 10
Health = 16

Spoiler: DRAGON - Veteran

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DRAGON
Str - 5
Dex - 2
Sta - 5
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 4
Athletics - 4

Legacies:
3 Bones = +3 Strength and +5 Weapon
3 Hide = +3 Stamina and 3/0 Armor
3 Eyes = +3 Wits
3 Wings = +3 Dexterity and flight


Traits:
Kau = 5

Willpower = 10
Defense = 9
Size = 13
Health = 21

HEUY - The KNIGHT
Str - 3
Dex - 2
Sta - 3
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 2
Athletics - 2

Arete:
-Size Difference between the two as defense bonus
-½ Kau to damage
-No wound penalties.

Gear:
-Wrench 1L


Traits:
Kau = 1

Willpower = 6
Defense = 4
Size = 5
Health = 8

Heuy the Knight started off as Heuy the plumber. Then one day, he met a dragon and was terrified out of his mind. As a result, his mind was broken into and he sees no other course of action other than to slay the beast, but how can a mere man fueled by desperation defeat such a foe?

As he grows more and more able and confident in himself, Heuy transitions from a simply handyman into a warrior, echoing back to warriors of old, the traditional enemies of dragon kind.

Spoiler: KNIGHT - Experienced

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Str - 4
Dex - 2
Sta - 4
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 3
Athletics - 3

Arete:
-Size Difference between the two as defense bonus
-½ Kau to damage
-No wound penalties.
-Add Kau to escape rolls

Gear:
-sword 2L
-Reinforced Clothing 1/0

Traits:
Kau = 3

Willpower = 8
Defense = 5
Size = 5
Health = 9

Spoiler: KNIGHT - Veteran

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Str - 5
Dex - 2
Sta - 5
Wits - 2
Com - 2
Res -2


Skills:
Brawl - 4
Athletics - 4

Arete:
-Size Difference between the two as defense bonus
-½ Kau to damage
-No wound penalties.
-Ignore Called shot penalties

Gear:
-Greatsword 3 (9-Again)
-Full Plate (4/3)

Traits:
Kau = 5

Willpower = 10
Defense = 6
Size = 5
Health = 10

Spoiler: Test

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Match 1 - Fresh
Dragon attack dice: +0
+ 5 Base attack
+ 1 Legacy bonus
- 4 Defense
-2 (5-7) Size Penalty

Dragon Damage: +2
+2 Weapon
-0 Armor


===
Huey attack dice: +0
+5 Base Attack
-5 Defense

Huey Damage: +0
+1 weapon
-1 Armor

Match 1 - Conclusion:
Dragon is favored, but only slightly because Huey lacks armor. Both combatants are currently at an even match in trying to hit each other. Huey does however may ignore wound penalties (or potentially tilts) due to his slayer abilities.

Assuming 1 success is scored each time, it’ll take 3 turns to cause Heuy to go into Aggravated, likely less if willpower is used. 4-5 such attacks will be needed


Huey meanwhile has to pass through a total of 11 successes to slay the dragon, not as likely with only 3 dice per turn and no weapon bonus.

The dragon, assuming 1 Willpower per turn is likely going to score damage against the slayer, whereas the slayer is forced to rely on luck.

Huey does not have enough WIllpower per turn to actually hurt the dragon much at this level because defense penalties are so high.

Match 2 - Experienced
Dragon attack dice: -1
+7 Base attack
+2 Legacy bonus
- 5 Defense
-5 (5-10) Size Penalty



Dragon Damage: +2
+3 Weapon
-1 Armor


===
Heuy attack dice: +0
+7 Base Attack
-7 Defense

Heuy Damage: +1
+2 weapon
+1 Arete
-2 Armor

Match 2 - Conclusion:
Dragon is favored again, but is slightly less do dependant on how being reduced into the Negative dice works at your table. Willpower is less likely to make up for his inability to strike the human.

The dragon needs to score about the same number of hits in the previous example to win. Though his damage has increased, the Slayer’s new armor makes it harder to kill him. Still, the slayer is human.

Huey meanwhile is favored better. While his ability to hit the dragon is roughly the same as last time, his Arete to add half his Kau rating to damage makes up for it. Even though the dragon has more health now, the Slayer only needs 8 hits to slay the dragon, a very possibile thing at this level if he burns through his entire willpower reserves.

This one is a toss up since the dragon is reduced to negative 1 dice. If spending willpower boosts him to 2 dice instead of 3, the dragon is likely going to get slain. If he is at 3 dice, the Slayer is favored.


Match 3 - Veteran
Dragon attack dice: -2
+ 9 Base attack
+ 3 Legacy bonus
- 6 Defense
- 8 (5-13) Size Penalty

Dragon Damage: +0
+4 Weapon
-4 Armor


===
Heuy attack dice: +0
+9 Base Attack
-9 Defense

Heuy Damage: +2
+3 weapon
-3 Armor
+2 Arete bonus

Match 3 - Conclusion:
This is the dragon’s worst nightmare.

The dragon’s damage from claws is negated entirely at this point, as the Platemail is simply too strong. Additionally, the dragon is potentially reduced to a single 1 dice even after spending willpower, again dependant on how you handle negative attack dice. He’s got to get a 10 successes to reasonably take out the Slayer.

Huey is even more favored than last time. Again, while his chance to hit is still 0 dice,his damage keeps increasing. Now at +2 damage and backed with a mighty sword, he only needs to score a 7 out of 10 hits to slay the dragon, assuming he spends 1 willpower every turn. He also has the option to spend for Rote action attacks, which can be major if he decides to dismember the dragon instead of killing him on the off-chance the dragon retreats.

Final Conclusions:

Slayers seem kind of unfavored early on, but then again, this is a starting slayer against a dragon with reasonable combat specialization and the Slayer being on par with the dragon himself. Had I not selected Eyes to boost Wing’s defense bonus, things would have likely gone better, with the Slayer being slightly favored.

As the game progresses, Huey gets more dangerous in the midgame. Even though the dragon gets more...everything.However, this is only because I took the effort to upgrade his mundane gear to match the dragon’s capabilities and because I deliberately ramped up Kau over Legacy dots. Had the Legacy dots been equal to Kau, the Slayer would not be as favored and be at a disadvantage.

Breath of the Inferno would have become much more valuable against a Slayer once they start bringing armor into this.

Yes, I know I put Brawl where Huey should have had Weaponry. It’s a mistake, but then again, this was technically a brawl.

This first test has proven a few insights to me:
-Ranking up Kau over Legacies is punishing when against a Slayer of roughly equal base stat. A part of me feels that Slayer effectiveness should also be determined by the Dragon’s Legacies.
-Gear is super important for a slayer. Without any gear to upgrade to, the Slayer will eventually reach a point where the dragon simply starts outgrowing whatever could damage him. Once you get to greatswords, the only thing left becomes chainsaws and for some archetypes that’s not practical. Perhaps magical gear at a certain point?
-Nothing stops a Dragon from just leveling Kau last since the Slayer’s lethality and frequency is based solely on the dragon’s Kau.
-Penalizing the dragon based on size difference: while kept the fight even is really… circumstantial and will affect different Heritages differently because of inherently different size growths. May need tweaking to affect all dragons equally. Could also stand to be a “Default” mechanic for slayers as the defense bonus is pretty essentially for anyone who is not One Shot, One Kill.
-Rote Action attack, while I thought was cruel at first proved absolutely useless in this fight. The only time it has value is in sneak attacks or when using firearms. Using it in melee was both too costly and inefficient even with all of the Willpower everyone has.

[Amechra]

Idea 1: Slayers ignore the attribute bonuses from Drakonos. Kinda clunky, but you should have both values recorded. This might be too harsh against the Dragon.

Idea 2: Slayers are the ones who get the Strength Enough equivalents; maybe just have it be a dice bonus, rather than an actual increase of their dot rating. Something like...

Fated [Trait]: The cycle of fate empowers Slayers so that they are a match for their draconic foes. Whenever a Slayer spends Willpower to enhance an [Attribute] roll, they receive a cumulative +1 bonus on all further rolls made with that [Attribute] for the remainder of the scene, to a maximum of 5 + half of their Kauchaomai. If they suffer a Dramatic Failure on the roll, the cumulative bonus increases by 1; a true "hero" pulls victory from the jaws of defeat.
Nine variants of this Arete exist, each associated with an Attribute; bonuses from different versions of Fated [Trait] overlap rather than stacking.

---

Side Note: The Slayer Arete that adds successes to rolls to convince people is... no. Bonus dice, sure, but bonus successes break the game*, especially when you're getting that many.

* Werewolves can do it, yes, but they are strictly limited as to how often they can do it.

[Xallace]

Speaking of Slayers we are currently looking into revising their powers sets. Right now we're discussing the idea of "anti-legacies;" thematically speaking, not powers that just up and negate a dragon's legacies (necessarily). The dragon says "I am strong," the Slayer says "You are weak." The dragon says "I am enduring," the Slayer says "You are temporary."

I am interested in seeing these powers grow as the dragon learns legacies but we haven't committed to any mechanics in particular yet.

Edit: As for new kinds of Garuda, I think it's worth further discussion. Could you elaborate on your vision for dark Garuda?

[Almarck]

I'll back the "power enough"thing Amercha suggests. Gives an option for dramatic fails to be useful. Sadly I do not see anyone using it for much noncombat stuffs.

I also like the idea of anti legacies for slayers since i feel current Arete rules are rather inconsistent with some being must haves while others are so situatuinal. The main problem with giving slayers direct debuffing counters to legacies is just making them about debuff is that it might prove inflexible and in a away too specific or messy in multislayer or dragon fights depending on how applying the debuff work.

I just had this idea for instead slayer legacies about also exoling or uplifting or glorifying humans or being themed after what amounts to a peasant revolt. In a sense denying the worthiness of dragons to inherit and rule over man. Though I am not sure if that is really practical.

---

Additionally if you are considering revising slayers should I hold off testing my slayer today? This one is long range fight involving gun play. Viability of a slayer attempting to shoot a dragon before the dragon can melee. Assuming slayer has no defense in melee.

[Xallace]

Additionally if you are considering revising slayers should I hold off testing my slayer today? This one is long range fight involving gun play. Viability of a slayer attempting to shoot a dragon before the dragon can melee. Assuming slayer has no defense in melee.

Probably for the best until we get some more abilities down.

I'll back the "power enough"thing Amercha suggests. Gives an option for dramatic fails to be useful. Sadly I do not see anyone using it for much noncombat stuffs.

I also like the idea of anti legacies for slayers since i feel current Arete rules are rather inconsistent with some being must haves while others are so situatuinal. The main problem with giving slayers direct debuffing counters to legacies is just making them about debuff is that it might prove inflexible and in a away too specific or messy in multislayer or dragon fights depending on how applying the debuff work.

I just had this idea for instead slayer legacies about also exoling or uplifting or glorifying humans or being themed after what amounts to a peasant revolt. In a sense denying the worthiness of dragons to inherit and rule over man. Though I am not sure if that is really practical.

Some of what we have so far acts as debuffs, but a lot of it is direct buffs for the Slayer or actions that they can take advantage of. They're really more thematic opposites than directly opposing any particular benefit granted by legacies (in most cases, anyway).

So for example, a dragon with Bones of the Mountain will Enkindle a Slayer who is much more adept at avoiding damage, while a dragon with Tongue of the Serpent spawns one that is very capable at unraveling your social circle.

[One Tin Soldier]

We have significantly buffed Breath of the Inferno. It is still relatively weak at low levels, but higher Kau now allows it to be more cost efficient, autofire is now optional and gives a die bonus (and shorter range than single-target), and Willpower can now effectively be sent to boost the diepool at any level of Kau. Also, Flame Lance has been rolled into the base power, to be replaced by a new auxiliary River of Flame, which makes the core power deal automatic lasting damage.

I'll back the "power enough"thing Amercha suggests. Gives an option for dramatic fails to be useful. Sadly I do not see anyone using it for much noncombat stuffs.

I also like the idea of anti legacies for slayers since i feel current Arete rules are rather inconsistent with some being must haves while others are so situatuinal. The main problem with giving slayers direct debuffing counters to legacies is just making them about debuff is that it might prove inflexible and in a away too specific or messy in multislayer or dragon fights depending on how applying the debuff work.

I just had this idea for instead slayer legacies about also exoling or uplifting or glorifying humans or being themed after what amounts to a peasant revolt. In a sense denying the worthiness of dragons to inherit and rule over man. Though I am not sure if that is really practical.

---

Additionally if you are considering revising slayers should I hold off testing my slayer today? This one is long range fight involving gun play. Viability of a slayer attempting to shoot a dragon before the dragon can melee. Assuming slayer has no defense in melee.

We have also begun overhauling the Slayer Arete system, as Xallace described a couple posts up. So it would at least be a good idea to use some of those powers, instead of the ones that were there previously. We have a number of these Arete there already, but will obviously need more to be filled in, so if anyone has ideas we'd be happy to hear them.

The Fated Attribute idea sounds interesting. I'll keep the idea "on hold" for now.

[Amechra]

Idea for an alternate Immortality of Lerna:

Immortality of Lerna - Core Benefits:
The dragon gains the ability to recover from wounds. By spending 1 Willpower point as a Reflexive action, enters a regenerative state for a number of turns equal to the dots in this legacy. On each turn they are in this state, they may perform one of the following as a Reflexive action:

• Heal two levels of Bashing damage.
• Heal one level of Lethal damage.
• Downgrade two levels of Lethal damage to Bashing.

In addition, the dragon gains +1 Drakonos size per dot.

Auxiliary Legacies:
Wounds Seal (•): The Hydra's natural healing rate is multiplied by one plus their dots in Immortality of Lerna. As a side benefit, injuries consisting of Bashing or Lethal damage never leave scars.
The Coils Eternal (•): Whenever the Hydra recovers Willpower, they receive the benefits of their regenerative state for one turn.

Crocodile Tears (••): The Hydra's wounds tend to look more severe than they actually are; as such, any roll they make that would take advantage of their injured appearance (such as feigning weakness or playing dead) benefits from 8-again.
The Masses of Serpentflesh (••): A Hydra's organs have become undifferentiated; a lost kidney or heart is hardly even a big deal. They gain general armor equal to their dots in Immortality of Lerna which only applies against Called Shots; this armor stacks with that granted by Hide of Iron, as well as that granted by Cut Off The Head.

Serpentine Health (•••): A Hydra adds their dots in Immortality of Lerna to their Health; additionally, they never get sick unless they are deliberately infected.
Skin-Shedding Rejuvenation (•••): The Hydra adds the following option to their regenerative state: Remove a Personal Tilt. Taking this option sheds skin around the wounded or lost extremity, revealing pale and healthy flesh beneath.

From a Single Scale (••••): A Hydra with this Auxiliary Legacy who suffers from Tilts inflicted by aggravated damage heals those Tilts when they heal the associated wound. In addition, they gain an additional option for their regenerative state: Spend one Willpower to heal one level of Aggravated Damage that wasn't inflicted by a Slayer.
Splinters to a Python (••••): Whenever the Hydra transforms into Anthropos, they downgrade any Lethal damage they may be suffering from to Bashing damage prior to losing their additional HLs. Rather than becoming life-threatening injuries, a scratch to the Dragon in Drakonos remains just that - a scratch.

Cut Off The Head (•••••): The Hydra cannot die unless their head is destroyed, regardless of whether or not their HLs are filled with Aggravated damage; a Dragon whose entire body except for their head has been destroyed takes the Destroyed Body Tilt. The Hydra's skull develops an impressive hardiness; it downgrades any damage it takes from a non-Slayer source by one step. A Slayer's attacks ignore the entirety of this Legacy; fate cannot be denied.
Ouroboros Swallows Itself (•••••): The Hydra's body devours itself forever and ever, easily reverting to the idealized form held in the Dragon's mind. The duration of their regenerative state increases to One Scene. As a side effect, the Hydra is entirely beyond aging in either form - their bodies revert to the prime of their youth, and they are entirely immune to even Supernatural effects that would cause their bodies to age.

Destroyed Body - Tilt
Your body has been entirely ruined; you can't perform any physical action that involves body parts other than your head, and your Defense is reduced to 0. Finally, taking this Tilt fills any Health Levels that are not already filled with Aggravated damage with Lethal damage.
Causing this Tilt: Severe bodily trauma, being paralyzed beneath the neck.
Removing this Tilt: Somehow heal (or regrow) your body; either way, removing this Tilt causes you to take the Leg Wrack and Arm Wrack Tilts on all applicable limbs (as well as Wing Wrack on all your wings if you have wings). These Tilts are considered to be Permanent unless you have access to extensive physical therapy (or supernatural healing).

---

I may have gone a little overboard (I am rather proud of the names, though); I'm iffy on the side benefit of Serpentine Health. I'm looking for it to be a more-or-less cosmetic benefit; you never get a cold or the flu, and you can handle diseased materials with your bare hands ("after all, I never get sick").

Taking Wounds Seal when you have Immortality of Lerna •••••, for example, means that you remove one Bashing after two-and-a-half minutes, one Lethal after eight hours, and one Aggravated after a day and four hours. Of course, you could take Ouroboros Swallows Itself and heal to the tune of one Lethal every three seconds for a Scene.

[Xallace]

Okay Amechra, I like that a lot. If Soldier agrees I think we can just port that in.

[Almarck]

On the note of tilts. Do we need to modify tilts so that more damage has to be done to cause them based on dragon size even when the dragon's stamina is relatively low. I ask this because a dragon that is really focused into size might stand a real chance of getting dismembered by a knife despite being size 20. Then again most people will run Hide of Iron since it's so good.

[One Tin Soldier]

Okay Amechra, I like that a lot. If Soldier agrees I think we can just port that in.

I like it.

On the note of tilts. Do we need to modify tilts so that more damage has to be done to cause them based on dragon size even when the dragon's stamina is relatively low. I ask this because a dragon that is really focused into size might stand a real chance of getting dismembered by a knife despite being size 20. Then again most people will run Hide of Iron since it's so good.

Possibly, though then you would run into the risk of it being too hard to inflict those Tilts.
Similarly, I've been considering expanding the range on wound penalties based on total Health. So a dragon with, say, 16 health might have 2 boxes of each level of wound penalties, instead of 1.

[Almarck]

I like it.



Possibly, though then you would run into the risk of it being too hard to inflict those Tilts.
Similarly, I've been considering expanding the range on wound penalties based on total Health. So a dragon with, say, 16 health might have 2 boxes of each level of wound penalties, instead of 1.

How about Kau at certain points adds increased tilt resistance. Like say at kau 3 your stamina is treated as being 1 higher for determining tilts. And it increases but slowly.

[One Tin Soldier]

So here's a question for you all. Part of the fluff we wrote up for dragons says that they heal more completely than humans whenever they're injured. (Think the way wizards heal in Dresden Files.) So the question is: should dragons by default be able to heal Tilts caused by Agg damage? Considering that Slayers are something that dragons will be encountering reasonably often, I would hate to take away a dragon's ability to fly forever just because a Slayer shot her wing one time. On the other hand, saying that they all are capable of doing things like regrowing limbs might steal the Hydrae's thunder.

One possible solution I thought of would be to make the Tilts permanent as usual, but allow the dragon to spend an Experience to remove it once the damage has healed, much like rebuying a lost Health dot.
It would also serve to make purchasing auxiliaries like Sight to the Blind or Skin-Shedding Rejuvenation more appealing.

EDIT: Incidentally, dragons already don't scar unless they want to, so that part of Wounds Seal is redundant.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think that's a good solution, XP to buy off tilts sounds fair to me.

[Amechra]

Where does it say that they don't scar? I missed that (it doesn't matter if you remove it, anyways; just a bit of color.)

As for allowing them to heal amputation... I'd say go for it; Hydra would still be superior thanks to stuff like Skin-Shedding Rejuvenation and From a Single Scale (whose core benefit is being able to heal Aggravated damage really quickly, not the ability to heal from Permanent Tilts.)

EDIT: I noticed a mistake in my write-up of The Masses of Serpentflesh; Cut Off The Head doesn't give any armor, so it's kinda pointless to talk about how The Masses of Serpentflesh stacks with that.

---

As for Slayers... I think a good direction to go with their Arete options is making their tools magical. Not in the sense of giving them a +1 Flaming Longsword, just that their Arete improves their equipment. Oh, and I would count social connections as "tools" in this case.

A Slayer with Hide-Shredding Arete would improve their weapon's Armor Piercing quality by the number of dots the attacked Dragon has in Hide of Iron. A Slayer with Storm-Weathering Arete would improve their armor's general armor rating by the attacking Dragon's dots in Bones of the Mountain. A Slayer with the Final Death Arete would cause all damage dealt by their weapons to be Resistant, coincidentally screwing over Hydras.

And so on and so forth - maybe not so direct, but a similar idea.

I'd say that Slayers would get the Arete "corresponding" to their enkindling Dragon's unique Legacy, and then two others of their choice.

I think this would be a good direction to go with, in addition to having some Arete that represent Fate smiling on the Slayer, simply because tool-use is how humans deal with big problems. And a Dragon is nothing if not a big problem.

I'd also say nothing flashy; you aren't throwing around lightning bolts, you're killing a Dragon.

If you want me to, I can work up a mock-up.

[Almarck]

So here's a question for you all. Part of the fluff we wrote up for dragons says that they heal more completely than humans whenever they're injured. (Think the way wizards heal in Dresden Files.) So the question is: should dragons by default be able to heal Tilts caused by Agg damage? Considering that Slayers are something that dragons will be encountering reasonably often, I would hate to take away a dragon's ability to fly forever just because a Slayer shot her wing one time. On the other hand, saying that they all are capable of doing things like regrowing limbs might steal the Hydrae's thunder.

One possible solution I thought of would be to make the Tilts permanent as usual, but allow the dragon to spend an Experience to remove it once the damage has healed, much like rebuying a lost Health dot.
It would also serve to make purchasing auxiliaries like Sight to the Blind or Skin-Shedding Rejuvenation more appealing.

EDIT: Incidentally, dragons already don't scar unless they want to, so that part of Wounds Seal is redundant.

I dunno. I would say that to allow wingless lung dragons Wings prossibly regrow on their own without in vestibule because you do need to spend exp to get those in the first place or say that it's one part natural flight another party supernatural flight. And levitatuin is a thing for some drsgons. But that's just me.

Personally I think it's way too crippling to have an exp buy off. The big threee supernatural have relatively easy ways to remove Agg damage tilts: 5 vitae for each Agg a vamp has to heal, 4 days passively for a werewolf per each Agg point with free limb heal, mages and healing magic need I say more?

More to the point,do you feel dragons should fear being mained? Because that question should be what determine healing rates. Part of the reason I bring this up is because reading the werewolf book one,gets the idea that the reason they heal everything is because things like limb loss would get in the way of being an "unstopable perfect predator". Now it's impossible to play a "crippled" werewolf for more than a month. Thus I reiterate does allowing limb loss to stick clash with dragons being a perfected idealized self?

Perhaps the limb loss recovers in Drakonos but not in Anthropos?
Or maybe limbs are fully healed all the time once the damage ticks down but hydra have the advantage of forcing the wound to heal whole others need to wait. Seriously o do think it would be fair to have limb loss be recovery by not spending exp because then hydra would have an unfair advantage as they would not need to spend exp to recover lost limbs after fighting a slayer.

[One Tin Soldier]

Where does it say that they don't scar? I missed that (it doesn't matter if you remove it, anyways; just a bit of color.)

As for allowing them to heal amputation... I'd say go for it; Hydra would still be superior thanks to stuff like Skin-Shedding Rejuvenation and From a Single Scale (whose core benefit is being able to heal Aggravated damage really quickly, not the ability to heal from Permanent Tilts.)

EDIT: I noticed a mistake in my write-up of The Masses of Serpentflesh; Cut Off The Head doesn't give any armor, so it's kinda pointless to talk about how The Masses of Serpentflesh stacks with that.

Right now it's in the Inheritance section, right below where it talks about how Inheritance can "cure" disabilities. Though I think that some or all of it should be moved to the Draconic Body section for easy reference.

As for Slayers... I think a good direction to go with their Arete options is making their tools magical. Not in the sense of giving them a +1 Flaming Longsword, just that their Arete improves their equipment. Oh, and I would count social connections as "tools" in this case.

A Slayer with Hide-Shredding Arete would improve their weapon's Armor Piercing quality by the number of dots the attacked Dragon has in Hide of Iron. A Slayer with Storm-Weathering Arete would improve their armor's general armor rating by the attacking Dragon's dots in Bones of the Mountain. A Slayer with the Final Death Arete would cause all damage dealt by their weapons to be Resistant, coincidentally screwing over Hydras.

And so on and so forth - maybe not so direct, but a similar idea.

I'd say that Slayers would get the Arete "corresponding" to their enkindling Dragon's unique Legacy, and then two others of their choice.

I think this would be a good direction to go with, in addition to having some Arete that represent Fate smiling on the Slayer, simply because tool-use is how humans deal with big problems. And a Dragon is nothing if not a big problem.

I'd also say nothing flashy; you aren't throwing around lightning bolts, you're killing a Dragon.

If you want me to, I can work up a mock-up.

I really like the idea of Unique Arete, as a mechanical representation of "slayer type." It lends quite a bit more oomph to the concept.

EDIT:
Ever since I came up with the Wing Wrack Tilt, I've been considering removing the mentions of wingless flight, since it would be a strict mechanical advantage for what should just be a fluff thing.
And the idea behind "dragons heal completely" is related to their core concept as creatures of identity. Their bodies are a direct reflection of their minds, so as long as they don't regard the damage as permanent, then it isn't.
Of course, losing a limb outright could be traumatic enough to adjust even a dragon's sense of identity, but not all targeted Agg damage is necessarily removing the limb outright.

[Almarck]

Of course, removing wingless flight does mean the characters cannot replicate wingless levitating dragons common in the East. Perhaps as a resolution, "Wing-Wrack" does not neccesarily mean actual wings all the time. In the case of lung dragons, they develop what can be more or less be described as a magical internal flight bladder that is obvious enough to be targetted and "wing wrack" for them is that bladder getting ruptured. The difference then becomes mostly fluff.


Also, I seem to have a habit of posting something like seconds before you post your reply. Anyways, yeah, I'll go with Amercha's ruling on the mattter since I did not see it when I posted. Let all dragons heal limb loss, hydrae just do it better. As for the "trauma changes idenity" arguement, I say burning willpower points might be neccesary in some cases in a sense of "forced rejection" or "forced reinvention" would be cool.

[Amechra]

For the Hunger of Nidhogg:

Gullet of the Fire-Eater (•)
The Wyvern gains general armor equal to their dots in Hunger of Nidhogg; this armor lines the inside of their gullet and stomach, and does nothing to protect the outside of their body. The general armor from this Auxiliary Legacy stacks with the armor granted by that Hide of Iron.

Swallowing the Oceans (••••)
The Wyvern can unhinge their jaws, allowing them to swallow people and objects that seem far too large to be consumed in one gulp. Whenever the Wyvern makes a successful attack with their bite against a character or object whose Size is equal to or less than their Kauchaomai + Hunger of Nidhogg, they may reflexively spend one Willpower to give their target the Swallowed Whole Tilt.

Devouring the Sun (•••••)
The Wyvern doesn't simply devour flesh and glass; it consumes hope, dines upon light, and greedily slurps up spirits. Whenever they make a successful attack with their bite, they may spend one Willpower to give their target the Soulless condition. If the target already has the Soulless condition, they instead immediately suffer a Breaking Point as if they had satisfied their Vice. If the target lacks an Integrity equivalent entirely (or is otherwise not subject to the Soulless condition), this attack instead deals Aggravated damage, which cannot be downgraded.

Swallowed Whole - Tilt
You've been swallowed whole by some titanic monster... this is not a very good place to be. You are considered to be in a level 4 Extreme Environment, cannot move beyond the boundaries of the stomach, and cannot attack anything other than the insides of the stomach and the stomach walls themselves.
Causing this Tilt: Unless you're several times your opponent's size, you aren't going to be inflicting this Tilt.
Removing this Tilt: You can cut yourself out of the creature's stomach by inflicting Lethal damage equal to their Stamina or one Aggravated damage. Otherwise, leave the monster's stomach through the... natural process.

[One Tin Soldier]

Thanks for the input, guys. Once Xallace is available again, I'll get his opinion on which option to go with.

For the Hunger of Nidhogg:

Gullet of the Fire-Eater (•)
The Wyvern gains general armor equal to their dots in Hunger of Nidhogg; this armor lines the inside of their gullet and stomach, and does nothing to protect the outside of their body. The general armor from this Auxiliary Legacy stacks with the armor granted by that Hide of Iron.

Swallowing the Oceans (••••)
The Wyvern can unhinge their jaws, allowing them to swallow people and objects that seem far too large to be consumed in one gulp. Whenever the Wyvern makes a successful attack with their bite against a character or object whose Size is equal to or less than their Kauchaomai + Hunger of Nidhogg, they may reflexively spend one Willpower to give their target the Swallowed Whole Tilt.

Devouring the Sun (•••••)
The Wyvern doesn't simply devour flesh and glass; it consumes hope, dines upon light, and greedily slurps up spirits. Whenever they make a successful attack with their bite, they may spend one Willpower to give their target the Soulless condition. If the target already has the Soulless condition, they instead immediately suffer a Breaking Point as if they had satisfied their Vice. If the target lacks an Integrity equivalent entirely (or is otherwise not subject to the Soulless condition), this attack instead deals Aggravated damage, which cannot be downgraded.

Swallowed Whole - Tilt
You've been swallowed whole by some titanic monster... this is not a very good place to be. You are considered to be in a level 4 Extreme Environment, cannot move beyond the boundaries of the stomach, and cannot attack anything other than the insides of the stomach and the stomach walls themselves.
Causing this Tilt: Unless you're several times your opponent's size, you aren't going to be inflicting this Tilt.
Removing this Tilt: You can cut yourself out of the creature's stomach by inflicting Lethal damage equal to their Stamina or one Aggravated damage. Otherwise, leave the monster's stomach through the... natural process.

I really like the 4 and 5 dot auxiliaries, I'll add them in. The 1 dot ability has promise, I think, but I don't think it does quite enough on its own.

[Almarck]

Any word on the Slayer and regeneration undaptes?

I've also been wondering, maybe it would be a good idea to have different names for each dynasty. By this I mean, there should really be a secondary name that's easier to remember... and speak. While each Dynasty has its official, regal name, they also gain a subtitle or secondary name that is easier to hold onto.





Additionally, on the antagonists, well, I've been noticing a trend at least in the themes of them all.


-Slayers: "Our Mistakes"
-Renegade Dynasties : "Us" but our enemies
-Garuda: Similar, but clearly different to "us"
-Knights: Looters, theives, and pillages


With this in mind, I've actually been wondering, what faction would be the "alien other" or what about the "beastial foe" idea. I guess technically, the Renegade Dynasties cover that niche, but I was thinking on more of a primal level. Perhaps creatures that hunt and eat dragons like as a form of Eldritch Mega Predator, but maybe that's too earthly. Garuda being more spirit like probably act in that manner, but they are still, atleast currently very similar to the point that they might be just a different race that functions very similarly to dragonkind.
Also in the same vein, I've been wondering if there's a default antagonist dragons have to actively face. Slayers are the side effect of existing, not something dragons can actively challenge.

[One Tin Soldier]

I've written up a Size Considerations sidebar under The Draconic Body. All of the specific numbers I gave, however, were just eyeballed. I'd appreciate a second look to see if they make sense.

Any word on the Slayer and regeneration updates?

We've been putting whatever we have into the doc. Nothing super-new on either front.

I've also been wondering, maybe it would be a good idea to have different names for each dynasty. By this I mean, there should really be a secondary name that's easier to remember... and speak. While each Dynasty has its official, regal name, they also gain a subtitle or secondary name that is easier to hold onto.

Each Dynasty already has two alternate names. For example, the Xiuhcoatl are also known as the Divine Fangs and the Sun-Makers.

Additionally, on the antagonists, well, I've been noticing a trend at least in the themes of them all.


-Slayers: "Our Mistakes"
-Renegade Dynasties : "Us" but our enemies
-Garuda: Similar, but clearly different to "us"
-Knights: Looters, theives, and pillages


With this in mind, I've actually been wondering, what faction would be the "alien other" or what about the "beastial foe" idea. I guess technically, the Renegade Dynasties cover that niche, but I was thinking on more of a primal level. Perhaps creatures that hunt and eat dragons like as a form of Eldritch Mega Predator, but maybe that's too earthly. Garuda being more spirit like probably act in that manner, but they are still, atleast currently very similar to the point that they might be just a different race that functions very similarly to dragonkind.
Also in the same vein, I've been wondering if there's a default antagonist dragons have to actively face. Slayers are the side effect of existing, not something dragons can actively challenge.

Personally, I had always envisioned the Garuda as the "alien other" foe that dragons face. And we are considering using the Ephemeral Being rules for them, as someone here suggested.

As for "active antagonists", that's most likely to be other Heirs, both of the NPC and PC dynasties. Within the PC dynasties, however, such conflicts are more likely to be social rather than straight-up physical wars.
See, like werewolves, pretty much all dragons can be pretty good in a fight. Unlike werewolves, however, they cannot universally easily recover from the consequences of those fights. Sure, they'll survive, but only a Hydra or Zaltys is likely to be up and about the next morning. Plus, dragons have a bit more of a general community than a lot of other supernats. Which doesn't prevent cliques and local factions from forming, of course, but its a bit more likely that one of your buddies is friends with the person you want to screw over. So conflicts tend to be of the non-lethal variety, unless there's something really big at stake. So not all that different from regular humans.
When we get around to writing up the Storyteller section, we plan to write up a whole section on inter-dynastic conflict. Which might wind up completely changing what I've written here, but as long as it helps make for good stories I'm fine with that. As long as whatever we write won't make multiple-dynasty clutches unplayable. (Drama and disagreement is fine, automatic enemies not so much)

[Almarck]

I've written up a Size Considerations sidebar under The Draconic Body. All of the specific numbers I gave, however, were just eyeballed. I'd appreciate a second look to see if they make sense.

We've been putting whatever we have into the doc. Nothing super-new on either front.

The numbers make some sense, yeah. You did not however address increased speed since each "Step" is easier to take the bigger you get.


I do think that the "wound penalties" should only count health gained by size increase though, since it's not hard for other splats to have lots of health via small size increases and loads of stamina. May wish to address that or specify it's Heir Specific, but again just me.

Each Dynasty already has two alternate names. For example, the Xiuhcoatl are also known as the Divine Fangs and the Sun-Makers.

Okay, I must have missed that. So retracting that.



[QUOTE]Enemies *snip*/QUOTE]

Gotcha. The Garuda actually strike me as too... similar to be eldritch, though that might in itself be a sort of "Eldritch". I believe it was me that recomend using spirit mechanics somewhere in Page 3.

You know, the way you describe things, it's almost like dragons act like the Greek Gods did and let their followers do all the fighting. Granted, dragons do not seem to have cults.

[One Tin Soldier]

The numbers make some sense, yeah. You did not however address increased speed since each "Step" is easier to take the bigger you get.


I do think that the "wound penalties" should only count health gained by size increase though, since it's not hard for other splats to have lots of health via small size increases and loads of stamina. May wish to address that or specify it's Heir Specific, but again just me.

You're right, increased Speed would make sense. I'll include it.

As for the health thing, I might draft up a few dragons with varying size and stamina, and apply some different variations of the wound penalties stuff. See which ones work as intended, and see which ones break.

EDIT: If anyone else can think of reasonable game effects for increased Size, let me know.

[Xallace]

I would actually leave out increased speed. Speed can be boosted though Bones/Wings acquisition if you want a faster dragon (especially the one auxiliary from Wings that adds 3 speed per dot). Not to mention the fact that the slow, lumbering, giant dragon is pretty classic.