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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
    There is nothing wrong with pre-orders and I fear the "lesson learned" is the wrong one.

    The problem here are not the issues with the products that got delayed but with the communication about that problem. We all understand we are dealing with small companies here and that issues can happen. What cannot happen is there's no openness about it because we are dealing with small companies that do not have a wide, wide circle of customers but customers who are tied to two websites (the shop and this one).

    The lessons learned should be a) do not promise optimistic dates and b) communicate early if there is stuff instead of waiting week after week. That works if everything works out but it bites your behind if some other delay happens.

    That said: I'd preorder again. Simply because I do know we are dealing with a small business which gets helped by the money to get the stuff going that I like.
    Preorders are probably the thing to get War and XPs back in print. If I had not already in my shelf, I'd preorder it (and pay for it) should that become an option.

    Why would I preorder again? Because I already bought six books from Rich Burlew and he never ran away with my money without giving me what I paid for. That's what "past experience" is doing in my head and therefore it is as important as it is - and it is why I do not get how all this "let's not tell people anything" here went how it went.

    Now that we got the update this thread here is probably somewhat pointless.
    This is a quote from the "SS&DT update?" thread on the Order of the Stick Comic sub-forum which is in response to the previous post. I obviously can't speak for others, but this adequately describes what I think. Despite the delays and setbacks I would also absolutely pre-order one of Rich's books again. I love this series as do a lot of people and we want to support Rich. If pre-ordering helps alleviate some of the weight of whatever up-front cost there is to print a book then I'm all the more for it.

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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    I learned an important lesson about pre-orders, and we'll probably not be doing them again anytime soon.
    Please allow pre-orders on future products, I have no issues with the fact that unplaned difficulties happened with the printing/distributing/delivery of this product. But as others have pointed out when this does happen a quick note as soon as it is apparent that the deadline will be missed would have solved most of the complaints.
    If a thread can be set up this way; perhaps a locked/stickied thread that only you can post in so that no flames get posted.
    I ordered two copies of this book for me and a friend and I plan to pre-order any future books just to ensure that I don't miss out. In the past I have waited till books from other publishers have been printed to order and then wound up having to buy them from e-bay at twice the price because it was too late.
    "One useless man is called a disgrace, two are called a law firm and three or more become a congress."
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    So, wait, things are delayed again, but do we have a new expected ship date for the books?
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    I can't find the one with the "cartoon butt," though.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    @Apegamer

    You might want to read this thread as well:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204251

    Read the entire thread. And then please clean up your (company, nothing against your person!) mess. I like OotS too much to see it takes damage from unnecessary, mind-boggling botches as this. This project here (self publishing of an awesome comic) is a very cool thing that I'd like to see working out.

    ---

    And when all this is done in a few weeks or months, I strongly suggest (but it's totally your business to drill holes in your own boat) you people all sit down in a silent moment and really reconsider your PR strategy in regard to delays, communication, and checking out the official forums of your main (and basically only?) customer.

    edit: Oh, and the "Hey, what's up with the orders?" was a lingering issue before you all left to the convention.
    Last edited by Ancalagon; 2011-06-27 at 10:51 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    If there's one lesson I would ask ApeGamer and Ookadook to take from this fiasco, it would be the importance of timely communication with customers.

    I can wait quite a long time; I understand that we're dealing with small companies who have too much to do and too little time to do it. Just a one paragraph, or even one sentence, update about once a week or so on the status would go far towards quelling speculation and helping us be patient.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Just a hint that will show you the massive amount of neglect that play a role here (put that on your list to talk about): Even with all the fuzz going on for... I have to say... months...

    This link still lists "May 2011" as release date. It also still says "We want to see how many preorders we get to determine how many we need to print."
    In all honesty... but ... d'oh?
    http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTSDr.html

    Disclaimer:
    I'm as honest and open here as I am not because I want to mock you or something or because I want to kick a fallen man but I honestly want you to learn from this and be made aware of all the things one should be aware of if one is trying to run a professional business.

    One could call this nitpicking but personally I really do not think this are "unimportant details". Especially as it, as I think, is actually symptom for the actual cause. What is that cause? That's really not my (or anyone but yours) judgment to make.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    If there's one lesson I would ask ApeGamer and Ookadook to take from this fiasco, it would be the importance of timely communication with customers.

    I can wait quite a long time; I understand that we're dealing with small companies who have too much to do and too little time to do it. Just a one paragraph, or even one sentence, update about once a week or so on the status would go far towards quelling speculation and helping us be patient.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    This. I get the feeling that we're dealing with a company that has very limited resources, and at the very least, the company seems intent on getting one thing right above all else: The Product. Given that, I'm okay waiting.

    If they're having trouble with manufacturing and printers, all we can really do is be patient. I work in purchasing, specifically in printing, and delays are almost universally the result of the printing companies, rather than the distributors...and usually then the problems tend to be logistics related (press malfunctions, card stock coming in late etc).

    This is the reality of working without a buffer, and without having the weight of a larger corporation to throw around. That being said, I have to advocate in favor of patience. And, really...updating the website as developments occur. That's a business decision to make though. Answering individual e-mails probably takes more time than updating the website, but I don't have the experience to speak to that.

    As long as the company keeps answering my e-mails and readily communicating (which they've done a great job at in my experience) then I've got no gripes.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Another lesson to learn: Don't lock threads with valid concerns. They did it again. In all honesty and without much friendlyness left: now I am getting angry about all this.

    It feels a bit like getting punched in the stomach.

    edit: I pondered it a bit. I actually am not getting angry, I am it.
    Last edited by Ancalagon; 2011-06-28 at 02:26 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
    Another lesson to learn: Don't lock threads with valid concerns. They did it again. In all honesty and without much friendlyness left: now I am getting angry about all this.

    It feels a bit like getting punched in the stomach.

    edit: I pondered it a bit. I actually am not getting angry, I am it.
    I concur with a big +1. It's almost the grown up equivalent of "I don't like what I am hearing, so I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears". I mean really, they locked one of 2 new threads, saying "go look at the other thread". And now, they have "MOVED" the other thread, so all you get is "you are not authorized to look at this" messages. Really, people?

    The thing that REALLY bothers me is the fact that people like FujinAkari, (and the perception that GitP/Oook) seem think we are all childish complainers who are upset that the stuff we ordered is late.

    Some small quantity of people are upset its late.

    The large majority are Disappointed the stuff is late, but understand that in real life, things happen to cause delays. And we've all seen it, in popular books, movies, video game releases, etc ad nauseum.

    The large majority are upset BECAUSE there is the perception that it's beyond/beneath GitP/Oook's time and energy to simply post a 2-3 line "Product Update" post on their respective websites saying "We have had some unavoidable delays on our latest products that have pushed back delivery dates - when we have some solid info or product in hand to ship, we will send it out. In the meantime, we will try to keep everyone updated every couple of weeks".

    It shouldn't take almost one hundred people (or more!) spamming K.Brusky's email box with "Where are my book?" questions to get him to post a 2 line update on his Oook website - that should have happened WAY sooner.

    And we still have no info on the GitP site.

    Frankly, it's a PR disaster and a textbook case in most business schools of how NOT to do PR for a small business. And if GitP/Oook are going by the premise of "once they get their stuff, this will all blow over", they may be in for a bit of a rude surprise.....

  10. - Top - End - #190
    APE Games in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    This is the topic that I normally post to. Which one has been closed?

    I'm planning to send out a bulk email later today with release dates as best we know them today, for both the book and the games.

    I'll also post that information here, and on the Ookoodook.com home page.

    By the way, I don't have access to the GiantITP news page, so any posts that I do will be to one of these locations, unless someone can point me to a better forum.
    Owner of APE Games.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    This is the topic that I normally post to. Which one has been closed?

    I'm planning to send out a bulk email later today with release dates as best we know them today, for both the book and the games.

    I'll also post that information here, and on the Ookoodook.com home page.

    By the way, I don't have access to the GiantITP news page, so any posts that I do will be to one of these locations, unless someone can point me to a better forum.
    Thank you, APEGamer.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.

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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    I'm planning to send out a bulk email later today with release dates as best we know them today, for both the book and the games.
    Thank you.

    This is the sort of information that people have been clamoring for (and IMHO, rightfully so), and I look forward to reading this update with interest.

    Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    This is the topic that I normally post to. Which one has been closed?
    2 different topics were opened in the OotS forum (of which this is a sub-forum). There was some small amount of heated-ness involved from a few parties but, by and large, it was a civil discourse which is why Ancalagon & I find their closing to be disappointing.

    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    I'm planning to send out a bulk email later today with release dates as best we know them today, for both the book and the games.

    I'll also post that information here, and on the Ookoodook.com home page.

    By the way, I don't have access to the GiantITP news page, so any posts that I do will be to one of these locations, unless someone can point me to a better forum.
    Thanks for the info AG. Your website is a perfectly fine forum for posting this information. Perhaps if GiantITP has a person who's title is "Web Site Manager", you could email this information to that person so they could post it up on their own News page - that would be great.

    Or, at the least, let that person know when you are posting up your info on the Oook.site, so they can put a message on their News page of "Ape Games has new information - here's the link."

    And the Bulk Email is a very nice "customer service" touch. I look forward to reading mine in the near future.

    Thanks again!

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    I want to add my thanks for your concern, Apegamer. I would like to see more updates on GitP's news site, but I certainly understand that since you don't run GitP, that's not something you can do. I'm going to check my email right now.

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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    {{scrubbed}}
    Last edited by Mark Hall; 2011-06-29 at 09:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Please see the new topic here:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...2#post11310792

    for future book/game updates.

    And please post friendly - I'd like to continue using that topic for posting updates, but cannot if it gets locked down.
    Owner of APE Games.

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    smile Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    I have yet to receive a confirmation tracking code. With one of your staff recently in the hospital, and your mailbox filling up with emails, I figure'd I'd drop a line here. I have 2 books on pre-order and the expansion, all separate orders. #7247, 7249, and 10429. Thank you.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    We're back to full staff and people should receive notices within the next 4-5 days.
    Owner of APE Games.

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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Any update regarding the OOTS expansion ?

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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    I have to say I'm really kind of disgusted with Ookoodook. I went in and figured the price of ordering the book by itself and the game by itself.
    Total savings for ordering together vs ordering separately? : $1.00

    Considering I pre-ordered both 4 months ago, and paid for shipping at the time (premium ship... because I need it in 3 days after its been on pre-order for 4 months, vs 5 days) and Ookoodook has had my money for that long, I figure the interest alone pretty much covers separate shipping costs of sending them separately.

    What if the game is delayed again? (damaged in shipping, another printer error, etc) Will you be holding our other shipments until the error is corrected?


    This is NOT standard practice--
    If Ookoodook doesn't have the 'bandwidth' (corp speak for "We don't want to hire enough people to meet our business obligations.) they need to actually increase staffing.
    Last edited by TheRiov; 2011-08-17 at 02:29 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRiov View Post

    This is NOT standard practice--
    If Ookoodook doesn't have the 'bandwidth' (corp speak for "We don't want to hire enough people to meet our business obligations.) they need to actually increase staffing.
    Sorry for the inconvenience. Actually, even the 800 lb gorilla of shipping Amazon will charge you extra for shipping items separately. Our added cost will be $5 per item to ship them to you separately, and trust me - on a $15-$20 item we're not making money if we do that for everyone. There may be some shipping combinations where the increases cost is less than that, but you get the idea.

    If you want the books shipped right away, the best thing would be to cancel your order and place separate orders for each product. Then products will ship as they're available. If you'd like to do that, email info@apegames.com and we'll take care of it.

    The product pages on Ookoodook specifically say in bold red text that your order will ship when all products are available.

    We had 6 people in the warehouse filling pre-orders, so we don't have a bandwidth problem, either.
    Owner of APE Games.

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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    From the email we received:

    Quote Originally Posted by Email received 8/16
    You ordered the OOTS game or expansion. These orders will ship when the games arrive in our warehouse in 2-3 weeks. We can no longer split orders out and send your books separate. We simply don't have the bandwidth to do this."

    Uh huh. Which is it?

    I guess I'm confused. When I put in an order for both together:

    Subtotal $76.90
    Shipping $16.90
    Tax $0.00
    Total $93.80

    When I put in the game alone:

    Subtotal $54.95
    Shipping $11.95
    Tax $0.00
    Total $66.90


    When I put in the Book alone:
    Subtotal $21.95
    Shipping $5.95
    Tax $0.00
    Total $27.90

    Now, if your math is correct, the total for them separately should be ~10 dollars more? So I should see something like a 5$ savings on both? Yet 27.90+66.90=$94.80. Even if this statement meant to imply that each additional item added 5$ to your cost to ship if it was done separately the math STILL doesn't add up. Net difference: $1.00.


    Your own emails+Your board statements+your own website are completely inconsistant.

    I FULLY understand mechanical delays, accidents, both in printing and the physical injuries of personnel. All those I am quite happy to forgive. c'est la vie.

    This on the other hand, is bordering on outright lying to your customer base.

    Furthermore, you're penalizing the customers who order MORE from you? How does that work? Wouldn't you want to better serve your better customers?
    Last edited by TheRiov; 2011-08-18 at 02:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    And just to clarify, when you preorder from Amazon, if there IS a delay in production they'll go ahead and ship the rest of the pre-order.

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Point taken about the postage. That combination of products bumps shipping up so flat rate shipping cannot be used. We can take a look at outstanding orders and see which it makes sense to ship separately.

    Point not taken about lack of bandwidth. We have many thousands of orders, and that manpower is spent getting those orders out the door.

    I'd also suggest that you be more civil on the forums. If you would like to privately email me with your issues, then feel free to vent at will.
    Owner of APE Games.

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    confused Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Okay. I made three separate orders. One book as a gift. One book for myself. One expansion for myself. All pre-orders. I was charged shipping and handling three separate times. The books came together. That means I was double-dipped for shipping and handling for the books. I've sent an e-mail requesting a refund. I did not mind paying extra for the shipping when they were coming in separate packaging. USPS has flat rate shipping for packages and two books weigh 26.2 oz. That's 5.8 oz. less than a needed upgrade in flat rate.
    I'm awaiting a reply from the shipping manager, but I wanted others to see this. If you pay for something, it should be delivered as ordered, not however the retailer likes. I'm expecting a refund of $5.95 U.S. dollars, and will let you guys know how it works out. If my posts are deleted again, I'll just repost. I hate to escalate things, but my understanding has worn away, and I just want what is right. I'm not being mean or vindictive, but I paid in good faith, and I'd really just like what is owed to me.

    -Originally posted 4:57 pm Eastern time

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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    Point taken about the postage. That combination of products bumps shipping up so flat rate shipping cannot be used. We can take a look at outstanding orders and see which it makes sense to ship separately.

    Point not taken about lack of bandwidth. We have many thousands of orders, and that manpower is spent getting those orders out the door.

    I'd also suggest that you be more civil on the forums. If you would like to privately email me with your issues, then feel free to vent at will.
    And I'd say that was pretty civil. Riov didn't swear, curse your lineage, or make threats. He concisely pointed out glaring contradictory statements. I understand that this is your livelihood, and that you're feeling stressed over the crunch here. Nobody likes to feel persecuted. Right now though, he's upset, and he vented responsibly. Sometimes, it's better to take your deserved lumps in silence, instead of damaging an already perceived tarnished reputation.

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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpain View Post
    Okay. I made three separate orders. One book as a gift. One book for myself. One expansion for myself. All pre-orders. I was charged shipping and handling three separate times. The books came together. That means I was double-dipped for shipping and handling for the books. I've sent an e-mail requesting a refund. I did not mind paying extra for the shipping when they were coming in separate packaging. USPS has flat rate shipping for packages and two books weigh 26.2 oz. That's 5.8 oz. less than a needed upgrade in flat rate.
    I'm awaiting a reply from the shipping manager, but I wanted others to see this. If you pay for something, it should be delivered as ordered, not however the retailer likes. I'm expecting a refund of $5.95 U.S. dollars, and will let you guys know how it works out. If my posts are deleted again, I'll just repost. I hate to escalate things, but my understanding has worn away, and I just want what is right. I'm not being mean or vindictive, but I paid in good faith, and I'd really just like what is owed to me.

    -Originally posted 4:57 pm Eastern time
    Yes, it's our policy to refund shipping if we combine orders. If you already mailed ship.manager@ookoodook.com, then it should be in the pipeline to be refunded.

    We also refund shipping if we find that we can ship orders for less than USPS charged when they placed the order (if the refund is >= $5). This normally happens for international orders.
    Owner of APE Games.

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    furious Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    Yes, it's our policy to refund shipping if we combine orders. If you already mailed ship.manager@ookoodook.com, then it should be in the pipeline to be refunded.

    We also refund shipping if we find that we can ship orders for less than USPS charged when they placed the order (if the refund is >= $5). This normally happens for international orders.
    Yup, here we go...Again. Ok Just got another email from Ookoodook. This time claiming that they just switched my combined book and expansion order with my just plain book order. That, Tina Baumgarter claims, is why I'm not entitled to a refund.


    I did not have a single combined order. Not one. Nope. Nuh-uh. Absolutely not. Nada. I have three separate order numbers, and paid shipping and handling three separate times. I have kept my e-mails as proof, as I always do when ordering online. I was sent an e-mail inquiring whether I'd meant to order two books. Orders 7247 and 10429. I also ordered the expansion, 7249. I ordered the book and game separately for myself, and then ordered another book for my best bud. I ordered them separately so that I'd receive the books in May, and the game in July.


    Then came the delays.


    Now, I'm restating my case over and over trying to get back money that I was double dipped for because someone sought to make an easy $5.95 by combining two of the orders and pocketing the difference.


    If, and I mean a really big friggin' if, I order anything else from them, I will continue to watch their practices like a starving man eyes a crusty piece of bread that's just out of reach.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    With the threat of involving the Better Business Bureau, and copies of my receipts, I have been given an apology and a promise of a return of my $5.95. Amazing the hoops you have to jump through to get what you should have gotten with just a polite reminder of a mistake. Unless I can only get it from them, I will, in the future, stick with buying my OOTS related gear from a local retailer. And no Kevin or Tina, no apology or words from you can change that opinion. Your company was too small and not adequately equipped to handle this situation well. There is now stress and bad feelings all around. It may just be growing pains on your side, but I'm left exhausted just to get my hobbies entertainment fix. As I said before in a post that was deleted for no good reason, their reps tend to be very polite, but the service is substandard.I give the service no stars out of five. Their products are 5 out of 5.

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    Default Re: Ordering Issues from APE Games

    I'd feel remiss if I didn't stick up for my shipping manager here, who went above and beyond to help you, was always very polite, and received only swearing and condescension from you.

    Weeks ago, when she noticed you had placed two book orders, she emailed you about whether you wanted the books sent ahead of the game, since you'd paid multiple shipping costs. You said to ship the books, so she did.

    So you got your books before the game, we're returning you $5.95 in extra shipping and you still can still only complain?
    Owner of APE Games.

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