Bandit Ambush Party

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all. Running a one off campaign soon. I have the scenario all laid out. There are going to be 2 main battles, one that should be relatively ok, one that should be a pain in the ass. Still working on the pain in the ass battle so Ill be asking again soon.

But the first battle will be a ambush by forest bandits just outside of the forest itself. There is a chance the party will spot them before the ambush happens, but there you go.

I am aiming for a CR 5 ish encounter. They are good players but there will probably only be 4 of them. All level 5. I used the online calculator everyone recommends because why not.

My thoughts so far are a 4 man ambush. Core, Complete (-psyonics), Races, Stormwrack, Frostfell, Sandstorm.

Ranger 2 - Archer focus. Probably an elf of some sort. Longbow.
Scout 2 - Ranged. Shortbow. Dex build.

But I need 2 more. Forest bandits. I was thinking Spell Thief for one of them, probably level 1. And I was thinking a second ranger level 2, duel wield build?

Do you think I should bump the encounter up to 5 man? Throw in a cleric level 1?

There will be other random encounters throughout the event but they should be easy to dispatch. Wild animals and the like.

What do you think?

[Dysart]

Depends what you're after really.

I'm playing a high stat (around 30 point+) Pathfinder campaign at the moment with 7 players, all level 1.
They'd probably kill that lot in 1 turn, maybe 2 at a push.

Four 5th level characters, I'd like to point out a couple of things:

Level 1 arcane spell, sleep hits up to 4HD of creatures. So that's 2 of the bandits down in one spell if you have an arcane caster with that, per spell.
Level 1 Fighter with a greatsword and 18 strength will be hitting for around 13hp (8-14) per round without any feats involved.

So going on the above and the group. I'd say have one of the bandits be higher level, maybe level 4 and the rest be level 1s? That way there is some 'Fodder' which could be cleared up in about a round of combat and then one more difficult member which will need the entire focus of the party OR a few rounds of combat.

That's by 2copper, 5th level characters have 3rd level spells and probably a fair amount of magic gear so can probably pack quite a punch.

[Albions_Angel]

Ok thanks :) The CR thing really is broken to all hell. An equal CR rating is supposed to be a clean wipe but it supposed to use 20% of party resources. Id like to nudge a little higher than that but still leave room for the big fight later. The thing is the ambush I suggested would be CR = to that of the party so should burn through a 5th to a quarter of their abilities but from what you said (and now I think about it) it would just be an annoyance. Its a one off scenario with story elements that will tie into my full campaign next academic year so if a couple of characters die, well that just flavour, but not due to an ambush.

So perhaps
Ranger 4 archer with longbow (May replace the animal companion with distracting blow variant).
Ranger Level 2 dual-wield (could serve as spell thief's flanking buddy if the other ranger takes an animal companion)
Scout Level 1 Shortbow (for the skirmish threat)
Spell Thief level 1(can make use of the distracting blow or second ranger)

Does that sound better? There is the annoying high level guy pinging them from far in the back, the scout that keeps just out of reach, the ranger that is enough of a threat to focus on and the spell thief that can deal sneak attack or nick spells if they dont watch him. And there may be an animal companion worrying them that may fly or run off at some point if they dont kill it to warn the other bandits.

[Dysart]

Ok thanks :) The CR thing really is broken to all hell. An equal CR rating is supposed to be a clean wipe but it supposed to use 20% of party resources. Id like to nudge a little higher than that but still leave room for the big fight later. The thing is the ambush I suggested would be CR = to that of the party so should burn through a 5th to a quarter of their abilities but from what you said (and now I think about it) it would just be an annoyance. Its a one off scenario with story elements that will tie into my full campaign next academic year so if a couple of characters die, well that just flavour, but not due to an ambush.

So perhaps
Ranger 4 archer with longbow (May replace the animal companion with distracting blow variant).
Ranger Level 2 dual-wield (could serve as spell thief's flanking buddy if the other ranger takes an animal companion)
Scout Level 1 Shortbow (for the skirmish threat)
Spell Thief level 1(can make use of the distracting blow or second ranger)

Does that sound better? There is the annoying high level guy pinging them from far in the back, the scout that keeps just out of reach, the ranger that is enough of a threat to focus on and the spell thief that can deal sneak attack or nick spells if they dont watch him. And there may be an animal companion worrying them that may fly or run off at some point if they dont kill it to warn the other bandits.

Ok so looking at that composition here's what I'd say you're looking at if you ambush the PCs:

Round 1:
Ranger4 shoots once, deals 1D8+3 damage (I'd assume none magical items for these bandits and they're running MW/Composite instead) so averaging 8 damage to one PC

Ranger2 charges the PC with the best armour (because otherwise it's going to be painful), maybe deals 1D8+2 so average of 7 damage.

Scout1 makes use of 'sniping' and tries to stay hidden after his 1 shot with a shortbow 1D6+1 (Point blank range damage not Composite), average of 5 damage

Spellthief1 picks a dress wearing spell casting type and charges in, deals 2D6+2 with his shortsword and sneak attack, average of 9 damage.

So with the above assumed, they're all going to be quite dex based so say 50% of them win the initiative over the party and the others go after.

Round 2:
Ranger4 takes 2 shots (rapid fire), 2D8+6 = 15 damage
Spellthief1 holds action to interrupt spellcaster?
Players kill Spellthief and Melee ranger.
Scout moves and shoots stealthily from the woods, 2D6+1, 8 damage-ish

So after 2 rounds you've got 1 PC taking around 22 damage, another taking maybe 7 or more, another taking 9 or more and the final member taking 13ish.

So that's a level 3 healing spell, level 1 healing spell, level 1 healing spell and a level 2 healing spell in that order after 2 rounds. Combat would probably last around 3 rounds if I'm guessing at not super powered PCs

Cleric (I'm guessing the PCs will have one or something similar) has 3x 3rd level spells, 4x 2nd level spells and 5x 1st level spells (including bonus for 16 in wisdom) so will have 2x3rd, 3x2nd and 3x1st left over, sounds about right on the healing.


Sorry, I waffled on, but that's how I have to factor stuff for my 7 player game, but I have the problem of the PCs getting almost double the amount of actions as a normal group (they have a animal companion too >.< )


So final notes on the bandits.

Ranger4, Composite longbow, has rapid shot (so 2 attacks) but doesn't have an animal companion... I dunno, maybe they ate it?
OR if you think the PCs will be well equipped and experienced enough then give him a bird to flank for the Spellthief/Ranger2

Ranger2, Longsword and Shortsword (a classic) both are masterwork (offset the minuses for dual wield) but goes in and distracts the fighter/armour/tank PC

Scout2, Shortbow Masterwork, pick a different target to all of the other Bandits, spread out the love.

Spellthief, use is spell thieving primarily, as a tactic that's why he's there. That way he won't pile on too much damage.

[HammeredWharf]

I'm not a big fan of "random" encounters, because usually they end up being a gigantic waste of time. They're not threatening, so people don't really use tactics and the majority of time spent is spent on various calculations. I'd bump the entire bandit party to lvl 4-5 and turn it into a major encounter instead of filler. If it's a party of unoptimized NPCs, they're not going to be much of a threat even if they're technically of equal levels, especially because players tend to play their characters better than the DM plays his.

Is your party in a hurry? At least if they're in a hurry they won't be able to go rest right after the encounter to make it completely pointless. Then again, even if they are in a hurry, they can use a wand of Cure Light Wounds or Vigor to heal up quickly without wasting their spells.

[Albions_Angel]

They are in a hurry and wont have access to wands but they will probably be able to rest after the encounter that night at their destination without being troubled further. They are in a hurry for fluff reasons.

I was wondering that. I may bump up another of the bandits to 4th or at least third. Im thinking I might ditch the spell thief for something like rogue or even a ninja, something they wont be expecting and wont be easy to deal with. The idea is these bandits are more organized than they should be and will turn out to also be better equipped. There will then be a trip back to the original starting city with some story elements that will tie in with my campaign taking place in September next year (and in game terms 12 months after this scenario).

I keep trying to think what we usually have to deal with in our campaigns usually, but there really isnt a lot of fighting. Lots of traveling, lots of decision making, a couple of fights (one of them being that weeks BBEG) and maybe a couple of traps.

Last weeks 8 hour session involved piloting a boat for 3 days, during which we encountered a group of 4 pixies who trashed our stuff but didnt really cause any harm (we exploded one and they confused our cleric but I restrained him), passed through a wall of fog that drained hitpoints (3 of us flew over it, and 3 swam under it), walked to an island over water that turned to jelly and fought an etherial spirit dragon that almost TPKed us with stat drain (but was eventually brought down). We then got on a different boat (this one flew) and flew away. 8 hours.

The time before that was a different campaign and in that we wandered to a village, facing no danger as we did so, spent 3 days camping out for tomb robbers, on the 3rd night caught them, almost killed them (they were all level 1 mages with only illusions learned and they were having fun, not robbing tombs), took them back to their school where we learned one of their friends was missing, went back to the village where we found the barrow he had broken into, fought his guards that were scattered throughout and then beat the ever living crap out of him. 8 hours.

Maybe have a 4th lvl, a 3rd, and 2 seconds? a second and 2 firsts?

The final fight will be longer and involve room clearing but I havnt thought that far ahead yet.

[Dysart]

My only warning for that is that this isn't the major Bandit group, this is a group that is either guarding the perimiter or is just looking for an easy mark... When you get to the bigger harder encounter you'll need to ramp up the danger quite heavily, meaning that the players might not be able to handle it.

My suggestion would be to not let them rest afterward.
Maybe have a 5th NPC who doesn't fight but runs off into the woods, make it a chase sequence with fatigue rolls and reflex rolls to avoid underbrush (unless there's a druid/ranger in the party who has woodland stride) as they race to stop the Bandit lord from being warned.
If they fail to catch this runner then they have consequences in the form of no chance to rest (level 1 bandits attack them, no real risk but stops them from regaining spells) and have the bandits set up to tactically murder them if they don't plan the attack well.

[Surpriser]

Another thing to consider: How experienced are you as a DM and how well do you know the rules of combat and of each class in that fight?
Running 4 completely different characters at the same time is anything but easy - most players never manage more than one
If you want to avoid having your players spend most of their time waiting while you look up rules or calculate attack rolls, I would suggest ditching this rather elaborate band of robbers.

I would go with a ranger 4 (sniping with a longbow), a spellthief or rogue 4 and a couple of mooks (ranger or rogue 2). That way, you only have to consider a few rulesets (archery, stealth, sneak attacks) and having a few minions with identical stats saves a lot on stat blocks (and time to look them up).

[Dysart]

Another thing to consider: How experienced are you as a DM and how well do you know the rules of combat and of each class in that fight?
Running 4 completely different characters at the same time is anything but easy - most players never manage more than one
If you want to avoid having your players spend most of their time waiting while you look up rules or calculate attack rolls, I would suggest ditching this rather elaborate band of robbers.

I would go with a ranger 4 (sniping with a longbow), a spellthief or rogue 4 and a couple of mooks (ranger or rogue 2). That way, you only have to consider a few rulesets (archery, stealth, sneak attacks) and having a few minions with identical stats saves a lot on stat blocks (and time to look them up).

Agrees with ^

[atemu1234]

Another thing to consider: How experienced are you as a DM and how well do you know the rules of combat and of each class in that fight?
Running 4 completely different characters at the same time is anything but easy - most players never manage more than one
If you want to avoid having your players spend most of their time waiting while you look up rules or calculate attack rolls, I would suggest ditching this rather elaborate band of robbers.

I would go with a ranger 4 (sniping with a longbow), a spellthief or rogue 4 and a couple of mooks (ranger or rogue 2). That way, you only have to consider a few rulesets (archery, stealth, sneak attacks) and having a few minions with identical stats saves a lot on stat blocks (and time to look them up).

Yep. I've been practicing for a few years and still can't handle more than five statblocks at once.

[Albions_Angel]

Cool, good to know.

Ill bring it down to a few less classes, even out the levels a bit too.

I have a fairly compact and easy to follow "quick guide" for char sheets with pre-calculated damage, etc, rather than just a strength bonus here, a +1 to weapon damage there, etc. But limiting that by restricting the number of classes is useful advice (and the sort of thing that doesnt appear in the DMG).

So then, I think ill drop the spell thief (only had him originally because I didnt want a pure rogue, worrying it would be too damaging, but thats been debunked higher up) and go with 2 rangers, one at 4, one at 2, a rogue at 3-4, and a scout at 2. Maybe a bird animal companion but I think the ranger variant that provides flanking with ranged attacks is more beneficial to a bandit than a lovable pet owl.

The party is in a hurry to get to a location and will be ambushed before that. They will have a chance to rest at the location before the big fight BUT they may be attacked overnight by a smaller party (a group of level 1s and 2s) so they wont be rested before the NEXT attack.

IE, Ambush significantly drains their resources, they reach the destination and set up watches, are attacked in the night and are still drained but dispatch the threat easily. Rest. Recover spells. March through location disarming traps and tracking, reach bandit hide out, big battle, go home.

[Dysart]

Cool, good to know.

Ill bring it down to a few less classes, even out the levels a bit too.

I have a fairly compact and easy to follow "quick guide" for char sheets with pre-calculated damage, etc, rather than just a strength bonus here, a +1 to weapon damage there, etc. But limiting that by restricting the number of classes is useful advice (and the sort of thing that doesnt appear in the DMG).

So then, I think ill drop the spell thief (only had him originally because I didnt want a pure rogue, worrying it would be too damaging, but thats been debunked higher up) and go with 2 rangers, one at 4, one at 2, a rogue at 3-4, and a scout at 2. Maybe a bird animal companion but I think the ranger variant that provides flanking with ranged attacks is more beneficial to a bandit than a lovable pet owl.

The party is in a hurry to get to a location and will be ambushed before that. They will have a chance to rest at the location before the big fight BUT they may be attacked overnight by a smaller party (a group of level 1s and 2s) so they wont be rested before the NEXT attack.

IE, Ambush significantly drains their resources, they reach the destination and set up watches, are attacked in the night and are still drained but dispatch the threat easily. Rest. Recover spells. March through location disarming traps and tracking, reach bandit hide out, big battle, go home.

If you remember it'd be cool to hear how it went once you've run the session!

[Albions_Angel]

Sure, though it wont be much. Its how my group plays most of our games. Open world "directed" questing. RPG style. Base camp somewhere, the session will involve either moving out radially from the base camp to a location, dealing with the problem there and returning, or moving to a new base came, clearing something out of it and setting up shop for the next session. "Random" (read, pre-planned, perhaps with a dice roll to determine when it happens) encounters while traveling, or during night time watches, BBEG battles and large dungeons at either end. TBH I thought thats how all people played.

EDIT: I have set a reminder for May 25th (the day after I will run my one off) so i can post what happened. If you like where the story is going I can do the same with my campaign next year. I dont want to give too much away because I am fairly sure at least 2 of my team mates are active on GiantITP.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I'm usually a fan of adding a bard to any group of intelligent humanoid enemies--either a higher level bard or a lower level bard. A level 2 bard with inspirational boost (at least for 3.5) and a scroll of haste is a great force-multiplier.