Squall vs Tidus

[Gnoman]

It also explicitly states that GFs and Items are allowed, but people keep trying to ban them.

[Almarck]

It also explicitly states that GFs and Items are allowed, but people keep trying to ban them.

I'm mostly confused on why people are bring up holy war, yet are not including similarly powerful items for Tidus's defense. I mean, unless I am missing something, wouldn't "automed" work to cancel everything except Death since cureall works one everything?

Mind it's been a long time since I ever thought about X. Granted, thank you for reminding me, as I had forgotten items were allowed for both sides.

[Rakaydos]

So Tidus wins in 2 rounds, unless Squall gets his 2 round invinibility setup off first. (aura into hero)

Whoever gets a second round first wins.

Deathproof Ribbon AutoMed HPBreak armor (with 99 X potions, Elixars and megalixars ) basically means that Squall has to be able to 1 shot tidus with HP damage. Eden cant do it, but squall's limit break after Meltdown can. But squall needs setup time.

[Angelalex242]

Trading Autohaste for Automed makes Tidus sad, as he loses his ability to keep up with Squall (who will certainly be keeping auto haste), who now gets more turns then he does and murders him. So Squall would easily get his combo off, set up Lionheart, and poor Tidus is doomed. Even if he thinks to cast Autolife, it's trivial to do another Doomtrain+Lionheart till Tidus runs out of MP.

Note that should Squall drop, there's a 99/255 chance Phoenix automatically saves him (and does fire damage to Tidus)

Note also there's a 10 percent chance Tidus has a sad encounter with Odin before he gets to take a turn. Tidus is no Seifer and won't be duplicating THAT trick.

[Gnoman]

Squall doesn't even need Lionheart to trigger, as he'd be doing ~30000 - ~80000 with just the base limit break. It's not even his only way to break the damage limit, either. Meteor can do it if you have a high enough Magic stat, and you can use any magic with Triple to cast it three times, potentially dealling 30000 damage a turn with just spells.

Basically, the only way for Tidus to have any chance at all requires him to have Break HP Limit (I can't recall when Break Damage limit takes effect, is it before or after Defense is factored in?) and immunity to essentially every status. Even then, it's not going to be easy. Squall just has too many strings to his bow, and has too great an ability to swap between them if he's junctioned properly.

[Angelalex242]

Tidus is assumed to have Break HP Limit and 99999 HP, Deathproof, Ribbon, AutoHaste. Any other combination on his armor is less optimal then that one. In fact, Tidus is assumed to lose if he switches armors.

[Rakaydos]

Tidus is assumed to have Break HP Limit and 99999 HP, Deathproof, Ribbon, AutoHaste. Any other combination on his armor is less optimal then that one. In fact, Tidus is assumed to lose if he switches armors.

I would argue that he can swap to a breakHP, deathproof, Ribbon, AutoMed armor once haste has been autocast by the first armor, If Squall looks like he's trying to wear away tidus's HP. (if squall casts dispell, swapping armor and back is faster than casting hast yourself would be)

[Mato]

Given the way the op's post was set up it seems to imply we are doing precisely an end game 100% scenario. Unless I am misreading things of course.

Yeah it is intended to be near or after end-game. Post FFX Tidus doesn't appear to become any stronger, but Squall would since he would have a stock of apocalypse to use in the junction system. But on Squall having it, I'm been vague, listening to you guys for opinions.

The feed back on Tidus's armor also favors HP break, auto-haste, deathward, and ribbon otherwise he dies in one hit from Squall. Tidus also uses the Caladbolg, which means break damage limit, triple overdrive, evade & counter, and magic counter. Like most protagonists, Caladbolg's attack power is based on Tidus's current HP vs his maximum.

Squall's arrangement isn't as clearly defined. Initiative, auto-haste, ribbon and the other one varies (some favor shell, others protect). Some people are like no hero and others dreaming of completely unrealistic outcomes like Tidus has perfect chances to steal up to 400 rare items amongst thousands with perfect accuracy without so much as wasting a turn.

Maybe we have our easy answer. If Squall can use his invincibility items he wins, everything else is just arguing how cheap that feels. So that's a win condition for Squall that unlike deathward cannot be really overcome, so in the interest of moving forward let's just call it and move on. With holy war (trial) & hero (trial) banned, but not the rest, how does things play out?

P.S. There is a lot of feedback saying GFs are slow, at 1,000 compatibility summoning a GF takes 2.8 seconds (at max game speed), the animation to most character actions are longer than the actual required summoning time as spells are pretty extensive (such as auto-life).

[Rakaydos]

out of curiosity, how much better is Hastaga than auto-haste? how many turnns does it ave to be up to be worth spending a turn to cast?

[Rakaydos]

Tidus also uses the Caladbolg, which means break damage limit, triple overdrive, evade & counter, and magic counter. Like most protagonists, Caladbolg's attack power is based on Tidus's current HP vs his maximum.

That's actualy not nessisary with this matchup- Squall only has 9999 HP, so a damagebreak weapon isnt needed.

Given that there is a strong argument that if Tidus goes first he wins before holy war can even go off, without invincibility items I dont see Squall standing a chance.

[McNum]

Hm, isn't VIT 0 and Guard Break the same status? Same debuff, different name due to translations being different. In FFX, Guard Break also sets the enemy Defense to 0. Because, if we're talking post-Penance Tidus here, he's seen that, and know how to beat it. That darn thing spams Full Break at the party all the time, which is very, very bad to have when facing Penance. But in Final Fantasy X, Dispel removes all Breaks, yet conveniently leaves Auto-Life and any status granted by armor alone.

So, if Squall uses Meltdown, Tidus uses Dispel. Armor Break gone. In that case, Squall's proposed chain of actions probably won't cut it. Especially since I just remembered an evil way for Tidus to open with items available...

Use: Candle of Life (Inflict Doom Status, cannot miss)

Of course, introducing the Candle of Life into the mix does change things a bit. It doesn't miss, and Squall cannot gain Doom protection. In 16 seconds, Squall dies, as per how Doom affects Final Fantasy VIII characters. So, does Hero Drink counter Doom after it's been inflicted? I've never actually seen those two interact, so I have no idea. And if Squall uses his first turn for a Hero Drink, meaning he gives up on Limit Breaks for the duration, then Tidus can try to sandbag with a couple of Quick Pocket moves to delay his turn to just before Squall and try to get a turn between the Hero Drink expires and Squall can use another. If he can do that, Squall is Doomed. Literally. Unless being invincible actually makes that countdown harmless. Anyone ever seen those two at the same time?

[Gnoman]

I'm pretty sure that Death protection prevents the Doom status in FFVIII, actually. I'm not entirely certain, as there's only 3 attacks in the entire game that inflict it (Doom, Doomtrain, and Bad Breath), but that's a pretty standard thing in the series.

[Almarck]

I'm pretty sure that Death protection prevents the Doom status in FFVIII, actually. I'm not entirely certain, as there's only 3 attacks in the entire game that inflict it (Doom, Doomtrain, and Bad Breath), but that's a pretty standard thing in the series.

In some of the games,I played doom is classified as a death effect and is thus modified by protections and defenses against death

[Kato]

To whoever said Delay Buster wouldn't work that way, I'll believe that when it stops working that way in my game.

Well, that would be me. Since you apparently have a game ready to go, does it work against characters with maxed out speed, by only having Tidus constantly Delay them and can you still get other attacks in?
Also, you didn't address the accuracy issue

Okay. Tidus can't grind to get ideal armor? Squall can't grind all his GFs or customize them or get 100 of every spell needed to max his stats junctioning. He also doesn't get any Heroes or Holy Wars and only gets Quezacotl and Shiva.

Now you're being ridiculous, then we need to put Tidus down with his basic sword and Squall wins with no effort. But while I have no problem with giving Tidus everything he can have, as Mato said, Squall can far more easily peak his Junctions than Tidus have a set of every imaginable equipment.

I'm pretty sure that Death protection prevents the Doom status in FFVIII, actually. I'm not entirely certain, as there's only 3 attacks in the entire game that inflict it (Doom, Doomtrain, and Bad Breath), but that's a pretty standard thing in the series.

Yeah, but we were reminded you can't have perfect Death protection. And sadly Doom is one of the few statuses Esuna doesn't cure. (Treatment apparently does, but who uses Treatment? )


I'm still split, admittedly because I don't believe in Disciple's "eternal delay" scenario until I've seen it work for a similar duel. (No offense)

[Angelalex242]

You can have perfect death protection in FF8. It just comes at the expense of Status Attack Death. 100 deaths will grant perfect immunity or perfect accuracy, depending. Squall is probably going to be using status attack death, though (else Tidus can and should replace the deathproof on his armor with something better...), so as much death resistance as he'll have is the +40% from holy.

Although...what's tidus going to do about 100 stops to status attack? Stop doesn't exist in FFX, so Tidus's ribbon won't stop it....

[Rakaydos]

I think we've narrowed Tidus down to just 2 sets of armor and perhaps a change of weapon.

Armor 1 is BreakHP, Deathproof, Ribbon, Autohaste. This is the primary armor
Armor 2 is BreakHP, Deathproof, Ribbon, AutoMed. This armor is swapped to if Squall tries wearing Tidus's HP down over multiple turns of hero/holywar. If squall dispells the haste granted by the primary armor, a quick double-armor-swap will refresh it.

Weapon doesnt need breakDamage, because squall only has 9999 HP. Still, giving Tidus deathtouch/stonetouch as well is an option worth considering, as squall doesnt have 100% death prevention and Quickhit gives Tidus many opportunities to inflict the status.

So, call it 1 weapon with magic counter, Evade and counter, Counter, Deathtounch;
Another with magic counter, evade and counter, counter, stonetouch
and a third with Magic Counter, Evade and counter, Counter, Pierce.

That's 5 pieces of custom gear- Squall has more GFs than that.

EDIT: perhaps a 3rd armor just in case squall doesnt have status attack death junctioned.

[Gnoman]

Full Life gives 40%, Life gives 20%, and Holy gives 40%, for a total of 100%. It's suboptimal, but it works.

[Rakaydos]

Full Life gives 40%, Life gives 20%, and Holy gives 40%, for a total of 100%. It's suboptimal, but it works.

What's Squall's best Stonetouch defence with that setup?

[Angelalex242]

Yes. Full Life and Life have better things to do on elemental defense. With Ultima and Shell.

Anyways. Stopstrike. How does Tidus deal with that? Ribbon won't save him, as Ribbon has a specific list of things it guards against.

[Gnoman]

What's Squall's best Stonetouch defence with that setup?

100%. You can have up to 4 spells junctioned to status defense at any given time, so that setup gives room for 100 breaks.

As for elemental defense, not only does Ultima gives 1:1 protection against all elements, (IIRC) FFX only uses 4, so with Elem-Defx4 you could be immune without Ultima anyway.

[Angelalex242]

Optimized Elemental Defense is Ultima/Full Life/Life/Shell, for 90% absorb of all elements.

Holy and Flare are interesting cases...in FFX, they're non elemental. In FFX-2, Holy is an element again. In FF8, Flare is fire based, and Holy is an element.

So absorbing all elements just denies Tidus using Yuna's holy spell, for what it's worth.

Of course, Tidus probably won't be hitting with magic anyway.

I've yet to see an answer for Status Atk J Stop.

[Gnoman]

I've yet to see an answer for Status Atk J Stop.

That's a tricky one, because Stop doesn't exist in FFX. I suppose the best way to rule it would be to treat it and Delay Attack (which has no FFVIII equivalent) identically, with either them both working (and undefendable), or both not working.

[Angelalex242]

...I think Status Atk J stop just won the fight.

Stop is far more dangerous to Tidus then Delay is to Squall. Particularly since Initiative vs. First Strike is a draw.

Of course, if Squall is using Stopstrike, Death is on defense, along with the AOE defenses. (Break is 85% in my table)

[Rakaydos]

So it sounds like tiduss only chance in a "yes both" situation is to go first (a toss up) and successfully cast poison or break. I am willing to concede that matchup.

The "no both" option is looking to me to be more interesting- a stalemate with Tidus running throughcitem slots faster than squall, (X Elixars/megaelixars/xpotions per hero/holydays, where X is squall s actions per hero duration) but with a small chance each cycle of getting off deathtouch, stonetouch, or plain old Berserk, which would stop squall from using invincibility items.

Who wins becomes a probability calculation.

[Traab]

Well then forget screw attack, we need to bring the Deadliest Warrior crew in on this. I wonder how many pig carcasses will be obliterated while they demonstrate what the characters can do?

[DiscipleofBob]

Well, that would be me. Since you apparently have a game ready to go, does it work against characters with maxed out speed, by only having Tidus constantly Delay them and can you still get other attacks in?
Also, you didn't address the accuracy issue

For your first question, yes. In the various playthroughs I've done of FFX, none of which even get to max sphere grid (though the HD remakes and Dark Aeons will probably make me change that) I use Delay Attack and Delay Buster to give Tidus near infinite turns against enemies not immune to Delay.

For your second, honestly, I'm not putting that much stock in the raw math. The systems are similar but different enough that I don't think comparing anything but easily visible effects. It's like pitting a 3.5 character against a 4e character. Sure some of the numbers look similar, but that doesn't mean they're actually balanced with each other.

For that reason I don't intend to debate or refute the math here and will leave that to others. Based on my own experience within the game, Tidus has always seemed to be one of the more accurate characters, being who you're supposed to use against small evasive fiends like wolves from early on. I understand and respect that others may disagree with me on the second point. That's fine.

Now you're being ridiculous, then we need to put Tidus down with his basic sword and Squall wins with no effort. But while I have no problem with giving Tidus everything he can have, as Mato said, Squall can far more easily peak his Junctions than Tidus have a set of every imaginable equipment.

I was intentionally being ridiculous. The whole point of that paragraph was me arguing that Tidus should be allowed anything he has access to same as Squall.

I'm still split, admittedly because I don't believe in Disciple's "eternal delay" scenario until I've seen it work for a similar duel. (No offense)

No offense taken. Even if I could stream footage from my console, I'm sure any direct examples I could provide wouldn't be directly analogous to the battle at hand.

I've yet to see an answer for Status Atk J Stop.

I could argue that Ribbon protects against Stop in every other game, or that Ribbon protects against the closest things to Stop that exist in FFX. But the standard so far is that stat effects from other games have the advantage due to no defenses present for things that don't exist. So I'll concede on Stop being a possible win scenario for Squall.

Now the counter question: Does Stat-Attack J Stop count as an unfair metagame knowledge on Squall's part, especially if Death or Meltdown is the normal? Squall can't switch his junctions mid-fight. Tidus can have as much equipment as he takes the time to craft for any situation he can think of. And honestly we're only looking at 3 or 4 weapons and 3 or 4 armors for different situations.

On slightly unrelated news, Team Squall will be happy to know that according to the Dissidia forums, Squall is ranked Rank S or S+ on their latest tier list (I could find) while Tidus is lower at Tier A. Since Dissidia's probably the closest we'll ever get to a game with fair and comparable mechanics.

[Angelalex242]

Realistically, the battle wouldn't be confined by ATB. So the initial attacks of Tidus and Squall hit simultaneously as they clash (much as they might in Dissidia). Squall with Stop, Tidus with Delay Buster. (Squall can use a Ribbon of his own due to Pocketstation, so the percentages are optional. As with Tidus, Squall's Ribbon only helps with statuses in his game, so not Delay)

Tidus is frozen in time, Squall recovers, summons Doomtrain. Tidus is Vit 0ed. Squall casts Aura, uses a Limit break, chops through Tidus's massive HP in a single move.

[Starwulf]

On slightly unrelated news, Team Squall will be happy to know that according to the Dissidia forums, Squall is ranked Rank S or S+ on their latest tier list (I could find) while Tidus is lower at Tier A. Since Dissidia's probably the closest we'll ever get to a game with fair and comparable mechanics.

*Emits girly scream of joy*

[danzibr]

On slightly unrelated news, Team Squall will be happy to know that according to the Dissidia forums, Squall is ranked Rank S or S+ on their latest tier list (I could find) while Tidus is lower at Tier A. Since Dissidia's probably the closest we'll ever get to a game with fair and comparable mechanics.

*Emits girly scream of joy*

Well, that's enough to settle it for me.

Come to think of it, that'd settle a lot of Nintendo v. things, using SSB tiers.

[Kato]

First off, sorry I again poorly phrased my point about Death immunity, I meant the "expected" Status defense setuo without Death, i.e. Esuna/Pain/Reflek. (Though, I know this is still debtable but it's probably what Squall would have if he went in with ne prep-time)

On slightly unrelated news, Team Squall will be happy to know that according to the Dissidia forums, Squall is ranked Rank S or S+ on their latest tier list (I could find) while Tidus is lower at Tier A. Since Dissidia's probably the closest we'll ever get to a game with fair and comparable mechanics.

Hm... didn't even know these existed. It's been too long since I played Dissidia... are those based on their power in Dissidia or common popularity or...?


Stop is a pretty interesting idea... by the Delay logic Tidus can't defend against it and he won't die from it, can't counter anymore, making Autolife pointless, giving Squall the chance to dispel anything useful he might have and then buff up to finish him off. But... would Squall really carry Stop as his Status attack? I guess the matter of the "eternal Delay" is still open (for me, anyway)...



Okay, let me suggest a different angle. Tidus vs Omega Weapon and Squall vs Penance. Er, okay, that's unfair, too