Dragon wrestling, or proof that CMB/CMD is attainable to the point of being broken

[Jormengand]

melee standard issue

Ignoring the fact that I've never so much as heard of at least four of the items he's using, which is as many as I've actually seen used on a melee character.

He has four feats solely for grappling (is WF grapple even a thing? ), four buff spells on him, oh, and by the way, AN ENTIRE CLASS THAT I'VE NEVER HEARD OF built just for grappling. Yes, you can grapple a GWRD, good luck doing just about anything else on that build.

This isn't just a grapple build. This is a grapple build that's combed through the entirety of the Pathfinder Roleplaying System to dig up bonuses to grapple. If it can't beat the dragon, it's doing something wrong.

He has no more magic than any other level 20 character would.

Yeah, I want you to take a moment to think about what you just said there.

[Psyren]

Ignoring the fact that I've never so much as heard of at least four of the items he's using, which is as many as I've actually seen used on a melee character.

He has four feats solely for grappling (is WF grapple even a thing? ), four buff spells on him, oh, and by the way, AN ENTIRE CLASS THAT I'VE NEVER HEARD OF built just for grappling. Yes, you can grapple a GWRD, good luck doing just about anything else on that build.

This isn't just a grapple build. This is a grapple build that's combed through the entirety of the Pathfinder Roleplaying System to dig up bonuses to grapple. If it can't beat the dragon, it's doing something wrong.

Tetori doesn't actually affect the numbers, which is the point of this thread. It lets you get certain feats slightly earlier (irrelevant for a level 20 build), and it lets you grapple monsters that have access to freedom of movement or teleportation, which are only a small subset of the Bestiary. The Dragon can teleport, but Big T can't, and you can stop the dragon from teleporting without Tetori by forcing a concentration check.

It does give you the grab attack, which is good to have, but pointless against the dragon and Big T because they are Colossal.

In a nutshell - you could use the gear/feats in the opening post just fine to build a grappling Fighter, Brawler or even Barbarian if you wanted to. Or a non-Tetori monk for that matter.

Yeah, I want you to take a moment to think about what you just said there.

I have thought about it, and again I say - there's no gear or items in that post that are overly-specialized. They're all things I'd expect any unarmed melee character to care about. Could you point out to me which items seem overly specialized to you?

[Jormengand]

*Sigh*

At 20th level, nobody sees fit to point out that a diving psychic warrior dual-wielding lances on a griffon can kill both dragon and tetori in a single action, or that a barbarian can leap off mount Everest without taking any real effect from the fall (he could do this at about level 6 unless he rolled badly for fall damage), or that an inquisitor can roll stealth 1000 times so long as he can see a friendly army, and adds everyone's stealth check bonus, because 20th level characters can, and should be able to, do things of that calibre, especially if they're optimised to do them.

I mean, being able to strike at someone's vital organs to deal about ten times as much damage as the average person has hit points, seven times around (because haste +TWF)? Gimme a break. But of course, that's absolutely bog standard for a rogue. Being able to shoot something which is over a thousand feet away and hit nineteen times out of twenty, even though you have shoddy dexterity and no optimisation with ranged weapons? Eleventh-level fighter says hi. If you can grapple a dragon at 20th level, you are not special. You should not be special. We shouldn't be going, "Wow, this guy can grapple dragons!" We should be going "This is a grappler." The same way we go "This guy can hit things a thousand feet away, he's... well, actually, not even an archer." By twentieth level your average elf wizard should be able to grab a longbow and hit a target at a thousand feet, with no magic.

And that's a point. Psychic warrior? One psychic power. Barbarian? No magic. Inquisitor? No magic. Oh, he has magic, but he doesn't need it to do what he's doing. Rogue? One spell, doesn't really need it. Fighter? Nothing. Wizard? Nothing. I reiterate: If you are a twentieth level character, doing something that doesn't look as though it should be possible does not make you special. It makes you worthy of the name twentieth-level character.

[Psyren]

We shouldn't be going, "Wow, this guy can grapple dragons!" We should be going "This is a grappler." The same way we go "This guy can hit things a thousand feet away, he's... well, actually, not even an archer." By twentieth level your average elf wizard should be able to grab a longbow and hit a target at a thousand feet, with no magic.

While I don't know if Necromancy's point was to try and solicit reactions along the lines of "hey guys, my build can grapple dragons, gaze in awe and upvote!" - my own point was "hey, guys who were saying CMB doesn't work - turns out you just aren't actually that good at building a grappler if you think that." I won't speak for him, but it seems to me that he was going for the latter as well.

So in short, I was in fact saying "this is a grappler" - and I think he was too.

[Jormengand]

While I don't know if Necromancy's point was to try and solicit reactions along the lines of "hey guys, my build can grapple dragons, gaze in awe and upvote!" - my own point was "hey, guys who were saying CMB doesn't work - turns out you just aren't actually that good at building a grappler if you think that." I won't speak for him, but it seems to me that he was going for the latter as well.

So in short, I was in fact saying "this is a grappler" - and I think he was too.

Really? The thread title doesn't seem to be in agreement.

[squiggit]

I have thought about it, and again I say - there's no gear or items in that post that are overly-specialized.

Dusty Rose Prism, Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuver(Grapple), Shirt of Immolation and the +4 Brawling on his amulet all seem pretty specialized.

[Psyren]

Dusty Rose Prism, Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuver(Grapple), Shirt of Immolation and the +4 Brawling on his amulet all seem pretty specialized.

Dusty Rose Prism I'll give you. The Gauntlets are not specific to grappling; any melee character who wants to use any maneuver at all will eventually want a pair. The Shirt is totally irrelevant to his CMB, and it's especially irrelevant for grappling a red dragon, so it can be ignored completely. Getting your weapon's enhancement to your maneuver is also bog-standard and expected, Brawling is just the cheapest way to do it.

[IZ42]

Really? The thread title doesn't seem to be in agreement.

The thread title doesn't seem to indicate either way to me. It seems to say "Hey look, big numbers can apparently happen", in a mildly humorous way.

[Jormengand]

The thread title doesn't seem to indicate either way to me. It seems to say "Hey look, big numbers can apparently happen", in a mildly humorous way.

Dragon wrestling, or proof that CMB/CMD is attainable to the point of being broke

I'm gonna assume that means he thinks they shouldn't be able to do that.

[IZ42]

Dragon wrestling, or proof that CMB/CMD is attainable to the point of being broke

I'm gonna assume that means he thinks they shouldn't be able to do that.

I'm gonna assume that he means 'broke' like a wizard is a broke. Not because it normally should be able to do so, but because it's extremely good at doing what it does, and can improve upon that ability with a few simple tricks, which he outlines in the OP. However, I don't think he's going to respond, as the arguments seem to have scared him off.

Also, you really don't need to put the title in giant, italicized, bolded, underlined text (is it just me, or does that look like a spell with a ton of metamagics? Someone should make those metamagic feats.) just for my sole benefit. I can read, you know .

[Psyren]

Dragon wrestling, or proof that CMB/CMD is attainable to the point of being broke

I'm gonna assume that means he thinks they shouldn't be able to do that.

As a wise man once asked me, "you do know how hyperbole and literary devices in general work right?"

Yeah, he was exaggerating, and "I can succeed at combat-maneuvers vs. level-appropriate foes" isn't actually "broken." But the thread still proves that CMB is rather easily attainable if even 15 PB characters can do it.

[General Sajaru]

And it seems to me that he's also pointing out how it's much more easily attainable than the comparable ability in 3.5.

[Psyren]

And it seems to me that he's also pointing out how it's much more easily attainable than the comparable ability in 3.5.

It is - and more importantly, you can grapple things regardless of size now. In 3.5, grappling was pointless past a certain level unless you were a spellcaster/manifester, since that was the only way to get to Gargantuan size so you could grapple Colossal creatures.

3.5 grapple = draping yourself all over the target, putting them in a full-nelson/Yemma-lock etc.
PF grapple = restraining the target, which can be fluffed as above, or simply by grabbing an extremity or two and heavily restricting their movement.

[Necromancy]

I'm here, was away for work

Point of the thread was definitely to illustrate that grapple CMD of monsters isn't unbeatable as people believe.

This isn't a theory optimized build, it's one of my actual characters.

All items are from core/non 3rd party

Monk is preferred for grapple as monk armor/wisdom is added to CMD which is what mobs roll against to break free.

"... Broke"

Is a subjective term. Looking at my title like it's some kind of RAW is ridiculous. That being said, the idea of a dwarf being able to huck a colossal creature off a cliff seems broken in its lack of believability. But that's just me.

[Necromancy]

*Sigh*

At 20th level, nobody sees fit to point out that a diving psychic warrior dual-wielding lances on a griffon can kill both dragon and tetori in a single action, or that a barbarian can leap off mount Everest without taking any real effect from the fall (he could do this at about level 6 unless he rolled badly for fall damage), or that an inquisitor can roll stealth 1000 times so long as he can see a friendly army, and adds everyone's stealth check bonus, because 20th level characters can, and should be able to, do things of that calibre, especially if they're optimised to do them.

I mean, being able to strike at someone's vital organs to deal about ten times as much damage as the average person has hit points, seven times around (because haste +TWF)? Gimme a break. But of course, that's absolutely bog standard for a rogue. Being able to shoot something which is over a thousand feet away and hit nineteen times out of twenty, even though you have shoddy dexterity and no optimisation with ranged weapons? Eleventh-level fighter says hi. If you can grapple a dragon at 20th level, you are not special. You should not be special. We shouldn't be going, "Wow, this guy can grapple dragons!" We should be going "This is a grappler." The same way we go "This guy can hit things a thousand feet away, he's... well, actually, not even an archer." By twentieth level your average elf wizard should be able to grab a longbow and hit a target at a thousand feet, with no magic.

And that's a point. Psychic warrior? One psychic power. Barbarian? No magic. Inquisitor? No magic. Oh, he has magic, but he doesn't need it to do what he's doing. Rogue? One spell, doesn't really need it. Fighter? Nothing. Wizard? Nothing. I reiterate: If you are a twentieth level character, doing something that doesn't look as though it should be possible does not make you special. It makes you worthy of the name twentieth-level character.

In our games we play straight pathfinder.
No 3.5 grandfathered in
No psionics
No guns
High RP
mostly single class or single+prestige class characters as RP leans toward

The idea is that at high levels we don't degenerate into a bunch of super heroes having a tea party.

I say this so you understand why I will now state that.....

I have no idea what you're talking about

Also, relevance to the thread is in question.

[Jormengand]

In our games we play straight pathfinder.
No 3.5 grandfathered in
No psionics
No guns
High RP
mostly single class or single+prestige class characters as RP leans toward

The idea is that at high levels we don't degenerate into a bunch of super heroes having a tea party.

Great, you have invalidated my psychic warrior and no-one else.

I say this so you understand why I will now state that.....

I have no idea what you're talking about

Also, relevance to the thread is in question.

The point is, that you are not special just because you can do one thing better than looks like it makes any sense. So can sixth-level barbarians. So can third-level inquisitors.

[Anlashok]

The idea is that at high levels we don't degenerate into a bunch of super heroes having a tea party.

Still trying to figure out how banning blunderbusses but allowing wizards and arcanists and oracles does anything to accomplish this.

In fact absolutely nothing in your post does anything to alter the power curve of the game.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How is this "optimizing heavily?" Literally the only item he has that isn't melee standard issue is the dusty rose prism ioun stone. Everything else is baseline competency or even just irrelevant to grappling in general. Furthermore, he is using the lowest point buy option available (15) - make it 20 or 25 and he can start the game with even better stats, pushing the numbers further to succeeding on a 3 or possibly less.

"Optimizing heavily" might not have been quite the right phrasing; "focusing heavily" is better. He's got 20 levels in class that essentially does nothing but grapple, several feats, multiple magic items and buff spells. He's dedicated himself to one thing, and he's good at it. Game functioning as intended; carry on.

[(Un)Inspired]

I think grappling...






































... is kinda neat.

[Snowbluff]

I agree with Jormengand. I think the problem here is that you've build a grappler. I mean, "woo numbers," but the build cost is so high.

I remember there being a Druid build that could get their CMB/CMD in this range. Then you could also do other things. You should try that next.

[Necromancy]

The point is, that you are not special just because you can do one thing better than looks like it makes any sense. So can sixth-level barbarians. So can third-level inquisitors.

No, the point is that you're trying to hijack a thread with some off topic irrelevant crap. Your opinion of how a class stacks up to your theorycraft optimizing is about as useful as ...... Well I'm sure you get the picture

[Necromancy]

I agree with Jormengand. I think the problem here is that you've build a grappler. I mean, "woo numbers," but the build cost is so high.

I remember there being a Druid build that could get their CMB/CMD in this range. Then you could also do other things. You should try that next.

I never asked for anyone's opinion on my character build. I built him to RP a pro wrestler and annoy my DM. Period.

The point of the thread has already been explicitly stated. If you wish to actually post a comparative build I would love to see it, but I am not here to showcase my own build.

[IZ42]

Wait guys, I got this! Just okay Pun-Pun, it's obvious that he's the best at this! What were you thinking, Necromancy, for using such an underpowered thing like a Martial?

There's really no need to bash this dude's build just because he did it using a class built for grappling just to prove that it's easier to get big numbers than people think. Get off your Ice Assassin Aleax Simalcrum Half-Neutronium Golem Half-Dragon High Horse and let the martials have a cool build without immediately suggesting they instead be a wizard because they're 'better' or higher tier.

[Red Fel]

No, the point is that you're trying to hijack a thread with some off topic irrelevant crap. Your opinion of how a class stacks up to your theorycraft optimizing is about as useful as ...... Well I'm sure you get the picture

That's wholly unnecessary, cool off. Jorm was expressing an opinion, and a not unreasonable one, that people seem to post builds to say "Look what I can do, the game is broken," when in reality it's not that amazing that a character can do that. Others then chimed in to point out that, yes, if you take a character and devote all resources to doing the thing, you can do the thing; others can do it too, sometimes with less investment. As others have said, it's not a case of "game broken," so much as "game functioning as intended."

If you wanted kudos for using the class and features designed around grappling for their intended purpose, you're not likely to find them. These boards can be somewhat unforgiving. Now, if you did the same thing with, say, a Ranger, you'd certainly have my attention, at least.

I never asked for anyone's opinion on my character build.

Then you shouldn't have posted it. Seriously, it's that simple. If I post a picture of a cat with an amusing caption, I am indirectly asking everyone to talk about it. Whether they do or don't will likely depend upon their strong feelings one way or the other concerning feline literacy.

I built him to RP a pro wrestler and annoy my DM. Period.

The point of the thread has already been explicitly stated. If you wish to actually post a comparative build I would love to see it, but I am not here to showcase my own build.

Again, you may not have intended to showcase your build, but you did, and now we're responding to it.

And I mean this next part sincerely - best of luck telling people to get back on topic. This forum is infamous for its digressions. My advice, just sit back and listen - all sorts of interesting things come up when we start going off on tangents.

[Snowbluff]

I never asked for anyone's opinion on my character build. I built him to RP a pro wrestler and annoy my DM. Period.

The point of the thread has already been explicitly stated. If you wish to actually post a comparative build I would love to see it, but I am not here to showcase my own build.

Wait... those two statements are in conflict. Are you or are you not showing us your build?

As for the druid, I'll see what I can dig up. I will point out that the druid has ready access to a good size bonus to Str, which doubles up on itself to give a size bonus directly to CMB. If you can find a huge animal with the grab ability, you can shapechange into that for the +4 from the grab ability. I'd rather not make a whole build from scratch, but I can point you in the right direction to make an even more annoying build.

Additionally, you would be able to cast spells on yourself, including Bless and Heroism if you're a samsaran. I'm not really the kind of guy who likes to rely on potions/custom items or exterior buffs when showcasing a build.

[Psyren]

"Optimizing heavily" might not have been quite the right phrasing; "focusing heavily" is better. He's got 20 levels in class that essentially does nothing but grapple, several feats, multiple magic items and buff spells. He's dedicated himself to one thing, and he's good at it. Game functioning as intended; carry on.

I'm cool with this.

I remember there being a Druid build that could get their CMB/CMD in this range. Then you could also do other things. You should try that next.

Well, of course a Druid is going to out-grapple a monk, or at the very least achieve parity while also having many other things in its favor. It's a druid.

The point here is that martials can grapple nearly everything in the book with a modicum of optimization, and without being spellcasters - unlike 3.5, where you needed to count as Gargantuan to even think of grappling the really big stuff. "Must be this tall to wrestle."

He can push the numbers further, too. Grabbing Style + Dan Bong in his off hand will get him an additional +2 untyped. Combat Style Master to switch to Kraken Style as a free action, or using MoMS instead of Tetori, will get him an additional +2 to maintain the grapple. There's no luck, circumstance or competence bonuses in his build either.

[Jormengand]

No, the point is that you're trying to hijack a thread with some off topic irrelevant crap. Your opinion of how a class stacks up to your theorycraft optimizing is about as useful as ...... Well I'm sure you get the picture

Hit points are not theorycrafting optimisation. Solo tactics is a third level inquisitor class feature, that's not theorycrafting optimisation. Elf wizards with - le gasp - longbows? Jeez, really bringing out the TO with that one. If you didn't want your build to be discussed, why post it? This thread isn't to talk about the build, then what is it FOR?

[Platymus Pus]

Slight problem against the great wyrm red dragon though. Antimagic field. If the dragon has it up you have no chance of grappling it.

Would you really want to grapple something that can still attack you while grappling?

[IZ42]

Monks can attack while grappling too.

[Elderand]

Would you really want to grapple something that can still attack you while grappling?

I've always been of the opinion that the best way to deal with a dragon is to do so from a couple planes away if you must deal with it at all.