Optimized Elminster?

[ahenobarbi]

Hello Playground. I wanted to include a cameo of Elminster in a session but with that comes potential of PCs attempting to off him.

I want to prepare for that by printing his stats just in case so I can (hopefully, they're half his level) immobilize them and teleport away (he has reasons to keep them alive).I don't think that's very likely so I don't want to spend much time on making his build sane but using as-printed stats is begging for disaster to happen (yeah, they won't kill him because that's just an Astral Projection but that'd be pretty emabrassing for the legendary dude).

Long story short does anyone have build of Elminster tuned for performance?

[The Insanity]

What edition are you playing? Assuming it's 3.X, there's a fanmade build over on ENWorld that's, I think, more optimized, or at least less unoptimized, than the official version.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...h-protections)

[elonin]

You can build him however you want. The main problem is that the setting developers don't optimize the way that many players do. Also, they are limited to materials out before their work was released.

[GilesTheCleric]

I don't think you need a build, just spells. I'm pretty sure he has 9ths in every posted statblock, and saying he has either cast Contingency or has Craft Contingent Spell seems reasonable. Contingent Celerity ("foes take aggressive actions against me" or something. DM fiat it if your players are tricky; don't overthink it), Time Stop, then whatever he wants to do.

[ahenobarbi]

I don't think you need a build, just spells. I'm pretty sure he has 9ths in every posted statblock, and saying he has either cast Contingency or has Craft Contingent Spell seems reasonable. Contingent Celerity ("foes take aggressive actions against me" or something. DM fiat it if your players are tricky; don't overthink it), Time Stop, then whatever he wants to do.

That's plan B. I don't want to invest much but if someone else did the work there is no reason not to use it :)

You can build him however you want. The main problem is that the setting developers don't optimize the way that many players do. Also, they are limited to materials out before their work was released.

Yup, if I had more time I'd love to but it's a minor detail (but if players hang onto it it could become a minor problem) and I have non-trivial work to do elsewhere so I'd rather not (right now).

What edition are you playing? Assuming it's 3.X, there's a fanmade build over on ENWorld that's, I think, more optimized, or at least less unoptimized, than the official version.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...h-protections)

Yup. 3.5. Thanks.

[Arcanist]

Yup. 3.5. Thanks.

Consider replacing one of those feats with Initiate of Mystra since he qualifies and that is a great feat. Hell, replacing 21 of those Wizard levels with Mystic Theurge levels so he can call on Divine spells if he needs him. Throw him Alternate Spell Source to show how good he is with his magic, Divine Metamagic so he can use his Turnings for something other than the occasional Lich (where his success will be slim on that note).

That build still uses Intuit Direction for pete's sake

[AnonymousPepper]

I think the ENworld version is as nearly-optimized as you can get while still staying true to Elminster's character. Like, if you were to remove the Rogue, Cleric, and Fighter levels, you're removing actual, established, and personally important parts of his story. Dropping those would essentially make him no longer Elminster Aumar. You could argue for replacing some of his Wiz levels with Mystic Theurge though.

As for his domains, I'm not sure if they're listed, but every one of Mystra's fits him, so you can't really go wrong with picking them.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Ah Ed Greenwoods Mary Sue fireball chucker isnt fit to shine Mordekainens Staff of the Magi

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The class level build of Fighter 1/ Rogue 2/ Cleric 3/ Wizard 24/ Archmage 5 is mostly fine, take advantage of those Cleric levels and give him Initiate of Mystra so he can still cast spells in AMF and maybe switch those to Cloistered Cleric. Consider exchanging most of his Wizard levels for Mystic Theurge 10, Paragnostic Apostle 5, and maybe Divine Oracle 4, in which case you should swap Rogue's Evasion for Spell Reflection in CM. Consider working in Abjurant Champion 5, in which case he would have only one Wizard level and four Paragnostic Apostle. So we're looking at a Fighter 1/ Rogue 2/ Cloistered Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Divine Oracle 4/ Paragnostic Apostle 4/ Archmage 5, but not taken in that order. He could have used early entry shenanigans for MT and just used retraining or Psychic Reformation to get rid of it.

His official feats are pretty bad. You can say he visited the Frog God's Fane detailed in CS so Divine Oracle doesn't cost you a feat. You'll want Practiced Spellcaster at least for Wizard, and definitely include Persistent Spell, along with Initiate of Mystra. Invisible spell would be a good idea, and this Wizard variant can get him Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, or just put it on his Fighter bonus feat. He doesn't need any of those item creation feats, say he had them and made a Simulacrum(s) of himself, then retrained or Psychic Reformationed them, so he can just get his Simulacrum to contribute the necessary feats for making magic items without personally having those feats.

With Practiced Spellcaster twice and a Bead of Karma his Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment will be at +5, so none of his items should be any higher than that. He can cast (Invisible) Greater Luminous Armor in place of Bracers of Armor, and use Magic Vestment on it for a +18 armor bonus with Abjurant Champion. He can also use Persistent Shield with Magic Vestment for a +14 Shield bonus. Persistent Bite of the Werecreature removes the need for an Amulet of Natural Armor. He can add a Deflection bonus to AC to any other ring he owns (MIC p234), the same goes for adding ability score bonuses to other items. He can cast Superior Resistance for a +6 to saves, Energy Immunity x5 for immunity to all five energy types, and even get a Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power to only spend two 6th level Cleric slots per day on all six of those....

[Maglubiyet]

Ah Ed Greenwoods Mary Sue fireball chucker isnt fit to shine Mordekainens Staff of the Magi

ROFL. I read some of those Mary Sue chronicles -- painfully obvious wish fulfillment.

[Arcanist]

The class level build of Fighter 1/ Rogue 2/ Cleric 3/ Wizard 24/ Archmage 5 is mostly fine, take advantage of those Cleric levels and give him Initiate of Mystra so he can still cast spells in AMF and maybe switch those to Cloistered Cleric. Consider exchanging most of his Wizard levels for Mystic Theurge 10, Paragnostic Apostle 5, and maybe Divine Oracle 4, in which case you should swap Rogue's Evasion for Spell Reflection in CM. Consider working in Abjurant Champion 5, in which case he would have only one Wizard level and four Paragnostic Apostle. So we're looking at a Fighter 1/ Rogue 2/ Cloistered Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Divine Oracle 4/ Paragnostic Apostle 4/ Archmage 5, but not taken in that order. He could have used early entry shenanigans for MT and just used retraining or Psychic Reformation to get rid of it.

His official feats are pretty bad. You can say he visited the Frog God's Fane detailed in CS so Divine Oracle doesn't cost you a feat. You'll want Practiced Spellcaster at least for Wizard, and definitely include Persistent Spell, along with Initiate of Mystra. Invisible spell would be a good idea, and this Wizard variant can get him Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, or just put it on his Fighter bonus feat. He doesn't need any of those item creation feats, say he had them and made a Simulacrum(s) of himself, then retrained or Psychic Reformationed them, so he can just get his Simulacrum to contribute the necessary feats for making magic items without personally having those feats.

With Practiced Spellcaster twice and a Bead of Karma his Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment will be at +5, so none of his items should be any higher than that. He can cast (Invisible) Greater Luminous Armor in place of Bracers of Armor, and use Magic Vestment on it for a +18 armor bonus with Abjurant Champion. He can also use Persistent Shield with Magic Vestment for a +14 Shield bonus. Persistent Bite of the Werecreature removes the need for an Amulet of Natural Armor. He can add a Deflection bonus to AC to any other ring he owns (MIC p234), the same goes for adding ability score bonuses to other items. He can cast Superior Resistance for a +6 to saves, Energy Immunity x5 for immunity to all five energy types, and even get a Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power to only spend two 6th level Cleric slots per day on all six of those....

Also make him Custom robes to include the effects of a Vest of the Archmagi (MIC) and Vestments of Steadfast Spellcasting (PlH). Alter the Vest to allow him to sacrifice divine spells in addition to Arcane to heal himself. While I disagree on having the cheese of using Psychic Reformation, I highly encourage making him atleast a 5th level Wizard, Giving him Loner (trade that familiar for a feat) and taking Craft Wondrous Items, Craft Epic Wondrous Items, and Craft Staff since none of his items seem like magical weapons or anything special if he uses such a weapon.

ROFL. I read some of those Mary Sue chronicles -- painfully obvious wish fulfillment.

Going to need a link on this.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Going to need a link on this.

Mary Sue is basically the author's favorite character. Usually the story exists for the sake of a story, and the characters happen to be the individuals involved in it. With a Mary Sue, the story exists for the sake of illustrating how awesome Mary Sue is, and all the other characters are only there to emphasize that. Although I think Elminster is more of a God Mode Sue at times. Neither type of story really suits my interests, so I've never read any of the Forgotten Realms novels.

[Akal Saris]

Also make him Custom robes to include the effects of a Vest of the Archmagi (MIC) and Vestments of Steadfast Spellcasting (PlH). Alter the Vest to allow him to sacrifice divine spells in addition to Arcane to heal himself. While I disagree on having the cheese of using Psychic Reformation, I highly encourage making him atleast a 5th level Wizard, Giving him Loner (trade that familiar for a feat) and taking Craft Wondrous Items, Craft Epic Wondrous Items, and Craft Staff since none of his items seem like magical weapons or anything special if he uses such a weapon.



Going to need a link on this.

It's been a long time, but I recall 'Elminister: the Making of a Mage' was a pretty solid example of Mary Sue style writing. Elminister is royalty but his family and friends are killed by an evil wizard and he becomes a thief, then the goddess Mystra saves him, but she turns him into a woman to learn their troubles, so as Elmara he is a cleric until his lover teaches him arcane magic, and then he turns back into a man and beats the evil wizard, or something. The book's decent if you don't roll your eyes too much at it, honestly :P

Personally, I always liked Elminister as a character, because he's an obvious DM-as-NPC type character, and I had those too in my early D&D campaigns. I find it comforting that I'm not the only one who has made that type of silly character :P I eventually used Elminister a few times in my own FR games to poke a bit of fun at the "powerful wizard gives low level adventurers a quest" cliche, and my players enjoyed it at that.

To stay on topic, in 3.5, Elminister has a custom escape spell that is a combination teleport+contingency. So you can have him use that if the PCs attack him. See: http://realmofadventure.wikia.com/wi...er%27s_evasion

[elonin]

Consider replacing one of those feats with Initiate of Mystra since he qualifies and that is a great feat. Hell, replacing 21 of those Wizard levels with Mystic Theurge levels so he can call on Divine spells if he needs him. Throw him Alternate Spell Source to show how good he is with his magic, Divine Metamagic so he can use his Turnings for something other than the occasional Lich (where his success will be slim on that note).

That build still uses Intuit Direction for pete's sake

Yikes. I'd just call those ranks survival and call it a day. Has this character been written about in such detail that the skill ranks really need to be fleshed out? When first reading your comment, your comment about mystic theurge caused a train wreck in my head. Then I came back to it and realized that this character has already paid most of the down side of that prc.

[Bullet06320]

The class level build of Fighter 1/ Rogue 2/ Cleric 3/ Wizard 24/ Archmage 5 is mostly fine, take advantage of those Cleric levels and give him Initiate of Mystra so he can still cast spells in AMF and maybe switch those to Cloistered Cleric. Consider exchanging most of his Wizard levels for Mystic Theurge 10, Paragnostic Apostle 5, and maybe Divine Oracle 4, in which case you should swap Rogue's Evasion for Spell Reflection in CM. Consider working in Abjurant Champion 5, in which case he would have only one Wizard level and four Paragnostic Apostle. So we're looking at a Fighter 1/ Rogue 2/ Cloistered Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Divine Oracle 4/ Paragnostic Apostle 4/ Archmage 5, but not taken in that order. He could have used early entry shenanigans for MT and just used retraining or Psychic Reformation to get rid of it.

His official feats are pretty bad. You can say he visited the Frog God's Fane detailed in CS so Divine Oracle doesn't cost you a feat. You'll want Practiced Spellcaster at least for Wizard, and definitely include Persistent Spell, along with Initiate of Mystra. Invisible spell would be a good idea, and this Wizard variant can get him Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, or just put it on his Fighter bonus feat. He doesn't need any of those item creation feats, say he had them and made a Simulacrum(s) of himself, then retrained or Psychic Reformationed them, so he can just get his Simulacrum to contribute the necessary feats for making magic items without personally having those feats.

With Practiced Spellcaster twice and a Bead of Karma his Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment will be at +5, so none of his items should be any higher than that. He can cast (Invisible) Greater Luminous Armor in place of Bracers of Armor, and use Magic Vestment on it for a +18 armor bonus with Abjurant Champion. He can also use Persistent Shield with Magic Vestment for a +14 Shield bonus. Persistent Bite of the Werecreature removes the need for an Amulet of Natural Armor. He can add a Deflection bonus to AC to any other ring he owns (MIC p234), the same goes for adding ability score bonuses to other items. He can cast Superior Resistance for a +6 to saves, Energy Immunity x5 for immunity to all five energy types, and even get a Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power to only spend two 6th level Cleric slots per day on all six of those....

ive seen one version that lists him as Arcmage 7, but I would add in magic missle mage based on I think it was the old grey box set or maybe the shadowdale adventure that lists him being able to cast 9 magic missle per casting, possibly also the enhance spell metamagic feat

[Arcanist]

ive seen one version that lists him as Arcmage 7, but I would add in magic missle mage based on I think it was the old grey box set or maybe the shadowdale adventure that lists him being able to cast 9 magic missle per casting, possibly also the enhance spell metamagic feat

I demand to see this so I can find the person who did this and yell at them (or at least send them a charming e-mail).

[squiggit]

Provided that entry actually exists, I could imagine it being there as a subtle joke to the OPness of characters like that.

[Asteron]

I don't remember exactly what the prerequisites for Dweomerkeeper are, but perhaps give him some levels in that? Also, Incantatrix... ya know, to complete the Mary Sue image.

[Arcanist]

I don't remember exactly what the prerequisites for Dweomerkeeper are, but perhaps give him some levels in that? Also, Incantatrix... ya know, to complete the Mary Sue image.

This is a good idea and should be heeded. I mean, he does qualify (both in fluff and mechanics). I mean if we're shooting for the moon on this one, he might very well be a Fighter 1 / Rogue 2 / Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 11 / Dweomerkeeper 10 / Archmage 5

It's a very sloppy and shoddy build, but it seems to fit the most.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Never, ever use more than ten levels of Mystic Theurge, you would be better off just alternating between any two single-progression spellcasting prestige classes instead.

You can't give him Incantatrix because it adds a prohibited school, and Big E can cast spells from any school of magic.

I'll agree that Dweomerkeeper is quite possibly the most fitting prestige class you could give him.

Abjurant Champion + Persistent Divine Power will be almost necessary for fixing his Wizard caster level, and Abjurant Champion alone adds +10 to his AC, on top of Quickening all his 3rd level and lower abjurations for free.

[Arcanist]

Never, ever use more than ten levels of Mystic Theurge, you would be better off just alternating between any two single-progression spellcasting prestige classes instead.

You can't give him Incantatrix because it adds a prohibited school, and Big E can cast spells from any school of magic.

I'll agree that Dweomerkeeper is quite possibly the most fitting prestige class you could give him.

Abjurant Champion + Persistent Divine Power will be almost necessary for fixing his Wizard caster level, and Abjurant Champion alone adds +10 to his AC, on top of Quickening all his 3rd level and lower abjurations for free.

Is there an Epic progression for Dweomerkeeper? He could always have taken up another level in Fighter. It wouldn't be TOO horrific.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is there an Epic progression for Dweomerkeeper? He could always have taken up another level in Fighter. It wouldn't be TOO horrific.

This Epic Dweomerkeeper is based on the 3.0 version of the class, it's not exactly valid any more, but its bonus epic feat every four levels after 9th should stick. Mantle of Spells should improve at every odd-numbered class level, Supernatural Spell should gain an additional use at every even-numbered class level, and of course it will continue progressing your spellcasting. Easy enough.

[Douglas]

Like, if you were to remove the Rogue, Cleric, and Fighter levels, you're removing actual, established, and personally important parts of his story. Dropping those would essentially make him no longer Elminster Aumar.

Of course, those levels were established back when 2e's dual classing was the mechanic governing them, and it was actually a fairly potent way to build a character. In 3.5 they are mostly dead weight, and I don't think it would be out of line to say that he had them a while ago but has since used the retraining and rebuilding rules to get rid of (most of) them.

[Grollub]

why would you need to optimize him?? The way Ed Greenwood laid him out, with his contingencies.. its impossible to kill him.

He's got a "hidey-hole" in another plane, that is impervious to anything, and he reforms there.

[AnonymousPepper]

Of course, those levels were established back when 2e's dual classing was the mechanic governing them, and it was actually a fairly potent way to build a character. In 3.5 they are mostly dead weight, and I don't think it would be out of line to say that he had them a while ago but has since used the retraining and rebuilding rules to get rid of (most of) them.

I do. He still uses those skills, and they're relevant parts of his character. Like, if you spent your entire early life hunting the illegitimate rulers' men in the wilderness (the fighter levels) and in the streets (the rogue levels), you're not just going to forget about all of that, anyway. Leave the retraining rules to the murderhobo PCs, not established, canon-important characters.

[Bullet06320]

I demand to see this so I can find the person who did this and yell at them (or at least send them a charming e-mail).

for the life of me, I cant find the original source, must've been someone's homebrew version or a typo that has since been fixed

Of course, those levels were established back when 2e's dual classing was the mechanic governing them, and it was actually a fairly potent way to build a character. In 3.5 they are mostly dead weight, and I don't think it would be out of line to say that he had them a while ago but has since used the retraining and rebuilding rules to get rid of (most of) them.

re training is always a good possibility for the best optimized version, I might keep the rogue levels, and add arcane trickster levels, its just seems right, Elminster can be mischevious, and fits they way I see him anyways

He's got a "hidey-hole" in another plane, that is impervious to anything, and he reforms there.

according to realmspace, he has one on the moon

[atemu1234]

Come on, we can do better than the original.

I'd go with Wizard 10 / Cleric 10 / Initiate of Mystra 10 / Mystic Theurge 5 / Archmage 5. That's level fourty, and a damn good one at that. If you dislike it, replace Mystic Theurge and Archmage with Incantatrix levels. If you want level thirty, literally just go straight wizard.

[Clistenes]

ROFL. I read some of those Mary Sue chronicles -- painfully obvious wish fulfillment.

Elminster always wins, is always right, goes where he wants and does what he wants and is more awesome, poweful, cunning and smart than anybody else. And he is the favourite servant of the most powerful goddess in the pantheon, who is also his lover and mentor. And he commands the Chosen who control the Harpers and the Heralds, who pull the strings of power in all Faerun.

I could tolerate Elminster if he were a likeable, sympathetic character, but the problem is, he isn't: He's manipulative and arrogant. He's like a teen self-insert: "I can be as arrogant and naughty as I want, because I'm better and awesomer than anybody else."

[TrollCapAmerica]

He was only OP in 2nd ed because Greenwood was allowed to write his own FR fanfics.

That gets taken away in 3rd and he's just another Wizard thats not as good as Mordekainen.

The other major problem is that he is put together by the "House". He was stated by WOTC based on a baseline universe where S&B Fighter healbot Clerics and Blaster Wizards are not just the norm but are considered pretty strong Elmey doesn't get off his duff and handle all the problems in the world because in his version of it High level Wizards take spell focus Evocation and spam Meteor Swarm not an optimized one where our Iot7fV already won last week through creative use of corn craft (basketweaving) and Gate

[Arcanist]

why would you need to optimize him?? The way Ed Greenwood laid him out, with his contingencies.. its impossible to kill him.

Arcane Mastery and Reaving Dispel Magic makes all of those contingencies mine now because Elminster only has a 29th caster level at max. If we do rework Elminster, can we at least make him immune to spells like Reaving Dispel Magic, and other Dispelling type spells... And MAYBE make him immune to Disjunction if we have to? I find it highly disappointing to know that I could just ruin all of his defenses as a 20th level character.

He's got a "hidey-hole" in another plane, that is impervious to anything, and he reforms there.

Elminster has the "magical" ability to pick up his toys and leave. It's a smart tactic, but frankly I'd prefer having ANY Epic spells known over that.