Draconic missing character

[Temennigru]

I was looking into draconic writing to bring something extra into the campaign, but I noticed the number 0 was not defined in the official draconic romanization chart (draconomicon: chromatic dragons, page 24). They just show A-Z, 1-9, so I'm guessing they forgot 0.

How would one represent 0 in draconic? Did they ever publish an errata?

[Beta Centauri]

I was looking into draconic writing to bring something extra into the campaign, but I noticed the number 0 was not defined in the official draconic romanization chart (draconomicon: chromatic dragons, page 24). They just show A-Z, 1-9, so I'm guessing they forgot 0.

How would one represent 0 in draconic? Did they ever publish an errata?

Maybe dragons don't have a concept of zero. It isn't entirely intuitive and to a species focused on possession the concept of nothing might seem too horrible to contemplate, let alone give a simple name to.

Really though, if it's not in that book you should feel free to make it up. Avoiding using it in your game might be an interesting challenge.

[Cazero]

A stack of 0 objects sounds kinda silly. You would rather say that there is no stack/object, and wouldn't need a symbol for the number 0. The actual uses of 0 outside of mathematics are kinda limited, and you should be able to avoid them easily.

[Temennigru]

How would I write multiples of 10 then?

[goto124]

'Two tens' for 20, 'three hundreds' for 300?

[Temennigru]

'Two tens' for 20, 'three hundreds' for 300?

There is no 10. Only 1-9

[Andezzar]

So dragons cannot do good maths, so what?

[Temennigru]

So dragons cannot do good maths, so what?

The language is incomplete. INCOMPLEEEEEEEEEEEETE

[TheCountAlucard]

Either that, or they use tallies, or really any number of ways to count that don't use zero.

Seriously. We've had zero for so long that we can scarcely imagine a math system without it, but the truth is that zero is something we came up with, and there were people and math and counting before there was zero.

[Temennigru]

Either that, or they use tallies, or really any number of ways to count that don't use zero.

Seriously. We've had zero for so long that we can scarcely imagine a math system without it, but the truth is that zero is something we came up with, and there were people and math and counting before there was zero.

That is, until people figured out you could count to 10

[Lacco]

Maybe they don't have a decimal system. We also use sometimes the octal/hexadecimal systems...

[Temennigru]

One of the possibilities for 0 is this

[Tysha]

I was looking into draconic writing to bring something extra into the campaign, but I noticed the number 0 was not defined in the official draconic romanization chart (draconomicon: chromatic dragons, page 24). They just show A-Z, 1-9, so I'm guessing they forgot 0.

How would one represent 0 in draconic? Did they ever publish an errata?

I don't know about an errata, but this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dr...con/117680.jpg is on the Wizards site :)

[Temennigru]

I don't know about an errata, but this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dr...con/117680.jpg is on the Wizards site :)

Merci beaucoup!

[Lord Raziere]

That is, until people figured out you could count to 10

You mean the 9-1, the Second one after nine? What a weird way of counting! Why don't you simply say one nine and a one? or One-Nina-One? I can share my way of counting with you! 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, 1-9-1, 1-9-2, 1-9-3, 1-9-4, 1-9-5....

[goto124]

Maybe not even that. Just tallies or bones or something.

The 0 in 10 is just a representation of ten. You could easily write X (Roman numeral) or \\\\\\\\\\ (ten tallies) to show ten.

If you need to write 'ten' in the draconic language, go letter by letter. T-E-N!

I like the idea of a language not having a certain number, if only to make the players wonder 'why are we still missing a zero?' :P

[Tysha]

Merci beaucoup!

You're welcome. First time I've joined a forum just to post a little helpful draconic! :D

[Maglubiyet]

I don't know about an errata, but this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dr...con/117680.jpg is on the Wizards site :)

Darn, I was kind of liking the idea of dragons not having a zero because of their psychology.

They could've used a base-9 numbering system. Which, incidentally, counts like:
...8, 9, 11, 12, 13...19, 21, 22

Would've been a great way to trick players translating a draconic script. "It says to push the 35th brick." But in a base-9 system, 35 = 38 in base-10.

[Andezzar]

Either that, or they use tallies, or really any number of ways to count that don't use zero.

Seriously. We've had zero for so long that we can scarcely imagine a math system without it, but the truth is that zero is something we came up with, and there were people and math and counting before there was zero.

Imagining math without a neutral element (whether additive or multiplicative) is not that easy. The erratum debunked that theory, but it could also be that dragons always write null/zero/squat/etc. if they mean the additive neutral element.

[Surpriser]

As for representation of larger numbers, another way would be multiplying:
10 = "2-5"
100 = "4-5-5" or "2-2-5-5"

Now, I know that there are a lot of problems with that approach - notably, prime numbers and non-uniqueness. But aren't dragons supposed to have a lot of int? Maybe that's why...

And imagine the joy of your players when they try to decipher draconic numbers

EDIT: In fact, simply identifying a number with its prime factorization might be enough for a number system feeling completely alien. And yes, that means that dragons need to memorize a lot of symbols for their digits or resort to cheating via addition.

[Lord Torath]

Darn, I was kind of liking the idea of dragons not having a zero because of their psychology.

They could've used a base-9 numbering system. Which, incidentally, counts like:
...8, 9, 11, 12, 13...19, 21, 22

Would've been a great way to trick players translating a draconic script. "It says to push the 35th brick." But in a base-9 system, 35 = 38 in base-10.

But why would they come up with Base 9? We use base 10 because we have 10 fingers (or at least that's the general understanding). What reason would dragons have for picking 9?

Also, I think you mixed up your conversion. Base-9 38 = Base-10 35, not the reverse.

EDIT: In fact, simply identifying a number with its prime factorization might be enough for a number system feeling completely alien. And yes, that means that dragons need to memorize a lot of symbols for their digits or resort to cheating via addition.

So counting from 1 to 10: 1, 2, 3, 2-2, 5, 2-3, 7, 2-2-2, 3-3, 2-5

[nedz]

How would I write multiples of 10 then?

You could still have 10 even without a 0 — OK you probably still need a symbol, but you could substitute letters.

Consider our calendar: The years 10 AD etc. exist, but there is no year 0, 1 AD follows from 1 BC

[Milodiah]

If I recall correctly, some ancient cultures ended up with a base-12 counting system because they counted the joints of the fingers rather than the fingers on the hand. Or base-14 if they went for the thumb, too.

It's not that base-10 is the universal system that definitely has to happen. It's that we live in a world that IS base-10, so it kinda strains our brain to imagine something different being possible. We could have just as easily ended up with a base-5 if we decided "only one hand at a time".

Also, agreed. We're so stuck in the Arabic numeral system that it seems difficult to express "10" without "0". But the Romans did it just fine, as mentioned earlier. X.

(Also, if Roman numerals seem unintuitive, try out their calendar.)

[Surpriser]

So counting from 1 to 10: 1, 2, 3, 2-2, 5, 2-3, 7, 2-2-2, 3-3, 2-5

Exactly. To add some more detail:
- The absence of something (i.e. "zero") could be represented by a special pre- or suffix to the missing item(s). So: "I have no treasure" == "Treasure-no", "Six crowns are missing" == "2-3 crowns-no"

- Shamefully, eventually dragons will forget some of those pesky prime numbers. "I own ... What was the name of the number 3 less than 2-2-2-5-5-5 again?" In that case, dragons could simply substitute an addition instead: "Anyway, I own 2-2-3-83-plusone earrings"

- To avoid endless repetitions ("2-2-2-2-2-2-2-..." simply does not sound impressive), there could be a special syllable for exponentiation. "You will pay me 2-"up"-2-2-3-"down"-3 gold pieces or I will devour you!"

That will definitely underline the immense intelligence of dragons if they are capable of doing prime factorizations in their head just like someone else might calculate the sum of two numbers.

Amazing where you can arrive from simply removing a 0...

[Milodiah]

...now I understand why dragons just have a hoard of stuff.

Imagine trying to audit that massive pile of swag with such an unwieldy counting system.

[Surpriser]

...now I understand why dragons just have a hoard of stuff.

Imagine trying to audit that massive pile of swag with such an unwieldy counting system.

Oh, that is just a matter of familiarization and having an Int up in the stratosphere.

[Andezzar]

...now I understand why dragons just have a hoard of stuff.

Imagine trying to audit that massive pile of swag with such an unwieldy counting system.

Ever seen a tax collector near a dragon's hoard? I guess dragons do have an IRS. They call it Incoming Repast Service though.

[Joe the Rat]

Well, I just spend the last 10 minutes searching out images of dragons and their feet.

Apparently D&D dragons are 4-toed. As such, left to their own devices, they'd probably have devised a base-8 numbering system. No idea why they have a 9 though. Probably pentadactylocentrism on the part of the artists. ("Oh, look at me. I've got these fancy thumbs for doing fine control of grasped objects.")

Although philosophically, I could see the devising of a base-9 count, as it signifies Io, the ninefold dragon.

[Flickerdart]

French has a similar weirdness where they count by multiples for some numbers - so 91 is "four-twenty eleven" and somehow they managed to have a civilization. For dragons, 10 could just be "nine and one," eleven "nine and two," and so on until 19 which is "two-nine and one." This runs until "nine-nine and nine" (90) at which point you can change to "one-nine-nine and one" for 91, "one-nine-nine and nine and one" for 100, and so on. Once this caps out (nine-nine-nine and nine-nine and nine, or 819) you add another level (one-nine-nine-nine etc etc) and so on.

Yes, it takes a while to describe large numbers, but dragons are super-long-lived creatures who spend days just sleeping on their hoard. They're not in any rush.

[Maglubiyet]

Well, I just spend the last 10 minutes searching out images of dragons and their feet.

Apparently D&D dragons are 4-toed. As such, left to their own devices, they'd probably have devised a base-8 numbering system. No idea why they have a 9 though. Probably pentadactylocentrism on the part of the artists. ("Oh, look at me. I've got these fancy thumbs for doing fine control of grasped objects.")

Although philosophically, I could see the devising of a base-9 count, as it signifies Io, the ninefold dragon.

Four claws per hand, plus tail = 9!