Player vs. Player: Mage-Killer vs. Wizard

[Anlashok]

Atomic Energy would just be a school of magic.

Science would be a better analogy, given their broad bases.

So in this hypothetical all science is banned and warriors go around murdering kids who want to be scientists on the off-chance a high school physics student accidentally invents an atomic bomb.

[Mr.Kraken]

I was checking Weapons of Legacy today, mainly the Hammer of Witches session. According to the weapon's backstory, a cleric of Pelor had an epiphany and came to the conclusion that arcane magic is the origin of all harmful, destructive magic, while divine magic is the origin of all helpful, restorative magic.

That's probably a flawed concept, but it's a different way on viewing the subject.

[Crake]

Especially given the raw power achievable via magic in D&D 3.x, a better analogy to magic would be atomic energy.

Sure, atomic energy is *just* at tool in our world. It is, however, a tool with vast potential for evil as well as good, and the possible downsides (absurdly long-lived hazmat, absurdly destructive weaponry) are so colossal that it is generally considered a good idea to heavily regulate it at the very least . . . and the notion that people would think that *any* level of that power being placed in the hands of mere human beings [see several thousand years of stupidity found in human history for reasons why] isn't a good idea is hardly considered strange, even if you don't happen to personally agree with it.

Or, to put it another way, do you think it is wholly unreasonable to *not* want to give some wide-eyed low level teenage science prodigy (wizard) the keys to the atomic arsenal (magic)? How about another? Or another?? Sure, they might do some good with all that power . . . but . . . all it takes is one bad apple or even simple misstep to cause colossal mayhem. How many fingers do you want in that pie? How big a group do you want in charge of that stuff?

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[Two warriors in a bar are approached by a teenage NPC]

NPC: I'm studying to be a great wizard someday, and I intend to use my powers for good!!! Wanna adventure with me so I can get stronger?

War1: [poleaxes kid with glaive]

War2: What the **** did you do that for? He said he was going to use his (eventual) crazy powers for good??!!

War1: Eh, the odds were in my favor. You really want yet another kid with his finger on that kind of trigger roaming around? Or have you forgotten about all those shadesteel golems we had to fight last week?

War2: . . .



You may not agree with War1, but you must at least agree that his logic is a bit better than "killing all warriors with swords or all blacksmiths with hammers" or something like that.

See, that's more the equivilant of killing everyone who works in atomic physics because they MIGHT one day put together an atomic bomb. Sure they know how to do it, and it might take some effort to gather the resources (in this case, leveling up, which is a very high mortality rate activity), but killing someone because of what they might do is still definitely evil. After all, a low level wizard/sorcerer is hardly capable of atomic levels of power. As someone said, atomic physics would be like a school of magic (probably evocation, since it deals with raw energy), as it is a subsection of science. But even then, being able to wield that equivilent of power would require an incredibly high level. And yes, regulation may be required, and likely enforced by other high level mages, but killing someone because of their potential to be destructive is even more evil. Especially considering when you eventually screw up and dont manage to kill one of the mages, and your actions end up being what turns them toward that destructive path.

Note that justifying something to yourself doesn't change the morality of your actions, just lets your character sleep better at night.

[Karl Aegis]

I still find it weird that given the choice between the Order of the Stick characters Elan and Malack you would attack the chaotic good Human Bard/Dashing Swordsman over the evil Albino Lizardman Vampire Cleric of Nergal even though Elan has arcane magic that helps people rather than destroy things.

[dascarletm]

The whole science/atomic physics vs magic falls short on one thing.

It takes little to no time/effort to have world destroying power with magic.

For a scientist to build a weapon capable of what magic can achieve would take a lot of time, effort, money, and/or man-power. For a wizard to ready destruction on such a magnitude takes... an 8 hour sleep and 1 hour of studying.

The fact that it is so easy to access that power is what makes it feared. Having the power at your fingertips changes the dynamic greatly. I'd go so far as to say it is better analogized as hatred towards organizations with access to WMDs.

[Flickerdart]

For a scientist to build a weapon capable of what magic can achieve would take a lot of time, effort, money, and/or man-power. For a wizard to ready destruction on such a magnitude takes... an 8 hour sleep and 1 hour of studying.

You forget the years of life-threatening training that a wizard would need to get anywhere close to world-shaking power. A scientist might take a few years to build a bomb, but unless someone sends soldiers to stop him, he's not going to have a huge chance of spontaneous death every day of the process.

[dascarletm]

You forget the years of life-threatening training that a wizard would need to get anywhere close to world-shaking power. A scientist might take a few years to build a bomb, but unless someone sends soldiers to stop him, he's not going to have a huge chance of spontaneous death every day of the process.

I didn't forget that in fact; it just isn't relevant to my point. Lethality of gaining said power doesn't really matter in terms of if people will fear/hate it.

Once they have attained their level of understanding they can then decide to ready world shaping power in 9 hours, or ~6 seconds if they have it prepared for the day.

[Flickerdart]

I didn't forget that in fact; it just isn't relevant to my point. Lethality of gaining said power doesn't really matter in terms of if people will fear/hate it.

Once they have attained their level of understanding they can then decide to ready world shaping power in 9 hours, or ~6 seconds if they have it prepared for the day.

It's completely relevant. Because it takes so much work, most people will never meet the world-exploding guy, and given that the world explodes very rarely, most that do meet the world exploding guy won't know he can explode the world. To a random villager or craftsman, a wizard is the crook-nosed guy down the street who can cloudkill the rats in his basement, not a Tippyesque worldshaper.

[dascarletm]

It's completely relevant. Because it takes so much work, most people will never meet the world-exploding guy, and given that the world explodes very rarely, most that do meet the world exploding guy won't know he can explode the world. To a random villager or craftsman, a wizard is the crook-nosed guy down the street who can cloudkill the rats in his basement, not a Tippyesque worldshaper.

I suppose that depends on the campaign world. However, simply because a world which magic is unknown by most can exist, that does not preclude one that has magic more widely known, nor does it diminish the idea that people could hate magic as a concept due to its ability to give singular people massive power in the palm of their hands, relatively unchecked.

[Occasional Sage]

I was checking Weapons of Legacy today, mainly the Hammer of Witches session. According to the weapon's backstory, a cleric of Pelor had an epiphany and came to the conclusion that arcane magic is the origin of all harmful, destructive magic, while divine magic is the origin of all helpful, restorative magic.

That's probably a flawed concept, but it's a different way on viewing the subject.

This cleric of Pelor has led a very sheltered life and read no books on comparative theology. Epiphanies based on shockingly-limited information are worse than useless.