What items do shops stock?

[bullywug]

Hi everyone,
I am running Scales of War for my players and I've run into something I've not had to deal with before. The players want to be able to shop at the stores which I've dealt with before. You go to a blacksmith and he carries all the mundane gear from the players handbook. But what about a magic shop? The PCs are in Brindol and there is a shop there called Red Magic and Sundries. I'd like to allow the PCs to shop there if they'd like but I don't know what items to make available to them. I think I want to limit it to the PHB catalog but I doubt a shop should be carrying a level 30 Potion of Life. I am also curious what it means when it says the Price is "special." I can't seem to find a reference to explain this. Anyhow, your suggestions would be most welcome.
-Bullywug

[obryn]

I'd go with Common are in-stock, Uncommon you'd need to order, and Rare unavailable for purchase.

[Kurald Galain]

I would pick half a dozen items with fun and flashy activated powers (not necessarily strong ones, but ones that have a highly visible effect) and have those for sale. Then add a few boring-but-standard items because the game assumes that all characters have +X weapons and armor where X depends on their level.

[Yakk]

So, one approach to itemization is that you are mostly in charge of picking items for your players.

You determine drops, you determine what is for sale.

Suppose you buy into the common/uncommon/rare system, or your own variant.

Common items should, for the most part, be either for sale or (because there are lots of them), they are something the shopkeeper knows how to get.

Any uncommon or rare items for sale should be items that you have selected to "drop" for your players. So only a very few.

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I'd say that even common items wouldn't be floor to ceiling. Be careful about having magic shops with huge inventories. So much of the stock should be cheap consumables or other do-dads.

Having common items "orderable" is probably good enough, and avoids the "why don't we just steal what we want" stuff.

---

A reasonable system for distributing items:
At each level, for each character, pick an item.
The item's level is (character level+1d4) (or less).
Roll 1d4 to determine item type: 1 (weapon or implement) 2 (armor) 3 (neck) 4 (other) (If they got the exact same item type *last* level, and they don't need 2 of them (ie, rangers with 2 swords, etc), reroll once).

For armor/weapons, quickly work out what kind of item is optimal for the character. Don't give a fighter chainmail unless they are a low-dex tempest fighter.

Now roll 1d6: on a 1-3, pick a common item completely at random. On a 4 pick a random uncommon item. On a 5-6 do the work to find the absolute best uncommon item you can find for that slot and level for that character.

Finally, pick out a rare item for each character within the tier. At some point in the tier, sub an uncommon item for it (while it is within 4 levels of the character).

This gives you your magic treasure budget for the level. These items, while designed for particular PCs, are not locked to said PCs: this is just the collection if items the party finds, they distribute or use them as they wish.

Populate magic shops with said uncommon items sometimes. If you do so, include sufficient treasure to buy said item on top of the usual budget, or have it quest-based (ie, they have a special item they are willing to part with, but only if you do me a favor and find me a fresh laid phoenix egg).

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The goal of the magic shop is a few fold. First, it lets you be lazy -- it provides players a way to fix your itemization "errors" or gaps. Second, it gives the players control over their itemization (to some extent). Third, it can be used as an interesting adventure hook in and of itself.

Making it a generic magic-mart makes the 3rd less interesting. By having common items "on order", itemization gaps can be (over time) fixed. The second issue is something that 4e post-essentials actually moved away from: players identity being driven by internal features, not their christmas tree, is part of the idea that DMs pick items for characters, not players.

[Kurald Galain]

Now roll 1d6: on a 1-3, pick a common item completely at random. On a 4 pick a random uncommon item. On a 5-6 do the work to find the absolute best uncommon item you can find for that slot and level for that character.

I strongly recommend against that. Regardless of rarity, picking any item completely at random is extremely likely to yield an item that is useless.

Why? Because at least 80% of items printed are pretty much useless to any given party.

Don't randomize. Either pick something fun, or pick something good; a random pick will most likely be neither. Let me quote some samples from an earlier thread,

Here, I'll show it to you by drawing a bunch of random items from the Adventurer's Vault (which is one of the best places to draw items from, mind you; drawing from e.g. Dragon mag is going to be much worse). Using random.org for the seed.
(1) wyrmtouched amulet. Marginally useful to dragonborn, vendor trash to everyone else.
(2) black feather of the Raven Queen. Got any RQ worshippers? No, thought not. Even so, this power is nothing to write home about.
(3) direbeast shield. Well, most characters don't use shields, and most that do already need their interrupts for something else. That said, negating a hit once per day is ok.
(4) ghoststrike oil. Hahahahahaha no.
(5) another black feather. Yeah ok, I'll roll again. It's an endless canteen! Fluff item, sell at earliest opportunity.

Wait, let's try this again with the AV2, just to show how silly it gets.

(1) Pincer Shield. Heavy shield only, which rules out most characters; and this is one of those fiddly conditional +1 bonuses that everybody forgets all the time. Pass.
(2) Sharpshooter Wand. Wow, it's one of the few items that's actively detrimental to your character. No, reducing the number of targets of one of your spells is not a good deal. Aside from that, most characters can't use wands anyway.
(3) Chandelier of Revelation. Lair item, adventurers aren't allowed to use those. It boggles me why they're in the book in the first place.
(4) Far Step Amulet. Boosts teleport powers, but unfortunately most characters don't have any of those (because most teleport-related builds are heavily item-dependent and therefore not feasible in a game with random items). Still, clearly the best item on this list.
(5) Queen's Staff. Only works for an arcane lightning blaster, which you probably won't have in the party; it's basically an item for Storm Sorcerers only. Good luck with that.


So yeah, OP. Don't do this to your party please

[DragonBaneDM]

I'm a big fan of giving each of my shop specialties.

For instance, a rustic, halfling owned store back in Fallcrest will have some things like low bonus Gambler's Armor as well as some good luck charms that double as neck slots, but little else besides a spare potion or two.

However, if I'm running a Tiefling-owned shop in the middle of the desert city that used to be the former capital of Bael Turath, you can bet they'll find Infernal items or desert-survival gear.

Also, larger shops will have the ability to send away to various allies or codealers in order to fit specific needs. There's a fiend-owned shop in Sigil that carries next to everything in the Adventurer's Vault and can get in touch with contacts to supply anything else a player might need.

Each magic shop should get your individual attention. Think about what kind of area Red Magic & Sundries would be in. What sort of magic items would be sold to them or would the shop owners have gone to lengths to procure? Can they ask another shop to ship them something they don't have?

[its_all_ogre]

I ran Scales of War and it was great, enjoy!

to the actual question I would make common stuff available, uncommon stuff custom ordered and rare non-purchasable.

consumables can be bought according to level of party/campaign.

also note: the stuff is not there on shelves, you cannot find out where they keep their stock and it is moved in via secret means (which the players do not find out about).
the shop itself is filled with a collection of statues of various materials, nobody is saying they are all golems, we let the PC's assume that is the case.

(this circumvents the "let's steal stuff" option as alluded to by Yakk earlier)
randomising stuff will end up with crap being on offer and also takes time, try finding out what people want first.
I always made players give me a "wish list" for the next 6 levels and I pick the best items from a party and individual basis and tried to ensure everyone for an even split.

however the group always took priority in my list making: it's a team game and the team benefits more when they worked better together than if one person got an item they wanted that did not play well with the rest

Edited to add: this is purely a practical approach with no storyline fluff, i'll leave that to you :)

[obryn]

Also, I just want to give a bit of boilerplate advice re: magic items. Use Inherent Bonuses. Let magic items be cool & interesting, set up the shops however you want, but use inherent bonuses as a backup.

Tracking treasure and loot is exhausting, and IMO the game is improved immeasurably when you don't have to micromanage it. This goes double with players who tend towards the casual end. Cut out the overhead.

[masteraleph]

Also, I just want to give a bit of boilerplate advice re: magic items. Use Inherent Bonuses. Let magic items be cool & interesting, set up the shops however you want, but use inherent bonuses as a backup.

Tracking treasure and loot is exhausting, and IMO the game is improved immeasurably when you don't have to micromanage it. This goes double with players who tend towards the casual end. Cut out the overhead.

Just be aware that the online CB doesn't do it quite right- it should incorporate Masterwork bonuses for armor, but it doesn't.

[Yakk]

A few notes:
1) I boosted item budget by 25% with my random system (1 item per player per level, instead of 0.8 items per player level).

2) 1/2 of the items are random common or uncommon items, but of a "good" weapon type, armor or neck type for a player. These items are probably going to suck, but may have a +1 bonus over the last one they have, and that might be worth it.

3) 1/6s of the items are random "other" slot items.

4) 1/4 items are custom picked uncommon hand/armor/neck items for a given character.

5) The remaining 1/12 are custom picked uncommon "other" slot items for a given character.

6) Rare items are custom-picked by DM, and show up 1/tier/character.

So over 10 levels, each character gets an average of 1 rare item, 2.5 custom-picked primary/secondary/armor/neck items, 0.8 custom-picked "other" uncommon items, 5 random primary/secondary/armor/neck items that are of the right item type but gonzo magic properties (some uncommon, some common), and 1.7 other items, minus 1 (for whatever item the rare item replaces).

If you took 4e essentials advice, each character over 10 levels would get 8 items. 3 uncommon, 1 rare and 4 common.

The biggest problem isn't the "I say pick some items at random", but rather that the number of random items (and their item category) is itself random. Characters can end up with a lack of the magic weapons they want, or have a massive surplus.

That is why I boosted the budget. The 'crappy' uncommon items can be melted down and used to produce 'custom' common items, so at least the level 10 fighter will have up-to-date heavy armor.

And because there is lots of chaos in the system, the fact that a number of items are really custom-designed for characters can look more like "wow" and less like a shopping list. Your paladin is less unlikely to get their "agile plate" they really want, but is far more likely to pick up a suit of plate.

Over 10 levels, P(agile plate) = 1 - (1-1/3*1/4)^10 = 58%
P(some plate) = 1 - (1-1/4)^10 = 94%

Over 10 levels, each character has a 94% chance to get at least 1 magic tool, armor and necklace (of the appropriate type) allocated, and a 58% chance that they will see an uncommon item custom-picked for them by the DM in each slot, and a 93% chance they will see at least 1 uncommon custom picked magic tool/armor/necklace (beyond the rare one).

The same 58% chance applies to an "other" slot.

The point is, this isn't just gonzo "throw some random generation system against the wall", but rather a system that behaves locally random.

With the ability to upgrade items and craft common items, you shouldn't end up with much in the way of crippled characters. They will be using below-level tools some levels, they won't have the ideal tool for the job, and they'll have to do some buying/selling sometimes, but they should be functional.

[Kurald Galain]

If you took 4e essentials advice, each character over 10 levels would get 8 items. 3 uncommon, 1 rare and 4 common.

But you shouldn't. The advice in the DMG is much better.

None of the DMs in my area ended up using the rarity system. Heck, some of WOTC's own design team went on record stating they recommend against the rarity system.

2) 1/2 of the items are random common or uncommon items, but of a "good" weapon type, armor or neck type for a player. These items are probably going to suck,

I really don't understand why you'd want a system that ensures that half of the items you hand out are going to suck.

That is why I boosted the budget. The 'crappy' uncommon items can be melted down and used to produce 'custom' common items, so at least the level 10 fighter will have up-to-date heavy armor.

Considering 95% of all items printed are still uncommon, I'm not sure how that helps. If the aim is to keep everyone at the appropriate level of "pluses", follow Obryn's advice and give inherent bonuses.

It's not about characters being "crippled" or not; it's about giving people cool items.

[NomGarret]

To the original question: I would certainly see padding out a magic shop with randomly determined items. Most of them will be there for flavor, since you aren't expecting the pcs to buy out the whole place. So what if there are boots only good for rogues when there isn't a rogue in your party? No one goes to a clothing store expecting everything to fit a member of their family. As long as there are items >1/2 your party will consider buying, it's a worthwhile stop.

[obryn]

Just be aware that the online CB doesn't do it quite right- it should incorporate Masterwork bonuses for armor, but it doesn't.

Yep. The whole masterwork thing is a math kludge, but it's a critical one.

[Tafkam Hokie]

I'll lob in my system for others to chew on.

Generally speaking, common and uncommon consummables are available for purchase in a town that would support that level of purchase. Back to the OP's question about Brindol...I had Brindol pegged as a high-end heroic tier location in terms of resources. I wouldn't think you could get anything above 10th level there (ditto for Overlook). To get paragon-level items, they would need to go to Nefelus or maybe even Tu'narath later in the series.

Common consummables are also readily available (again depending on the city's resources). Sure, they may not have that +3 kusari-gama you are looking for, but they do have a +3 light war pick and either you or they can cast the 25 gp ritual to transfer the enchantment.

Beyond that, characters would likely need to order a magic item (with a hefty down payment) they wanted to buy.


But then beyond all that, for the love of pete use Inherent Bonuses. So many character builds have one or two items that are core to what they do. Got a charger in the party? They aren't interested in any amulet other than a Badge of the Berzerker all the way up to 30th level. Got a Mark of Storm prone-monkey? They need a level-appropriate lighting flail at all times. Frostcheese Ranger? They had better find a +3 Frost Greatbow the instant they hit 11th level, and keep finding higher level versions for the rest of their career. Teleport specialist, Polearm Momentumer, or most any arcane caster...better have that incisive dagger, staggering greatspear, and staff of ruin show up every five levels.

If anyone in the party has a specific build that relies on one or two magic items (and there are A LOT of those out there), they are going to be somewhere between disappointed and pissed at finding anything else.

So just let them find their lighting flail, sunblade, or vanguard greataxe early on, then let it auto-scale with the inherent bonuses every five levels. Saves you a lot of trouble and the players a lot of disappointment.

I look at it this way. The DMG says you hand out 4 magic items to a 5 person party every level. Over five levels, that is 20 magic items. Over those same five levels, every character needs to upgrade their armor, weapon/implement, and neck slot item. That consumes fifteen of the twenty treasure slots with nothing but boring upgrades that are only there to let them keep up with the arms race. So just hand out the 20 magic items from L1-5 to get everyone started, but then scale back to 1-2 items per level and focus on cool, interesting, and useful items.

As others have said, about 80% of the published magic items are basically garbage and are useless and inferior for any character. Another 10% or so are awesome and critical for certain builds, but useless to anyone else. The few that are left are universally good that most any party could use.

Randomizing magic items (either in treasure piles or in magic shops) isn't a very good idea in 4e. You will spend a lot of effort coming up with the random items and none of the players will appreciate it. Magic items should either be universally good (like an elven chain shirt or diamond cinture) or hand-picked for each character.

[masteraleph]

Actually, I've been contemplating my own version of inherent bonuses (specifically to work with the CB, but also to deal with some of the other issues):

*Players submit a request list
*At level 1+, all players get up to two unsellable Magic [Weapon/Implement] +1s of their choice. That could be swords, daggers, a holy symbol and a sword, ki focus, whatever. At level 6, up to two unsellable Magic [Weapon/Implement] +2s, and so on.
*Also at level 1+, all players get an unsellable Magic Armor +1 and Amulet of Protection +1. Those automatically upgrade as well (this deals with the Masterwork Armor issue in the CB).
*Every level, an item of level +2 and an item of level +3 are given out (this is in accordance with standard IBs)
*If they have a weapon, neck, or armor that they want to substitute for the plain Common one, they can do so. It levels at its x+ level, instead. So a 4+ weapon levels at 4, 9, etc. instead of at 1/6 etc. They can sell the original if they want, but not leveled up versions

This might be a little overpowered, but the goal is to make players really consider whether the magic item they want is worth it, and if it is, hopefully make them pay for it a little bit- effectively, it's bringing in some of the LFR method (where on level up you get an Uncommon of your new level or a Common of level +3). So in Tafkam Hokie's examples, the bow Ranger gets a frost bow +2 at level 8 and +3 at level 13, while he could get a non-frost bow +2 at level 6 and +3 at level 11. Not enough to penalize the build severely, but enough to slow it down a bit. The lightning build (or the guy with a Radiant Staff) gets penalized more severely. Basically, it makes you really think through whether you want a bunch of 4/5+ items in all your slots, or whether it's worth it to get bonuses earlier. There are a few items that don't get as much of an effective penalty as might be nice (I'm looking at you, Badge of the Berserker), but it at least brings slightly more balance in for everyone else.

[way2blaster]

Magic shops is suply and demand. Basic weapons with +1 (1 of each) depending on the weapons of the town guard one or two milatery weapons +1.

The shop keep can create any magic item up to lvl 3(city)/5(large city)/9(metropolis) any thing above that he wil need a recepy and materials to craft. (Basic 3-7 encounter qwest depending on the item)

[DragonBaneDM]

Actually, I've been contemplating my own version of inherent bonuses (specifically to work with the CB, but also to deal with some of the other issues):

*Players submit a request list
*At level 1+, all players get up to two unsellable Magic [Weapon/Implement] +1s of their choice. That could be swords, daggers, a holy symbol and a sword, ki focus, whatever. At level 6, up to two unsellable Magic [Weapon/Implement] +2s, and so on.
*Also at level 1+, all players get an unsellable Magic Armor +1 and Amulet of Protection +1. Those automatically upgrade as well (this deals with the Masterwork Armor issue in the CB).
*Every level, an item of level +2 and an item of level +3 are given out (this is in accordance with standard IBs)
*If they have a weapon, neck, or armor that they want to substitute for the plain Common one, they can do so. It levels at its x+ level, instead. So a 4+ weapon levels at 4, 9, etc. instead of at 1/6 etc. They can sell the original if they want, but not leveled up versions

How does them having unsellable items work out in game? Do those items only work for those specific characters?

[masteraleph]

How does them having unsellable items work out in game? Do those items only work for those specific characters?

If necessary, they can just drop them. The main point is that a) the online CB doesn't handle IBs properly and that b) the IB system doesn't handle items that get upgraded capabilities as they level up. You can fluff them however you want.