Dreamscarred Press Presents: Akashic Mysteries, Thread 2

[Adslahnit]

What is the intended benefit of the basic effect of the Collar of Skilled Instruction?

As far as I am aware, the Aid Another action for skill checks and ability checks has no concrete range listed, so allowing Aid Another to be used upon such checks from 10 feet away hardly seems like an actual advantage.

If it was for Aid Another in combat, I could understand, since that has a somewhat concrete range, but the Collar of Skilled Instruction is specifically only for skill checks and ability checks.

[DrunkenMists]

I have to say; Every time Dreamscarred press puts out something; I become more and more impressed.
I enjoyed the Psionics, Love the Path of War.

And now? I haven't even made it far into reading the Vizer; and I'm already impressed about one ability it has.

Eldritch Insight.
Not the most impressive ability for the class; very dependent on having charge magic items and such in the first place...

But.. I was quickly enamored with the thought of being able to use it with a staff!.
Paizo already did a reasonable bit enough to make this concept useable; But it still had the problem concept that the start of the Vizer Book mentions "On another occasion, I played in a group where the dreaded “15 minute adventuring day” wasn’t just a common occurrence, it was how several of the players honestly thought the game was meant to be played, much to the dismay of the group’s fighter."

It was have your staff recharged and hope for a quiet day; or keep your spells and never recharge your staff.
Not only that; but RaW; it seems to allow you to at the least; use a single essense into a charge item..and use Divine OR arcane magic without UMD checks :d

the only thing that strikes me as odd is how late the path of the crafter gets "At 17th level, the vizier reduces the cost to create
wondrous items, rings, and staves by 25%."

By level 17. you've probally done the majority of crafting (85% of your way to level 20...)
This seems like more an ability to give a lower lever..

[Taveena]

Is the change to Empty Pyramid to make it grant essence rather than require it actually a thing that's happening, or is it something that I just heard suggested a lot and thought it was accepted?

[NineThePuma]

In my never ending quest to find a way to play a Non-Leader (in 4e terms) Initiator, I swung in to take a look at the Pharoah when someone mentioned it offhandedly (along with a statement that the Pharoah was super duper Alpha) and I noticed that, by the wonky writing of the Maneuvers feature, it cannot gain any maneuvers after level 1, because by the way the ability is written it does not have access to any disciplines.

Looking forward to more though.

[Ssalarn]

What is the intended benefit of the basic effect of the Collar of Skilled Instruction?

As far as I am aware, the Aid Another action for skill checks and ability checks has no concrete range listed, so allowing Aid Another to be used upon such checks from 10 feet away hardly seems like an actual advantage.

If it was for Aid Another in combat, I could understand, since that has a somewhat concrete range, but the Collar of Skilled Instruction is specifically only for skill checks and ability checks.

Aid another includes this clause " In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once." Collar of Skilled Instruction is intended to lend some structure, basically putting it in the player's hands that you can always do the desired action within the given area. So, if your GM asks you how exactly you're helping the Rogue pick a lock from the other side of the room while you're also solving a separate puzzle, the answer is "My veil says I can". The base ability's usefulness may vary a bit from table to table depending on playstyle, but so far the veil's been pretty well received, and it does what it's supposed to do.

Is the change to Empty Pyramid to make it grant essence rather than require it actually a thing that's happening, or is it something that I just heard suggested a lot and thought it was accepted?

It's happening.

In my never ending quest to find a way to play a Non-Leader (in 4e terms) Initiator, I swung in to take a look at the Pharoah when someone mentioned it offhandedly (along with a statement that the Pharoah was super duper Alpha) and I noticed that, by the wonky writing of the Maneuvers feature, it cannot gain any maneuvers after level 1, because by the way the ability is written it does not have access to any disciplines.

Looking forward to more though.

I'll double-check the wording on that, but the Pharaoh does list the disciplines it has access to.

[Vhaidara]

I'll double-check the wording on that, but the Pharaoh does list the disciplines it has access to.

Actually, Nine has a point {scrubbed} At level one, you get two maneuvers from Pyramid and 2 from a set of other listed disciplines. However, it never says you have access to them, just that you get them at level 1.

[NineThePuma]

I'll double-check the wording on that, but the Pharaoh does list the disciplines it has access to.

Maneuvers: A pharaoh begins his career with knowledge of two martial maneuvers from the Empty Pyramid discipline and may select two additional maneuvers from the following available disciplines: Empty Pyramid, Golden Lion, Piercing Thunder, and Solar Wind. Once he knows a maneuver, he must ready it before he can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). The pharaoh’s maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when he initiates one. He learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown below. The pharaoh must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered pharaoh level after that, he can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows, but he must always know at least 1 maneuver from the Empty Pyramid discipline for every 4 class levels he possesses. In effect, the pharaoh loses the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. He can choose a new maneuver of any level he likes, and as long as he observes his restriction on the highest-level maneuvers he knows, the pharaoh need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. The pharaoh can swap only a single maneuver at any given level. A pharaoh’s key initiator attribute is Charisma.

Technically, as written, the "available disciplines" are only ale to be selected from at first level. Compare the language used in Warlord:

Maneuvers: A warlord begins his career with knowledge of six martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to him are Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Solar Wind, and Thrashing Dragon. Once he knows a maneuver, he must ready it before he can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). A maneuver usable by warlords is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. His maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and he do not provoke attacks of opportunity when he initiates one. He learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on Table 1-3: The Warlord. The warlord must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. See the Systems and Use chapter for more information.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered warlord level after that, he can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows. In effect, the warlord loses the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. He can choose a new maneuver of any level he likes, as long as he observes his restriction on the highest-level maneuvers he knows. The warlord need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. The warlord can swap only a single maneuver at any given level. A warlord's initiation modifier is Charisma.

Essentially, as written, he starts his career knowing 4 maneuvers from a fairly generous number of disciplines, but doesn't actually have any disciplines available to him. (Pharoah also has the problem of, if you Martial Tradition or Trait away Empty Pyramid for any reason, not being able to learn any maneuvers ever.)

[soulsabre345]

Oh, and I a couple questions posted earlier in the thread that I think got missed in the posts since, so I'm reposting them. I'd still really like to have these answered, just so that when I'm using this veil I don't have to turn to the DM and say I don't know what happens when it breaks.

I have a couple questions about the Crusader's Shield veil. First though, I do love the veil and the options it enables, but it doesn't say what happens when the shield breaks from damage, and if you use it in a space too small for it. So, my questions are;

1. If the shield is destroyed, does the extra damage from that attack go anywhere? (shield has 20 hp, gets hit for 40, does the extra 20 damage hit the user?)
2. If the shield is blocking off a passage, but is destroyed by a burst effect, does the attack proceed past the user or is it halted by the shield? What about a spread effect?
3. If using the shield in a area too small for it (5' high and wide passageway, and you use the basic version which covers a 10' square), does it just fill the area as much as it can, or does it need to be created in a area large enough for it?
4. If there are two veilweavers using the shield, what happens if the shields intersect? (such as two veilweavers side by side and placing it at a 45 degree angle to their sides, making it cross in a x in front and between them)

I also have another set of questions on the Shared Veil feat. How does Shared Veil work when your companion isn't a summon? It's fairly clear how it works if your sharing it once to a companion that isn't going to be there for several days. It's much less clear on if your companion is permanent. Namely;
5. If a Daevic has a Paramour, how often can he share a veil to a Paramour?
6. Can the veil being shared change within the same day?
7. If the veil shared can't be changed within the same day, what happens if say a Vizier has a familiar and veilshifts the veil he's sharing into something else. Can he pick a new veil to share, or does he now have to share the veil he replaced?
8. How do veils with limited uses per day interact with shared veil? As in, if you summoned a zombie with the Dark Lords Ring of Essence Binding , and shared immaculate touch with them and had them heal a party member, what's stopping you from animating a different zombie and doing it again?

[AGrinningCat]

I have to say; Every time Dreamscarred press puts out something; I become more and more impressed.
I enjoyed the Psionics, Love the Path of War.

And now? I haven't even made it far into reading the Vizer; and I'm already impressed about one ability it has.

Eldritch Insight.
Not the most impressive ability for the class; very dependent on having charge magic items and such in the first place...

But.. I was quickly enamored with the thought of being able to use it with a staff!.
Paizo already did a reasonable bit enough to make this concept useable; But it still had the problem concept that the start of the Vizer Book mentions "On another occasion, I played in a group where the dreaded “15 minute adventuring day” wasn’t just a common occurrence, it was how several of the players honestly thought the game was meant to be played, much to the dismay of the group’s fighter."

It was have your staff recharged and hope for a quiet day; or keep your spells and never recharge your staff.
Not only that; but RaW; it seems to allow you to at the least; use a single essense into a charge item..and use Divine OR arcane magic without UMD checks :d

the only thing that strikes me as odd is how late the path of the crafter gets "At 17th level, the vizier reduces the cost to create
wondrous items, rings, and staves by 25%."

By level 17. you've probally done the majority of crafting (85% of your way to level 20...)
This seems like more an ability to give a lower lever..

All of Path of the Crafter's abilities are strangely delayed.

Craft wondrous item you can get as early as 3rd, but Vizer gets it 2 levels later. Same with Forge Ring and Craft Staff. The Vizer gets 1/2 his level to crafting checks, which is nice, but considering the DC is going to be raised by 5 for each missing requirement in item crafting, you (assuming making this without other player's help) either have to get 1 scroll per 1000gp of the item or pay for spellcrafting services. The -25% would come in handy here, but having access to cheaper items if you DID have someone who could help, such as a bard or wizard, would upset early game balance pretty quickly if you had the down time to make it.

Consider the following:
The party rogue wants Boots of Striding and Springing. The relevant bits of this is that it's CL 3rd, costs 5,500gp/2,750gp, requires Longstrider (level 1 druid/ranger/travel spell), and the crafter must have 5 ranks in acrobatics. To create the item, the DC is 5 + CL, so 8. For the sake of argument, we will assume that both crafters (The Wizard and Vizer, below) have an int of 18.

A wizard, at 3rd level, can pick up Craft Wondrous Item. With 3 ranks in spellcraft and his +4 int, the Wizard, at minimum, can roll an 8. However, the Wizard does not have access to a Druid, Ranger, or Cleric that has access to the Travel domain, which means that the DC will increase by 5. He also doesn't have 5 ranks in acrobatics, increasing the DC by 5 again, for a total of 18 DC.
The wizard IS crafting focused, however. He is a universalist/Arcane Crafter with Metacharge(Free crafting feat at 3, +2 to making magic items), and his Familiar is a Valet archetype, which means that it can provide a +2 to craft checks and doubles the GP progress per day (2000gp per 8 hours instead of 1000gp).
All things considered, a Wizard could make the item in 2 days with a +11 to his check and a DC of 18.

A Vizer, at 3rd level, could attempt this, but it's in a weird spot where he's taking a feat that he'll get for free in 2 levels. Oddness aside, let's continue. Like the Wizard, he is crafting focus (Path of the Crafter), and like the wizard, he does not have access to Druid, Ranger, or Cleric/travel spells. Nor does he have 5 ranks in acrobatics. The DC for him is also set to 18, and much like the wizard, he has only 3 ranks in spellcraft and +4 int. Here's a bit of a grey area though: Eldritch Insight says that Vizer treats his Vizer levels as Arcane spell caster for Feats and Abilities. Nothing in here about Caster levels or items. I'll assume that the Vizer DOES count as a CL 3rd for this, otherwise the DC will be at 23 instead of 18.

As of 3rd level, a Vizer gets +1 from his Path, bringing his total up to +8. So a Vizier would have a total of +8 for a DC 18 (or 23) check. You *Might* be able to get away with using Eye of the Oracle since you can free-action it around, but since it requires a constant upkeep, a GM might rule that you can't use it for item crafting since it detracts your focus every 6 seconds. If so, it'll bring it up to a bit more reasonable levels. (+10 with 1 essence invested). However, it'll still take 3 days to complete compared to the Wizard's 2.

This is also assuming the Vizer and Wizard are on equal grounds considering the item creation requirements. If the Wizard has it on his wizard spell list, for a bit of gold he can go out, add it to his spellbook(Copying is cheap as hell, while scrolls are bit more pricy), then be able to drop the DC of the cost by 5. If the Wizard wants to burn another feat, he can take the Arcane Discovery Arcane Builder to gain a +4 to a type of magic item (Potions, Wonderous, etc) and reduce the time it takes by 25%.

This is, of course, assuming you just don't drop the 20/30gp(Spell level x caster level x 10gp) on someone who can cast it to just drop the DC by 5. You do have to find one though, which may become issues in certain campaigns (Pirates, for example, has you spending a ton of time alone on a boat.
---

If I could suggest something for the Vizer, rather than crafting bonuses, how about something close to the Impossible Bloodline 3rd level ability? Bolding mine:

Spontaneous Generation: At 3rd level, you gain Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat. In addition, when you craft a magic item (except a potion, a spell-trigger item, or a spell-completion item), you may ignore one spell prerequisite without increasing the creation DC. You can ignore an additional spell prerequisite at 9th, 15th, and 20th levels.

Being able to ignore item requirements will reduce the DC for the Vizier's item creation, meaning he can ignore spell requirements for the spells. Since the growth goes upwards, at 9th, 15th, and 20th, he'll be able to keep up with items that require multiple spells to create.

[DrunkenMists]

LinkQuoted for Size

Hmm. Right; Wizard get to make, at least arcane spells they can spellbook, easier. But They have a smaller pool of abilities they can produce in a day (aka, spell counts)

a Vizer; could ideally go all day just on veilweaving before touching the Item Creation Stuff. So having a somewhat less easy time does make sense.

I think I might crunch a Creationist Vizer just to see what I can do; compare it to a Wizard of the same style.

[Ssalarn]

Because it's relevant to the conversation, this, is the errata list for the Vizier, and the .pdf will be updated with these changes.

[Milo v3]

Being able to make spell trigger and spell activation items will help my character concept a great deal. Also, is there any chance of a psionic crafter vizier archetype being made in the future? Universal items rather than wondrous. For viziers in high psionic settings.

[stack]

The same crafting feats are used for psionic items as magic items. Universal items are made with craft wonderous already.

[Milo v3]

The same crafting feats are used for psionic items as magic items. Universal items are made with craft wonderous already.

Huh, I thought it they all had different feats like in 3.5e since I recall a player taking the feat that makes those tattoos. This is very good news for my tony stark expy.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Craft Tattoos is a different feat from Craft Potions, but that's the only one.

[NineThePuma]

... oh, right. Being constructive. Someone smacked me about it and I realized I dropped the ball here.

Maneuvers: A pharaoh begins his career with knowledge of four martial maneuvers, at least two of which must be from the Empty Pyramid discipline. The disciplines available to him are Empty Pyramid, Golden Lion, Piercing Thunder, and Solar Wind. Once he knows a maneuver, he must ready it before he can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). The pharaoh’s maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when he initiates one. He learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown below. The pharaoh must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered pharaoh level after that, he can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows, but he must always know at least 1 maneuver from the Empty Pyramid discipline for every 4 class levels he possesses. In effect, the pharaoh loses the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. He can choose a new maneuver of any level he likes, and as long as he observes his restriction on the highest-level maneuvers he knows, the pharaoh need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. The pharaoh can swap only a single maneuver at any given level. A pharaoh’s key initiator attribute is Charisma.

This changes the language to be "per code" in regards to PoW content in general while keeping the "Empty Pyramid takes up at least half your starting maneuvers" restriction.

[AGrinningCat]

Hmm. Right; Wizard get to make, at least arcane spells they can spellbook, easier. But They have a smaller pool of abilities they can produce in a day (aka, spell counts)

a Vizer; could ideally go all day just on veilweaving before touching the Item Creation Stuff. So having a somewhat less easy time does make sense.

I think I might crunch a Creationist Vizer just to see what I can do; compare it to a Wizard of the same style.

Due to the way item creation works, you don't want to start crafting on a day you've done adventuring on, since you can only put in 4 hours, and only get 2 hours worth of item creation.

If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.

Generally you want to devote entire downtime day(s) to it.

pg. 5 - Path of the Crafter should read "The vizier gains a bonus equal to 1/2 his class level on all skill checks made as part of the crafting process, and can bypass the normal restrictions for spell prerequisites on spell trigger and spell activation items by adding 3 + spell level to the crafting DC".

What exactly is Spell activation?

[Milo v3]

What exactly is Spell activation?

A type of item, wands are spell activation items iirc

[AGrinningCat]

Wands are spell trigger, though. Unless spell trigger = spell activation, in which case I'm just dumb.

[Milo v3]

Just checked, potions are activated items, but it's Use-Activated not Spell-Activation.

[Ssalarn]

What exactly is Spell activation?

/facepalm

Spell completion items. I have errata'd the errata...

the only thing that strikes me as odd is how late the path of the crafter gets "At 17th level, the vizier reduces the cost to create
wondrous items, rings, and staves by 25%."

By level 17. you've probably done the majority of crafting (85% of your way to level 20...)
This seems like more an ability to give a lower lever..

I've actually found that around 17th level is where crafting gets hardest to prioritize and most benefits from that ability. I've spent most of my career making the things I have to have, and suddenly I'm at a level where I have a ton of disposable income, an aching need to spend it because I'm getting close to retirement, and a whole world of cool goodies to choose from. I assume a Crafter vizier is probably going to have a ridiculous arsenal of staves, rods, and other goodies that he wants to drag around with him, and the 25% reduction in cost lets him pick a few extra high level staves or rods to add to his arsenal and also lowers the crafting time by roughly 25% (since crafting time is based on cost), so he can pump those things out at a pretty quick rate, even without the full use of the crazy shenanigans that a classic wizard would use to cut down on his production times.

The Crafter also gets that 1/2 level bonus to crafting checks; if he doesn't need to spend that bonus to cover spell prereqs, he can instead use it to cover the +5 DC bump to cut the required crafting time in half. He ultimately has the resources to cut crafting time way, way down, spread out over the whole life of the build.

[AGrinningCat]

At level 17, a wizard(Well, anyone who can take crafting feats) can reduce prices down to 14%(I believe it's around there, math tomorrow) by RAW. A Vizier gets to throw in his 25% to crafting cost as well(I'm fixing to head to sleep, so no math right now). The big comparison is that a level 17 wizard can make items in minutes due to Create Greater Demiplane and time shenanigans. Just for an example, 1 day in 'Wizard demiplane' could be 1 round in the material plane. With the exception of aging rules slowing you down(If you even age, I'm looking at you Elans), you could spend a month making items only to have 3 minutes pass in the real world. That kind of speed cannot be matched by the Vizier.

I'll post up a full write when I get up in the morning on Vizier and Wizard going at it head to head, but the gut feeling is that Path of the Crafter is a larger resource investment to the Vizier than it is for the Wizard, who will be able to do it better.

[Taveena]

WHILE WE'RE ERRATAING THE DARK LORD'S RING OF ESSENCE BINDING...

Plague Zombie isn't a template, and as such cannot be applied to the Cairn Wight. It'd be pretty damn easy for a DM to rule that the Cairn Wight wouldn't get the Plague ability.

Further, due to how Zombie Rot works, it won't... ever get to do damage, dissipating harmlessly before the 24 to 96 hour onset period has time to tick over. And even if somehow it DOES do damage (say, you roll the 1d4 days and it ticks damage once before fading, or your DM rules that it's one day after the onset ends)... it's going to do 1d2 con damage and then just. Disappear.

1d2 con damage after 24 hours minimum isn't going to do anything.
Nevermind the only people who might be AFFECTED by the disease who matter to the PCs after a combat ends are... the PCs, too close to the zombie when it died and exploded.

It'd require them to be on 1 con to reliably get any zombies. This is going to be VERY HARD, because even a 1st level Commoner with 10 con is going to take about 14 infections over two weeks to become a zombie.

Long story short, the Plague upgrade, aside from not working at all with the Cairn Wight, is borderline impossible to make ANY use of.

EDIT: I've reread and it turns out I was wrong due to the 'dying while infected' clause. You could in theory get quite an army of Plague Zombies this way.

And by army I mean 'uncontrolled shambling horde that just eats people'.

It's a good way to, uh.

Create encounters for other adventuring parties?

I'm not sure what the Plague Zombie template is meant to do here.

EDIT 2: You know the real problem here is that if you DO use the logical method to create zombies with this - smack them till they fail, then kill them - you now have a zombie that's not loyal to you at all. So you're going to be going to a LOT of effort to try to safely create this, because your zombie has to wade in and smack them, THEN you have to snipe them, and the end result is a kind of crappy 2 HD mook.

EDIT 3: Also the Cairn Wight, even with 8 essence and Tainted Chakra, is almost entirely useless in the lategame. It's very, very squishy and doesn't hit hard at all, and the inability to customize it at all (unlike an Animal Companion) makes it... really bad. We'll grab the Wolf, the most generic companion.

Spoiler: Should probably spoil this

Show

The Wight has 79 HP, hits once a turn at +14 for 2d6+12 with a DC 25 save against a negative level, has two feats locked in already, AC 27, and +14/+13/+16 saves.
The Wolf has 136 HP, hits twice a turn at +19/+14 for 1d8+12 with a trip attempt at DC 21, has eight choosable feats, AC 27, and +14/+14/+6 saves. This is NOT including the +4 to stats from advancing in HD.

This is also one of the weaker animal companions. A Spinosaurus has 3 attacks and a whopping 32 strength, and an Electric Eel can wind up with 48 more health. (Why is the Electric Eel amphibious? Paizo what.)

Wwwith... Greater Magic Weapon and Inspire Courage +5, that's... hitting on a 12 or higher. And the Balor only fails the save against the negative level on a nat 1.

Okay. Level 10! More likely to see play. DLRoEB has 4 points invested at most. So +5 profane bonuses. Wight has 54 HP, +10 for 2d6+8, DC 21 save, 10/9/12 saves.

Wolf has 60 HP, +13/+8 for 1d8+10, trip CMB +15, 10/9/4. It's a little fairer at this level. Maybe I should have started here.

Now. Level 5. Hooboy.

We've got 3 essence in this, so a +4 bonus. No Cairn Wight or Plague Zombie, though.
32 HP, +8 to hit for 1d6+8, constantly Staggered, 4/4/7, 16 AC

Wolf has 32 HP, +5 to hit for 1d6+3, +5 to trip, 6/7/2, 17 AC. It's pretty fair at this level, especially with standard-action charging being an option and the zombie's DR being harder to pierce.

Ultimately the Wight keeps up until around level 15 or so - I think it might need a bonus attack for hitting 6 essence (to keep up with the Animal Companion's multiattack), and SOME way to make up for its pitiful health in the endgame.

[Deadkitten]

Posting to update my opinion on the bind for the Cincture of the Dragon.

I now realize that having it work as Greater Stunning Barrier is just plain dumb, that would be too annoying of an ability.

However, I do believe that as it is written, it is on the weak side.
Currently its a standard action to maybe negate and stun a single enemy at level 12.

I'd suggest maybe changing the wording on it to be similar to the crusaders shield bind but make it a swift action instead.
That would give you a limited number of times per day that you could do it reasonably without getting out of hand.

[Ssalarn]

DLRE works best on multiclass Vizier/Necromancers currently, it's true. I'll ask you to wait for the Supplemental before we change /too/ much from the current course though, there's going to be more toys that will make things a bit more interesting (like the Plaguebringer Gauntlets and Crown of Inevitable Command).

[Milo v3]

Crown of Inevitable Command

This makes me think of a crown formed from cogs that lets you control Inevitables... but the context of "improving dark ring of essence binding" makes that rather unlikely... Disappointing.

[Taveena]

I. Added in some comparisons between the DLRE and a Druid's wolf animal companion. It's actually not too bad numbers-wise until later on, where the Wolf's multiattack and health leave it in the dust.

Of course the problem is the Wolf is terrible.

EDIT: ALSO I forgot the Wight is much harder to buff. No Animal Growth, no morale bonuses.

[master4sword]

WHILE WE'RE ERRATAING THE DARK LORD'S RING OF ESSENCE BINDING...

Plague Zombie isn't a template, and as such cannot be applied to the Cairn Wight. It'd be pretty damn easy for a DM to rule that the Cairn Wight wouldn't get the Plague ability.

Further, due to how Zombie Rot works, it won't... ever get to do damage, dissipating harmlessly before the 24 to 96 hour onset period has time to tick over. And even if somehow it DOES do damage (say, you roll the 1d4 days and it ticks damage once before fading, or your DM rules that it's one day after the onset ends)... it's going to do 1d2 con damage and then just. Disappear.

1d2 con damage after 24 hours minimum isn't going to do anything.
Nevermind the only people who might be AFFECTED by the disease who matter to the PCs after a combat ends are... the PCs, too close to the zombie when it died and exploded.

It'd require them to be on 1 con to reliably get any zombies. This is going to be VERY HARD, because even a 1st level Commoner with 10 con is going to take about 14 infections over two weeks to become a zombie.

Long story short, the Plague upgrade, aside from not working at all with the Cairn Wight, is borderline impossible to make ANY use of.

EDIT: I've reread and it turns out I was wrong due to the 'dying while infected' clause. You could in theory get quite an army of Plague Zombies this way.

And by army I mean 'uncontrolled shambling horde that just eats people'.

It's a good way to, uh.

Create encounters for other adventuring parties?

I'm not sure what the Plague Zombie template is meant to do here.

EDIT 2: You know the real problem here is that if you DO use the logical method to create zombies with this - smack them till they fail, then kill them - you now have a zombie that's not loyal to you at all. So you're going to be going to a LOT of effort to try to safely create this, because your zombie has to wade in and smack them, THEN you have to snipe them, and the end result is a kind of crappy 2 HD mook.

Not to mention that a plague zombie loses its DR, so that second point of essence is kinda painful to invest. Any chance we can make the plague zombie "upgrade" optional at 2 essence?

[Taveena]

The logical choice is to say that the zombie instead gains the Disease and Death Burst abilities of the Plague Zombie. This would avoid it losing DR and also allow it to apply to the Cairn Wight.

(Disease is still terrible, but at least now it's not making your zamboni WORSE!)

[Ssalarn]

The logical choice is to say that the zombie instead gains the Disease and Death Burst abilities of the Plague Zombie. This would avoid it losing DR and also allow it to apply to the Cairn Wight.

(Disease is still terrible, but at least now it's not making your zamboni WORSE!)

I think that's a perfectly workable solution. Consider it done.

I. Added in some comparisons between the DLRE and a Druid's wolf animal companion. It's actually not too bad numbers-wise until later on, where the Wolf's multiattack and health leave it in the dust.

Of course the problem is the Wolf is terrible.

EDIT: ALSO I forgot the Wight is much harder to buff. No Animal Growth, no morale bonuses.

Uhm, I seriously disagree about the wolf ever leaving the wight in the dust. 1st, the wight is intelligent (15 INT as soon as he becomes a wight) and doesn't require Handle Animal checks (something you cannot get around with animal companions in Pathfinder). Second, he gets a real weapon that can be enchanted as normal (way cheaper than an Amulet of Mighty Fists), which channels his energy drain ability, which should cap out with a DC around 28 (potentially higher). Hit points are basically equal, with the wolf maybe having a small edge thanks to his Con bonus, though the Cairn Wight more than makes up for this with a huge host of immunities. The wight will have about a 30 AC before you gear him up (10 base, +3 DEX, +6 natural armor, +10 essence, +1 for Tainted Chakra), to the wolf's 27 (10 base, +1 DEX, +16 natural armor), and it's easier to gear up the wight. The wight also has a better attack bonus and better saves (assuming dedicated investment when using it in combat).