Dreamscarred Press Presents: Akashic Mysteries, Thread 2

[Taveena]

Fair enough. I assumed you'd use the default stats, which come with weapons and armor, which is apparently false!

However the Wolf can gain Int 3 by spending a stat increase into Int, which makes it intelligent and able to understand one language, and as a result Handle Animal checks are no longer required.

Anyway I did actually post some stat comparisons earlier.

The Wight has 79 HP, hits once a turn at +14 for 2d6+12 with a DC 25 save against a negative level, has two feats locked in already, AC 27, and +14/+13/+16 saves.
The Wolf has 136 HP, hits twice a turn at +19/+14 for 1d8+12 with a trip attempt at DC 21, has eight choosable feats, AC 27, and +14/+14/+6 saves. This is NOT including the +4 to stats from advancing in HD.

This is with the default weapons and armor. As the SRD says on Undead
"Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor." So it's only proficient with Light Armor, Shields (a decent investment here, I suppose), Longswords, and Simple Weapons.

The Cairn Wight has, unless I'm mistaken, its 34 base HP, +40 from 8 essence invested. Compared to the wolf, which has 16d8+48 minimum, the Wolf comes away a fair bit ahead.

Please see my earlier post for a comparison at levels 20, 10, and 5.

EDIT: Also a note that Shield Slam in combination with the Justice Daevic's vital strike ability on a Shield Slam allows infinite Shield Slams until you fail the CMB roll.

EDIT 2: The reason Handle Animal is required normally is because convincing an animal to perform a trick requires a Handle Animal roll. At int 3 or higher, it no longer needs tricks and simply understands you. There might be a ruling in PF that overrides the ability to just tell your pet what to do as a normal free action, but I'm not aware of it - if you are, then my apologies for being uninformed.

[Ssalarn]

However the Wolf can gain Int 3 by spending a stat increase into Int, which makes it intelligent and able to understand one language, and as a result Handle Animal checks are no longer required.
EDIT 2: The reason Handle Animal is required normally is because convincing an animal to perform a trick requires a Handle Animal roll. At int 3 or higher, it no longer needs tricks and simply understands you. There might be a ruling in PF that overrides the ability to just tell your pet what to do as a normal free action, but I'm not aware of it - if you are, then my apologies for being uninformed.

This isn't actually true in Pathfinder.


Smart Kitty: If you have increased your animal companion's intelligence score to 3 using various means, then great! You can now have your companion learn any feat it can physically perform, and it can put ranks into any skill. What this increase does not accomplish, however, is any advantage in commanding your companion whatsoever. It's still the same DC 10 to handle and DC 25 to push. It may still only learn six tricks plus your druid bonus tricks. However, for every point of Intelligence it gains above 2, that is three more tricks it can learn. A smart animal will have more versatility without needing to rely on pushing.

Also, the cairn wight is described as using "a sword" not a longsword; so it's technically proficient with any weapon that matches that description (the cairn wight in Lords of the Night uses a greatsword, I believe).
So you've got the wolf with his 120 hit points compared to the wight with his 78 - 98 hit points, but the wight will also have superior defenses, a host of immunities, and every swing he connects with sucks a level off of his opponent with a very high DC, lowering their ability to attack and defend and feeding the wight with temporary hit points. The wight is a much more effective and efficient murder machine against anything not immune to energy drain, and still competitive even when it can't leverage its energy drain to full effect. The only situation where the wolf's higher base hit points are relevant is if they're facing a creature capable of dropping the wight in a single hit; fortunately, if that happens the vizier can just grab another corpse, while the druid has to perform a 24 ceremony in an appropriate environment to replace his wolf.

[NineThePuma]

Also, the cairn wight is described as using "a sword" not a longsword; so it's technically proficient with any weapon that matches that description (the cairn wight in Lords of the Night uses a greatsword, I believe).

The default Cairn Wight statblock uses a Longsword. I think that it would be safe to assume that the Cairn Wight has proficiency with a single martial weapon, rather than "any weapon in the heavy blades and light blades weapon groups" but it might be worth while to note that Cairn Wights created through the relevant ability have martial weapon proficiency with one weapon type.

[Kaidinah]

Also, if the Wight is destroyed, the character can reallocate essence elsewhere until the replacement Wight is found. If a Vizier, they could even put a new veil in place. The Wight is worth less resources to a veilweaver than an animal companion is to another character.

[Ssalarn]

The default Cairn Wight statblock uses a Longsword. I think that it would be safe to assume that the Cairn Wight has proficiency with a single martial weapon, rather than "any weapon in the heavy blades and light blades weapon groups" but it might be worth while to note that Cairn Wights created through the relevant ability have martial weapon proficiency with one weapon type.

There is no default cairn wight stat block; I assume you're referring to the user created content at d20pfsrd, which is not publisher source material. The only official cairn wight from a recognized publisher is shown wielding a greatsword (the Barrow King from the Harrowing module), which he channels his energy drain through. I'd agree that the intent is that he's proficient with one martial weapon of the creator's choice though. I can note that the zombie gains specific proficiencies when it becomes a cairn wight directly in the veil if that would clear things up.

[NineThePuma]

I can note that the zombie gains specific proficiencies when it becomes a cairn wight directly in the veil if that would clear things up.

It is better to be clear rather than have things be inferred.

[Ssalarn]

It is better to be clear rather than have things be inferred.

Agreed. I'll update the veil to specifically note what proficiencies the transformation to cairn wight confers and add it to the errata.

[soulsabre345]

Effectively reposting these questions again because I'd really like a opinion on these. The crusaders shield one especially has come up in a group I'm in and we had no idea how to specifically adjudicate it, so I'd really like some input on what happens from those who are more knowledgeable on the veils than I am.

I have a couple questions about the Crusader's Shield veil. First though, I do love the veil and the options it enables, but it doesn't say what happens when the shield breaks from damage, and if you use it in a space too small for it. So, my questions are;
1. If the shield is destroyed, does the extra damage from that attack go anywhere? (shield has 20 hp, gets hit for 40, does the extra 20 damage hit the user?)
2. If the shield is blocking off a passage, but is destroyed by a burst effect, does the attack proceed past the user or is it halted by the shield? What about a spread effect?
3. If using the shield in a area too small for it (5' high and wide passageway, and you use the basic version which covers a 10' square), does it just fill the area as much as it can, or does it need to be created in a area large enough for it?
4. If there are two veilweavers using the shield, what happens if the shields intersect? (such as two veilweavers side by side and placing it at a 45 degree angle to their sides, making it cross in a x in front and between them)

I also have another set of questions on the Shared Veil feat. How does Shared Veil work when your companion isn't a summon? It's fairly clear how it works if your sharing it once to a companion that isn't going to be there for several days. It's much less clear on if your companion is permanent. Namely;
5. If a Daevic has a Paramour, how often can he share a veil to a Paramour?
6. Can the veil being shared change within the same day?
7. If the veil shared can't be changed within the same day, what happens if say a Vizier has a familiar and veilshifts the veil he's sharing into something else. Can he pick a new veil to share, or does he now have to share the veil he replaced?
8. How do veils with limited uses per day interact with shared veil? As in, if you summoned a zombie with the Dark Lords Ring of Essence Binding , and shared immaculate touch with them and had them heal a party member, what's stopping you from animating a different zombie and doing it again?

[Taveena]

Whoo. Sorry for all my misinformation. In general, yeah, seems a bit better balanced, though I'm still not sure even with those immunities it quite makes up for the relatively tiny healthpool.

[Ssalarn]

Effectively reposting these questions again because I'd really like a opinion on these. The crusaders shield one especially has come up in a group I'm in and we had no idea how to specifically adjudicate it, so I'd really like some input on what happens from those who are more knowledgeable on the veils than I am.

1) Since the wall intercepts attacks, I have any excess damage carry on to the original target, whether that's the veilweaver or an ally. Treating it that the attack has been intercepted and excess damage wouldn't go anywhere any more than excess damage on a standard sunder attempt would is a legit way to read it too though.

2) See 1. I'd have the diminished effect carry on, but "blocked is blocked" is a fair interpretation that's probably easier to run.

3) It fills up as much as it can, up to the space available and its maximum area.

4) The shields cannot penetrate each other, so they'd both end at the point of intersection.

5) Whenever he shapes his veils he can share one with his Paramour.

6) Only if you have the time, or ability to reshape the original shared veil, like a Vizier’s veilshifting.

7) If the Vizier veilshifts a shared veil, the companion's shared, or "echo", veil is shifted as well.

8) They're a per character / day limitation. If you and your companion exhaust your uses of Immaculate Touch and veilshift, you don't get a new refresh of Immaculate Touch, you're going back to a veil whose daily potential is already spent on those people. If you swap the shared veil to a different companion, it's still the same shared veil with the same limitations.

Whoo. Sorry for all my misinformation. In general, yeah, seems a bit better balanced, though I'm still not sure even with those immunities it quite makes up for the relatively tiny healthpool.

Remember that he's also gaining 5 temp hp every round it inflicts energy drain (which should be most rounds), so he's got a constantly replenishing pool of extra hit points that isn't printed in the box. If he goes 5 rounds in an entire day of adventuring where he takes and deals damage, he's tied with the wolf for hp. If he goes one more round, he pulls ahead, and every round after that he pulls farther. There's also the virtual hit points of the damage he doesn't take thanks to higher saves, higher AC, and a built in debuffer that makes it harder for enemies he hits to hit him back. That's harder to quantify since it varies from day to day, but it's not insubstantial. Like I mentioned before, it really only matters if an attack would consistently drop the wight in one round but leave the wolf standing (unlikely since the wight will be harder to hit, so the math actually swings in his favor).

The wolf is probably better if you're dealing with enemies with firearms, so there's that.

[Milo v3]

Would you retain the benefits of veils that are passive while in a polymorph effect in the same way you retain magic item benefits that are passive?

[Ssalarn]

Would you retain the benefits of veils that are passive while in a polymorph effect in the same way you retain magic item benefits that are passive?

Unless the veil benefit happens to be a polymorph effect, yes.

[Milo v3]

Unless the veil benefit happens to be a polymorph effect, yes.

Great, was playtesting the deo races and I realised I hadn't even checked if veils and it's change shape abilities even work together...

[Taveena]

Remember that he's also gaining 5 temp hp every round it inflicts energy drain (which should be most rounds), so he's got a constantly replenishing pool of extra hit points that isn't printed in the box. If he goes 5 rounds in an entire day of adventuring where he takes and deals damage, he's tied with the wolf for hp. If he goes one more round, he pulls ahead, and every round after that he pulls farther. There's also the virtual hit points of the damage he doesn't take thanks to higher saves, higher AC, and a built in debuffer that makes it harder for enemies he hits to hit him back. That's harder to quantify since it varies from day to day, but it's not insubstantial. Like I mentioned before, it really only matters if an attack would consistently drop the wight in one round but leave the wolf standing (unlikely since the wight will be harder to hit, so the math actually swings in his favor).

The wolf is probably better if you're dealing with enemies with firearms, so there's that.

All checks out, really. Totally missed Energy Drain granting temp HP, and at this point I'm fairly satisfied that my friend's necro-vizier won't feel useless!
Thoughts on the Cairn Wight losing the (arguably more reliable) DR of the Zombie?

[Milo v3]

Any chance of there being an Akashic Mysteries compatibility graphic on the Dreamscarred Press website once it is out?

[Ssalarn]

Any chance of there being an Akashic Mysteries compatibility graphic on the Dreamscarred Press website once it is out?

I certainly hope so....

All checks out, really. Totally missed Energy Drain granting temp HP, and at this point I'm fairly satisfied that my friend's necro-vizier won't feel useless!
Thoughts on the Cairn Wight losing the (arguably more reliable) DR of the Zombie?

Honestly, while I don't think it would be OP or anything for the wight to keep the zombie's DR, I don't think it's strictly necessary either. The wight has a lot of advantages that the zombie just doesn't, including the ability to move and attack in the same round (with an attack that is way better than what the zombie gets).

[stack]

So, items, are they going in an official doc soon?

[AGrinningCat]

More importantly, for me at least, item pricings? At neat little chart for how much Akashic abilities cost?

[Ssalarn]

So, items, are they going in an official doc soon?

Yes.

Speaking of, let me know what you think of this:

Essence Forged: Essence forged weapons are designed as training tools for users of akasha. The unusual nature of essence forged weapons prevents them from being enchanted normally and a weapon must be created as an essence forged weapon as part of the crafting process, transforming them into essence receptacles that use their wielder’s power to determine their abilities. Essence forged weapons are always of masterwork quality, and gain an enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to the amount of essence invested in them (maximum +5). Essence forged weapons are also prebuilt with a set of weapon special abilities that can be activated by wielders who have learned how to bind essence to specific slots. When an essence forged item is created, choose 3 weapon special abilities (such as flaming, frost, or speed), whose combined total does not exceed a +5 enhancement bonus. A wielder capable of binding to the hands slot may access up to +1 enhancement bonus' worth of these abilities, a wielder capable of binding to the wrists slot may access up to +3, and a character capable of binding to the shoulders slot may access up to +5. The weapon must have an amount of essence invested equal to the total enhancement bonus of any accessed abilities for those to be used (for example, an akashic warrior able to bind to his shoulders slot and wielding an essence forged weapon with the speed property would need to have at least 3 points of essence invested). Each time the wielder reassigns essence to the weapon, he may change which of the available weapon properties are active.

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Price 3000 gp


It's kind of like a weapon property that creates a weapon of legacy for akasha users.

[stack]

Hmm, interesting. The hard part will be scrounging that much essence on a weapon-based character. Akasin guru's should love it (unless getting a weapon from a veil). No clue how to price something like that.

[PsyBomb]

Yes.

Speaking of, let me know what you think of this:

Essence Forged: Essence forged weapons are designed as training tools for users of akasha. The unusual nature of essence forged weapons prevents them from being enchanted normally and a weapon must be created as an essence forged weapon as part of the crafting process, transforming them into essence receptacles that use their wielder’s power to determine their abilities. Essence forged weapons are always of masterwork quality, and gain an enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to the amount of essence invested in them (maximum +5). Essence forged weapons are also prebuilt with a set of weapon special abilities that can be activated by wielders who have learned how to bind essence to specific slots. When an essence forged item is created, choose 3 weapon special abilities (such as flaming, frost, or speed), whose combined total does not exceed a +5 enhancement bonus. A wielder capable of binding to the hands slot may access up to +1 enhancement bonus' worth of these abilities, a wielder capable of binding to the wrists slot may access up to +3, and a character capable of binding to the shoulders slot may access up to +5. The weapon must have an amount of essence invested equal to the total enhancement bonus of any accessed abilities for those to be used (for example, an akashic warrior able to bind to his shoulders slot and wielding an essence forged weapon with the speed property would need to have at least 3 points of essence invested). Each time the wielder reassigns essence to the weapon, he may change which of the available weapon properties are active.

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Price 3000 gp


It's kind of like a weapon property that creates a weapon of legacy for akasha users.

Hrm. 3000gp is comically cheap for a potentially +10 weapon if I'm reading it right. Ten times that would still be cheap, my Nunchaku TWF Vayist would buy two and never look back at 30k. Love the concept, the balance just needs work.

[Ssalarn]

Hmm, interesting. The hard part will be scrounging that much essence on a weapon-based character. Akasin guru's should love it (unless getting a weapon from a veil). No clue how to price something like that.

Yeah, I threw in 3000 gp as kind of a placeholder price; it should be more expensive than a simple +1 enhancement, but at the same time it's nothing but a masterwork weapon in the hands of anyone who can't use akasha, and a regular character who gained an essence pool through feats would never be able to use it as more than a simple +4 weapon. 3000 gp is kind of a ridiculous steal for the right character though...
Note that the special abilities don't actually require you to bind the weapon; they just require you to be able to bind in that slot (as kind of a representation of your skill in the martial uses of akasha).

[AGrinningCat]

Phone posting here.

Why not have a maximum investment limit to help scale pricing? Would help with balance.

[Ssalarn]

Phone posting here.

Why not have a maximum investment limit to help scale pricing? Would help with balance.

Not a bad idea. I'm also out and about right now, but I'm going to check the pricing on other DSP legacy weapons and then see if there's an easy way to extrapolate a price from there. If not, your idea of breaking it up into investment limits will probably be what I go with.

[AGrinningCat]

Whoa slow down; there are other DSP legacy weapons?

If you're looking for a price, I'd point at normal weapon enhancements and the little blurb in the item creation section that allows you to take 10% or 30% off the cost due to needing a skill use or needing to be a class or alignment, respecitvely.

[Ssalarn]

Whoa slow down; there are other DSP legacy weapons?

Yeah, like the Tempest's Blade from Ultimate Psionics. Turns out since it uses the Legendary item rules there's no listed price though....

What if we did it a little like composite longbows, where you've got a base essence capacity of 1 (1800 gp), and you can increase the essence capacity by an additional 1 by paying 1000 gp x new capacity for each upgrade (so upgrading from 1 - 5 would actually cost 16,000 gp)? I'd still probably want the abilities preset though, so you don't end up with a situation where most players can only ever afford to add 5 +1 special abilities if they upgrade the weapon one capacity at a time.

**EDIT**
Was running the numbers on that, realized the formula is still way too cheap. Hmmm.... I'd prefer a simpler way to do this than having +1 - +5 versions of the weapon, since the scaling is already built into the system and requires investment of class resources. They may be a simple flat cost item that's super beneficial if you happen to be a primary veilweaver who's starting the game at a higher level.

[AGrinningCat]

Capacity 1: 1800 gp
Capacity 2: 3800 gp
Capacity 3: 6800 gp
Capacity 4: 10,800 gp
Capacity 5: 15,800 gp

Going by Wealth by level, a character could barely afford that by 6th level (5th level if crafting), but by 9-10ish (When shoulder binds come online), it's about 25% of your WBL.

Unless you take a feat to allow you to increase your Magic item essence capacity(By the way, Does the enhanced capacity feat affect all magic items or just one?), you investment would look like this:

6th level
2 Capacity(Can only invest 1 due to binds)
+1 weapon, with up to +1 bonus
Paid 1800gp ,8000gp worth

10th level
2 Capacity (Can invest 5)
+2 Weapon, with up to +2 bonus
Paid 3800gp, 32,000gp worth

12th level
3 Capcity
+3 Weapon, with up to +3 bonus
6,800gp, with 72,000gp worth

The numbers get steadily more silly from there, doubly so with Enhanced Capacity veil.
Two odd notes: The Guru goes from Hands to Shoulders and skips wrists all together, and the Pharaoh can't get access to it either without feats.

How about a price reduction instead? Following the Magic Weapons table and taking 30% off the price, we get..

Weapon Bonus	Base Price
+1	1400
+2	5600
+3	12600
+4	22400
+5	35000
+6	50400
+7	68600
+8	89600
+9	113400
+10	140000

Following this, Essence capacity of a weapon could be it's total weapon bonus divided by 2, and each essence would grant you a +2 investment bonus to split up how you like. Cheaper than normal weapons, still follows (mostly) the same rules, and you don't have any weirdness where a 12th level character can get 128,000gp weapon for 6,800gp + extra capacity feat.

Edit: Beaten by an edit while I was making the table look pretty!

[stack]

The problem is it isn't a +10 weapon that is limited to a few classes. It is instead a weapon fueled by a limited resource that can act as a +10 weapon. Fueling it with 5 essence is a huge expenditure of resources, especially for a daevic but still major for a non-akasin guru. Vizier's care less, but even for a weapon-using vizier it is a decent chunk. Imagine if a cleric was fueling their weapon with 9nth level spells?

Really, pricing doesn't match up to any existing item I am aware of. I could see it working as a feat or class feature.

[Kaidinah]

I don't mind a cheaper cost. A daevic expends half their essence getting this weapon up to full power. 5 essence is a lot.

[AGrinningCat]

I guess the question of the hour then, is how much is 1 essence worth?

A trait is worth about 50% of a feat. (Improved initiative feat vs Reactionary trait)
Extra essence feat grants 2 Essence.
Therefore, we can assume that 1 Essence = 1 Trait.

A cracked Dusty Rose Ioun stone is 500gp, for a +1 initiative.
We know that slotless items (Such as Ioun Stones) are 2x the normal cost.
We also know that item bonuses follow the formula of Bonus² x Cost.
Determining this, a +1 Initiative would cost Bonus x 250gp.
An initiative Trait is +2 to initiative, therefore following the above formula it'd be 2² x 250 or 1000gp GP.

Thus, with 2 Initiative = Trait = 1/2 feat = 1 Essence, we can determine that the formula for an Essence would be Bonus²x1000gp

For a +5 Essence investment, you're looking at 5² x 1000gp or 25,000gp+Enhanced capacity feat. Going by that math you're getting a steal.

Although my math is probably wrong. Might try to price it here using the feat granting ioun stone instead. Hold on...

Edit:

Feat is worth 10,000gp on an ioun stone(Alertness, Endurance, Weapon proficiency)
Extra Essence is 2 Essence. We can assume that 1/2 feat is 1/2 the gold.
5000gp / Slotless essence, or 2500gp for a single essence.
Bonus² x 2500gp or 62,500gp for 5 essence.

Considering that cost, it's more expensive to get a +10 sword since you have to spend the feat on it.
If Essence was Bonus² x 2000gp, then it's 50000 + feat, meaning that the sword would cost you a grand total of 190,000gp + feat, which is damn near dead center for an actual +10 weapon.