Dreamscarred Press Presents: Akashic Mysteries, Thread 2

[Ssalarn]

The problem is it isn't a +10 weapon that is limited to a few classes. It is instead a weapon fueled by a limited resource that can act as a +10 weapon. Fueling it with 5 essence is a huge expenditure of resources, especially for a daevic but still major for a non-akasin guru. Vizier's care less, but even for a weapon-using vizier it is a decent chunk. Imagine if a cleric was fueling their weapon with 9nth level spells?

Really, pricing doesn't match up to any existing item I am aware of. I could see it working as a feat or class feature.

Yeah, that's the odd bit; an essence pool is a class feature, one that can also be created with feats. You're not really paying for a +X weapon, you're paying for the ability to convert your existing resources into weapon enhancements. As Stack notes, a Guru using a fully invested essence forged is dedicating around a quarter of his primary resource to it; that'd be like a cleric giving up two or more spell slots per level to use a magic mace. Hmmm...

It's almost more like a wondrous item in that way. You're not getting a ridiculously cheap magic weapon, you're getting a new option for utilizing your existing resources, making an essence forged weapon more similar to a Fighter's Gloves of Dueling.

I'd like to keep this weapon ability as is, since I think it brings some cool things to the game and provides a way to get "legacy weapons" that aren't crazy powerful or require a huge back story all their own. That being said, I also get where people are coming from when they say this is more like a class feature than a weapon special ability, and maybe it just doesn't belong in this part of the game and would be better suited as, for example, an Akashic Warrior ability.

What does everyone think? I'd honestly prefer to keep them basically as is, with maybe a few tweaks to the pricing. I like the idea of an AkWar getting to pick up an essence forged weapon fairly early on, and then as his akashic abilities get stronger the weapon does as well. We're still talking about basically anyone who's not a Daevic or Vizier having to spend 1-3 feats to unlock the weapon special abilities and actually hit the +5/10 cap, and even they are having to wait to accrue sufficiently large essence pools and hit high enough levels to have the full capacity.

***
For a +5 Essence investment, you're looking at 5² x 1000gp or 25,000gp+Enhanced capacity feat. Going by that math you're getting a steal.
***
Feat is worth 10,000gp on an ioun stone(Alertness, Endurance, Weapon proficiency)
Extra Essence is 2 Essence. We can assume that 1/2 feat is 1/2 the gold.
5000gp / Slotless essence, or 2500gp for a single essence.
Bonus² x 2500gp or 62,500gp for 5 essence.

Considering that cost, it's more expensive to get a +10 sword since you have to spend the feat on it.
If Essence was Bonus² x 2000gp, then it's 50000 + feat, meaning that the sword would cost you a grand total of 190,000gp + feat.

I think the issue I have with those formulas, is that the weapon isn't giving you essence, it is actively costing you essence to gain its abilities. The 190,000 + a feat isn't giving you more essence, it's allowing you to spend essence you already have in a different way, at the cost of not having that essence available to spend on your other abilities. Considering a normal +10 weapon is 200,000 gp, that means you're actually getting royally boned and would have been better off with a normal magic weapon.

If it helps the conversation any, here's another magic item that serves as an essence receptacle:

Suqur’s Gift
Aura: Moderate Transmutation; CL 8th; Weight -
Slot: none Price: 18,000 gp
Suqur’s gifts are specially enchanted feathers freely given from a suqur to beings of non-flying races who do a great service for a suqur family or community. A creature holding a suqur’s gift given to him by a suqur is protected as though by a feather fall spell that activates immediately if the holder falls more than 5 feet. If the holder has an essence pool, he may invest essence into a suqur’s gift for additional benefits; if at least one point of essence is invested in the gift, the holder gains a fly speed of 10 feet with poor maneuverability. For each additional point of essence invested, the fly speed increases by 5 feet and the maneuverability improves by 1 step. If a suqur’s gift is stolen or sold, it becomes simply a normal feather until such time as it is returned to the person it was originally given to, or a suqur gifts it to a new individual.
Requirements: suqur race, Craft Wondrous Item, fly; Cost: 9,000 gp

The Suqur's Gift is actually priced at the same amount as a pair of Winged boots, and even has similar prereqs. The racial bit is mostly for flavor and story enhancement, the pricing I went with because without essence, the SG is notably weaker than the winged boots (more like a ring of feather falling) but with investment it can actually be a bit better. So it's definitely more expensive than its base ability would imply, but ultimately a cheaper investment if you have the character resources to bring out its full potential. That's where the rough price of 3k gp came from on the essence forged weapons, an attempt to bring the price above its base bonuses starting, but where the ultimate payout is a better investment over the life of a character.

[AGrinningCat]

Before I answer that question, is it possible to get Extra essence through magic items? That'll help determine my answer.

[Ssalarn]

Before I answer that question, is it possible to get Extra essence through magic items? That'll help determine my answer.

The closest thing is this:

Akashic Catalysts
Aura: Moderate Transmutation; CL 5th; Weight -
Slot: Varies Price: 4,000 gp (Least), 16,000 gp (Lesser), 36,000 gp (Greater)
Akashic catalysts are woven bands of gem studded cloth or metal inscribed with glowing mandalas. A veilweaver may wear the catalyst around either their hands, feet, head, headband, shoulders, wrist, neck, belt, or body to reinforce and fortify the power of invested essence within a veil shaped in that slot. If the veilweaver is capable of shaping a veil in the Ring slot, he may assign the bonus from a catalyst wrapped around his hands to one such veil. If a veilweaver invests essence in any veil formed on a chakra that is wrapped with an akashic catalyst, the essence invested in the veil may be treated as being higher for all mechanical effects (+1 least, +2 lesser, +3 greater), though this does not change the veilweaver's total essence pool. A character cannot wear more than one akashic catalyst of each type (least, lesser, and greater). Putting on or taking off a catalyst is a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 2,000 gp (Least), 8,000 gp (Lesser), 18,000 gp (Greater)

[Ilorin Lorati]

By RAW that seems to be able to make things go over the normal limit - seems a bit strong for such a cheap item.

[PsyBomb]

The closest thing is this:

Akashic Catalysts
Aura: Moderate Transmutation; CL 5th; Weight -
Slot: Varies Price: 4,000 gp (Least), 16,000 gp (Lesser), 36,000 gp (Greater)
Akashic catalysts are woven bands of gem studded cloth or metal inscribed with glowing mandalas. A veilweaver may wear the catalyst around either their hands, feet, head, headband, shoulders, wrist, neck, belt, or body to reinforce and fortify the power of invested essence within a veil shaped in that slot. If the veilweaver is capable of shaping a veil in the Ring slot, he may assign the bonus from a catalyst wrapped around his hands to one such veil. If a veilweaver invests essence in any veil formed on a chakra that is wrapped with an akashic catalyst, the essence invested in the veil may be treated as being higher for all mechanical effects (+1 least, +2 lesser, +3 greater), though this does not change the veilweaver's total essence pool. A character cannot wear more than one akashic catalyst of each type (least, lesser, and greater). Putting on or taking off a catalyst is a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 2,000 gp (Least), 8,000 gp (Lesser), 18,000 gp (Greater)

Interesting. May I request a means to key it to Blood as well, or does that present balance issues?

EDIT: Ilorin, it can pull a slot over the normal upper limit, but I know I've mathed it out. The effect is non-negligible, but not grossly overpowered. Even on the strongest output veils possible, even abusing crafting rules and language to stack all three for a +6 (which I see is no longer possible due to a wording change), it was barely within the realm of balanced. Without the abusive stunts, it's an important investment for Akashic characters but not overpowered.

[Ssalarn]

Slightly different subject, anyone want to make $20? It would be super helpful to me if someone was willing to go through all three class playtest docs, combine the veil tables and full lists into one master table and alphabetized entries for all the veils, and then highlight any veils that need to be updated with the errata discussed in Psybomb's guide thread. I can't find an easy way to knock this out in Google docs, and the Supplemental release needs one master table and section with all the veils from all three classes. Trying to do that manually while also getting actual design done is turning into a real pain in the ass.

Funds to be sent through PayPal upon receipt and approval of completed document. As there's a bit of a time crunch for me here, whoever gets something I'm willing to approve put together and in my hands first (PM me for my e-mail address) gets the cash. Doing it in a Google doc so I can copy/paste directly into the working doc is a plus.


***EDIT***

So just to be clear, the way that each playtest doc has a table of all the veils for that class organized by bind with my brief descriptions, and then all of the veils laid out alphabetically below? I want that, but with the table and the entries all organized with the complete list of veils for all classes.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Alright, I'll trust your math on this.

[AGrinningCat]

To answer your question, Ssalarn, I like the concept, but ultimately it comes down to price. If I can afford it + The Akashic Catalysts so that there's not a net loss to my overall essence pool and it's not more expensive than a +10 weapon combined, I'll probably grab it.

Slightly different subject, anyone want to make $20? It would be super helpful to me if someone was willing to go through all three class playtest docs, combine the veil tables and full lists into one master table and alphabetized entries for all the veils, and then highlight any veils that need to be updated with the errata discussed in Psybomb's guide thread. I can't find an easy way to knock this out in Google docs, and the Supplemental release needs one master table and section with all the veils from all three classes. Trying to do that manually while also getting actual design done is turning into a real pain in the ass.

Funds to be sent through PayPal upon receipt and approval of completed document. As there's a bit of a time crunch for me here, whoever gets something I'm willing to approve put together and in my hands first (PM me for my e-mail address) gets the cash. Doing it in a Google doc so I can copy/paste directly into the working doc is a plus.


***EDIT***

So just to be clear, the way that each playtest doc has a table of all the veils for that class organized by bind with my brief descriptions, and then all of the veils laid out alphabetically below? I want that, but with the table and the entries all organized with the complete list of veils for all classes.

I'll see what I can do.

[AGrinningCat]

I think the issue I have with those formulas, is that the weapon isn't giving you essence, it is actively costing you essence to gain its abilities. The 190,000 + a feat isn't giving you more essence, it's allowing you to spend essence you already have in a different way, at the cost of not having that essence available to spend on your other abilities. Considering a normal +10 weapon is 200,000 gp, that means you're actually getting royally boned and would have been better off with a normal magic weapon.

Right; The formulas were just figuring out how much an individual point of essence was worth to try to help determine the pricing of Essence forged.

A point of essence is worth roughly about Bonus² x 2500.
A feat is roughly about 5k.

If I'm getting a +5 enhancement bonus to my essence pool through a slotless item; that's worth (Using the above formula x2 for slotless), 100,000gp.
That means that getting a +10 weapon out of Essence Forge have to cost me 155,000gp or less for it to be worth picking up. (200k minus 10k(feat) minus 100,000gp(Essence)) as that's my 'investment cost' towards the weapon, so to speak. So a +10 weapon should be worth 90k, which is roughly a 55% reduction cost. Except that's wrong if we're using the above essence formula so I'm deleting a ton of math and moving onto this post:

Akashic Catalysts
Aura: Moderate Transmutation; CL 5th; Weight -
Slot: Varies Price: 4,000 gp (Least), 16,000 gp (Lesser), 36,000 gp (Greater)
Akashic catalysts are woven bands of gem studded cloth or metal inscribed with glowing mandalas. A veilweaver may wear the catalyst around either their hands, feet, head, headband, shoulders, wrist, neck, belt, or body to reinforce and fortify the power of invested essence within a veil shaped in that slot. If the veilweaver is capable of shaping a veil in the Ring slot, he may assign the bonus from a catalyst wrapped around his hands to one such veil. If a veilweaver invests essence in any veil formed on a chakra that is wrapped with an akashic catalyst, the essence invested in the veil may be treated as being higher for all mechanical effects (+1 least, +2 lesser, +3 greater), though this does not change the veilweaver's total essence pool. A character cannot wear more than one akashic catalyst of each type (least, lesser, and greater). Putting on or taking off a catalyst is a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 2,000 gp (Least), 8,000 gp (Lesser), 18,000 gp (Greater)

Considering this, it's a bit messy.
Since Essence is fluid, a +1 investment to a single veil can (weakly)be considered a +1 essence to your pool (For all things, minus the pool size itself). Due to the fact you can wear multiples, the price of essence looks something like...

2,000gp (+1)
8,000gp (+2)
10,000gp (+3 = +1, +2)
18,000gp (+3)
20,000gp (+4 = +3, +1)
26,000gp (+5 = +3, +2)
28,000gp (+6 = +3, +2, +1)

To a max cap of 6.
Thus, quick and dirty, I'll say that I'd want to see a +10 equivalent Essence forged cost roughly 200,000-(26,000x2)-(5000x2) for the full 'investment' of the items.

[Ssalarn]

Interesting. May I request a means to key it to Blood as well, or does that present balance issues?

Blood was... problematic. It's not like Blood veils are stronger than other veils, but the versatility of the slot made for some really weird results in playtesting when catalysts were allowed to apply to Blood, and it was a little harder to pick what to lock out (like for the Vizier, using the catalyst to amp his rings prevents him from amping his hands since the catalyst is already taking up his hands slot, which made it easy to predict what he was giving up and what he was gaining since the general purpose of veils in those slots is relatively predictable). There was also just the funky thematic weirdness of explaining why wrapping a catalyst around any particular part of your body buffed Blood. I'm still trying to work on something else that will serve that general purpose but fit the Daevic a bit better, like maybe a weapon property that feeds on the blood of your opponents making your own Blood veils stronger.

[PsyBomb]

Right; The formulas were just figuring out how much an individual point of essence was worth to try to help determine the pricing of Essence forged.

A point of essence is worth roughly about Bonus² x 2500.
A feat is roughly about 5k.

If I'm getting a +5 enhancement bonus to my essence pool through a slotless item; that's worth (Using the above formula x2 for slotless), 100,000gp.
That means that getting a +10 weapon out of Essence Forge have to cost me 155,000gp or less for it to be worth picking up. (200k minus 10k(feat) minus 100,000gp(Essence)) as that's my 'investment cost' towards the weapon, so to speak. So a +10 weapon should be worth 90k, which is roughly a 55% reduction cost. Except that's wrong if we're using the above essence formula so I'm deleting a ton of math and moving onto this post:





Considering this, it's a bit messy.
Since Essence is fluid, a +1 investment to a single veil can (weakly)be considered a +1 essence to your pool (For all things, minus the pool size itself). Due to the fact you can wear multiples, the price of essence looks something like...

2,000gp (+1)
8,000gp (+2)
10,000gp (+3 = +1, +2)
18,000gp (+3)
20,000gp (+4 = +3, +1)
26,000gp (+5 = +3, +2)
28,000gp (+6 = +3, +2, +1)

To a max cap of 6.
Thus, quick and dirty, I'll say that I'd want to see a +10 equivalent Essence forged cost roughly 200,000-(26,000x2)-(5000x2) for the full 'investment' of the items.

You have the handle on this, so I'll ask you for it and give my reasoning on the numbers:

Can you give the totals for expected price on +2, +6, and +10 weapons using this system? This would allow for three distinct price points for system comparison, at 1-3-5 investment cap, and give a potential low-version of the weapon for, say, a level-6 Justice Daevic to sink his teeth into.

The language would need a slight brush-up to account for it, but I can see it working out.

[Ssalarn]

Interesting. May I request a means to key it to Blood as well, or does that present balance issues?

What about something like this for Blood?

Blood Funnels
Aura: Moderate Necromancy; CL 5th; Weight -
Slot: see text; Price: 16,000 gp
These cruel bands of twisted metal are designed to be attached to a natural weapon capable of rending flesh, such as a claw, bite, or gore. Attaching a blood funnel requires the wearer to twist the band over the tearing end of his natural weapon and through the nearest bit of his own flesh, dealing 1 point of damage; this damage does not heal as long as the blood funnel is attached. Once attached, a blood funnel allows the wearer to drain his enemy’s blood and strengthen his own; whenever a character with a Blood veil shaped deals bleed damage with the natural attack his blood funnel is attached to, he treats the total amount of essence invested in his Blood veil as 1 higher for the next 3 rounds, even if that would raise the veil above its normal capacity. If the wearer scores a critical hit with that natural attack, he instead treats the Blood veil as having 3 additional points of essence invested. Multiple instances of the benefit from blood funnels do not stack, but instead overlap, with the most beneficial instance given priority (for example, a wearer who scored a critical hit with a bleeding attack in round 1 and a regular hit with a bleeding attack in round 2 would continue to use the larger benefit until that instance expired).
Requirements: must have an essence pool, Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 8,000 gp

[PsyBomb]

What about something like this for Blood?

Blood Funnels
Aura: Moderate Necromancy; CL 5th; Weight -
Slot: see text; Price: 16,000 gp
These cruel bands of twisted metal are designed to be attached to a natural weapon capable of rending flesh, such as a claw, bite, or gore. Attaching a blood funnel requires the wearer to twist the band over the tearing end of his natural weapon and through the nearest bit of his own flesh, dealing 1 point of damage; this damage does not heal as long as the blood funnel is attached. Once attached, a blood funnel allows the wearer to drain his enemy’s blood and strengthen his own; whenever a character with a Blood veil shaped deals bleed damage with the natural attack his blood funnel is attached to, he treats the total amount of essence invested in his Blood veil as 1 higher for the next 3 rounds, even if that would raise the veil above its normal capacity. If the wearer scores a critical hit with that natural attack, he instead treats the Blood veil as having 3 additional points of essence invested. Multiple instances of the benefit from blood funnels do not stack, but instead overlap, with the most beneficial instance given priority (for example, a wearer who scored a critical hit with a bleeding attack in round 1 and a regular hit with a bleeding attack in round 2 would continue to use the larger benefit until that instance expired).
Requirements: must have an essence pool, Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 8,000 gp

Hrm... MUCH more niche than the Catalyst, this only really works well for Wrath, and only if they're using the Bloody Shroud (which is typically a waste for them, since Bleeds don't stack). I wouldn't use it, personally. I'll look at the Blood veils more closely, in particular Daevic Essence, to see if it has a break point somewhere. Off-hand, I know that Infernal Blood and Heartsblood Caress wouldn't use it that much, the former since it is pure-retributive and the latter since its typical combat style is not really suitable for melee.

[stack]

Need to adjust items on my guru if those are the correct catalyst costs. No complaint, I think that is a good price point for catalysts.

I agree with Psybomb on the funnel.

[Ssalarn]

Thanks to AGrinningCat for knocking out combining the veil lists!

Stack & Psybomb -

I'll look at opening up the Blood funnels a bit, maybe allow them to be attached to weapon hilts or something so it works for more of the builds out there.

Stack -

I'm working on updating the Swarm Master with your changes as part of getting the Supplemental release prepped.

[AGrinningCat]

Thanks to AGrinningCat for knocking out combining the veil lists!

Stack & Psybomb -

I'll look at opening up the Blood funnels a bit, maybe allow them to be attached to weapon hilts or something so it works for more of the builds out there.

Stack -

I'm working on updating the Swarm Master with your changes as part of getting the Supplemental release prepped.

Don't forget Essence of the Succubus doesn't have short text. Sections highlighted in yellow need fixing (Either in short or long).

[AGrinningCat]

You have the handle on this, so I'll ask you for it and give my reasoning on the numbers:

Can you give the totals for expected price on +2, +6, and +10 weapons using this system? This would allow for three distinct price points for system comparison, at 1-3-5 investment cap, and give a potential low-version of the weapon for, say, a level-6 Justice Daevic to sink his teeth into.

The language would need a slight brush-up to account for it, but I can see it working out.

2,000gp (+1)
8,000gp (+2)
10,000gp (+3 = +1, +2)
18,000gp (+3)
20,000gp (+4 = +3, +1)
26,000gp (+5 = +3, +2)
28,000gp (+6 = +3, +2, +1)

Remember that slotless items cost double, so for the purposes of this calculation, we're doubling gp values for essence.
With Essence Forge as is, a +2 weapon would be 1 essence invested, a +6 would be 3 essence, and a +10 would be 5 essence + feat.

+2 weapon
8,000-(4,000) = 4,000gp
+6 weapon
72,000-(20,000) or -(36,000) = 52,000gp or 36,000gp, depending on how you price 3 essence. Later work shows that it should be using the +3 value instead of the +1, +2.
+10 weapon
200,000 -(52,000)-(10,000[feat]) = 138,000gp

Same idea, but using the essence formula "Essence = (typed)Bonus² x 2500gp" (Multiplied by 2 for slotless)
+2 Weapon
8000-(5,000)= 3,000gp
+6 Weapon
72000-(45,000) = 27,000gp
+10 Weapon
200,000-(125,000)-(10,000[feat]) = 65,000gp

"Essence = (typed)Bonus² x 2,000gp" (Multiplied by 2 for slotless)
+2
8000-(4000) = 4,000gp
+6
72000-(36000) = 36,000gp
+10
200,000-(100,000)-(10,000[feat]) = 90,000gp

[Ssalarn]

Don't forget Essence of the Succubus doesn't have short text. Sections highlighted in yellow need fixing (Either in short or long).

Yep, already on it, as well as integrating the new veils like Lashing Spinnerets, Wasp's Sting, Plaguebringer Gauntlets, Crown of Inevitable Command, Utterdark Shield, Loyal Paladin's Spear of Light, Frostbite Halo, Crimson Totem, and more!

Frostbite Halo and LP's Spear of Light were actually from the contest we had over in the GitP regulars as veils thread, and Utterdark Shield and Crimson Totem were also both originally presented by me in that thread.

[PsyBomb]

Yup, stack and I wrote Loyal Paladin's Spear of Light and Frostbite Halo to represent LoyalPalading and Snowbluff, respectively. I was rather proud of the Halo, gives a reason to potentially shape Polar Snowshoes.

Actually, that brings up an item question. You mentioned in the original post with the Akashic Catalysts way back when (HERE) that there was a potential for the item to gain variations, such as changing the element of the Veil's energy damage. Is that still on the table? It matters a whole heck of a lot more now.

[AGrinningCat]

The full costs, all things considered. Using Akashic Catalyst Essence cost is messy considering there isn't anything past +3, meaning that essence becomes weirdly cheaper as you go past 3 (To a cap of 6).

Is it the intention of the Akashic Catalysts to push a veil past it's capacity limit? If so, that'd change calculations considerably.

[Kaidinah]

I don't think calculating essence cost with feats is fair. Extra essence is worth more game balance wise because it can be moved around. Essence forged should be priced with the fact that its a destination, essentially a veil you can buy with gold.

[AGrinningCat]

I don't think calculating essence cost with feats is fair. Extra essence is worth more game balance wise because it can be moved around. Essence forged should be priced with the fact that its a destination, essentially a veil you can buy with gold.

Suqur’s Gift
Aura: Moderate Transmutation; CL 8th; Weight -
Slot: none Price: 18,000 gp
Suqur’s gifts are specially enchanted feathers freely given from a suqur to beings of non-flying races who do a great service for a suqur family or community. A creature holding a suqur’s gift given to him by a suqur is protected as though by a feather fall spell that activates immediately if the holder falls more than 5 feet. If the holder has an essence pool, he may invest essence into a suqur’s gift for additional benefits; if at least one point of essence is invested in the gift, the holder gains a fly speed of 10 feet with poor maneuverability. For each additional point of essence invested, the fly speed increases by 5 feet and the maneuverability improves by 1 step. If a suqur’s gift is stolen or sold, it becomes simply a normal feather until such time as it is returned to the person it was originally given to, or a suqur gifts it to a new individual.
Requirements: suqur race, Craft Wondrous Item, fly; Cost: 9,000 gp

Suruq's gift is a Slotless item that has a Continuous Featherfall that it bestows upon it's owner.

Featherfall, 1st level spell. Continuous is a 2000 gp multiplier
1x1x2000 = 2000gp, doubled for being slotless (4000gp). This is practically a ring of Feather Fall (2,200gp, but the math doesn't add up when you realize it's rounds/level and have to multiply by 4. Either way).

This leaves 14,000gp worth of gold for this Akashic Container. Let's look at fly.

The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.

A ring of flight would cost you 5(CL)x3(Spell level)x2000 or 30,000gp. However, flight gives a better speed than Suqur's gift. With 4 essence invested into the gift, the flight becomes 30ft, 1/2 of fly's 60ft. Double it for a slotless item, and we have:

60,000gp Slotless flight 60ft (Ring of Fly)
14,000gp Slotless flight 25ft. (Suqur's Gift)

When we compare speeds, we get that Suqur's gift is roughly 41.667% of Ring of Flight, so logically that means that the gold price should match the same. So 41.667% of 60,000gp is..

25,000gp Slotless flight 25ft
14,000gp Slotless flight 25ft w/ essence.

So now we have a difference of 11,000gp.

The first essence you invest into Suqur's is worth twice as much as any other essence -- Therefore we can assume that the container itself is worth the price of 1 essence. With 5(4+container). Consider that we need to invest essence into this to work, we are *losing* a feature, which means that we would probably be getting a discount on the item. Hence, the 11,000gp Discount. Considering that we have '5' essence into the item for it to get to where it's at, we can say that 11,000 (The discount)/ 5 (4+ container) = how much each essence is worth in this case.

Which is roughly 2,200gp/per, or 2,200 for the container + 8,800 for the essence.

That's considering that it scales linearly, though. Bonuses typically scale exponentially, so instead we see something closer to:

Bonus² x Y = 11,000, Bonus here = Container + Essence, so
5² x Y = 11,000, and when doing the math we're gonna find that Y = 440

Now it's here I realized I ****ed up the math, so let me go back and fix that.

Edit to fix:

Spoiler

Show

Same idea, different numbers:
4000gp for Feather fall; 14,000gp for Flight. EXCEPT:

Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.

So! Assuming that Featherfall and flight are close enough for the GM to give it's approval, Featherfall, being the cheaper option here, would actually cost 3000gp, which means that the container + essence is worth 15,000gp

Same idea as before
60,000gp Slotless flight 60ft (Ring of Fly)
15,000gp Slotless flight 25ft. (Suqur's Gift)

25,000gp Slotless flight 25ft
15,000gp Slotless flight 25ft w/ essence.

So now we have a difference of 10,000gp.

Which changes our calculations to either 2,000gp for container + 2000gp per essence capacity OR 5² x Y = 10000
Which brings us to Capacity² x 400, with the caveat that Capacity > 1 (As you have to pay for the ability to invest, then each capacity (minimum 1) thereafter).

Pazio just throws darts at a board to determine item pricing. What I really need is a capacity formula.

Thinking about it, I think the best way to go about pricing Akashic items would be (Veil Cost + (Veil cost x Capacity²)) + Any other item effects. I might go back and try to work on that feather to see if I can't get a straight formula out of it, but I think I'll take a break from this for now.

Suqur's feather 'veil' cost would be roughly 600gp, which totals out to 10,200gp, assuming you can invest anymore than 4 essence into it.

Sorry, Suqur's feather 'Veil' cost would be roughly 15,000gp = Veil Cost + (Veil Cost x Capacity²) or in this case roughly about 900 + (900 x 4²) which is roughly 15,300gp.

[Ssalarn]

Pazio just throws darts at a board to determine item pricing. What I really need is a capacity formula.

It's closer to the truth than you might think; the first thing Paizo does when designing a new magic item is determine the cost of similar magic items and the appropriate level for the item to become available and then extrapolate cost from those factors. The formulas for cost are used as either a quick proof to make sure there isn't too much variance, or as a backup plan when they can't nail down an appropriate price. True story (and quickly evidenced by the items in books like Inner Sea Gods that don't have their roots in the more rigid design philosophies of the WotC era).

[stack]

So, I'm thinking a Solhofaat daevic focused on using the crimson totem would be pretty nasty. High AC (bad touch AC though), go wrath/justice for big hits with your beatstick, pump CON for an ocean of HP (22 con at level one if you can get an 18 to start with, so 16 starting HP, scaling nicely). Just need enough strength to carry your armor and grab power attack. Ranged combat may be an issue, but not much more than for most daevics.

Crimson totem needs to go on the passion list for wrath to really make it work though.

[stack]

Ssalarn - do you have firm plans for the Tatvayist and Vedist? I'm considering putting some thoughts down on paper, just wondered if it would all be duplicated effort.

[PsyBomb]

Ssalarn - do you have firm plans for the Tatvayist and Vedist? I'm considering putting some thoughts down on paper, just wondered if it would all be duplicated effort.

I will admit to curiosity here as well. Back burner on my list until Supplemental goes to PDF, though.

Speaking of, any chance at getting alternate favored class bonuses any time soon? I can write them if need be, but it will have a huge effect on the final ratings. As Blinkling proved, it can turn Red to Sky Blue.

[Ssalarn]

Tatvayist and Vedist are both sketched up and have gone through some in-house playtest, but I'm sitting on them until I've cleared some stuff out of the pipeline.

Amongst those things in the pipeline - Pharaoh is getting a massive overhaul. I've brought on some help for that project, but after a long talk with Lord_Gareth this weekend, I'm ripping Pharaoh, and particularly some of the ideas built into Empty Pyramid, apart. End result is going to have a lot in common with the current Pharaoh, but many of the mechanics are going to be heavily, heavily changed. We're dumping the various essence receptacle class features and replacing them with Sigils; the biggest difference here is that this is going to make each individual Pharaoh much more unique. Empty Pyramid is losing the whole "invest in maneuvers" thing, but don't worry, Empty Pyramid will still be an akashic discipline, and will feel like it; at the end of the day, investing in each maneuver is just too cumbersome and creates too many issues with allowing characters to pick up or trade out the discipline. Instead (and this change will affect other pieces of the Pharaoh, like his Bond), the Pharaoh is going to gain the ability to spontaneously create essence forged weapons out of akasha, and will be able to switch the type of weapon he's currently created any time he activates an akashic maneuver. I'm hoping this will make playing a Pharaoh feel a little bit like playing Noctis in Final Fantasy 15, but once the rewrite is complete, I'll let you draw your own associations and conclusions.

Supplemental is coming up quick, mostly just plugging in little things like the alternate FCBs. Speaking of... since half-elves and half-orcs can take the FCBs of either parent race, I'm thinking about not doing FCBs for them; they already get access to both the human and either orc or elf FCBs. Would that be particularly problematic for anyone?

Also, stack, I still haven't added your updated swarm master. Could I have you just pop me an e-mail real quick with just the swarm master in an attachment?

[stack]

Leaving out the extra bonuses makes sense.

I'll shoot the email when I get to my hotel, be a few hours.

[Milo v3]

I'd imagine the essence forging would work rather nicely with throwing weapons.

Though I do wonder, when you say sigils are you referring to the Mystic's Glyphs, Runes, and Sigils?

[Doomeye56]

Tatvayist and Vedist are both sketched up and have gone through some in-house playtest, but I'm sitting on them until I've cleared some stuff out of the pipeline.

Amongst those things in the pipeline - Pharaoh is getting a massive overhaul. I've brought on some help for that project, but after a long talk with Lord_Gareth this weekend, I'm ripping Pharaoh, and particularly some of the ideas built into Empty Pyramid, apart. End result is going to have a lot in common with the current Pharaoh, but many of the mechanics are going to be heavily, heavily changed. We're dumping the various essence receptacle class features and replacing them with Sigils; the biggest difference here is that this is going to make each individual Pharaoh much more unique. Empty Pyramid is losing the whole "invest in maneuvers" thing, but don't worry, Empty Pyramid will still be an akashic discipline, and will feel like it; at the end of the day, investing in each maneuver is just too cumbersome and creates too many issues with allowing characters to pick up or trade out the discipline. Instead (and this change will affect other pieces of the Pharaoh, like his Bond), the Pharaoh is going to gain the ability to spontaneously create essence forged weapons out of akasha, and will be able to switch the type of weapon he's currently created any time he activates an akashic maneuver. I'm hoping this will make playing a Pharaoh feel a little bit like playing Noctis in Final Fantasy 15, but once the rewrite is complete, I'll let you draw your own associations and conclusions.

Supplemental is coming up quick, mostly just plugging in little things like the alternate FCBs. Speaking of... since half-elves and half-orcs can take the FCBs of either parent race, I'm thinking about not doing FCBs for them; they already get access to both the human and either orc or elf FCBs. Would that be particularly problematic for anyone?

Also, stack, I still haven't added your updated swarm master. Could I have you just pop me an e-mail real quick with just the swarm master in an attachment?

Gotta say that all sounds real bloody close to the character I was already running as a Pharaoh, so SWEET.