Roll for Suicide?

[Elricaltovilla]

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I wanted the Playground's opinion on it.

So, odd thing came up in a game. Here's the context for you all:

An NPC from a barbarian tribe was beaten in a duel by a PC, the rules of which stated that the loser would forfeit their life. The PC refused to kill the NPC, and the NPC, not wanting to live forever with the shame of defeat and "pity" of his enemies charged the PC and impaled himself on the PC's weapon, committing suicide.


How would you adjudicate/roll something like that happening?

In a more general sense, how do high level characters even off themselves? Many of the common methods of suicide in fiction kind of don't work on many high level PCs. Monks, Paladins and Druids get immunity to poisons and diseases, high hit point totals make a mockery of fall damage, Fortitude Saves are high enough that the DCs for most saves become a joke and many characters only get to that high a level by being super paranoid and basically becoming immune to everything. So how does a high level character commit suicide?

Last Question: If a tree in a forest with a paladin in it falls with no one around to hear it, does the paladin also fall?

[DrMotives]

There's something in the fluff description of what HP actually are that lays out a few differing ideas, one of which is that high HP aren't necessarily only the body's capacity for damage but also in part luck & experience in avoiding hits, ie rolling with punches, being fortunate enough that that arrow missed major blood vessels, etc. If you choose to take that (optional) interpretation, then even someone with 20 levels in barbarian could still be taken out by small cut to the jugular or femoral artery. It's just that in a combat situation, that cut wouldn't happen until enough attacks burned through all of the character's luck and ability to avoid blows.
That's admittedly going off of one possible explanation for how HP work, some players & DMs will obviously disagree, but it is thrown out there in the core.

[NeoPhoenix0]

The rolls and such depend heavily on the situation, in this case it might be a fight were the npc forfeits their ac. There aren't really any rules for that but some things make it seem like people can do this.

As for ways of committing suicide for high level pcs, a coup de grace with a decent weapon can still kill a lot of pcs, i would think a pc could coup de grace themself. if they have a really high fort save might take something like a scythe.

The real question is, was the paladin up there to begin with?

[Zanos]

Can't you coup de grace yourself and choose to fail the fort save?

For the example situation I would probably give the PC a reflex save to pull his weapon away from the NPC before he impaled himself, and then if he didn't treat it as though the NPC had coup de graced himself with the PCs weapon.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Can't you coup de grace yourself and choose to fail the fort save?

I think you might be right on that one. Then almost anyone can coup de grace themselves with a butter knife.

Beware the butter knife of suicide for many have willingly committed suicide with it under no compulsion by some strange magical force.

[AvatarVecna]

The only thing I've seen that's relevant (can't remember where, unfortunately) was a suggestion for DMs that PCs who make a habit of testing for traps using their bodies on the assumption that "the cleric can fix it) should have to make a Will save proportional to either the situation (which is DM judgement) or proportional to the damage taken (which can be a set DC, but can spiral into impossibility if you don't set the proportion right). I imagine that self-coup-de-grace could be handled similarly, if you wanted to have a mechanical rule to refer to.

That being said, if a player wanted to take their character in that direction (whether they went through with it or not), I'd probably not attach any numbers to it: in such a case (and, indeed, in most NPC cases as well), it's more something that should be role-played rather than roll-played, at least IMO. For example, I think that a PC Fallen Paladin who wishes to atone themselves by committing ritual suicide (and in doing so, regain their honor and dignity in the eyes of their deity) would be an awesome character building idea; even if your gaming world doesn't treat the afterlife as a revolving door, death is never necessarily that character's last effect on the campaign: such an act could inspire their allies to greater heights; maybe the Paladin goes on an adventure in the afterlife to complete their penance/atonement/whatever.

I guess my point is this: if you feel the need to attach a rule to harming yourself, go ahead and houserule something managable...but if it were me, I'd leave it almost completely up to the roleplayers to determine whether it would be in character to do so.

[Ravens_cry]

I'd go with self coup de grâce as well personally, though I would not let them intentionally fail the save unless they passed a will save verses the damage as opposed to the full 10+Damage. Willing yourself to die ain't an easy thing.

[Crake]

Can't you coup de grace yourself and choose to fail the fort save?

For the example situation I would probably give the PC a reflex save to pull his weapon away from the NPC before he impaled himself, and then if he didn't treat it as though the NPC had coup de graced himself with the PCs weapon.

It wouldn't be a reflex, it would be an attack of opportunity if you threaten him, since coup-de-grace provokes. So the player could for example, try to grapple him to prevent him from coup de gracing himself, but not everyone is that great at grappling. Other options include nonlethal damage, or lethal damage and hoping you don't drop him below -10.

[Elricaltovilla]

Well, we kind of let it be a roleplay thing, since it was a suitably dramatic moment. I think the DM rolled it as a coup de grace though.

[Jormengand]

I'd go with self coup de grâce as well personally, though I would not let them intentionally fail the save unless they passed a will save verses the damage as opposed to the full 10+Damage. Willing yourself to die ain't an easy thing.

See, one thing that always annoys me in RPGs is the fact that they force you to roll to see if your character is composed enough to do what you want them to. You're meant to control your character, and if you're willing to see your character dead, then they're probably willing to die too.

[atemu1234]

See, one thing that always annoys me in RPGs is the fact that they force you to roll to see if your character is composed enough to do what you want them to. You're meant to control your character, and if you're willing to see your character dead, then they're probably willing to die too.

True, but can you control your ability to blink? Feel hunger? Feel tired? Grow ill? Biological functions, including the compulsion to survive. It makes enough sense.

[Jormengand]

True, but can you control your ability to blink? Feel hunger? Feel tired? Grow ill?

No, but I can control my ability to give myself a good ol' whack with a knife.

Biological functions, including the compulsion to survive. It makes enough sense.

It makes sense, just like the way you have to roll a will save vs fear every time you enter combat does.

Oh, wait.