Erfworld 45 (Page 41)

[Eldae]

Are those Ents I see in the background of panel 8?

[SteveMB]

In the first quote she's trying to convince Stanley it's a good idea (Stanley is not Jillian's lover). In the second quote, she's setting Stanley up to accept Jillian's survival in the event that the plan "fails". It could be read as Wanda's own agenda, like that.

Hmmm... you have a point, especially in view of my own comment about the importance of the dwagons (which Jillian is effective -- perhaps uniquely effective -- at taking out) to Stanley. He'd probably prefer that Jillian either stayed imprisoned or got croaked (though Wanda has evidently managed to convince him that she's more valuable in the field, which I interpret as meaning it's worth it for the opportunity to periodically capture and interrogate a highly-placed enemy officer.)

[chionophile]

A lot of b*tching

Innovan, it sounds like you're trying to dislike this comic. Lighten up a little, will ya? The dwagons haven't had a chance to shine yet. Plus, Jillian's a warlord, I would expect her to be able to take a dwagon one on one and win.

[Imrahil]

Are those Ents I see in the background of panel 8?

Given that this is the first time we've seen animated trees in the comic (I believe), you might be on to something.

[Friv]

I don't get it.

Andsome sends all his crap-bats, peeps, and flys out on his rolled up carpet to her rescue, away from his main forces.

And then what? Parson send out the dragons to flame the crap-bats in one burst, all the antagonists are killed, and the rest of the army goes home with the story unresolved?

At best, this seems half-baked and unsatisfying.

Well, that's the plan. It's not as though Parson and Stanley are looking at this as Page 41. They're looking at this as the resolution of a long, brutal campaign, which might end with the defeat of the coalition leader. It's neither half-baked nor unsatisfying.... to them.

Somewhere the story has transitioned from the action comic world of "thunk" "whack" and "wham" into an overly-wordy clue-strewn subtle detective mystery of "what is Parson's magic bullet"?

I would suggest that it was, in fact, never an action comic. It's always been about "what's going on".

And the dwagon's have gotten into the "Worf" cliche. Worf growled and menaced on ST:TNG, but the writers seldom ever let him actually kick any ass because that would have resolved the plot too quickly. Meanwhile, anytime the writers wanted to show that a new visiting character was bad-ass, the first thing they did was tape a "Kick Me" sign to Worf's ass and throw him around like a sock puppet.

How did we show Jillian's bad-ass? She took out a dwagon.
No doubt we'll see that the encursion crew is also bad-ass because they'll knock out another dwagon or two before the battle is over.

Frankly, for all the build up, dwagons are extremely sub-par. They snorted and growled at Parson to no effect. They couldn't even take on a few owls, a lone rider and a single peep without taking a casuality.

I think that's a bit unfair. Jillian is specifically one of the stronger warriors on her side, and she was the only one to get a casualty off against the dragon - while she was "soloing" the blue, the other dwagons took out her forces without any effort. Then they took her out without any effort. Parson wasn't intimidated... because he wasn't thinking of his own safety. The dragons aren't a MacGuffin. They aren't invincible super-monsters that cannot ever be fought. They're just really dangerous creatures that form the bulk of Stanley's elites.

At best, this with be a Pyrrhic win with a heavy cost of more of the ferociously useless dwagons lost (hey, Tool, what's their maintenance per turn?). At worst, Andsome doesn't get anything more than scared with a close call and then is saved by Vinnie Doombat/Jillian, with the useless dwagons sliced into sushi segments.

And if I hear "My life for Jetstone" one more time, I hope it's the last.

You are assuming that the dragons are ferociously useless, which I find rather dubious.

Spoiler

Show

I imagine this fight is going to prove a solid win for Team Stanley, without Ansom getting killed. He'll lose a lot of troops, and possibly Vinnie or Weibiner, or Charlie. The situation will still be grim for the Knob, but slightly less so, and Ansom will have a major drama problem with Jillian. Of course, I could be wrong.

[innovan]

Innovan, it sounds like you're trying to dislike this comic.

That's your own projection, kiddo, because I'm on their side.

Here's a cookie. Chew it. Yum!

[pclips]

Hey chionophile I appreciate the sentiment, honestly. But less-than-complimentary feedback is often very helpful. People shouldn't be afraid of a pile-on for just posting how they feel.

That said... Yeah. The Dwagons have not yet had their day. You'll know by the end of the story whether or not they really get "Worfed."

[Doshi]

In the first quote she's trying to convince Stanley it's a good idea (Stanley is not Jillian's lover). In the second quote, she's setting Stanley up to accept Jillian's survival in the event that the plan "fails". It could be read as Wanda's own agenda, like that.

Yes, its clear that Wanda is manipulating both Parson and the Tool in this comic. Note how even though all the ideas in this plan apparently came from her, Wanda's managed to make it seem that this is Parson's plan. (Wanda told Parson that Anson would fly out personally to rescue Jillian, Wanda explains that they can't just force Jillian to write a note to Anson, so she has to be released. ) And since it's Parson's plan, who does the Tool blame if the plan fails? Parson, not Wanda.
Wanda's precise motives are a mystery. But it's worth noting that she's managed to manipulate the Tool and Parson into releasing Jillian, which is probably what she'd do if she really loved Jillian. I don't think anything Wanda says in this comic can be taken at face value. If she didn't sound ruthless and emotionally detached from Jillian, there is no way that she could have persuaded Parson and the Tool to go along with this plan.
And I'm pretty sure the plan will fail, precisely because Jillian is so unbeatable in combat.

[Ben_the_dragon]

Frankly, for all the build up, dwagons are extremely sub-par. They snorted and growled at Parson to no effect. They couldn't even take on a few owls, a lone rider and a single peep without taking a casuality.

At best, this with be a Pyrrhic win with a heavy cost of more of the ferociously useless dwagons lost (hey, Tool, what's their maintenance per turn?). At worst, Andsome doesn't get anything more than scared with a close call and then is saved by Vinnie Doombat/Jillian, with the useless dwagons sliced into sushi segments.

And if I hear "My life for Jetstone" one more time, I hope it's the last.

i think i will have to disagree with your comment about the dwagons, typing these chibby names are a pain in the butt :P.

wanda says that Jillian could "croak a small army with" chopsticks, so its not really hard to picture her taking out a dwagon, i would say they are on about par to each other. the battle between jillian and the dwagons took, by the looks of it, 2 rounds, four dwagons tanked the 6(?) Orlys without braking a sweat and jillian took out the blue, the next round one red knocked jillian out cold, and killed the gwifin(sp?) by itself.

i really think that jillian in equal to one dwagon, or a little stronger then a weak dwagon, but all in all, both units kick butt

[Krytha]

Wow this was pretty complex.

[Ben_the_dragon]

Friv it seems like we had the same idea

[Pepz]

yeah, wanda has a separate agenda all together here :) and I just love that look in the last panel :D

[Late Shift]

I must say I loved this ep. I really hope Wanda, and Jillian are working together as I would hate to think that Wanda is really that evil... I always pictured the Tool, and co. where more the missunderstood bad guys instead of the 'evil' bad guys.

[SteveMB]

yeah, wanda has a separate agenda all together here :) and I just love that look in the last panel :D

Yes, and the simple two-word sentence "Trust me." is just the perfect capper. It's what the reader knows that you shouldn't do, what Stanley and Parson are about to do, and what Jillian can't help doing.

[Harr]

Somewhere the story has transitioned from the action comic world of "thunk" "whack" and "wham" into an overly-wordy clue-strewn subtle detective mystery of "what is Parson's magic bullet"?

Heh. I'd agree with you on the 'overly-wordy clue-strewn subtley-mystery' thing... except... there was no transition. Erfworld's been overly-wordy, clue-strewn, subtle, and mysterious from the first page. That's it's style. That's why you would read it. I mean honestly, where, pray tell, do you see any kind of "thunk whack wham" anywhere in this comic?? Are you serious? Or just been reading another comic for the last four months? Lol.

And I say this without any intent to "defend" this comic, anyone who's read any post of mine will know that that's of no interest to me, I just call 'em as I see 'em.

With that out of the way, this is for certain the best-crafted comic from Erworld to date. Without taking the actual "plan" into account, anyone with an eye for such things can see that the dialogue is good, the pacing is excellent, the panel shots are dead on and interesting, the art is brilliant, and as much as I berate and roll my eyes at the tired "let's milk sexual tension!" tendencies of the comic... well, panel 4 was just exquisite.

As for the plan itself, I'll just state the obvious. Here goes: In many turn-based strategy wargames, especially computer TBS wargames, taking out the enemy leader is a Victory Condition. That means that yeah, you can have 1,000,000,000 enemy units still running around, if you kill their "Hero", or Lord, or Capital, whatever... You Win. That's it. And even if you don't win, by taking out the Leader or the Capital you almost certainly deprive every other unit of valuable +attack and +defense bonuses, cut off resource production in a major way, and generally pave the way to an easy win.

Parson's just thinking like what he should be thinking: like a gamer, not a wanna-be "armchair general". He knows he's in a game and he wants to win it, not to prove that he "knows stuff about real-world war and strategy", as so many people on these forums seem to be. These guys should pose less and play more ;)

That's not say I think its a GOOD plan, I don't think it is, I think it relies way too much on Wanda's assurances and secrets and on stuff Parson still doesn't even know. Which is to say, this is essentially Wanda's plan, not Parson. It makes him look like a tag-along to her Ladyship.

Anyways, to the author/artist, good job on this particular strip. This one and the blue vs. orange one are my favorites. Hope to see more.

[Scientivore]

Why do I get the feeling this is gonna lead to a gratuitous, mostly censored comic book sex scene?

I read Mung as an audience-insertion character; at the least, he was used as our ears. I even have a theory that it was so easy for Wanda to hypnotise Mung because the audience's presumed willing suspension of disbelief meant that he automatically failed his equivalent of a Will save, but that might be getting too meta.

In Page 28, before the "interrogation" of Jillian, Wanda tells us to stay outside. Afterward, in Page 39, Wanda refuses to answer our questions about what went on. So, I'm confident that Rob and Jamie have made the conscious decision to ensure that any homoerotic subtext between Wanda and Jillian remains subtext, not explicit. Xena: Warrior Princess is one successful precedent for that strategy.

[innovan]

less-than-complimentary feedback

Then let me be complimentary: Love the artwork, love the story, and the artists are growing in their skills with each passing month.

The usual Story Outline though is Intro-Skirmish-Investigate-Fight-Prepare-Big Fight-Resolution.

Writer's school says you either should have written this Fight with:

Lesser units from the Hero go up against the antagonist that are a tragic loss, but resolves the Hero more. (Possibly lose supporting character) Hero prepares by building the tech/uping his stats/ finding the magic sword to improve for next Fight.
--or--
Hero goes up against henchmen of the antagonist for a victory, improving the morale of the Hero more with this taste of success.

Here instead you're breaking convention by sending out the Hero's best units. Against not henchmen, but the antagonist himself.

There's a reason why scripts seldom do this. If you're not careful, you can easily paint yourself in a corner you can't get out of.

[JannaM]

I sense a great disturbance in the Kink, as if a thousand moralists cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Now I'm firmly convinced that Wanda has a nasty psychological grip on Jillian through a combination of torture, sensuality/sexuality, and magical compulsion. Love? Not exactly. Unless it's some strange definition of the word of which I was not previously aware.

That definition isn't overly strange. Apart from the usual explanations that a charm spell could have been used, or other sort of magic that meddles with the mind, there is a much more mundane definition at hand. Then again, I don't want to derail this thread into yet another Wanda/Jillian BDSM-or-not discussion. The Mord-Sith reference (white leathers), the "afterglow" in the dungeon and this page as well suggest what sort of D/s relationship both may share. A sadist/dominant doesn't neccessarily have to be emotionless, but self control and sufficient emotional distance when it counts are among the qualities one should have in order to control others. So who gets to see her emotions? My bet is on Jillian, since Parson and Stanley are but colleagues, not even friends.

On another note, Wanda's expression in panel 6 was just impressive. It seemed to me that she might have been worried or at least genuinely concerned about Jillian. I can't say if that frown was directed at the barbarian in disdain, or at the whole war situation that forced her to pursue that course of action. I can only appreciate the ambiguity that Rob and Jamie have woven into the comic yet again.

My thanks for keeping us on our toes

[SteveMB]

That's not say I think its a GOOD plan, I don't think it is, I think it relies way too much on Wanda's assurances and secrets and on stuff Parson still doesn't even know. Which is to say, this is essentially Wanda's plan, not Parson. It makes him look like a tag-along to her Ladyship.

The question is: a good plan for who? Insofar as Wanda does seem to have come up it, that would imply that either she's made some mistake or that the intended result she wants isn't entirely the same as what Parson wants.

Earlier in the thread, I noted that Wanda made several comments indicating that she didn't expect Jillian to survive, and Bogardan_Mage responded that this could be "selling" the plan to Stanley (who would just as soon not lose any more dwagons to that unrealistically oversized sword). If the real plan is not quite as advertised, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad plan -- in fact, as Doshi noted, making sure that Parson gets the blame if the plan fails (to achieve Stanley's objectives, which are not necessarily the same as Wanda's) is good planning indeed.

My read is that Wanda does want to protect Jillian, because she has a role in Wanda's future plans and/or because Wanda has developed her own sort of psychological bond to her.

[chionophile]

Hey chionophile I appreciate the sentiment, honestly. But less-than-complimentary feedback is often very helpful. People shouldn't be afraid of a pile-on for just posting how they feel.

That said... Yeah. The Dwagons have not yet had their day. You'll know by the end of the story whether or not they really get "Worfed."

Oh, yeah, I understand the need for criticism, I just got the impression that innovan was reaching a bit too far to find something to complain about. Especially since we haven't even gotten to the fight he's complaining about yet.

[JonathanC]

i don't think anyone can doubt that they are lovers now.

Emotionally manipulating someone you've been torturing into betraying her cause, then sending her back into the field as a double agent counts as romance these days? You kids and your whacky values.

Heaven forbid we simply admit that Wanda is evil.

[Adrien]

i don't think anyone can doubt that they are lovers now.

Pencil me in— cause that would be incredibly crass.

I mean, I'm not gonna completely rule out the possibility that two random objectively attractive female characters would happen to be attracted to each other. It's a funny old world, and I'm an open minded guy. It's statistically pretty unlikely, though, and if you ask me to play the odds I'm gonna put my twenty on "lipstick lesbians have been inserted into the media for vicarious male consumption" every time.

In our culture, homosexuality is a touchy area of human interaction, and handling it in a meaningful way is certainly deserving of respect. But cute lesbians are about as safe as it gets. If I get a choice, I'd like to give an artist the benefit of the doubt as saying, "of course not, you pigheaded fanboy" rather than "aww yeah, she hittin' that."

Or, uh, what he said ^^^

[Marller]

Certainly a complex comic. Wanda weaves a fine net of subterfuge.

[Ave]

It wouldn't surprise me to learn the two ladies are playing their own game against both of the other sides.

That's pretty much down the drain since Wanda hurt Jillian at least mentally.
There is only one mistress and it is Wanda.

Btw, there is too much sex in this stuff to be a pure 'turn based strategy wargame world'. Well, i mean, i've never seen any where you could control a unit by sex :)
Wouldn't this strengthen the theory that all this stuff is in Parson's head?

[SteveMB]

Pencil me in— cause that would be incredibly crass.

I mean, I'm not gonna completely rule out the possibility that two random objectively attractive female characters would happen to be attracted to each other. It's a funny old world, and I'm an open minded guy. It's statistically pretty unlikely, though, and if you ask me to play the odds I'm gonna put my twenty on "lipstick lesbians have been inserted into the media for vicarious male consumption" every time.

In this case, I'll put my twenty on "the author figured that, given the situation as defined (there's no overwhelming "ta-da, you will obey my orders" mind control magic available, but Wanda can get what she needs via a systematic campaign of manipulating and emotionally bonding Jillian to her), completely ignoring the sexual component of human bonding would be a weak cop-out".

[KeiranHalcyon]

On another note, Wanda's expression in panel 6 was just impressive. It seemed to me that she might have been worried or at least genuinely concerned about Jillian. I can't say if that frown was directed at the barbarian in disdain, or at the whole war situation that forced her to pursue that course of action. I can only appreciate the ambiguity that Rob and Jamie have woven into the comic yet again.

I took that look completely differently. I thought she was smiling as one does when one's evil plan unfolds exactly as intended.

Btw, there is too much sex in this stuff to be a pure 'turn based strategy wargame world'. Well, i mean, i've never seen any where you could control a unit by sex :)
Wouldn't this strengthen the theory that all this stuff is in Parson's head?

I don't think that's beyond the scope of a war game. From the wargamer's perspective, she's controlling Jillian (at least to a degree). In a pure wargame, the mechanism would be left unstated. But because we get to observe the characters, we get hints about the mechanism.

Or to put it another way, who's to say that having your spy in CIV2 "bribe" an enemy unit to join your side didn't involve an element of seduction?

[Adrien]

In this case, I'll put my twenty on "the author figured that, given the situation as defined (there's no overwhelming "ta-da, you will obey my orders" mind control magic available, but Wanda can get what she needs via a systematic campaign of manipulating and emotionally bonding Jillian to her), completely ignoring the sexual component of human bonding would be a weak cop-out".

Well, obviously in this case one would play to lose.

[JonathanC]

In this case, I'll put my twenty on "the author figured that, given the situation as defined (there's no overwhelming "ta-da, you will obey my orders" mind control magic available, but Wanda can get what she needs via a systematic campaign of manipulating and emotionally bonding Jillian to her), completely ignoring the sexual component of human bonding would be a weak cop-out".

Most people who exercise control over others through sex do so by withholding it, actually (while at the same time creating an intense desire for such in the target). Based on their behavior, I have serious doubts that Wanda and Jillian are in what most people would consider to be an intimate relationship.

[Erk]

Man, the more times I read this comic and the whole interrogation scene, the more I want to read it again and again.

I am beginning to suspect Wanda could give SHODAN a run for her money. I am sure she has an ulterior motive now. Probably something big. That half-smile in the last panel of this page... /shudder/ she is eeebillllllllllll and I want to read more. I just also want to be as many realities away from her as I can be.

I think it's kind of irrelevant whether or not Wanda and Jillian have actually had sex. It's clear from panel 2 and 4 here, and many other interrogation panels, that there is a strongly sexualised element to Jillian's conversion, and whether it has gone "all the way" or not doesn't change the plot importance or the pretty clear fact that the torture involved sexuality... which isn't a big surprise when it is an attempt to control, not truly break, the mind. 'Sides, it isn't like we're going to get a real sex scene here, thank goodness. (for that matter, we don't even know if people have sex in Erfworld. Maybe they just cuddle, and find babies under cabbage leaves).

Regarding Wanda's own thoughts: judging from Wanda's reaction to knowing Jillian had been captured, way back on page 24, she has a strong emotional tie into this interrogation/control as well. We just don't know her well enough to know if that is because Jillian is a vital means to Wanda's eeeebilll ends, or if it's because she has her own twisted domination <3wubbycuddly<3 for Jillian.

WANDA IS SCARY.

That is all.


PS: Innovan, I think you are reading the dwagon thing backwards. The dwagons aren't being worfed, rather, Jillian is getting kinda worfed. Her performance in that battle, her bio, and Wanda's reference to her power indicate Jillian is bad ass... yet she hasn't been given chances to shine, getting captured and then mind-controlled barely into her first challenging encounter, and making her appear a lot weaker than she prolly is.

But we'll know more when it comes time for the final Battle for Gobwin Knob MAN I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE NEXT COMIC. yeargh.

[Pronounceable]

Wanda looks more and more like the power behind the throne. She looks "wicked" in the last panel.

Poor Jillian...