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Thread: Jillian

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    Default Jillian

    Tragic stooge
    Willing stooge
    Tragic pawn
    Willing pawn

    All the comments thus far are Wanda biased but nobody has thought how Jillian is aligned or whether she is willing, so I now pose the question.
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    Default Re: Jillian

    HMMM that was meant to be a poll

    Treat this as a poll please

    If you can convert this to a poll, please do so.
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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by Strengfellow View Post
    HMMM that was meant to be a poll

    Treat this as a poll please

    If you can convert this to a poll, please do so.
    The difference between "pawn" and "stooge" would be what, precisely?

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    Default Re: Jillian

    Stooge implys a level of complicity

    Whilst a pawn is a victim of circumstance
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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by Strengfellow View Post
    Stooge implys a level of complicity

    Whilst a pawn is a victim of circumstance
    Er, doesn't that distinction mean approximately the same thing as "willing" or "tragic" (as used in the other axis)?
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-04-15 at 04:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Jillian

    I don't think that it's as simple as willing vs. unwilling or accomplice vs. pawn. I think that Jillian's indecisiveness creates a need for clarity and that her impulsiveness makes her susceptible to Wanda's presentation of a way to meet that need. I think that she knows (or at least suspects) that she's being used and feels bad about; she has some kind of feelings for Ansom, even if she's not sure what to do about it. Then, I think that goes through with it anyway, feeling like she must, because it appears -- for now, on the surface -- to be meeting her needs.
    Last edited by Scientivore; 2007-04-15 at 04:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Jillian

    Ok
    A tragic stooge is controlled completely And knows that she is controlled
    A willing stooge is cognisant of the controll and requested the possition
    A tragic pawn does not that she is controlled and as such thinks she is free
    A willing pawn knows she is controlled and embrases it
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    Default Re: Jillian

    As I was taking a walk, I realized that I can describe her role in two words...if I make them up: "sympathetragic accomplipawn". If forced to do it in one it would be "human". I think that she's somewhat cooperating, with partial knowledge; deceived, and making choices while believing that she has none.
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    Default Re: Jillian

    Well put, Scientivore.
    "River" cancels eat: Food is problematic.

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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by Strengfellow View Post
    Ok
    A tragic stooge is controlled completely And knows that she is controlled
    A willing stooge is cognisant of the controll and requested the possition
    A tragic pawn does not that she is controlled and as such thinks she is free
    A willing pawn knows she is controlled and embrases it
    Wanda's description in 44:2 ("Not entirely unwitting. Nor entirely controlled. It's... complex.") seems to fit what we've seen so far better than any of those categories.

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    Default Re: Jillian

    Fair point.

    but just how far under Wandas influence is Jill
    I am fully torn between loveing it and lost
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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by Strengfellow View Post
    Fair point.

    but just how far under Wandas influence is Jill
    I am fully torn between loveing it and lost
    I think Jillian has, mostly subconsciously thanks to the torture, formed a lovelike attraction to Wanda. Wanda has convinced Jillian that this is something Jillian can't control or deny, more of a compulsion magic than anything, thereby convincing Jillian she can't do what she wants. She is forced to obey Wanda, she won't try not to. In reality she is obeying Wanda more because she has chosen to, because she's formed a twisted love for her torturer, than because she has to.

    Which means if Ansom snaps Jillian out of it, if that bit of indecision we've seen with her and Ansom comes out again, she could fight off Wanda's influence, because this is not a magical compulsion. Magic only served to give Jillian a conscious excuse for her behaviour so that guilt would not lead her to betray her Mistress.

    Make sense? That is my theory.
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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by Erk View Post
    I think Jillian has, mostly subconsciously thanks to the torture, formed a lovelike attraction to Wanda. Wanda has convinced Jillian that this is something Jillian can't control or deny, more of a compulsion magic than anything, thereby convincing Jillian she can't do what she wants. She is forced to obey Wanda, she won't try not to. In reality she is obeying Wanda more because she has chosen to, because she's formed a twisted love for her torturer, than because she has to.

    Which means if Ansom snaps Jillian out of it, if that bit of indecision we've seen with her and Ansom comes out again, she could fight off Wanda's influence, because this is not a magical compulsion. Magic only served to give Jillian a conscious excuse for her behaviour so that guilt would not lead her to betray her Mistress.

    Make sense? That is my theory.
    I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense that Jillian (with only a layperson's understanding of what magic can and cannot do) might accept that she has been mind-controlled rather than "merely" strongly influenced if that belief enables her to avoid the difficulties of "knowing what she wants".

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    Default Re: Jillian

    So Erk what your saying is that Jill is a willing pawn because she wants to please Wanda.

    If im mistaken please feel free to correct me.
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    Default Re: Jillian

    Somewhat, but you're still oversimplifying it. She thinks she has no choice, that her will is irrelevant. If she believed she could affect her actions she would, but Wanda has convinced her she has no choice.
    "River" cancels eat: Food is problematic.

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    Default Re: Jillian

    Solid reasoning.

    But far from conclusive.
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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by Erk View Post
    Somewhat, but you're still oversimplifying it. She thinks she has no choice, that her will is irrelevant. If she believed she could affect her actions she would, but Wanda has convinced her she has no choice.
    "You never had as much choice as it seemed."

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    Default Re: Jillian

    i dunno, not enough info for me yet.
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    That is one of the lines I am basing my assumptions on :)
    "River" cancels eat: Food is problematic.

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    Default Re: Jillian

    ok all that does is say shes either a willing/forced/stooge/pawn it gives no intel re her motive.
    Last edited by Strengfellow; 2007-04-15 at 06:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    Woah! I hadn't made that specific connection. You're saying that Wanda is using Jillian's realization when the hypnotism wore off that she hadn't been in control (when she thought she was) to make her think that she isn't in control (now that she is)?

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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by Scientivore View Post
    Woah! I hadn't made that specific connection. You're saying that Wanda is using Jillian's realization when the hypnotism wore off that she hadn't been in control (when she thought she was) to make her think that she isn't in control (now that she is)?

    Wicked.
    I must admit that I hadn't thought it through in that level of detail (I cited it as an example of Wanda reinforcing the notion "you never were really in control of yourself", fostering the obvious corollaries "you are not in control of yourself now" and the real prize "you will never be in control of yourself, so you might as well go with the flow and follow my suggestions"). However, I think your analysis is sound.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-04-15 at 07:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Jillian

    Now, this is some deep analysis. You're saying that Wanda has convinced Jillian that she's been magicked into submission whereas it's just her own compulsion to please Wanda...

    Yes, wicked indeed.

    And that would make Jillian tragic pawn in my book.
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    Default Re: Jillian

    I think that Jillian is under Wanda's thumb, and constricted both by Ansom's desires and the odd circumstances of her status as "secret royal" and whatever else might also go along with that. But I think that Jillian is also in agony because of this situation, and when it exceeds her ability to cope with it I think she'll make her play to break free from any/everybody's influence and seriously monkeywrench even the best laid plans.

    Maybe with an Arkenmonkeywrench.
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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by Scientivore View Post
    Woah! I hadn't made that specific connection. You're saying that Wanda is using Jillian's realization when the hypnotism wore off that she hadn't been in control (when she thought she was) to make her think that she isn't in control (now that she is)?

    Wicked.
    I thought she was refering to Nobles... ?

    Good thought though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tividar's Thorn View Post
    I thought she was refering to Nobles... ?
    How so? The only item in the strip that relates to nobles is the mention that Jillian is a royal (and the indication that she prefers that not be known) before the "reset" and Jillian's emotional "crash", and I don't see how that really connects to Wanda's comments after the "crash".

    However, on the subject of that page, I had yet another thought that retweaked my interpretations. Earlier, it seemed to me that "Don't wallow in guilt..." (38:6) and "You'll miss out on that reward you've earned." (38:10) were mutually undercutting -- reminding Jillian that she was due a "reward" for not having "held anything back" and thereby being "very good" would surely tend to foment guilt. If Wanda was tryiing to comfort Jillian at this point, the latter comment would be counterproductive; if she was trying to torment her further, the former would be.

    However, the former comment in full was: ""Don't wallow in guilt, my dearest. You never had as much choice as it seemed." Rejecting guilt is associated with accepting that Jillian isn't in charge of herself. On the other hand, the "reward" comment evokes guilt if Jillian feels a sense of personal responsibility for the act of answering Wanda's questions. Taken together, the comments actually work together very well -- taking responsibility for one's own choices is associated with incapacitating emotional pain; accepting that she doesn't really have choices and following Wanda's direction is associated with relief from that pain.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-04-17 at 08:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Jillian

    I guess you're right, I had always interpreted it that Wanda had something to do with Jillian not being known as a Noble, maybe some back story?

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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by Tividar's Thorn View Post
    I guess you're right, I had always interpreted it that Wanda had something to do with Jillian not being known as a Noble, maybe some back story?
    It's possible that there's a connection (especially if Jillian is of the royal house that was deposed by Stanley and Wanda was working for him during or immediately after the original coup), but we don't really know much about those events.

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    Default Re: Jillian

    It'd hadn't ever occurred to me that magic might be involved in what Wanda's doing to Jillian 'till I looked at the forums.

    I figure seduction might be part of it, but mostly she's formed an attachment to Wanda after frequently tortured and 'broken' by her.

    I'm probably not the first person to point this out but notice in strip 30 she wants to do it 'the easy way' and she's addressing Wanda as 'Mistress' already and no spells have been cast.

    Of course she could be lying but I don't think that's very consistent, in every page she's seemed to be very submissive to Wanda. What some people take to be the spell ending in page 38 I think is just realisation and shame setting in.

    Also I don't think 'the very hard way' would be a mind control spell.

    Just my two cents.
    Also my first post.

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    Default Re: Jillian

    Quote Originally Posted by Laconic View Post
    It'd hadn't ever occurred to me that magic might be involved in what Wanda's doing to Jillian 'till I looked at the forums.

    I figure seduction might be part of it, but mostly she's formed an attachment to Wanda after frequently tortured and 'broken' by her.

    I'm probably not the first person to point this out but notice in strip 30 she wants to do it 'the easy way' and she's addressing Wanda as 'Mistress' already and no spells have been cast.

    Of course she could be lying but I don't think that's very consistent, in every page she's seemed to be very submissive to Wanda. What some people take to be the spell ending in page 38 I think is just realisation and shame setting in.

    Also I don't think 'the very hard way' would be a mind control spell.

    Just my two cents.
    Also my first post.
    It's clear that Wanda uses some sort of spell on Jillian; she cast it on page 30 and if you look closely you can see effect sparklies around Jillian's head on page 36. That said, it seems unlikely that the spell was some sort of overwhelming "mind control" -- if she had that, she wouldn't need to bother with anything else. The most straightforward interpretation is that it was something that "softened up" Jillian for Wanda's other methods.

    That said, I agree that Jillian has formed an emotional bond to Wanda as a result of Wanda's working on her during previous captivities. I see her "let's both of us get out of here" as a result of that (though not at all the result Wanda was looking for, obviously).

    I agree that Jillian's "crash" on page 38 is probably sudden realization setting in -- the question is why this happened suddenly at the moment of the dawn "reset" (note that the rations popped and her wounds healed at the same time). It seems to fit the notion that the spell had left her muddle-headed and suggestible, it expired at dawn, and she was now suddenly clear-headed and aware of what had just happened. If Wanda expected that outcome (and presumably she knows the effects of her own spells, even the boring old non-Croakamancy ones), that might be why she described it as "the very hard way".

    Unfortunately, it's hard to tell if the "sparklies" are there in page 38 frame 2; they're definitely absent in frames 3-4. If they are, that would pretty much confirm that the spell expired at that moment.

    I commented at some length on my interpretation of Wanda's initial comments to Jillian in the thread "When Prisoner Says 'The Easy Way'".
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-04-22 at 11:05 AM.

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