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Thread: Jillian
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2007-04-15, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- on some forum, somewhere
- Gender
Jillian
Tragic stooge
Willing stooge
Tragic pawn
Willing pawn
All the comments thus far are Wanda biased but nobody has thought how Jillian is aligned or whether she is willing, so I now pose the question.Exploding nuns, just what everyone needs...
Never were truer words spoken ThorFluff
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2007-04-15, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
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- on some forum, somewhere
- Gender
Re: Jillian
HMMM that was meant to be a poll
Treat this as a poll please
If you can convert this to a poll, please do so.Exploding nuns, just what everyone needs...
Never were truer words spoken ThorFluff
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2007-04-15, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Gender
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2007-04-15, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- on some forum, somewhere
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Re: Jillian
Stooge implys a level of complicity
Whilst a pawn is a victim of circumstanceExploding nuns, just what everyone needs...
Never were truer words spoken ThorFluff
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2007-04-15, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Northern Virginia
- Gender
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2007-04-15, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Portland, Oregon
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Re: Jillian
I don't think that it's as simple as willing vs. unwilling or accomplice vs. pawn. I think that Jillian's indecisiveness creates a need for clarity and that her impulsiveness makes her susceptible to Wanda's presentation of a way to meet that need. I think that she knows (or at least suspects) that she's being used and feels bad about; she has some kind of feelings for Ansom, even if she's not sure what to do about it. Then, I think that goes through with it anyway, feeling like she must, because it appears -- for now, on the surface -- to be meeting her needs.
Last edited by Scientivore; 2007-04-15 at 04:45 PM.
My avatar is a remix that I made of Prince Ansom. Resource credit:
Snag some Erfworld avatars and backgrounds, make some lolerfs and motivators (or demotivators), read my Erfworld fanmix, or check out my latest spotlight on an under-discussed webcomic: Head Trip (Scilight #13)!
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2007-04-15, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- on some forum, somewhere
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Re: Jillian
Ok
A tragic stooge is controlled completely And knows that she is controlled
A willing stooge is cognisant of the controll and requested the possition
A tragic pawn does not that she is controlled and as such thinks she is free
A willing pawn knows she is controlled and embrases itExploding nuns, just what everyone needs...
Never were truer words spoken ThorFluff
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2007-04-15, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Portland, Oregon
- Gender
Re: Jillian
As I was taking a walk, I realized that I can describe her role in two words...if I make them up: "sympathetragic accomplipawn". If forced to do it in one it would be "human". I think that she's somewhat cooperating, with partial knowledge; deceived, and making choices while believing that she has none.
My avatar is a remix that I made of Prince Ansom. Resource credit:
Snag some Erfworld avatars and backgrounds, make some lolerfs and motivators (or demotivators), read my Erfworld fanmix, or check out my latest spotlight on an under-discussed webcomic: Head Trip (Scilight #13)!
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2007-04-15, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- The frozen wastes
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Re: Jillian
Well put, Scientivore.
"River" cancels eat: Food is problematic.
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2007-04-15, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Gender
Re: Jillian
Wanda's description in 44:2 ("Not entirely unwitting. Nor entirely controlled. It's... complex.") seems to fit what we've seen so far better than any of those categories.
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2007-04-15, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- on some forum, somewhere
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Re: Jillian
Fair point.
but just how far under Wandas influence is Jill
I am fully torn between loveing it and lostExploding nuns, just what everyone needs...
Never were truer words spoken ThorFluff
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2007-04-15, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- The frozen wastes
- Gender
Re: Jillian
I think Jillian has, mostly subconsciously thanks to the torture, formed a lovelike attraction to Wanda. Wanda has convinced Jillian that this is something Jillian can't control or deny, more of a compulsion magic than anything, thereby convincing Jillian she can't do what she wants. She is forced to obey Wanda, she won't try not to. In reality she is obeying Wanda more because she has chosen to, because she's formed a twisted love for her torturer, than because she has to.
Which means if Ansom snaps Jillian out of it, if that bit of indecision we've seen with her and Ansom comes out again, she could fight off Wanda's influence, because this is not a magical compulsion. Magic only served to give Jillian a conscious excuse for her behaviour so that guilt would not lead her to betray her Mistress.
Make sense? That is my theory."River" cancels eat: Food is problematic.
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2007-04-15, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Northern Virginia
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Re: Jillian
I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense that Jillian (with only a layperson's understanding of what magic can and cannot do) might accept that she has been mind-controlled rather than "merely" strongly influenced if that belief enables her to avoid the difficulties of "knowing what she wants".
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2007-04-15, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- on some forum, somewhere
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Re: Jillian
So Erk what your saying is that Jill is a willing pawn because she wants to please Wanda.
If im mistaken please feel free to correct me.Exploding nuns, just what everyone needs...
Never were truer words spoken ThorFluff
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2007-04-15, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- The frozen wastes
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Re: Jillian
Somewhat, but you're still oversimplifying it. She thinks she has no choice, that her will is irrelevant. If she believed she could affect her actions she would, but Wanda has convinced her she has no choice.
"River" cancels eat: Food is problematic.
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2007-04-15, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- on some forum, somewhere
- Gender
Re: Jillian
Solid reasoning.
But far from conclusive.Exploding nuns, just what everyone needs...
Never were truer words spoken ThorFluff
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2007-04-15, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Northern Virginia
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Re: Jillian
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2007-04-15, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- Michigan
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Re: Jillian
i dunno, not enough info for me yet.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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2007-04-15, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- The frozen wastes
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2007-04-15, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Jillian
ok all that does is say shes either a willing/forced/stooge/pawn it gives no intel re her motive.
Last edited by Strengfellow; 2007-04-15 at 06:47 PM.
Exploding nuns, just what everyone needs...
Never were truer words spoken ThorFluff
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2007-04-15, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Portland, Oregon
- Gender
Re: Jillian
My avatar is a remix that I made of Prince Ansom. Resource credit:
Snag some Erfworld avatars and backgrounds, make some lolerfs and motivators (or demotivators), read my Erfworld fanmix, or check out my latest spotlight on an under-discussed webcomic: Head Trip (Scilight #13)!
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2007-04-15, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Gender
Re: Jillian
I must admit that I hadn't thought it through in that level of detail (I cited it as an example of Wanda reinforcing the notion "you never were really in control of yourself", fostering the obvious corollaries "you are not in control of yourself now" and the real prize "you will never be in control of yourself, so you might as well go with the flow and follow my suggestions"). However, I think your analysis is sound.
Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-04-15 at 07:16 PM.
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2007-04-16, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Jillian
Now, this is some deep analysis. You're saying that Wanda has convinced Jillian that she's been magicked into submission whereas it's just her own compulsion to please Wanda...
Yes, wicked indeed.
And that would make Jillian tragic pawn in my book.Founder of the Fanclub of the (Late) Chief of Cliffport Police Department (He shall live forever in our hearts)
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
Shameless shill:
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2007-04-16, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- ohio
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Re: Jillian
I think that Jillian is under Wanda's thumb, and constricted both by Ansom's desires and the odd circumstances of her status as "secret royal" and whatever else might also go along with that. But I think that Jillian is also in agony because of this situation, and when it exceeds her ability to cope with it I think she'll make her play to break free from any/everybody's influence and seriously monkeywrench even the best laid plans.
Maybe with an Arkenmonkeywrench.might just play the wall with this mean look on my grill
act like i'm the hater that hates you from hateville
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Though I may not appear to be an actual hater, I assure you, my quiet hate for the stupid is very real, and I do have both authentic hater cred and a ballpeen hammer."
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2007-04-16, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Illinois, USA
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2007-04-16, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jillian
How so? The only item in the strip that relates to nobles is the mention that Jillian is a royal (and the indication that she prefers that not be known) before the "reset" and Jillian's emotional "crash", and I don't see how that really connects to Wanda's comments after the "crash".
However, on the subject of that page, I had yet another thought that retweaked my interpretations. Earlier, it seemed to me that "Don't wallow in guilt..." (38:6) and "You'll miss out on that reward you've earned." (38:10) were mutually undercutting -- reminding Jillian that she was due a "reward" for not having "held anything back" and thereby being "very good" would surely tend to foment guilt. If Wanda was tryiing to comfort Jillian at this point, the latter comment would be counterproductive; if she was trying to torment her further, the former would be.
However, the former comment in full was: ""Don't wallow in guilt, my dearest. You never had as much choice as it seemed." Rejecting guilt is associated with accepting that Jillian isn't in charge of herself. On the other hand, the "reward" comment evokes guilt if Jillian feels a sense of personal responsibility for the act of answering Wanda's questions. Taken together, the comments actually work together very well -- taking responsibility for one's own choices is associated with incapacitating emotional pain; accepting that she doesn't really have choices and following Wanda's direction is associated with relief from that pain.Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-04-17 at 08:54 AM.
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2007-04-16, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
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- Illinois, USA
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Re: Jillian
I guess you're right, I had always interpreted it that Wanda had something to do with Jillian not being known as a Noble, maybe some back story?
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2007-04-19, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-04-22, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- London
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Re: Jillian
It'd hadn't ever occurred to me that magic might be involved in what Wanda's doing to Jillian 'till I looked at the forums.
I figure seduction might be part of it, but mostly she's formed an attachment to Wanda after frequently tortured and 'broken' by her.
I'm probably not the first person to point this out but notice in strip 30 she wants to do it 'the easy way' and she's addressing Wanda as 'Mistress' already and no spells have been cast.
Of course she could be lying but I don't think that's very consistent, in every page she's seemed to be very submissive to Wanda. What some people take to be the spell ending in page 38 I think is just realisation and shame setting in.
Also I don't think 'the very hard way' would be a mind control spell.
Just my two cents.
Also my first post.
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2007-04-22, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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Re: Jillian
It's clear that Wanda uses some sort of spell on Jillian; she cast it on page 30 and if you look closely you can see effect sparklies around Jillian's head on page 36. That said, it seems unlikely that the spell was some sort of overwhelming "mind control" -- if she had that, she wouldn't need to bother with anything else. The most straightforward interpretation is that it was something that "softened up" Jillian for Wanda's other methods.
That said, I agree that Jillian has formed an emotional bond to Wanda as a result of Wanda's working on her during previous captivities. I see her "let's both of us get out of here" as a result of that (though not at all the result Wanda was looking for, obviously).
I agree that Jillian's "crash" on page 38 is probably sudden realization setting in -- the question is why this happened suddenly at the moment of the dawn "reset" (note that the rations popped and her wounds healed at the same time). It seems to fit the notion that the spell had left her muddle-headed and suggestible, it expired at dawn, and she was now suddenly clear-headed and aware of what had just happened. If Wanda expected that outcome (and presumably she knows the effects of her own spells, even the boring old non-Croakamancy ones), that might be why she described it as "the very hard way".
Unfortunately, it's hard to tell if the "sparklies" are there in page 38 frame 2; they're definitely absent in frames 3-4. If they are, that would pretty much confirm that the spell expired at that moment.
I commented at some length on my interpretation of Wanda's initial comments to Jillian in the thread "When Prisoner Says 'The Easy Way'".Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-04-22 at 11:05 AM.