V's change in alignment, Barred school.

[Xihirli]

Vaarsuvius was Neutral Good in this comic:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html
That's how Unholy Blight worked on vir despite vir alignment as True Neutral should have allowed V to overcome it rather easily, if not bypass it entirely.
What pushed V into True Neutral?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html
Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion.
Then the Chimera screamed out "the horror... the horror!" V was shocked and guilty, though, because of vir's lack of emotional involvement at this point, did not share this with the rest of the party. Vaarsuvius forsook Conjuration and made it vir barred school, instead of what was previously V's second barred school, illusion, which explains why V hardly ever uses this school and is actually behind Elan as far as that school is concerned. Invisibility was also not cast until after the Linear Guild was dealt with the first time, so V could well have gained a level since #20. V does later say that he chose Conjuration as his barred school before "the rules of the universe have since been rewritten," but probably ve simply didn't check the rules in the 20 strips from the 3.5 update to vir's attack on Trigak. This explains the shift in V's alignment as well as why ve no longer uses Conjuration. It also gives us sort of a prelude to V's second (possible) alignment change with Familicide, which is from Necromancy, Conjuration's evil twin.

This is being posted to have this either violently shot down or (pretty please ) declared canon.
If anyone would like to point out some D&D rules that support this or make it impossible, that's fine. Or perhaps there are some other gaps that can be filled in.

GO

[Porthos]

Unholy Blight still affects Neutrals.

[Xihirli]

"The spell deals only half damage to creatures who are neither evil nor good, and they are not sickened. Such a creature can reduce the damage in half again (down to one-quarter) with a successful Will save."

They are not sickened.

[Siosilvar]

I'm pretty sure that strip was written before Rich had plotted out the story and made V into a Neutral character. And the tentacles were because while he tends to adhere to D&D rules, he won't let them get in the way of a joke (or the story, for that matter).

[Xihirli]

Yes, I know. The early strips sometimes have an issue tying in to the current strips. That's what this fan theory is supposed to fix.

[Murk]

I like the theory. I'm not a D&D expert, so the fact that I didn't know you can change barred schools doesn't seem a problem to me.

I'm still not sure why Evans tentacles would be any more evil than, say, burning your enemies slowly to the ground, freezing their limbs of or poisoning them horribly, but, eh, sometimes the big Alignment Meters can be a bit fickle.

This does give the first strips a completely different feel. Instead of quick jokes without much character development, we have our first major alignment change within the first twenty strips! Wow! The comic has never been this intense ever since!

[Porthos]

They are not sickened.

V doesn't have to be sickened to still be complaining.

[Keltest]

Well, I mean, its a theory that relies on one of the characters deliberately stating misinformation, so...

[Xihirli]

It depends on misinformation being stated how?

[Keltest]

It depends on misinformation being stated how?

V says that he barred conjuration before the change to 3.5, ie before the first page of the first comic.

[Xihirli]

I think I already addressed that, it's only been an hour or so at strip 20. In a dungeon away from new spells, V wouldn't have known about Teleport's change until at least strip 151.

[Keltest]

I think I already addressed that, it's only been an hour or so at strip 20. In a dungeon away from new spells, V wouldn't have known about Teleport's change until at least strip 151.

So? That still makes his statement wrong, since he knows full well when the laws of reality were rewritten.

[Xihirli]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html

Perhaps ve simply didn't want to waste time explaining vir change at the time, as they were on a time-sensitive mission. Or ve was still ashamed. Any number of reasons to not bother about explaining everything.

[Keltest]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html

Perhaps ve simply didn't want to waste time explaining vir change at the time, as they were on a time-sensitive mission. Or ve was still ashamed. Any number of reasons to not bother about explaining everything.

So, again, V deliberately spoke incorrectly.

[Murk]

So, again, V deliberately spoke incorrectly.

Since we're dealing here with a change of school indirectly caused by a change in alignment - if I understand correctly - a little shame and guilt would not be farfetched. And what better way to hide shame than by lying?

[Keltest]

Since we're dealing here with a change of school indirectly caused by a change in alignment - if I understand correctly - a little shame and guilt would not be farfetched. And what better way to hide shame than by lying?

Im not saying its explicitly impossible, but it relies on a completely unsubstantiated assumption. Its not any more likely than Belkar surviving his prophecy because he is actually Redcloak's Niece polymorphed into a Halfling and given false memories to protect her from Xykon.

[ranagrande]

Im not saying its explicitly impossible, but it relies on a completely unsubstantiated assumption. Its not any more likely than Belkar surviving his prophecy because he is actually Redcloak's Niece polymorphed into a Halfling and given false memories to protect her from Xykon.

That sounds reasonable. I kind of want that to happen now.

[martianmister]

S7he used to be good aligned:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=308

It's either changed or retconed sometime between the Gate's explosion and Miko's attack.

[Xihirli]

Im not saying its explicitly impossible, but it relies on a completely unsubstantiated assumption. Its not any more likely than Belkar surviving his prophecy because he is actually Redcloak's Niece polymorphed into a Halfling and given false memories to protect her from Xykon.

In that mine only requires one assumption (V feels shame at violating a sentient creature with spiked tentacles) while your example that is seemingly designed only to hurt my feelings assumes that
A) The human family that raised Redcloak's niece knows about Xykon.
B) They thought that polymorphing her into a (MALE) halfling would protect her.
C) They thought that (s)he would be safer knowing nothing about the sorcerer she was supposed to be hiding from.
D) They had access to a permanent polymorphing wizard
E) They think Xykon actually cares enough about Redcloak's niece to go after her.
And probably a dozen more I can't even think of.

[Xihirli]

S7he used to be good aligned:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=308

It's either changed or retconed sometime between the Gate's explosion and Miko's attack.

AHA! One of the base tenants of my theory is confirmed by Word of Giant!

[D.One]

Well, word of Giant confirms the alignment part, and it seems a common game situation: The player started playing a Neutral Good Elven Wizard and, by the end (or in the middle) of the first adventure, he perceived his character would be more satisfatory if it was True Neutral. He talks with the DM, who agrees with the change (it doesn't create any major plot problems), and that's it: the alignment changes before "the real game" begins.
If needed be, they could even justify it "in story" saying that the character was already in the path of changing.

That said, I don't see the "Evan spiked tentacles" joke as the mark of the change, and, for all I know, one can't change barred schools, so I'd put that as a homebrewed spell (which it is) in another school.

[Jay R]

I explain away a lot of the first 100 strip by assuming that this universe is the equivalent of one with a new DM, who hasn't yet figured out the rules, and applies them inconsistently for awhile. The Unholy Blight affected V because the DM failed to remember that it shouldn't.

Yes, I know that there is no actual DM. But since the universe is similar to one in which the D&D rules work, it can certainly start out as similar to one in which the rules don't work consistently for awhile, and I've seen plenty of those.

[Zyzzyva]

I explain away a lot of the first 100 strip by assuming that this universe is the equivalent of one with a new DM, who hasn't yet figured out the rules, and applies them inconsistently for awhile. The Unholy Blight affected V because the DM failed to remember that it shouldn't.

Yes, I know that there is no actual DM. But since the universe is similar to one in which the D&D rules work, it can certainly start out as similar to one in which the rules don't work consistently for awhile, and I've seen plenty of those.

That's more or less my take. At no point would Haley decide to hang out with Belkar rather than Elan, and lo: she has never done so.

[Xihirli]

That's more or less my take. At no point would Haley decide to hang out with Belkar rather than Elan, and lo: she has never done so.

Except also in Azure city because Belkar also had ranks in Hide, and none of them thought he was evil until #11. So no, that's not inconsistent at all.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html

[An Enemy Spy]

I think the problem we're running up against here is that we're talking about events that happened long before the Giant really had a good idea of what he was doing with this comic. Other than the vague "defeat the lich" goal, I don't think he had a story planned out or that the characters were any more fleshed out than just being basic archetypes to write jokes around. Roy is the beleaguered straight man, Haley is greedy, Elan is an idiot, Vaarsuvius is the stuck up intellectual, Durkon is a dwarf, and Belkar is a jerk.
It wasn't until later that the characters received deeper... um, depth.

[hamishspence]

I think the problem we're running up against here is that we're talking about events that happened long before the Giant really had a good idea of what he was doing with this comic.

Indeed. In this post - there's a reference to The Giant changing his mind about "everyone in the party is good except Belkar":

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...4&postcount=29

Unfortunately, the thread that's being quoted, seems to have vanished.

[Xihirli]

Yes, I realize this wasn't what the Giant intended. I was hoping he could adopt this as canon if he happened to notice the thread. Sometimes that sort of thing happens, it did with the Force Kick.

[Reboot]

Vaarsuvius forsook Conjuration and made it vir barred school, instead of what was previously V's second barred school, illusion, which explains why V hardly ever uses this school and is actually behind Elan as far as that school is concerned. Invisibility was also not cast until after the Linear Guild was dealt with the first time, so V could well have gained a level since #20. V does later say that he chose Conjuration as his barred school before "the rules of the universe have since been rewritten," but probably ve simply didn't check the rules in the 20 strips from the 3.5 update to vir's attack on Trigak. This explains the shift in V's alignment as well as why ve no longer uses Conjuration. It also gives us sort of a prelude to V's second (possible) alignment change with Familicide, which is from Necromancy, Conjuration's evil twin.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/so...Specialization
Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

[woweedd]

Yes, I realize this wasn't what the Giant intended. I was hoping he could adopt this as canon if he happened to notice the thread. Sometimes that sort of thing happens, it did with the Force Kick.

What's that?

[woweedd]

I think the problem we're running up against here is that we're talking about events that happened long before the Giant really had a good idea of what he was doing with this comic. Other than the vague "defeat the lich" goal, I don't think he had a story planned out or that the characters were any more fleshed out than just being basic archetypes to write jokes around. Roy is the beleaguered straight man, Haley is greedy, Elan is an idiot, Vaarsuvius is the stuck up intellectual, Durkon is a dwarf, and Belkar is a jerk.
It wasn't until later that the characters received deeper... um, depth.

We didn't even have "Defeat the lich" yet! The comic with Unholy Blight is #11 and Xykon is introduced 2 strips later. There was basically no plot at this point. The comic was pretty much a gag-a-day strip.