One Piece: Gear IV

[Razade]

Arlong park, he obliterated a BUILDING. That was his big finish. I mean sure it wasnt exactly a yurt, but it wasnt the mall of america either.

Sure, there's a difference between growing stronger as a character and Power Creep(tm) though. All there was around to destroy was that building.

In dress his big finish shattered probably a couple square miles, and that was just the backlash of his hit.

But it wasn't. It wasn't just a single punch. It was a huge battle both before the fight with Luffy and during Grear 4th. Look how devastated the whole city looks. Not just the parts outside the birdcage. The parts inside of it too.

And it wasn't just Luffy and Doffy's fight. The whole island was fighting. This isn't Luffy just tearing up pristine cities with a single punch. This is Luffy using literally his strongest move (Great Third combined with Gear 4th and Gear Second) smashing Doffy down into a city already cracking and breaking from the fight that went on it. Calling it just "one punch" is really underselling just how much the city was destroyed.

As for the crocodile match, I honestly cant remember how long it lasted or how far it ranged, are we talking smashing through building after building until the final blow, leaving several blocks devastated? Or was it a single hit?

Who cares if it was a single hit? It wasn't just a single hit that shattered the castle of Dressorsa.

Enies lobby I admit ive only seen parts of, didnt it get destroyed by the navy ships trying to blow them away, then they all jumped on the going merry or whichever ship it was that returned from the dead to save them?

Most decidedly not. If you want to count other people helping destroy a place against Luffy and as proof as evidence that there's some kind of power creep I think if you're being honest you have to count the fact that Dressorsa looked like this at the time Luffy destroyed the castle.

Zoro sure as heck never sliced living mountains to rubble pre timeskip. Yes previous bad guys managed to keep up to an extent, but there was also clearly power creep taking place.

There really wasn't any power creep taking place. Zoro cut through all sorts of zany things pre-time skip. It just destroyed his sword. Now that he can coat his swords in Haki he can cut through most anything. We already saw Mihawk demonstrate the same ability more than a decade ago.

[Traab]

Im talking about that last hit and the massive destruction it caused in dress. He punched flamingo into the ground so hard entire multiple blocks were flipped up on all sides. There are dozens of buildings on each chunk of land you see flipping in that clip I posted, arlong park was a single building that got collapsed on itself like a demo charge. It didnt even knock down the walls around it. You cant seriously compare This hit with this hit and claim there isnt clearly a massive difference in raw damage. When I talk about power creep, thats what I mean. We go from battles that can level a building, to battles that can almost level a city in a single shot. They arent just getting more skilled, they are getting more powerful too. In both scenes its clearly luffy fighting his absolute hardest, unleashing the most powerful single attack he has. Arlong park luffy would need a couple hours and several hundred of his attacks to equal the devastation caused by dressrosa luffy and his final all or nothing attack. Just going by the collateral damage gear 4 luffy is exponentially more powerful now than he was back then.

*EDIT* The enis shot you linked, he punched through the citadel. Again, thats not shattering multiple city blocks with a single shot. Its clearly more impressive than arlong park though, but that honestly proves my point. The raw power the characters have is growing larger and larger as the series goes on. Thats the very essence of power creep. Its how this type of anime WORKS. The main characters have their bad guys, they beat the bad guys, generally by unlocking a new level of power, then find a new set of even stronger bad guys they need to grow even stronger to beat. Ichigo didnt start out about to obliterate mountains by parrying a sword stroke, naruto wasnt able to beat up bijuu with casual ease after graduating from the academy, and luffy couldnt casually erase towns from existence with a single attack while fighting his first opponent. Protagonists grow stronger and stronger as the story progresses.

[Razade]

Im talking about that last hit and the massive destruction it caused in dress. He punched flamingo into the ground so hard entire multiple blocks were flipped up on all sides. There are dozens of buildings on each chunk of land you see flipping in that clip I posted, arlong park was a single building that got collapsed on itself like a demo charge. It didnt even knock down the walls around it. You cant seriously compare This hit with this hit and claim there isnt clearly a massive difference in raw damage.

I'm pointing out that you picking one hit in a fight that (in the anime...which the anime is garbage...) takes almost an hour of screen time. That's...absurd. That's ignoring so much of what actually went on. And yes I can compare. I can point out how despite Luffy destroying more and more stuff with each successive arc demonstrates that it's not power creep. Because...

When I talk about power creep, thats what I mean. We go from battles that can level a building, to battles that can almost level a city in a single shot. They arent just getting more skilled, they are getting more powerful too. In both scenes its clearly luffy fighting his absolute hardest, unleashing the most powerful single attack he has. Arlong park luffy would need a couple hours and several hundred of his attacks to equal the devastation caused by dressrosa luffy and his final all or nothing attack. Just going by the collateral damage gear 4 luffy is exponentially more powerful now than he was back then.

...that's not power creep. That's just story progression. That's a character's abilities and powers evolving with the narrative. Power creep is when those things evolve and everything beneath them does. It'd be power creep if say...Buggy didn't consistently prove he's on a level equal to Luffy every time he shows up.

*EDIT* The enis shot you linked, he punched through the citadel. Again, thats not shattering multiple city blocks with a single shot.

As I've pointed out. Luffy isn't destroying city blocks in a single shot. They're badly broken and damaged areas that are getting more damaged and broken. Is it a wider area than Luffy's done before? Yes. It's just not one shot. That's just not looking at the reality of situation.

Its clearly more impressive than arlong park though, but that honestly proves my point. The raw power the characters have is growing larger and larger as the series goes on. Thats the very essence of power creep.

No that isn't. It would be, and you'd be correct if, everyone else around Luffy from every previous arc didn't power up as well. Or at least a select number (the number of which is fairly high). Power creep isn't a character getting more powerful. That's just progression. Power creep is when everything under a new updated power is introduced is significantly weaker for it.

Its how this type of anime WORKS. The main characters have their bad guys, they beat the bad guys, generally by unlocking a new level of power, then find a new set of even stronger bad guys they need to grow even stronger to beat.

That's how...fiction works. Is it power creep when the heroes in a comic book can't beat a baddie without finding a way to beat them after they lose the first time? No. That's not power creep. That's story progression. They're not the same thing.

Ichigo didnt start out about to obliterate mountains by parrying a sword stroke, naruto wasnt able to beat up bijuu with casual ease after graduating from the academy, and luffy couldnt casually erase towns from existence with a single attack while fighting his first opponent. Protagonists grow stronger and stronger as the story progresses.

Yeah. Which isn't power creep. You're conflating the two. Stop that. Bad Traab. Stop making false equivalencies and conflations.

[Sigh]

Both of you are wrong for different reasons.

@Razade, you can't sit there and tell me that if Luffy did his King Kong Gun, sending someone like Doffy flying the way he did in that scene without it having been destroyed already beforehand that it wouldn't have caused just as much damage as you see it doing there. Keep in mind that the section of the Birdcage that Luffy threw him into had not yet actually been destroyed as the Birdcage was still up, so when he went flying and shot up sections of the city because of that it was into parts of the city that had not yet been destroyed.

@Traab, you're using the term "power creep" incorrectly, as the original meaning is used almost exclusively with regards to video games and the way that certain powers, cards, or w/e introduced later on completely invalidate previously implemented abilities for much less cost. When translated to anime you'll find that One Piece does not necessarily suffer from this as certain techniques, attacks, and combos are all still very effective against lower tier enemies, and thus are not made irrelevant. They are, however, much less effective at newer, more powerful enemies, so the protagonists must find new or creative ways (usually by at least partially implementing old techniques) to defeat these opponents.

If you want an actual example of Power Creep in anime look no further than the OG shonen, Dragon Ball Z. Literally no enemies are brought before our heroes unless they completely invalidate the strengths of our heroes up to that point, thus prompting some kind of crazy training sequence for them until they can beat the new baddie.

[Traab]

Ugh ok so I used the wrong word, it doesnt invalidate what was my original point though, in that if luffy gets awakening and starts turning everything around him into rubber like doffy did strings, it might help lessen the overall destruction created when he gets into fights as its clearly ramping up to incredible levels. That was the only point I was trying to make, that luffy is destroying more and more with each fight as he gets stronger and at this rate by the time he fights mr magma he will be destroying entire islands. You know, unless he can temporarily turn them into resilient rubber.

[Cizak]

It'd be power creep if say...Buggy didn't consistently prove he's on a level equal to Luffy every time he shows up.

I think this is the most insane statement in this discussion. Buggy is most certainly not equal to Luffy in any way. The only time he was ever relevant as a serious antagonist was in his initial arc. When he meets Luffy at Impel Down, he consistantly soils himself over what Luffy is capable of. He's a Warlord now because of his followers (who follow him because they are idiots), not because of his power.

[Gray Mage]

Does anyone have an idea for the next thread's title? I've thought about something to do with the present arc and a GoT reference, something like One Piece V: Black Wedding.

[LaZodiac]

Does anyone have an idea for the next thread's title? I've thought about something to do with the present arc and a GoT reference, something like One Piece V: Black Wedding.

Black Leg Wedding would work well, yeah.

[Kato]

Does anyone have an idea for the next thread's title? I've thought about something to do with the present arc and a GoT reference, something like One Piece V: Black Wedding.

I don't think it's bad but I feel we had something better not too long ago... but I forgot what, or maybe I'm wrong. I always have a soft spot for titles that incorporate the number well but... V? "V like Vedding?"


re previous discussion:
I actually just now checked and realised what power creep means. Which is totally different from what I always associated with the term.
I can quite clearly say (so far) there was hardly any power creep (by tv tropes definition) in One Piece. Yes, people got stronger but that is very much a different thing, as I think we've established by now. Powers HAVE clearly grown. While OP characters are just naturally powerful, especially the monsters, damage has certainly grown and will continue to grow. IIRC Ace and Blackbeard engulfed an island in flame and darkness in their fight. So island busting levels are at least existent...and Marineford was close to that. So somehow I guess Luffy will get to that point, too. While he's not there yet, we've seen some crazy things from him and others (i.e. Zoro), things they could not do pre-timeskip. (Though, they clearly destroyed buildings back then already)

When Luffy starts spamming Gear 4th, then we start the power creep as per definition...

More generally, I feel few Shonen are (very) guilty of power creep, going by that definition. Goku abandoned the Kaioken when it got useless and Naruto improved his Rasengan over time, including learning to ignore the negative impact of his wind rasengan. I can't talk about Bleach but FT at least... well, because the rules for magic were always so unclear it's hard to talk about costs of attacks, so... yeah.

[Gray Mage]

Black Leg Wedding would work well, yeah.

Black Leg Wedding does fit better.

About names incorporating V maybe something with Vinsmoke? But I'm still voting for Black Leg Wedding.

[lord_khaine]

My suggestion is One Piece:5 Luffy's in a wedding cake.

[Razade]

Both of you are wrong for different reasons.

@Razade, you can't sit there and tell me that if Luffy did his King Kong Gun, sending someone like Doffy flying the way he did in that scene without it having been destroyed already beforehand that it wouldn't have caused just as much damage as you see it doing there. Keep in mind that the section of the Birdcage that Luffy threw him into had not yet actually been destroyed as the Birdcage was still up, so when he went flying and shot up sections of the city because of that it was into parts of the city that had not yet been destroyed.

Except I said they weren't destroyed by the bird cage. They were destroyed in the fighting that took place before and after the birdcage went up. Actually look at the links I put up and you'll see that the whole place is devastated with buildings and rubble everywhere. I'm also not saying that Luffy didn't destroy (further destroy) a section of the city. That would be absurd. I'm also not saying that it isn't a clear progression of power from before. I am saying all of that in fact.

I think this is the most insane statement in this discussion. Buggy is most certainly not equal to Luffy in any way. The only time he was ever relevant as a serious antagonist was in his initial arc. When he meets Luffy at Impel Down, he consistantly soils himself over what Luffy is capable of. He's a Warlord now because of his followers (who follow him because they are idiots), not because of his power.

Yeah no, being equal doesn't mean he's as powerful in a fight as Luffy. One Piece isn't about raw strength. Buggy held his own during the escape of Impel Down. He survived the War at Marineford and came out a massive power even before Dressorsa was destroyed when he became the new head of the Underworld. Buggy isn't a powerful fighter. But that doesn't mean he's not on a standing with Luffy. He is. He just demonstrably is.

[Kato]

Black Leg Wedding does fit better.

About names incorporating V maybe something with Vinsmoke? But I'm still voting for Black Leg Wedding.

Hm... I guess I can live with that


So, really, nobody cares about the new chapter?

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Mom is... a weird kind of human and got effing abandoned by her parents when she was a kid. Poor girl. But then she's... what? So powerful with her haki she can destroy countries? At least unwillingly knock out dozens of people.
And Elba... seriously, I hate to discuss power levels but... how strong are our Giants supposed to be? It seems like high tier world wide but back in Little Garden they were... well, strong but not... strong. What gives, Oda?

I guess we'll get another two or three weeks until we're done with Mom's backstory...?

[Forrestfire]

Spoiler: New Chapter

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Back at the end of Little Garden, the giants did do that trick where they blasted a gigantic hole right through the sea monster through wind pressure alone. Seems pretty strong to me.

[LaZodiac]

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It's not that the giants aren't strong, it's that Lin Lin is ridiculous. I feel bad for her, because I do think with then proper touch she cooould be taught to be a better person, but Mother Caramel wasn't able to manage it because she was TOO innocent.

[Kato]

My complaint wasn't regarding the giants' strength compared to Lin but towards the others back in the days. I guess they did show some impressive feats but they were kind of almost taken down by four Baroque agents. I mean, not in a fair fight but still. I imagine they must have been way stronger to be their captains... No?

[LaZodiac]

My complaint wasn't regarding the giants' strength compared to Lin but towards the others back in the days. I guess they did show some impressive feats but they were kind of almost taken down by four Baroque agents. I mean, not in a fair fight but still. I imagine they must have been way stronger to be their captains... No?

Oh, those guys. They've been fighting each other for years, resting on the island and occasionally getting back to fightin', that's a drain on your power.

[Traab]

Question about zoro. When he is fighting pica he has some sort of, im assuming, focusing chant he does, "the nine mountains and the eight seas" and so forth. Does that mean something thats lost in translation to english? Or is it just a badass phrase he works with to unleash his biggest slices?

[Razade]

It's just a phrase. There are only six seas in the One Piece world. North, South, East, and West Blue, Paradise and The New World.

[LaZodiac]

Question about zoro. When he is fighting pica he has some sort of, im assuming, focusing chant he does, "the nine mountains and the eight seas" and so forth. Does that mean something thats lost in translation to english? Or is it just a badass phrase he works with to unleash his biggest slices?

Kusen-Hakkai. The mountains and seas that constitute the world, according to ancient Indian cosmology. The nine mountains are Mount Sumeru at the center of the world and eight concentric mountain ranges that surround it. Eight concentric seas separate these mountain ranges. According to The Dharma Analysis Treasury, the eight circular mountain ranges are, from the innermost out, Yugamdhara, Īshādhāra, Khadiraka, Sudarshana, Ashvakarna, Vinataka, Nimimdhara, and Chakravāda-parvata. All these mountain ranges are made of gold except the outermost, Chakravāda-parvata, also known as the Iron Encircling Mountains, which is made of iron. Mount Sumeru and the eight mountain ranges are each separated from one another by a sea. The distance between Mount Sumeru and Mount Yugamdhara is eighty thousand yojanas. The inner seven seas are of fresh water, while the outermost sea, just inside the iron mountain range, is salty. In this sea are four continents—Pūrvavideha in the east, Jambudvīpa in the south, Aparagodānīya in the west, and Uttarakuru in the north.

So in other words it's a buddhist thing. Rise up over the nine mountains and eight seas, become godlike. Etc etc.

[Cizak]

He had a buddhist "meaning" behind his 360 Pound Cannon too, right? Something about 360 desires to overcome or something?

[Traab]

Kusen-Hakkai. The mountains and seas that constitute the world, according to ancient Indian cosmology. The nine mountains are Mount Sumeru at the center of the world and eight concentric mountain ranges that surround it. Eight concentric seas separate these mountain ranges. According to The Dharma Analysis Treasury, the eight circular mountain ranges are, from the innermost out, Yugamdhara, Īshādhāra, Khadiraka, Sudarshana, Ashvakarna, Vinataka, Nimimdhara, and Chakravāda-parvata. All these mountain ranges are made of gold except the outermost, Chakravāda-parvata, also known as the Iron Encircling Mountains, which is made of iron. Mount Sumeru and the eight mountain ranges are each separated from one another by a sea. The distance between Mount Sumeru and Mount Yugamdhara is eighty thousand yojanas. The inner seven seas are of fresh water, while the outermost sea, just inside the iron mountain range, is salty. In this sea are four continents—Pūrvavideha in the east, Jambudvīpa in the south, Aparagodānīya in the west, and Uttarakuru in the north.

So in other words it's a buddhist thing. Rise up over the nine mountains and eight seas, become godlike. Etc etc.

Ah sweet, thanks. I figured it almost had to have a deeper meaning to it.

[LaZodiac]

He had a buddhist "meaning" behind his 360 Pound Cannon too, right? Something about 360 desires to overcome or something?

Yeah. 360 Pound Ho, written with the kanji for phoenix/cannon, with an attached kanji to make it clear Phoenix is the intent, and with pondo as a skewed way of spelling "bonno" which is the word for Klesha, which is a term that means "the desires of evil intent". So it's 360 Phoenix Sins if you want to translate it as literally as possible, or 360 Pound/Calibur (your choice) Phoenix Cannon if you want to transliterate the joke as easily as possible. I'd go with calibur to make it more clear, if I wanted to get across the pun more.

EDIT: Also it's 36 not 360 oooops. And that's with one sword. His other sword styles raise it to 72 and then 108, and then combined with his buddies it's 217 (called 300) and 600. 108 is the "best" one since 108 is the buddha number.

[Gray Mage]

New chapter:

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And oh boy, was that dark.
Did... did Big Mom actually eat Mother Caramel and the other kids? I mean,we have seen some terrible stuff in OP, but nothing on this scale. And she was 6!

And Mother Caramel was the previous holder of Big Mom's Devil Fruit.

[Spacewolf]

New chapter:

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And oh boy, was that dark.
Did... did Big Mom actually eat Mother Caramel and the other kids? I mean,we have seen some terrible stuff in OP, but nothing on this scale. And she was 6!

And Mother Caramel was the previous holder of Big Mom's Devil Fruit.

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Yea that was pretty dark, Caramel turns out to be a slaver, Big mom eats her family. Yea not much else to say really.

[LaZodiac]

New chapter:

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And oh boy, was that dark.
Did... did Big Mom actually eat Mother Caramel and the other kids? I mean,we have seen some terrible stuff in OP, but nothing on this scale. And she was 6!

And Mother Caramel was the previous holder of Big Mom's Devil Fruit.

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I don't think she ate them, I think. Judging from the art, the Marines came by to capture her and her "product".

And yes, Mother Caramel had the soul fruit! Fascinating.

[Gray Mage]

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I don't think she ate them, I think. Judging from the art, the Marines came by to capture her and her "product".

And yes, Mother Caramel had the soul fruit! Fascinating.

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Some of the logs they were using as benches have bite marks...
Also, we know the Mother Caramel has to die in order for Big Mom to get her devil fruit and it seems like Big Mom never saw her again. She could have died then...

It looks like we're back to the present though, so that might remain uncertain for a while.

Edit: Someone on reddit pointed out that the hills on the new Lamb's house look a lot like the hills on New Cake Island. Maybe that's why Big Mom's base is located where it is.

[Kato]

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Ah, so it wasn't that ambiguous... I guess the obvious answer is she ate them... but maybe the marines did show up and she went into some rage? But I feel like then there'd need to be some more signs of a fight? Because honestly, as monstrous as Linlin might be, I don't see her doing that just because she's distracted. But then she has her dark side... I don't know!
But we know why there are no Giants among her family.

I'm not sure how I feel about the Mother Slaver reveal... what does it add? Assuming she really just died there, what could be different if Oda'd stuck to her being good? Just to make her a monster because...? Well, monster might be a bit much... in all fairness, she got her kids a good job with the marines. They might not be the best people but they treat their own well, no? As long as you have a decent CO. Thinking about it, it's hard to really consider her that bad a person, even if we're meant to...

Finally: So you can get DF powers by cannibalism... Watch out, Wapol?

[lord_khaine]

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Well.. she did mention how she accidentially chomped down on the table as well, she did register that, so i kinda find it unlikely she could not register also eating all her friends.
for that matter there should also be at least some blood.
I find it more likely this has relation to Mother Caramels last great deal.

That aside we also need to get consensus for a new thread title fast.

So i suggest

One Piece:Thread 5, title pending

We can then discuss an actual title in the new thread. Its a name thats going to stick for a while. So i think we should get a good one.

[LaZodiac]

Black Leg Wedding should be the next title.