[Dreamscarred Press] Announcing: Airships

[pawsplay]

Sorry, my pagination may be off. I forgot there are small differences with the Drive version. It's the first sentence of Siege Weapons for Airships.

[stack]

So a cannon, which a large character (or a medium one with powerful build), can fire form the shoulder, takes up 8 tons of space? Is this including space for the weapon crew and such? If it is, it really should vary more from weapon to weapon, as a light ballista (1 crew) and a razer launcher (5 crew) occupy the same tonnage. If it is just the weapon and operator, then 8 seems punitively high, denying even basic weapons to small airships (the lower half of the huge category).

[ghanjrho]

So a cannon, which a large character (or a medium one with powerful build), can fire form the shoulder, takes up 8 tons of space? Is this including space for the weapon crew and such? If it is, it really should vary more from weapon to weapon, as a light ballista (1 crew) and a razer launcher (5 crew) occupy the same tonnage. If it is just the weapon and operator, then 8 seems punitively high, denying even basic weapons to small airships (the lower half of the huge category).

Remember that each airship-ton is a 5'x5'x5' cube. So 8 tons is a 10'x10'x10' cube, which hardly seems unreasonable.

[stack]

It also adds up vary quickly. I am no expert in matters nautical, but I doubt a ship of the line gave an entire ten foot cube to every gun.

[Kaidinah]

I am going to give you disclosure. I already put $100 into Skybourne’s kickstarter, so I probably am not going to buy this book since their book is built with their campaign setting in mind. That won’t stop me from giving you my 100% truthful feedback. I read your whole playtest document, and this is what I think:

A lot of this book feels a little too much like a simulation to me. There are a lot of rules for a lot of things, and I think that some sections probably aren’t needed. The system feels more complicated than Rogue Trader’s space ship combat system.
The 500 foot height limit goes against many of the common perceptions of airships, from early Final Fantasy games, to the more recent Girl Genius webcomic. There should probably be a section somewhere that changes this rule based on the setting, just like how airship prices should change with setting.

Airship weapons also deal low damage. The strongest one deals 36 damage on an average role. A 24 ton wooden ship has 360 hp and 5 hardness. I can say from personal experience that this is not fun. Ship combat from Paizo’s Skulls and Shackles was played with the vehicle rules. Plinking away at a ship for 20 turns was never fun. Eventually, our group decided to ditch all ranged combat, and force boarding as early as possible to make this element of the game disappear. We weren’t happy getting a cannon because it still did no damage.

For geographical navigation, I noticed that knowledge (geography) was not included. I believe it would make sense as a good 3rd option. In fact, it feels like it applies to most rolls located in the Geographical Navigation section. Same with overland navigation and celestial navigation. Knowledge (Geography) specifically states that it covers astronomy too. Actually, as I read I realize Knowledge (Geography) could be used in many other sections as a third possible skill to roll.

Speaking of skills, having 4 different Profession (Airship X) doesn’t feel right. I think Profession (Air Sailor) could replace pilot and navigator with no complaints. Profession (Sailor) does almost everything in sea ship stuff.

I love the section that explains the different kinds of crewman and officers. This is really useful for most people who will use the book.

Archetypes are very cool! I especially like the Wind Singer, but I think its Air Shanty should get some kind of clause such as “He can extend this duration to 1 hour by playing for 5 consecutive rounds.” Also his bonus to knowledge (geography) would be much more useful if the above suggested changes are made to navigation.

Airship subdomain is simple, but it is exactly what it needed to be.

I think I recognize some of the “new rogue talents” from some Paizo books. Did you mean to say recommended?

The Aerial Saboteur is quite cool! Though I think you should be more liberal with its class features. For instance, its bomb class feature should probably have scaling uses equal to their level + intelligence modifier, and have its damage dice stack with any damage dice gotten from alchemist levels. Currently, their Mayhem stacks with any sneak attack dice from previous rogue levels, but alchemist bombs are kind of hosed. Currently, an alchemist gives up a lot to take this archetype, so throwing them a bone here shouldn’t be a problem. Also, a good fortitude save wouldn’t hurt. I would reduce the disable device prerequisite to 5, so that the class can be enjoyed for a good portion of the campaign instead of the very end.

The Ship Mage requires you to take Arcane Strike, so I think some text that lets it count its entire Ship Mage level towards its caster level for arcane strike is warranted, considering how many spell levels are lost. Also its capstone is very strong, but entirely defensive. It might never get to see use in some games, and people might leave the class past level 9 for it.

I can’t help but feel that Sky Slayer has really really steep feat requirements. Deadly Aim, Power Attack, and Vital Strike all for one prestige class? Vital strike also pushes the minimum level up since it’s basically a 7th level feat. I don’t know if this steps outside your bounds, but I think the Sky Slayer could be a very cool initiating prestige class, bridging this project to another DSP product.

The traits all seem solid. While usually adding more than a trait normally adds, their bonuses are far more situational. Good design calls here.

The spells, such as Earthen Conversion, Storm Prow, and Call Thermal are all very cool. I love the spell support.

Magic items are very cool, with Kestrel being an invaluable enchantment to any archer.

Gotta love that appendix! Perfect for learning all the terminology, and perfect for scanning and printing out one for all your players.

[pawsplay]

I have concerns about "plinking" as well. However, those damage values come from UC, and at the end of the day, a cannon is a cannon. The critical slot system is intended, in part, to mitigate this problem.

I spent a lot of effort on integrating the Aerial Saboteur's bomb ability. My concern was properly scaling the ability for non-alchemists. However, letting mayhem add to alchemist bombs is a straightforward change. I'll look at that some more.

Thanks for the in-depth analysis!

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I think its a nice balance. On the one hand, I wouldn't expect airship battles to be as short as on-foot battles, but on the other hand, it makes the actual attrition of battle exciting. Might I suggest some variety of item or spell that allows someone to teleport back to a ship, even if its in motion? Unless its line-of-sight, normal teleportation spells don't work since the ship is in motion.

On a sillier aside, an expensive ship addon could be something like Star Trek's transporters that work on a similar function. Maybe they can't teleport to another ship with the same addon because of conflicting energies? At the costs you're dealing with, a teleport trap is practically a drop in the bucket.

Also, where can I find how many passengers/how much cargo a ship can carry?

[Kaidinah]

As someone who has played a few ship battles with Paizo vehicles larger than 25 tons (Sailing ships had something like 900 hitpoints and 5 hardness), there is no excitement in the attrition. Waiting for your ships to slowly whittle away at eachother's HP is not fun. Keeping in mind that cannons are expensive, and that there is limited weapon space on ships, you really will take upwards of 20 to 30 rounds for anything meaningful to happen.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I meant attrition from the critical slots. And if cannons are expensive, just fill out the weapons with ballistae. Keep in mind prices of siege firearms/other equipment may go down depending on what rules for firearms are for the world. For example, with Commonplace Guns they are 25%, and an explosive satchel would be 250 gp. 25 gp if its made by someone with gunsmithing.

[pawsplay]

Also, where can I find how many passengers/how much cargo a ship can carry?

Under Space Needed by the Crew and Officers, you have a range from 1 to 16 tons, and passengers "get what they pay for." I could whip up a table menu if that would be helpful. You can figure on about 1 ton for steerage, 2 tons for a bunk, 4 tons for a private room, 8 tons for fine traveling conditions.

The section on Trade gives cash value per ton for a wide variety of goods. You can squeeze cargo into any unused below-deck space, at about 500 lbs. of weight per airship ton. There aren't specific rules for carrying very heavy freight, something that I should perhaps address. If you overload an airship with something heavy, the extra weight would probably amount to an extra airship ton per ton occupied.

[stack]

Alpha spreadsheet here. Haven't checked all the functionality after the move to google and almost certainly needs fixes, but I'm tired of working on it at the moment and want to see people use it.

[ghanjrho]

Alpha spreadsheet here. Haven't checked all the functionality after the move to google and almost certainly needs fixes, but I'm tired of working on it at the moment and want to see people use it.

Are you sure you enable use? It's only letting me comment.

[stack]

I figured people would save a copy and use it. I didn't want to have people accidentally break a formula for everyone. This way you can make a copy for each ship you want to build. I should have clarified that.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The reference to Spain's gold rush in the Trade is amusing, since I believe the very same crashed their economy.

So let me get this straight: Cargo space is (Total ship tonnage) - (crew cabin space, weapon space, etc)?

[Tvtyrant]

Alpha spreadsheet here. Haven't checked all the functionality after the move to google and almost certainly needs fixes, but I'm tired of working on it at the moment and want to see people use it.

It seems to break if tonnage goes up to 1,000. The size seems to become something other than colossal, which the cost cannot register.

[stack]

I believe that is the max for 'normal' ships, so I haven't accounted for higher yet. Thought about how, then never got back to it. I'll try to fix it when I get a chance, thanks for the catch.

[pawsplay]

Wow! The feedback we have received has been tremendous. Thank you for taking the time to read the material. We will be using your valuable comments as a guide as we revise the rules. Perhaps more importantly, we have a better idea of where we want to go with expanding campaign options.

This concludes this phase of the open playtest. If you want to offer any final additional comments, please do so. We now enter another round of development. I'll pop up later in the year with more news.

Thank you all so much! Salud,
- RJ

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I did another big readthrough of the document, and I know the playtest is over, but I think I found some points I would like to say:

1) airships are amazing The prices are actually alright in most cases; expensive yes, but not ridiculous. Instead of a near-global reduction, though, the only thing I think needs slashing are the engine prices. Also, raising the flight celieng, and some more clarification on that (do they go down when flying at max height and hitting a valley? Are mountains just slightly more dangerous speedbumps?)

2) Alternative methods of piloting/crew. At the very least, I think a mention should be made of alternative methods to both piloting or crew requirements. Yeah, a wizard could hire crew... or he could invent a spell to consolidate need for crew. Mass Unseen Servant or similar? Also, some more support for more spell lists for the spells would be interesting.

3) Well, actually, these are just some cool ideas I had. Ideas for more hazards that would deal with airships: a section for GMs on encounters involving airships that aren't just bad weather or pirates, stuff like flying monsters, haunted ships, intelligent ships... I would really really like ye olde HAL 9000. Maybe some offense-oriented spells; a spell that lets you vampirize another ship's power factors, or other some unique form of battlefield control.

Some things I definitely want to try out: a sloop of war that is build for speed and manueverability before size

[Milo v3]

I hope that Engines don't get forgotten by DSP. I mean, if you have a magic power source, why limit it to only one type of device.